Big Brother Probably Used Deep Packet Inspection But then again, Big Brother probably used lawnmowers, too... Friday Apr 24 2009 14:48 EDT Deep packet inspection (DPI) has many legitimate uses on an ISP network, but has gained notoriety in recent years for its use in delivering behavioral ads, injecting ISP javascript banners into websites, and identifying (and ultimately filtering or throttling) P2P traffic. Like most technology DPI isn't inherently bad, but the way it can be used and mis-used by carriers to make a buck certainly may be. Evolution in DPI technology has ISPs not only buying and selling your online habits, but hardware vendors push the technology as a new Internet policing solution, placing the onus on ISPs to someday compare every packet a user sends to a master database of what's legal or moral. The negative uses of DPI have led to hearings this week in Washington exploring how broadband ISPs use the technology, and whether stronger privacy guidelines are needed. While Congress frequently likes to talk about passing laws requiring that such systems be purely "opt in" for consumers, the collective lobbying muscle of both the telecom and marketing/advertising industries continually ensures this doesn't happen. In order to prevent such laws from passing, carriers like AT&T and Verizon are trying to push for a self-regulatory system whereby "public shame" would keep them honest about privacy violations. Hopefully the Ministry Of Truth and Thought Police can sort this whole thing out. |
DarkLogixTexan and Proud Premium Member join:2008-10-23 Baytown, TX |
Not more 1985Emanuel Goldstein will save us | |
| tubbynetreminds me of the danse russe MVM join:2008-01-16 Gilbert, AZ |
public shame...?While Congress frequently likes to talk about passing laws requiring that such systems be purely "opt in" for consumers, the collective lobbying muscle of both the telecom and marketing/advertising industries continually ensures this doesn't happen. In order to prevent such laws from passing, carriers like AT&T and Verizon are trying to push for a self-regulatory system whereby "public shame" would keep them honest about privacy violations.
"public shame" only works for those who have souls. should read: self-regulatory system whereby "public shame" subscriber loss and lower shareholder returns would keep them honest about privacy violations.
q. | |
| | DarkLogixTexan and Proud Premium Member join:2008-10-23 Baytown, TX |
Re: public shame...?ya those soulless Lobbiest | |
| | swhx7 Premium Member join:2006-07-23 Elbonia
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to tubbynet
The only reason any industry ever tries to offer "self-regulation" is to preserve the power to do what the legislators propose to forbid.
The argument that a law is "unnecessary" because the proposed targets are supposedly going to behave is obviously illogical. If they aren't going to do X, then they won't be affected by a prohibition of X. If they object to a prohibition of X, it can only be because they want to do X.
BTW, the likes of Phorm and Nebu-ad - which offer ISPs a share of profits if the ISPs let the companies spy on the ISP's customers and sell targeted advertising - these companies' business model features not only wiretapping, but forgery as well - they actually tamper with data on its way to or from the web users.
Making such conduct subject to fines is not enough - it should be a felony. | |
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No to ESPN
Anon
2009-Apr-24 3:11 pm
Ministry Of Truth and Thought PoliceDoesn't Santa Claus work for them? | |
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Re: Ministry Of Truth and Thought Policesaid by No to ESPN :
Doesn't Santa Claus work for them? Easter bunny too | |
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Another anti-ISP article from Mr. BodeOf course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. | |
| | DarkLogixTexan and Proud Premium Member join:2008-10-23 Baytown, TX |
Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodeyou must be an enemy of the brotherhood and Mr. Goldstein | |
| | tubbynetreminds me of the danse russe MVM join:2008-01-16 Gilbert, AZ 1 edit |
to SuperWISP
said by SuperWISP:Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. of course, you are *blatantly* ignoring the fact that many isps have tried to do this (sell browsing history for money) already - british isp bt comes to mind. of course, you only see what you want to see and have completely missed the first clause of the first sentence of the article posted Deep packet inspection (DPI) has many legitimate uses on an ISP network
q. | |
| | Anonymous_Anonymous Premium Member join:2004-06-21 127.0.0.1 |
to SuperWISP
said by SuperWISP:Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. soon DPI will be useless by using strong encryption | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by Anonymous_:said by SuperWISP:Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. soon DPI will be useless by using strong encryption ISP to customer: "Why was every single one of your packets encrypted?" Customer to ISP: "None of your damn business! *happy face*" | |
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to SuperWISP
