Big Brother Probably Used Deep Packet InspectionBut then again, Big Brother probably used lawnmowers, too... ( old news - 02:48PM Friday Apr 24 2009) tags: business · privacy · consumersDeep packet inspection (DPI) has many legitimate uses on an ISP network, but has gained notoriety in recent years for its use in delivering behavioral ads, injecting ISP javascript banners into websites, and identifying (and ultimately filtering or throttling) P2P traffic. Like most technology DPI isn't inherently bad, but the way it can be used and mis-used by carriers to make a buck certainly may be. Evolution in DPI technology has ISPs not only buying and selling your online habits, but hardware vendors push the technology as a new Internet policing solution, placing the onus on ISPs to someday compare every packet a user sends to a master database of what's legal or moral. The negative uses of DPI have led to hearings this week in Washington exploring how broadband ISPs use the technology, and whether stronger privacy guidelines are needed. While Congress frequently likes to talk about passing laws requiring that such systems be purely "opt in" for consumers, the collective lobbying muscle of both the telecom and marketing/advertising industries continually ensures this doesn't happen. In order to prevent such laws from passing, carriers like AT&T and Verizon are trying to push for a self-regulatory system whereby " public shame" would keep them honest about privacy violations. Hopefully the Ministry Of Truth and Thought Police can sort this whole thing out.
Related:- BitBlinder: Like TOR, But Faster
- Phorm Fighting Tightening Balance Sheet AND Critics
- Cable's 'Canoe' Plan Takes On Water
- AT&T No Longer Wants Kevin Mitnick As A Customer
- Verizon Named Most Trusted Company With Your Privacy. Really?
- Shocker: Informed Consumers Want Privacy, Not Tailored Ads
- Court: Uncle Sam Must Hand Over Immunity Lobbying Docs
- Obama Protects AT&T, Verizon Lobbying Records
|
 DarkLogix
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX | Not more 1985 Emanuel Goldstein will save us | |
| 
tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
Premium
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ
 ·Cox HSI
 ·Callcentric
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·FrontierNet Intern..
| public shame...? While Congress frequently likes to talk about passing laws requiring that such systems be purely "opt in" for consumers, the collective lobbying muscle of both the telecom and marketing/advertising industries continually ensures this doesn't happen. In order to prevent such laws from passing, carriers like AT&T and Verizon are trying to push for a self-regulatory system whereby "public shame" would keep them honest about privacy violations.
"public shame" only works for those who have souls. should read:
self-regulatory system whereby "public shame" subscriber loss and lower shareholder returns would keep them honest about privacy violations.
q.
--
those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it... | |
|  | DarkLogix
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX | Re: public shame...? ya those soulless Lobbiest | |
| | 
swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable
| The only reason any industry ever tries to offer "self-regulation" is to preserve the power to do what the legislators propose to forbid.
The argument that a law is "unnecessary" because the proposed targets are supposedly going to behave is obviously illogical. If they aren't going to do X, then they won't be affected by a prohibition of X. If they object to a prohibition of X, it can only be because they want to do X.
BTW, the likes of Phorm and Nebu-ad - which offer ISPs a share of profits if the ISPs let the companies spy on the ISP's customers and sell targeted advertising - these companies' business model features not only wiretapping, but forgery as well - they actually tamper with data on its way to or from the web users.
Making such conduct subject to fines is not enough - it should be a felony. | |
| 
No to ESPN
@sbcglobal.net | Ministry Of Truth and Thought Police Doesn't Santa Claus work for them? | |
| | 
uid1307457
Premium
join:2005-12-30
Tempe, AZ | Re: Ministry Of Truth and Thought Police said by No to ESPN :
Doesn't Santa Claus work for them?
Easter bunny too | |
| SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY
| Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. | |
| | DarkLogix
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX | Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode you must be an enemy of the brotherhood and Mr. Goldstein | |
| | | | | | | k1ll3rdr4g0n
join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL
| Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode said by Anonymous_  :said by SuperWISP :Of course, being so sure that ISPs are fundamentally evil, Mr. Bode would never consider the notion that perhaps ISPs monitor their networks to ensure quality of service. Rather, they're doing e-vile spying and selling users' darkest secrets to the highest bidder, of course. soon DPI will be useless by using strong encryption ISP to customer: "Why was every single one of your packets encrypted?"
