Bill Takes Aim At Patent Lawsuit Stupidity Forces Failed Plaintiffs to Pay Defendant's Legal Bills As we descend further and faster into stupid patent bickering (particularly in wireless), a new bill circulating in the House of Representatives aims to trim frivolous patent lawsuits by forcing unsuccessful plaintiffs to cover defendant legal costs. The Saving High-Tech Innovators from Egregious Legal Disputes (SHIELD) Act, supported by Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) and co-sponsored by Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), would only apply to patents for computer software and hardware. "Patent trolls don't create new technology and they don't create American jobs," DeFazio said in a news release. "They pad their pockets by buying patents on products they didn't create and then suing the innovators who did the hard work and created the product."
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 RobIn Deo speramus.Premium join:2001-08-25 Kendall, FL kudos:3 | Biggest Patent Troll? The Patent Office. You can stop the patent stupidity by reforming the patent office. No person, or entity, should be able to patent certain concepts. | |
|  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Biggest Patent Troll? The Patent Office. Problem is who pays the lawmaker bribes . And it's not the people who actually innovate. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |  jester121Premium join:2003-08-09 Lake Zurich, IL | Re: Biggest Patent Troll? The Patent Office. It is if they know what's good for them. | |
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 |  Stumbles join:2002-12-17 Port Saint Lucie, FL | I agree especially when it deals with software. Until then I think this law would stop a good deal of the patent trolls or at least give them pause to determine if they really really want to file a frivolous law suit. | |
|  |  |  bbeesleyVIP join:2003-08-07 Richardson, TX kudos:5 | Re: Biggest Patent Troll? The Patent Office. said by Stumbles: give them pause to determine if they really really want to file a frivolous law suit. and what happens when the lawsuit isn't frivolous but is brought by some "little guy" against a big corporation for stealing his novel idea and making billions on it?
The corporation can afford a covey of high priced lawyers, while the little guy can't and when the corporate legal army wins out the little guy would have to pay for the corporations lawyers.
Current Patent law is indeed broken, but as with most attempts at resolving market issues with legislation, this bill can only make it worse. | |
|  |  |  |  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN kudos:7 | Re: Biggest Patent Troll? The Patent Office. said by bbeesley:and what happens when the lawsuit isn't frivolous but is brought by some "little guy" against a big corporation for stealing his novel idea and making billions on it?
The corporation can afford a covey of high priced lawyers, while the little guy can't and when the corporate legal army wins out the little guy would have to pay for the corporations lawyers.
Current Patent law is indeed broken, but as with most attempts at resolving market issues with legislation, this bill can only make it worse. It's already addressed in the SUMMARY of the law: quote: To amend chapter 29 of title 35, United States Code, to provide for the recovery of computer hardware and software patent litigation costs in cases where the court finds the claimant did not have a reasonable likelihood of succeeding, and for other purposes.
If it was a legitimate lawsuit, but the plaintiff just did not win, then then they don't have to pay. | |
|  |  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK | said by Stumbles:and what happens when the lawsuit isn't frivolous but is brought by some "little guy" against a big corporation for stealing his novel idea and making billions on it? Your attorney should set you up a LLC. If this happened, you lose and face huge bills, The LLC goes bankrupt and you walk away. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
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| I don't think this will have much effect.
Paying the litigation costs of the prevailing party is at the discretion of the judge. In addition, it will only make the very absurd law suits go away. It won't eliminate all troll suits because the act itself says that the penalty is applied in those cases where there was no reasonable likelihood of success.
Finally, until there is some change at how ITC filings for patent infringement are handled, a lot of the trolls will go (and have gone) there to get injunctions.
Again, I don't think this will have any significant effect. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. | |
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 | | Holding companies are the problem.... Companies that buy up patents and then sit on them until someone else makes the same innovation, then sues for compensation...that is one of the biggest issues.
I feel that a patent that goes unused for a certain period of time should be considered abandoned and fall into public domain. If you patent a concept, but don't plan to do anything with it, why should you have a right to profit from it?(after a reasonable period of time) -- Grant Wallace Hixson, TN Happy @Home user since April 2001
Let's face it, none of us are getting out of this life alive. | |
|  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
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| Re: Holding companies are the problem.... Easy in concept, but hard in application.
Some technologies take longer to perfect. Who and how is it to be determined that the period of time is for non-use? If I patent a crustless sandwich maker, then implementation and development is easy. But if I'm patenting a gene sequencing machine, development of a commercially viable product may take years. What about all the patents in-between? Who decides? How is it decided?