said by SuperWISP:Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. And your implication that there is nothing wrong with DPI is the polar opposite. Quality of service? Joke! Sounds to me like you're in favor of revenue stream at any cost. In the same category of Ma Bell's "reach out and touch someone." And you know where that brought us, don't you? The incessant mosquito whine of telemarketers, among others. Futile slap against bloodsuckers only yields 1 in 10 gone splat. Who thinks telemarketers add to the quality of phone service? « crickets » Anyone? « crickets » DPI is in the same category. Claiming it's needed for network management, while masking the real reasons ISPs are wetting their pants to put it in place. Nothing good will come from DPI. | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by SuperWISP:"birdfeedr," it sounds as if your name should really be "bird brain." Well, I guess that sets the tone for discourse from you. I apologize for whatever I said to merit that response. I thought I made a couple of valid points. Maybe with a little flair, but valid nonetheless. said by SuperWISP:Go ahead: go to an ISP that doesn't understand how to monitor its network. You'll get what you deserve: poor service. I'm noting your use of "monitor". That's a major part of arguments against DPI. I accept, as does Karl, that there may be a positive use for DPI. Let's call it "management". So far, DPI management is innocuous until it is used to deny subscribers use of the system as it is marketed. I am not arguing for or against caps or throttling. That's a different issue. If an ISP plans on using DPI, and can assure it's subscribers how it will be used, and for what purpose, and can assure it will not be used for as-yet unspecified purposes, maybe i can make an informed decision. But, answer me this, why is it that the major ISPs already have in place language in their TOS that says they may use traffic for third-party use? Trust me, management is the code word justification for the real desire. Revenue stream. | |
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to Anon
You don't need to know anything about the user data in packets to effectively monitor and manage any network.
Of course, when you resort to personal attacks on those who disagree with you, you obviously must be clueless to begin with... so, you're what? 8? | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode"My computer says it can't find thisparticulardomain.com."
"I'm trying to reach this Web site, but all I'm getting is a blank page."
"My computer is acting funny. Does it have a Trojan horse program in it that's sending out spam or something?"
"Is my computer infected with the Slammer worm?"
"Tech support? My connection is slow. Is my son running that illegal nut-teller program again?"
...
"Sorry, but we can't help you. Congress outlawed the basic network administration tools that would allow us to look at network traffic in detail and tell you." | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by SuperWISP:1. "My computer says it can't find thisparticulardomain.com." 2. "I'm trying to reach this Web site, but all I'm getting is a blank page." 3. "My computer is acting funny. Does it have a Trojan horse program in it that's sending out spam or something?" 4. "Is my computer infected with the Slammer worm?" 5. "Tech support? My connection is slow. Is my son running that illegal nut-teller program again?" ... 6. "Sorry, but we can't help you. Congress outlawed the basic network administration tools that would allow us to look at network traffic in detail and tell you." 1. Reboot your modem/router then try again. 2. Reboot your computer then try again. 3. Call our premium support helpline for $19.95 per incident. 4. Call our premium support helpline for $19.95 per incident. 5. Our system shows you are getting the bandwidth you are provisioned for. Service is "up to x/y mbps." Reboot your computer and try again. 6. In order to answer your questions, we can run some system tools that will look at all the data that's crossing your modem. It might show some sensitive data such as passwords and accounts. Will you authorize us to use these tools to diagnose your connection? You may terminate the diagnostic sesion at any time. We cannot initiate it without your permission. SuperWISP. I get your point. I've never invalidated your point of view. Sometimes it is possible to solve network problems by looking closely atthe packets. I've worked with CommView and Wireshark to analyse and solve problems. 1 to 5 are typical tech support at the level 1. If you get past that level, something like 6 becomes operative. I've called for tech support, and this is real world experience. You're talking about tech support. Karl's article, plus the referenced WSJ article are talking about something else entirely. quote: The negative uses of DPI have led to hearings this week in Washington exploring how broadband ISPs use the technology, and whether stronger privacy guidelines are needed.
quote: The focus of the hearing was on new efforts by Internet providers to collect and share data on consumers' behavior to target online advertising and by cable companies to target ads at subscribers via their set-top boxes.