Customer to ISP: "None of your damn business!  *happy face*" | |
| | | | | | | | | 
birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode said by SuperWISP :"birdfeedr," it sounds as if your name should really be "bird brain." Well, I guess that sets the tone for discourse from you. I apologize for whatever I said to merit that response. I thought I made a couple of valid points. Maybe with a little flair, but valid nonetheless.
said by SuperWISP :Go ahead: go to an ISP that doesn't understand how to monitor its network. You'll get what you deserve: poor service. I'm noting your use of "monitor". That's a major part of arguments against DPI.
I accept, as does Karl, that there may be a positive use for DPI. Let's call it "management". So far, DPI management is innocuous until it is used to deny subscribers use of the system as it is marketed. I am not arguing for or against caps or throttling. That's a different issue.
If an ISP plans on using DPI, and can assure it's subscribers how it will be used, and for what purpose, and can assure it will not be used for as-yet unspecified purposes, maybe i can make an informed decision.
But, answer me this, why is it that the major ISPs already have in place language in their TOS that says they may use traffic for third-party use?
Trust me, management is the code word justification for the real desire. Revenue stream. | |
| | | | 
mod_wastrel
join:2008-03-28
·magicjack.com
| You don't need to know anything about the user data in packets to effectively monitor and manage any network.
Of course, when you resort to personal attacks on those who disagree with you, you obviously must be clueless to begin with... so, you're what? 8? | |
| | | | | SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY
1 edit | Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode "My computer says it can't find thisparticulardomain.com."
"I'm trying to reach this Web site, but all I'm getting is a blank page."
"My computer is acting funny. Does it have a Trojan horse program in it that's sending out spam or something?"
"Is my computer infected with the Slammer worm?"
"Tech support? My connection is slow. Is my son running that illegal nut-teller program again?"
...
"Sorry, but we can't help you. Congress outlawed the basic network administration tools that would allow us to look at network traffic in detail and tell you." | |
| | | | | |
birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode said by SuperWISP :1. "My computer says it can't find thisparticulardomain.com." 2. "I'm trying to reach this Web site, but all I'm getting is a blank page." 3. "My computer is acting funny. Does it have a Trojan horse program in it that's sending out spam or something?" 4. "Is my computer infected with the Slammer worm?" 5. "Tech support? My connection is slow. Is my son running that illegal nut-teller program again?" ... 6. "Sorry, but we can't help you. Congress outlawed the basic network administration tools that would allow us to look at network traffic in detail and tell you." 1. Reboot your modem/router then try again.
2. Reboot your computer then try again.
3. Call our premium support helpline for $19.95 per incident.
4. Call our premium support helpline for $19.95 per incident.
5. Our system shows you are getting the bandwidth you are provisioned for. Service is "up to x/y mbps." Reboot your computer and try again.
6. In order to answer your questions, we can run some system tools that will look at all the data that's crossing your modem. It might show some sensitive data such as passwords and accounts. Will you authorize us to use these tools to diagnose your connection? You may terminate the diagnostic sesion at any time. We cannot initiate it without your permission.
SuperWISP. I get your point. I've never invalidated your point of view. Sometimes it is possible to solve network problems by looking closely atthe packets. I've worked with CommView and Wireshark to analyse and solve problems.
1 to 5 are typical tech support at the level 1. If you get past that level, something like 6 becomes operative. I've called for tech support, and this is real world experience.
You're talking about tech support. Karl's article, plus the referenced WSJ article are talking about something else entirely.
quote:
The negative uses of DPI have led to hearings this week in Washington exploring how broadband ISPs use the technology, and whether stronger privacy guidelines are needed.
quote:
The focus of the hearing was on new efforts by Internet providers to collect and share data on consumers' behavior to target online advertising and by cable companies to target ads at subscribers via their set-top boxes.
Are you sure you understand what I am talking about?