With the new AIA that results in a race to the patent office, even more concept patents are going to be filed. Do we go back to the days where working models or prototypes were required? I think that horse left the barn a long time ago. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. When you try to define it with precision, the troll can tweak a few settings to get to the other side of the demarkation point. It then takes years for Congress to regroup.
Congress has dealt with other similar problems by delegating the rulemaking authority to agencies to change the criteria to deal with adaptive system abusers. For example, designer drug laws allow the DEA to ban new drugs that have certain properties even though they are not listed by name. This stops drug dealers from creating slight variations in drugs to slide around the rules. Similarly, the IRS can do this with tax structures. When people suggested a similar proposal to deal with assault weapons, people went ballistic.
If you look at many of these patent trolls, they operate out of offices the size of a shoebox (rarely a mailbox), in the Eastern District of Texas, are fully owned by lawyers who make their living representing these corporations. Since corporations are separate legal entities, they can collect attorney fees. (Someone representing themselves cannot).
My thoughts are as follows:
*We stop the trolls from getting attorney fees from the other side by allowing the court to peer through the structure and make an economic reality based test whether the lawyer and the business are largely overlapping;
*We create a special patent/copyright enforcement court that is designed for virtual litigation (appearance by teleconference, fasttracked discovery), etc.;
*We create a fast tracked first stage of litigation with limited discovery (to stop abusive discovery aimed at burdening the defendant);
*We allow damages to mitigated by proof that the infringment was untintentional and the product of good faith patent research. If the infringment is unintentional, we can offset the damages by proof of what the cost and reduced sales would be to go forward with alternate non-infringing technology. For example, Samsung quickly reworked their phones to deal with some of Apple's patent claims. In a judgment issued for an infringement, the jury should be asked to determine how many more phones would have been sold because of the infringing similarity than if the product had come to market with the non-infring interface;
*If the infringment is innocent (see above), compulsory licenses can be calculated with reference to industry standard fees with some multiplier, e.g. no more than 2.5 times what the factfinder believes comparable licenses were granted for;
Special rules should be put in place for probable trolls. I believe that the Justice Department or the Patent Office should be empowered to promulgate rules defining the ever changing characteristics of a troll and that Congress should identify the criteria with a broad brush. Trolls could further be limited to only collecting X times what they originally paid for the patent. | |
|  |  |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
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| Re: Holding companies are the problem.... said by stufried:The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. When you try to define it with precision, the troll can tweak a few settings to get to the other side of the demarkation point. It then takes years for Congress to regroup.
Congress has dealt with other similar problems by delegating the rulemaking authority to agencies to change the criteria to deal with adaptive system abusers. For example, designer drug laws allow the DEA to ban new drugs that have certain properties even though they are not listed by name. This stops drug dealers from creating slight variations in drugs to slide around the rules. Similarly, the IRS can do this with tax structures. When people suggested a similar proposal to deal with assault weapons, people went ballistic.
If you look at many of these patent trolls, they operate out of offices the size of a shoebox (rarely a mailbox), in the Eastern District of Texas, are fully owned by lawyers who make their living representing these corporations. Since corporations are separate legal entities, they can collect attorney fees. (Someone representing themselves cannot).
My thoughts are as follows:
*We stop the trolls from getting attorney fees from the other side by allowing the court to peer through the structure and make an economic reality based test whether the lawyer and the business are largely overlapping;
*We create a special patent/copyright enforcement court that is designed for virtual litigation (appearance by teleconference, fasttracked discovery), etc.;
*We create a fast tracked first stage of litigation with limited discovery (to stop abusive discovery aimed at burdening the defendant);
*We allow damages to mitigated by proof that the infringment was untintentional and the product of good faith patent research. If the infringment is unintentional, we can offset the damages by proof of what the cost and reduced sales would be to go forward with alternate non-infringing technology. For example, Samsung quickly reworked their phones to deal with some of Apple's patent claims. In a judgment issued for an infringement, the jury should be asked to determine how many more phones would have been sold because of the infringing similarity than if the product had come to market with the non-infring interface;
*If the infringment is innocent (see above), compulsory licenses can be calculated with reference to industry standard fees with some multiplier, e.g. no more than 2.5 times what the factfinder believes comparable licenses were granted for;
Special rules should be put in place for probable trolls. I believe that the Justice Department or the Patent Office should be empowered to promulgate rules defining the ever changing characteristics of a troll and that Congress should identify the criteria with a broad brush. Trolls could further be limited to only collecting X times what they originally paid for the patent. Patent trolling has a giant industry. Look at Intellectual Ventures and Rockstar Consortium. The latter in particular, since it's backed by big business.