Are you sure you understand what I am talking about? We're not on the same page, and there's no requirement to do so. But man, I don't think we're in the same library. If ya know what I mean. | |
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KrK
Premium Member
2009-Apr-24 10:17 pm
Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by birdfeedr:But man, I don't think we're in the same library. If ya know what I mean. I think he's in the library of "Make $$$$$ FAST!" as in "I run an ISP and I should be able to make money (by hook or by crook) anyway I see fit and nobody should be allowed to stop me." | |
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to SuperWISP
Really? Because I have diagnosed and repaired those same type problems 40+ hours every week for the last 17 years and never once did I have to use DPI to do it. | |
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to SuperWISP
said by SuperWISP:Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. That will be the day I see elephants flying incredibly fast through my window. You do not have to be cynical to see reality. Next you are going to say the ISP was spoofing packets to ensure my safety too. | |
| | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2 Zoom 5341J
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to SuperWISP
Oh give me a break. Again? Anti-ISP? This is getting to be a pattern for you, defend shameful/illegal practices and claim it's all bias. What you are effectively saying is Karl should just "shut up" and not report such transgressions. Are you just jealous and wish you could mistreat your customers this badly too? | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. BodeYes, that is my honest opinion: Karl is consistently anti-ISP. And I am not the only one who thinks this. In a topic I opened on the subject (which Karl locked immediately when he saw it), the majority of those posting agreed. Some went as far as to call his writing "yellow journalism." And I received even more responses offline via e-mail, saying that they agreed with me and were glad that I was daring enough to say it publicly.
Balanced journalism is important, and I think that DSL Reports should have more balanced coverage. Since Karl consistently beats on ISPs, there should be (IMHO) at least one other writer who has actual experience delivering broadband and doesn't take such a negative stance. Just my 2 cents. | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. BodeMr. Bode was referencing an article from the Wall Street Journal, hardly a left-wing paper. » online.wsj.com/article/S ··· 681.htmlIs it possible that you are as biased in one direction as you claim Mr. Bode to be in the other? | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. BodeAmy Schatz' WSJ article was not biased. But Karl's coverage of so-called "deep packet inspection" (which is a misnomer in several ways: packets have no "depth" and no human being is "inspecting" them), IMHO, is. | |
| | | | | | tubbynetreminds me of the danse russe MVM join:2008-01-16 Gilbert, AZ
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by SuperWISP:"deep packet inspection" (which is a misnomer in several ways: packets have no "depth" and no human being is "inspecting" them) using semantics to deflect the argument is a worthless ploy. you could complain about the legitimacy of the "broadband" industry, when broadband is used erroneously as we are not looking at the frequency spectrum as an indicator of transfer speed. regardless, you know as well as i do (or perhaps you don't, in which case you are seriously under-qualified), that "dpi" is being used to represent wirespeed datagram inspection. the "deep packet" part is referring to the fact that the layer-2 information is removed as well as the layer-3 header, footer, and crc. from here, the actual "payload" of the packet is analyzed; it is this payload that contains layer-4 protocol/port information, layer-5 session information, as well as layer-7 application headers and stream-types. all of this is being used to look at the actual "contents" of packets, which are the most *useful* datagrams in the osi world. now, if you choose to look at the "russian doll" analogy, then the payload of a packet certainly has depth, or maybe you prefer the words of neil fallon "chinese boxes hold their secrets well/how many are there? you can never tell". additionally, just because there isn't a "human" inspecting them doesn't mean that a device with signatures *programmed by a human* can't be matched. we've reached a technological point where things can be analyzed (and even correctly) by machines. don't they have that in wyoming? yet another fail. just because karl (and many others on this board) take a pro-consumer standpoint, you feel that he is "anti-isp", when in fact the isps are the entire reason this community exists. i agree that there is a lot of "armchair quarterbacking" from people that have no idea what is going on, but in this case, your shilling is doing nothing to help your case, especially when the first retort out of your mouth had to be moderated. but i guess just because you own your own wisp in a rural location (yes, all of wyoming is rural), you must know best. q. | |
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by tubbynet:"dpi" is being used to represent wirespeed datagram inspection. the "deep packet" part is referring to the fact that the layer-2 information is removed as well as the layer-3 header, footer, and crc. from here, the actual "payload" of the packet is analyzed; it is this payload that contains layer-4 protocol/port information, layer-5 session information, as well as layer-7 application headers and stream-types. all of this is being used to look at the actual "contents" of packets, which are the most *useful* datagrams in the osi world. Thanks for describing DPI. For those familiar with the concept, just not the terminology. | |
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to tubbynet