We're not on the same page, and there's no requirement to do so. But man, I don't think we're in the same library. If ya know what I mean. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | Really? Because I have diagnosed and repaired those same type problems 40+ hours every week for the last 17 years and never once did I have to use DPI to do it. | |
| | | | | | | SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY
3 edits | Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode Yes, that is my honest opinion: Karl is consistently anti-ISP. And I am not the only one who thinks this. In a topic I opened on the subject (which Karl locked immediately when he saw it), the majority of those posting agreed. Some went as far as to call his writing "yellow journalism." And I received even more responses offline via e-mail, saying that they agreed with me and were glad that I was daring enough to say it publicly.
Balanced journalism is important, and I think that DSL Reports should have more balanced coverage. Since Karl consistently beats on ISPs, there should be (IMHO) at least one other writer who has actual experience delivering broadband and doesn't take such a negative stance. Just my 2 cents. | |
| | | | | | | | | SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY | Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode Amy Schatz' WSJ article was not biased. But Karl's coverage of so-called "deep packet inspection" (which is a misnomer in several ways: packets have no "depth" and no human being is "inspecting" them), IMHO, is. | |
| | | | | |
tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
Premium
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ
·Cox HSI
·Callcentric
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·FrontierNet Intern..
| Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode said by SuperWISP :"deep packet inspection" (which is a misnomer in several ways: packets have no "depth" and no human being is "inspecting" them) using semantics to deflect the argument is a worthless ploy. you could complain about the legitimacy of the "broadband" industry, when broadband is used erroneously as we are not looking at the frequency spectrum as an indicator of transfer speed.
regardless, you know as well as i do (or perhaps you don't, in which case you are seriously under-qualified), that "dpi" is being used to represent wirespeed datagram inspection. the "deep packet" part is referring to the fact that the layer-2 information is removed as well as the layer-3 header, footer, and crc. from here, the actual "payload" of the packet is analyzed; it is this payload that contains layer-4 protocol/port information, layer-5 session information, as well as layer-7 application headers and stream-types. all of this is being used to look at the actual "contents" of packets, which are the most *useful* datagrams in the osi world. now, if you choose to look at the "russian doll" analogy, then the payload of a packet certainly has depth, or maybe you prefer the words of neil fallon "chinese boxes hold their secrets well/how many are there? you can never tell".
additionally, just because there isn't a "human" inspecting them doesn't mean that a device with signatures *programmed by a human* can't be matched. we've reached a technological point where things can be analyzed (and even correctly) by machines. don't they have that in wyoming?
yet another fail. just because karl (and many others on this board) take a pro-consumer standpoint, you feel that he is "anti-isp", when in fact the isps are the entire reason this community exists. i agree that there is a lot of "armchair quarterbacking" from people that have no idea what is going on, but in this case, your shilling is doing nothing to help your case, especially when the first retort out of your mouth had to be moderated.
but i guess just because you own your own wisp in a rural location (yes, all of wyoming is rural), you must know best.
q. | |
| | | | | | |
birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode said by tubbynet :"dpi" is being used to represent wirespeed datagram inspection. the "deep packet" part is referring to the fact that the layer-2 information is removed as well as the layer-3 header, footer, and crc. from here, the actual "payload" of the packet is analyzed; it is this payload that contains layer-4 protocol/port information, layer-5 session information, as well as layer-7 application headers and stream-types. all of this is being used to look at the actual "contents" of packets, which are the most *useful* datagrams in the osi world. Thanks for describing DPI. For those familiar with the concept, just not the terminology. | |
| | | | | | | SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY
| said by tubbynet : you know as well as i do (or perhaps you don't, in which case you are seriously under-qualified), that "dpi" is being used to represent wirespeed datagram inspection. Again, the word "inspection" -- giving the false and misleading impression that a human is "inspecting" the packets intelligently. This is an attempt to demonize ISPs who are simply doing their jobs.