I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts, but they would require massive changes in the laws. And regarding the expansion of RAND licensing and innocent infringers, that's not as easy to tackle as you would make it seem, although it's not a bad idea. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. | |
|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... I don't think any of this is easy and the twenty minutes I put into my post is no substitute for carefully thought out legislation. I also know that everytime major litigation passes it takes years of litigation to sort out. Lastly, I know that every law has unintended consequences. One reason I suggest implementation of the law through regulations was to permit a more dynamic system to deal with problems on both sides. Consider my suggestions talking points. Perhaps someone with more skills in this field than I can take the ball and run with it. | |
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 |  |  |  MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 Reviews:
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| said by stufried:The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. I'm not sure about that. For example, every time a story comes up about TiVo suing a company, I inevitably see a bunch of responses that TiVo is a patent troll, despite the fact that TiVo manufacturers and sells products based on their patents.
To some people any company that sues over software patents is a patent troll. -- The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. | |
|  |  |  |  |  Oh_NoTrogglus normalus join:2011-05-21 Chicago, IL | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... That is true. This bill wont fix the real problem allowing companies to patent vague ideas and concepts with no working product or allowing them to patent an idea that the computer world already does and knows about.
Tivo invented nothing. They made a product off prior ideas that were common knowledge, but were just the first person who filed paperwork as they had the money to do so. Tivo makes a product, but they are also a patent troll using patents they never should have received to stop competition. Just because you manufacture the product does not mean you are not a patent troll. Microsoft, samsung, apple all patent troll (partly because they need to be able to retaliate against each other.) | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... You people are nuts. I'll leave you all to blather on about things of which you have no clue. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 | dupe post dupe post | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... And you just proved my point. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  Oh_NoTrogglus normalus join:2011-05-21 Chicago, IL | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... said by Morac:And you just proved my point. Not 100% as many technology companies have legit patents and they need to protect. But there are trolls that patent ideas they did not invent. As I said the companies are forced to play the patent troll games so they patent everything even when they know they did not invent it.
The main problem is someone who knows nothing about current technology and what is out there is approving patents that should not exist. So basically a company can search sourceforge, internet forums, and small time companies who dont have money to fight lawsuits and patent their ideas with no working product. Then they use that patent to fight their competitors. | |
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 |  |  |  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | said by Morac:said by stufried:The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. I'm not sure about that. For example, every time a story comes up about TiVo suing a company, I inevitably see a bunch of responses that TiVo is a patent troll, despite the fact that TiVo manufacturers and sells products based on their patents. To some people any company that sues over software patents is a patent troll. The problem is should Tivo be allowed to fully own some of their features or just the specific software code that makes them happen. This is where the software patent issues come into play, If someone codes their own DVR should they have to pay a license fee for someone else's code that does the same thing but with a different internal process. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 Reviews:
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| Re: Holding companies are the problem.... said by Kearnstd:The problem is should Tivo be allowed to fully own some of their features or just the specific software code that makes them happen. This is where the software patent issues come into play, If someone codes their own DVR should they have to pay a license fee for someone else's code that does the same thing but with a different internal process. That's how patents work. You can't patent ideas, only processes. Anyone is free to work around a patented process by coming up with a different process to accomplish the same thing.
The problem is when the patented processes are so ridiculous simplistic such that there is no way around said patent. Patents like those are supposed to be rejected as "obvious". Amazon's one click purchase patent comes to mind in this case.
TiVo's major patent (the timewarp one) does have a specifically process of separating the video and audio into separate files and time tagging both files to make seeking in them easier. Whether that could be considered "obvious" back in 1999 when it was filed is up to interpretation. -- The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. | |
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 |  |  | | I would argue that your gene machine and all the patents in-between should not be granted until you have a working model. Your idea, regardless of how well you or a lawyer or an engineer can put it down on paper is nothing but a dream until you actually have something tangent that can do what you "think" it can do.
Yes, I would say concepts, theories and hypotheticals should not be patented even if they can be proven with mathematics and physics unless you have a working model.
If in the process of making the gene machine you create something else (the in-between) then that should be patented on its own merit.