said by tubbynet: you know as well as i do (or perhaps you don't, in which case you are seriously under-qualified), that "dpi" is being used to represent wirespeed datagram inspection. Again, the word "inspection" -- giving the false and misleading impression that a human is "inspecting" the packets intelligently. This is an attempt to demonize ISPs who are simply doing their jobs. said by tubbynet: the "deep packet" part is referring to the fact that the layer-2 information is removed as well as the layer-3 header, footer, and crc. The entire packet is a single, one dimensional lump. And to be be able to process it at "wire speed," as you say, one cannot do very much computation at all. In fact, ISPs do not want to buy the very expensive processing power that would be required to do any more than gather very basic statistics and/or identify abuse (e.g. P2P). said by tubbynet: don't they have that in wyoming? Your bigotry and ignorance are showing. In fact, it takes more skill and knowledge to serve rural areas than it does to serve urban ones. said by tubbynet:yet another fail. just because karl (and many others on this board) take a pro-consumer standpoint, you feel that he is "anti-isp", There's a big difference between being pro-consumer and being anti-ISP. Being pro-consumer is to recognize that consumers want and need ISPs which are financially sustainable -- which means that they must make a fair profit -- and which care for and maintain their networks. Being pro-consumer is to recognize that no consumer should suffer from poor quality of service because the neighbor's kid is stealing music and video. Karl does not recognize these things; in fact, all he does is condemn and slander ISPs and their profession. Karl is therefore anti-ISP, not pro-consumer. Ad hominem. Moderator? said by tubbynet:is doing nothing to help your case, especially when the first retort out of your mouth had to be moderated. Actually, I made quite a few comments before the one which was deleted -- the only one that ever has been. However, your posting above is a direct personal attack and should, if the moderator is being consistent, be moderated or deleted. said by tubbynet:but i guess just because you own your own wisp in a rural location (yes, all of wyoming is rural), you must know best. Again, an unwarranted and bigoted slur. | |
| | | | | | | | tubbynetreminds me of the danse russe MVM join:2008-01-16 Gilbert, AZ
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Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bodesaid by SuperWISP:Again, the word "inspection" -- giving the false and misleading impression that a human is "inspecting" the packets intelligently. i fail to see anywhere that the term "by a human" is inherent in the definition of inspection. in fact, my good friends at merriam-webster provide this definition: 1 a: the act of inspecting b: recognition of a familiar pattern leading to immediate solution of a mathematical problem 2: a checking or testing of an individual against established standards
and before you accuse me of omitting some crucial information, here's what the same people have to say on "inspecting" 1 : to view closely in critical appraisal : look over 2 : to examine officially
certainly there could be some form of connotation associated with those words, however in the truest sense of the word your connotation does not exist. you *choose* to make it be there for further your agenda. The entire packet is a single, one dimensional lump. And to be be able to process it at "wire speed," as you say, one cannot do very much computation at all.
the packet is a lump containing payload. however, this payload contains the information *of every other successive section of datagram packaging*. this is what allows applications such as websense to function or *any* proxy server for that matter. this is what allows my cisco firewalls (which have been deployed in organizations serving many more people that the total population of laramie) to classfully inspect and examine for access that breaks company policy. this *can* be done at wire speed. you can subject this to whatever "cost savings" you want by skimping on the hardware that you choose to use. it can be done. In fact, it takes more skill and knowledge to serve rural areas than it does to serve urban ones.
having grown up in a town with a population about 1/5th that of laramie, i understand rural dynamics. i also understand what it is like to get shafted by local isps that can charge what they feel because they are the only game in town. i have done several large scale mesh wireless projects in both rural and metropolitan areas. i would not consider myself "wisp-ish", but i do have some knowledge on the subject. if you were dealing directly with buried wiring, i would agree wholeheartedly. however, you are dealing with wireless. your biggest concerns are distance and los (given your climate, you could also look at "ruggedness" of gear, but that isn't _unique_ to rural localities only). very little, if anything, is using your frequency spectrum. in metro areas, you have to worry about spectrum pollution, buildings, user density, etc. is it a different *kind* of skill involved, yes. is one more difficult than the other, i would have to say no. your skills are honed to where you are working, but to come out and "blow your own horn", is a little bit of a stretch. you choose to see what you want to see though. you are just as free to argue the merits of what is being said as i am. however, when you choose to call people "birdbrain" simply because their opinions differ from yours tends to detract from your general argument. q. | |
| | | | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
to SuperWISP
Pot. Kettle. Black. Glass houses, stones, and all.... | |
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to SuperWISP
said by SuperWISP:Your bigotry and ignorance are showing. Bigotry? Oh, the hyperbole! | |
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to SuperWISP
said by SuperWISP:Yes, that is my honest opinion: Karl is consistently anti-ISP. And I am not the only one who thinks this. In a topic I opened on the subject (which Karl locked immediately when he saw it), the majority of those posting agreed. Some went as far as to call his writing "yellow journalism." And I received even more responses offline via e-mail, saying that they agreed with me and were glad that I was daring enough to say it publicly. Balanced journalism is important, and I think that DSL Reports should have more balanced coverage. Since Karl consistently beats on ISPs, there should be (IMHO) at least one other writer who has actual experience delivering broadband and doesn't take such a negative stance. Just my 2 cents. thats because the ISP's in north america now are a joke. theyve been doing this since cell phones came out. we dont need any of this shit, yet its great business for them, and we fall for it. DONT GIVE IN .. | |
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to SuperWISP
No, he's not. I think he's consistently anti-BS-practices--- and since some ISP's seem intent on doing everything possible to NOT give consumers what they want and exploit them, then so be it. Besides, I believe bashing a Moderator is grounds for moderation, is it not? There's such a thing as discussion and then there's insulting...