said by tubbynet : the "deep packet" part is referring to the fact that the layer-2 information is removed as well as the layer-3 header, footer, and crc. The entire packet is a single, one dimensional lump. And to be be able to process it at "wire speed," as you say, one cannot do very much computation at all. In fact, ISPs do not want to buy the very expensive processing power that would be required to do any more than gather very basic statistics and/or identify abuse (e.g. P2P).
said by tubbynet : don't they have that in wyoming? Your bigotry and ignorance are showing. In fact, it takes more skill and knowledge to serve rural areas than it does to serve urban ones.
said by tubbynet :yet another fail. just because karl (and many others on this board) take a pro-consumer standpoint, you feel that he is "anti-isp", There's a big difference between being pro-consumer and being anti-ISP. Being pro-consumer is to recognize that consumers want and need ISPs which are financially sustainable -- which means that they must make a fair profit -- and which care for and maintain their networks. Being pro-consumer is to recognize that no consumer should suffer from poor quality of service because the neighbor's kid is stealing music and video. Karl does not recognize these things; in fact, all he does is condemn and slander ISPs and their profession. Karl is therefore anti-ISP, not pro-consumer.
said by tubbynet : your shilling Ad hominem. Moderator?
said by tubbynet :is doing nothing to help your case, especially when the first retort out of your mouth had to be moderated. Actually, I made quite a few comments before the one which was deleted -- the only one that ever has been. However, your posting above is a direct personal attack and should, if the moderator is being consistent, be moderated or deleted.
said by tubbynet :but i guess just because you own your own wisp in a rural location (yes, all of wyoming is rural), you must know best. Again, an unwarranted and bigoted slur. | |
| | | | | | | |
tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
Premium
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ
·Cox HSI
·Callcentric
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·FrontierNet Intern..
| Re: Another anti-ISP article from Mr. Bode said by SuperWISP :Again, the word "inspection" -- giving the false and misleading impression that a human is "inspecting" the packets intelligently. i fail to see anywhere that the term "by a human" is inherent in the definition of inspection. in fact, my good friends at merriam-webster provide this definition:
1 a: the act of inspecting b: recognition of a familiar pattern leading to immediate solution of a mathematical problem 2: a checking or testing of an individual against established standards
and before you accuse me of omitting some crucial information, here's what the same people have to say on "inspecting"
1 : to view closely in critical appraisal : look over 2 : to examine officially
certainly there could be some form of connotation associated with those words, however in the truest sense of the word your connotation does not exist. you *choose* to make it be there for further your agenda.
The entire packet is a single, one dimensional lump. And to be be able to process it at "wire speed," as you say, one cannot do very much computation at all.
the packet is a lump containing payload. however, this payload contains the information *of every other successive section of datagram packaging*. this is what allows applications such as websense to function or *any* proxy server for that matter. this is what allows my cisco firewalls (which have been deployed in organizations serving many more people that the total population of laramie) to classfully inspect and examine for access that breaks company policy. this *can* be done at wire speed. you can subject this to whatever "cost savings" you want by skimping on the hardware that you choose to use. it can be done.
In fact, it takes more skill and knowledge to serve rural areas than it does to serve urban ones.
having grown up in a town with a population about 1/5th that of laramie, i understand rural dynamics. i also understand what it is like to get shafted by local isps that can charge what they feel because they are the only game in town. i have done several large scale mesh wireless projects in both rural and metropolitan areas. i would not consider myself "wisp-ish", but i do have some knowledge on the subject. if you were dealing directly with buried wiring, i would agree wholeheartedly. however, you are dealing with wireless. your biggest concerns are distance and los (given your climate, you could also look at "ruggedness" of gear, but that isn't _unique_ to rural localities only). very little, if anything, is using your frequency spectrum. in metro areas, you have to worry about spectrum pollution, buildings, user density, etc. is it a different *kind* of skill involved, yes. is one more difficult than the other, i would have to say no. your skills are honed to where you are working, but to come out and "blow your own horn", is a little bit of a stretch.
you choose to see what you want to see though. you are just as free to argue the merits of what is being said as i am. however, when you choose to call people "birdbrain" simply because their opinions differ from yours tends to detract from your general argument.
q. | |
| | | | | | | | 
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Pot. Kettle. Black. Glass houses, stones, and all....