Software along with their processes and results which are the end product of software should NEVER be patented for any reason. It is code and should be copyrighted. This would and should allow others to create the same end results, but require they write their own code for doing so. | |
|  |  |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
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| Re: Holding companies are the problem.... said by Skippy25:I would argue that your gene machine and all the patents in-between should not be granted until you have a working model. Your idea, regardless of how well you or a lawyer or an engineer can put it down on paper is nothing but a dream until you actually have something tangent that can do what you "think" it can do.
Concepts, theories and hypotheticals should not be patented even if they can be proven with mathematics and physics unless you have a working model.
If in the process of making the gene machine you create something else (the in-between) then that should be patented on its own merit.
Software along with their processes and results which are the end product of software should NEVER be patented for any reason. It is code and should be copyrighted. This would and should allow others to create the same end results, but require they write their own code for doing so. Like I said, constructive reduction to practice has been the law of the land for many years. It's not going to change and there's been no indication that it's even a concept on the drawing board.
Software patents typically do not disclose the code. It's done in a black boxed functional manner, where code is usually not specifically claimed or disclosed (although you will see it in certain patents).
Software doesn't have to be copyrighted. It automatically receives that protection. A copyright only has to be registered if there's going to be litigation.
Also, eliminating software patents is also potentially unfair for innovators. For example, if I come up with a program that puts pixels on a screen in a certain way that will prevent epileptic seizures when displaying images, shouldn't I be able to get a patent for that? If not, why? The screen and the device are hardware. The arrangement of the pixels on the screen is a method. The software simply drives the ability to enact the method. But it's still an important part of the invention. So are hybrid software/hardware patents okay? If so, then we're back to the present day Bilski case. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. | |
|  |  |  |  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... Software patents only exist to provide something to sue people over. A good example is the constant rounds of bullshit in the smartphone industry. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
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| Re: Holding companies are the problem.... said by Kearnstd:Software patents only exist to provide something to sue people over. A good example is the constant rounds of bullshit in the smartphone industry. Disagree.
We spend millions of dollars developing software that works with our hardware. I've personally written many, many software patents over the years. In very few cases was it done for the purpose of suing someone. Rather, it was done to protect the engineering innovation and R&D dollars spent in developing the software. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... But wait... didnt you already say your software is copyrighted and thus can't be stolen? So what is it you are scared of?
Are you also saying that nobody else can come along and innovate a better implementation on "your" hardware by writing better software? | |
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 |  |  |  |  1 edit | I'm not sure I am seeing a valid argument for or against anything I said beyond your seizure one, which I would say no to if it is software based. Hybrid solution would result in the hardware being patented and the software being copyrighted exclusive of one another.
The method you got it to work with software is copyrighted and cannot be reproduced, but the end result is what you really want to patent (no seizures because of your software) and thus you want to restrict anyone else from "innovating" even better software to accomplish the same goal without paying you first. We could extent this to say once someone comes up with any concept for an end result and patents it, then nobody can do anything to come up with that end result without first paying the patent holder. One example of this that comes to mind is the One-Click shopping cart patent.
Your first point, that it has been that way for years, is kind of silly. Blacks use to be owned and women couldnt vote. I am pretty sure we are better off now because we didnt have people sitting around saying.... it's been that way for years so we cant change it. The system is clearly broke and I would argue one of the main reasons it is broken is because concepts and theories are patented too much. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
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| Re: Holding companies are the problem.... Unless you know the history of patent filings, you have no basis on which to call my assertion silly. Read up a little on the case law and history before making comments like that. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... Really? You are saying because it has always been that way so we can't change it is silly regardless of history and my lack of knowledge concerning patents.
Case law or not. It can be changed with laws being enacted by Congress. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 | Re: Holding companies are the problem.... READ the history. Constructive reduction to practice has NOT always been that way. I'm done with you. | |
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 tcopePremium join:2003-05-07 Sandy, UT kudos:2 | Legal system not broken Yup... just another bill that some out of touch politician came up with so he/she can say they were working for their money. It will never pass... and it should not. As mentioned above, it would break the legal system. Like it or not, everyone gets their day in court. There is a reason that people don't automatically have to pay defense costs when they lose. It shuts down the legal system to all but the wealthy.