As for balanced coverage, we have a ton of media outlets spoon shovelling us press releases as news stories. It's nice to have one or two online sites that take a more balanced, customer friendly position like Broadband reports does.... | |
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| KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ |
to SuperWISP
the ISP exists to provide a stable link to the internet. not milk my browsing habits for sale to the highest bidder. | |
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to SuperWISP
Hmmm, wonder how that ties into the installation of optical splitters not that long ago? Secret rooms, war on terror, blah, blah, blah. Bullshit. Everyone is monitored. | |
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to SuperWISP
so basicly DPI is like opening and inspecting every semi that crosses through a weigh station. while normal packet reading is simply running them over the scales and flagging them through. | |
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Who in Congress can understand anything technical anyway.ISPs' or anyone making a buck from deep packet inspection will have an easy job convincing congress or any politicians that this is a good thing.
Lobbying with a big wad of $$$'s for a re election campaign to a politician who cannot understand how a cork screw works is a breeze. Tell Andrew Cuomo in New York that it will stop kiddie porn is another sure way to get what the lobbyists want. | |
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59126125 (banned)
Member
2009-Apr-25 12:52 am
Re: Who in Congress can understand anything technical anyway.That's one thing I always found interesting. It seems to take more money depending on the position of power, even though the level of stupidity remains the same. | |
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But then again, Big Brother probably used lawnmowers, too...*looks nervously at lawnmower* | |
| | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
KrK
Premium Member
2009-Apr-24 10:12 pm
Re: But then again, Big Brother probably used lawnmowers, too..."God Bless the Grass." | |
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So did hitlerBut should we just ignore what Hitler did, just because he too had a lawnmower.
Hitler also ate food just like us and believed in a better world.
But should we just ignore it.
As much good could come from DPI , 1000x as much bad could come from DPI Should we all just blindly trust those, who have already lost our trust. Traffic shaping can be summed up best with this.
"Throttling will only ever have one purpose. When a company cannot afford to upgrade their networks and must deceive their customers into believing they are getting an upgrade in speed. When that is not actually possible and to appear to be competitive in a market they cannot compete in."
and that ^ is the best thing that can come from DPI, if you can even consider that good. | |
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Encrypt Everything!Perhaps all web pages should be encrypted.
Go to a website? Insist they use HTTPS. Telnet? (Anyone still uses telnet on a regular basis?) Well there's SSH. Make better use of VPN.
Yeah, there's a bit of overhead for encrypting all traffic, but aren't computers supposedly getting more powerful? | |
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awI cant believe people are actually arguing about DPI's "validity" , haha
we can't even get enough people to know what throttling or UBB means and how it affects them, let alone get anyone to fight for something they dont know exists.
" Hail Hitler ! " | |
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Shamayim
Premium Member
2009-Apr-26 9:43 am
Big Brother is Watching YOUAnd Karl Bode is watching Big Brother. Nothing wrong with that | |
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Encryption!Intrusive DPI in the long term is only going to be viable if most forms of encryption are outlawed. For those of us concerned for our civil liberties, it's a world without encryption we should be more worried about. | |
| | mastervirus Premium Member join:2004-07-05 North Charleston, SC |
Re: Encryption!Honestly its going to be just like it is now with p2p // oh your doing illegal things with encryption trying to hide from dpi /// maybe the court system will help us just like they have with RIAA and grandma | |
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Zatoichi
Anon
2009-Apr-28 4:28 pm
The Blind Leading The RetardedPublic shame. I do not believe anyone has given much thought or energy to caring what the 'public' generally thinks about and looks down on. The 60's started the landslide of free thought and action independent of shame and disgrace in the public eye.
Trust not the one-eyed man... he will lead you to ruin.
Further, our government is in on this. Do not expect them to come running to save you... expect them to encourage this and use it to control the population as much as possible. Do not take my word for this... check your history and then watch Obama (I cannot talk enough smack about the fools he is front man for). Also, google or search "conversational hypnosis" then add Obama to the search query. Oh how fun. | |
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