| |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | the ISP exists to provide a stable link to the internet. not milk my browsing habits for sale to the highest bidder.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
| | 
59126125
Premium
join:2006-01-21
clubs: | Hmmm, wonder how that ties into the installation of optical splitters not that long ago? Secret rooms, war on terror, blah, blah, blah. Bullshit. Everyone is monitored. | |
| | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| so basicly DPI is like opening and inspecting every semi that crosses through a weigh station. while normal packet reading is simply running them over the scales and flagging them through.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
| bgraham
join:2001-03-15
Smithtown, NY
·Verizon FIOS
| Who in Congress can understand anything technical anyway. ISPs' or anyone making a buck from deep packet inspection will have an easy job convincing congress or any politicians that this is a good thing.
Lobbying with a big wad of $$$'s for a re election campaign to a politician who cannot understand how a cork screw works is a breeze. Tell Andrew Cuomo in New York that it will stop kiddie porn is another sure way to get what the lobbyists want. | |
| |
59126125
Premium
join:2006-01-21
clubs: | Re: Who in Congress can understand anything technical anyway. That's one thing I always found interesting. It seems to take more money depending on the position of power, even though the level of stupidity remains the same. | |
| 
james
join:2001-02-26
antarctica | But then again, Big Brother probably used lawnmowers, too... *looks nervously at lawnmower* | |
| |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: But then again, Big Brother probably used lawnmowers, too... "God Bless the Grass." | |
| SaveTheNet
join:2009-04-17
·TekSavvy Solutions..
4 edits | So did hitler But should we just ignore what Hitler did, just because he too had a lawnmower.
Hitler also ate food just like us and believed in a better world.
But should we just ignore it.
As much good could come from DPI , 1000x as much bad could come from DPI
Should we all just blindly trust those, who have already lost our trust.
Traffic shaping can be summed up best with this.
"Throttling will only ever have one purpose.
When a company cannot afford to upgrade their networks and must deceive their customers into believing they are getting an upgrade in speed.
When that is not actually possible and to appear to be competitive in a market they cannot compete in."
and that ^ is the best thing that can come from DPI, if you can even consider that good. | |
| |
See 8 replies to this post | |
MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA
·Comcast
|  Encrypt Everything!
Go to a website? Insist they use HTTPS. Telnet? (Anyone still uses telnet on a regular basis?) Well there's SSH. Make better use of VPN.
Yeah, there's a bit of overhead for encrypting all traffic, but aren't computers supposedly getting more powerful? | |
| 
DJMASACRE
join:2008-05-27
Nepean, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| aw I cant believe people are actually arguing about DPI's "validity" , haha
we can't even get enough people to know what throttling or UBB means and how it affects them, let alone get anyone to fight for something they dont know exists.
" Hail Hitler ! " | |
| 
Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23 | Big Brother is Watching YOU And Karl Bode is watching Big Brother.
Nothing wrong with that | |
| modemslayer
join:2003-12-11
Spokane, WA | Encryption! Intrusive DPI in the long term is only going to be viable if most forms of encryption are outlawed. For those of us concerned for our civil liberties, it's a world without encryption we should be more worried about. | |
| | 
mastervirus
Premium
join:2004-07-05
North Charleston, SC
clubs: | Re: Encryption! Honestly its going to be just like it is now with p2p // oh your doing illegal things with encryption trying to hide from dpi /// maybe the court system will help us just like they have with RIAA and grandma | |
|
Zatoichi
@direcway.com
| The Blind Leading The Retarded Public shame. I do not believe anyone has given much thought or energy to caring what the 'public' generally thinks about and looks down on. The 60's started the landslide of free thought and action independent of shame and disgrace in the public eye.
Trust not the one-eyed man... he will lead you to ruin.
Further, our government is in on this. Do not expect them to come running to save you... expect them to encourage this and use it to control the population as much as possible. Do not take my word for this... check your history and then watch Obama (I cannot talk enough smack about the fools he is front man for). Also, google or search "conversational hypnosis" then add Obama to the search query. Oh how fun. | |
| | | |
|
|