I agree 100%... the _patent_ system needs to be fixed... not the legal system. | |
|  |  LinklistPremium join:2002-03-03 Longport, NJ kudos:5 | Re: Legal system not broken said by tcope:Like it or not, everyone gets their day in court. There is a reason that people don't automatically have to pay defense costs when they lose. It shuts down the legal system to all but the wealthy. Is that the motto of the ABA? Lawsuit losers SHOULD pay - it would cut way back on meritless lawsuits. -- »www.mittromney.com/s/repeal-and-···bamacare »www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care | |
|  |  |  tcopePremium join:2003-05-07 Sandy, UT kudos:2 | Re: Legal system not broken said by Linklist:Lawsuit losers SHOULD pay - it would cut way back on meritless lawsuits. So you think a piece of paper (the law you want) should automatically determine the loser's case had no merit? As mentioned, wealth parties have a much better chance of winning cases. This does not mean that the losers case was without merit. Actually, the loser could be correct and just did not have the funds to finance his/her case well enough to win. So in addition to that, you think those people should also be billed tens of thousands of dollars?
Considering that... go back and again read my post. It would shut down the court system to all but the most wealthy. Somehow this is better? | |
|  |  |  |  LinklistPremium join:2002-03-03 Longport, NJ kudos:5 | Re: Legal system not broken said by tcope:said by Linklist:Lawsuit losers SHOULD pay - it would cut way back on meritless lawsuits. So you think a piece of paper (the law you want) should automatically determine the loser's case had no merit? As mentioned, wealth parties have a much better chance of winning cases. This does not mean that the losers case was without merit. Actually, the loser could be correct and just did not have the funds to finance his/her case well enough to win. So in addition to that, you think those people should also be billed tens of thousands of dollars? Considering that... go back and again read my post. It would shut down the court system to all but the most wealthy. Somehow this is better? Does it matter? The small &/OR poor lose anyway. Why waste time on them clogging up the court system. Better to prevent the lawsuit in the 1st place. -- »www.mittromney.com/s/repeal-and-···bamacare »www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care | |
|  |  |  |  |  tcopePremium join:2003-05-07 Sandy, UT kudos:2 | Re: Legal system not broken Sorry, I thought you were interested in a real discussion. | |
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 KilroyPremium,MVM join:2002-11-21 Ann Arbor, MI | Not the solution Sorry, no matter how stupid it is you can't make the plaintiff cover the defendant costs. This prevents valid plantiffs from suing well funded defendants. It sounds great on the surface, but the impact will not be as intended.
Any time you go to court you're taking a chance, even with the best case you can lose. -- Want the shirt? - »www.despair.com/thedestructor.html Not afiliated or making any profit from sales | |
|  |  rradina join:2000-08-08 Chesterfield, MO | Re: Not the solution I agree but reluctantly. Trying to solve this would probably be impossible unless society is willing to accept a certain degree of collateral damage (i.e. less justice for the innocent). The current system (context greater than just lawsuits) is designed to error on the side of potentially letting the guilty go free so that every possible effort it made to guarantee justice for the innocent.
After saying that, perhaps we could help the situation through different kind of deterrent. Perhaps some kind of jeopardy for the attorney who enables the lawsuit? Not a fine but perhaps formal system that tracks reputation. If an attorney's reputation is at stake to the point that it interferes with their ability to practice (not because they are forbidden but because customers don't want them), perhaps the situation will police itself. It's not like we're going to run out of attorneys. There seem to be an endless supply and if we all did what we should in the voting booth, in a few years we could add another 535 to the body! Of course if we're tracking reputation, the 535 might not get customers either! | |
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 | | Hey Karl If you're against these stupid lawsuits then why are you an Apple Supporter and own an iPhone? Pot supporting the Kettle? | |
|  |  tcopePremium join:2003-05-07 Sandy, UT kudos:2 | Re: Hey Karl Why does owning a product mean you endorse all of the companies decisions or actions? Does this mean everyone needs to understand all of the companies views for every product they buy?
The two have nothing to do with each other. | |
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 scooper join:2000-07-11 Youngsville, NC kudos:2 | I think the Patent law system is so broken ... That the only solution is to declare all present patents null and void, and start all over. As in - do a cleanslate on all existing patent law as well... | |
|  | | No Internet The problem is the UPTCO does NOT have access to the Internet nor anything else except their database. So someone could have developed XX 20yearsa go and since it was NOT sent to the UPTCO they still grant the application from company XYZA the application.
This has happened several times over the last few years and only recently has any change started to be done. But they still have NO Internet Access. | |
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