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story category BitTorrent CEO: Comcast Should Come Clean
Meanwhile, company still trying to figure out how to make money...
(old news - 03:01PM Friday Mar 14 2008)
tags: Fileswapping · business · bandwidth · cable · networking
BitTorrent has for several years been trying to monetize developer Bram Cohen's brilliant achievement. They've shifted the client from open to closed source, embraced the entertainment industry, and recently launched an official BitTorrent store that didn't excite anyone. They've also had to do battle with ISP traffic shaping, trying to convince ISPs (unsuccessfully) that they should cache content instead of throttling BitTorrent traffic.

Silicon Alley Insider has posted an interview with BitTorrent CEO Doug Walker, who all but admits the fairly underwhelming store may be getting a significant makeover, or could be disappearing entirely. He also touches briefly on Comcast's traffic shaping and encryption, and had this to say about the whole Comcast controversy:
[Comcast is] actually stopping traffic by forging packets. And that's clearly unacceptable. They didn't deliver what they said they were going to deliver in the first place. . .The problem is they're not defining what that saturation point is and they're asking the world to rely on their expertise. If they're thinking about ways to manage networks they should do it openly and publicly, especially when they haven't been able to keep up to world standards in terms of the speeds of the networks in the first place.
He notes that Comcast traffic shaping isn't impacting their commercial 'BitTorrent DNA' service as they encrypt that traffic. He notes that the throttling is impacting mostly open-source clients, though they too have embraced encryption in order to skirt Comcast's Sandvine gear.

Related:
  1. Comcast Unfazed By Traffic Shaping Media Heat
  2. Comcast Tells FCC To Butt Out
  3. Comcast Gets Investigated While Cox Gets Free Pass
  4. Sandvine Jumps On 'Protocol Agnostic' Bandwagon
  5. Comcast Begins Testing 'Protocol Agnostic' Network Management
  6. Comcast, Cox, Trot Out Their Worst 'Bandwidth Hogs'
  7. Beating Comcast's Sandvine On Linux With Iptables
  8. Virgin Takes Aim At BitTorrent
Forums » BitTorrent CEO: Comcast Should Come Clean
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Post a:
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast

Truth will set you free

Comcrap isn 't throttling as they claim, they are resetting the modems at the user end for those Bittorrent users. The truth of the mater is that they have and continuing to oversell their badly-need-to-upgrade network and they can't support what they are selling. Truth will come out eventually. It always does.

jtt55

@comcast.net

Re: Truth will set you free

comcast does not block the traffic like it says. if they block it people would not be able to use it. this is the first time i heard someone say they are resetting the modem on the user side. hom come my modem never gets reset?sound like tigeron does not know anything about the comcast network.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA

Re: Truth will set you free

Sounds like you're not a technical user? No offense, but I can up with the imagery of what is happening when a RST occurs. It's basically picking you up and putting you back at the starting line... While this isn't "blocking", it is functional doing the same thing. Geesh, semantics.... Comcast is screwing with/messing up P2P.
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA
Go to YOU TUBE and find the video. There's a guy that is a bittorrent user and he is showing the proof of what comcast is doing.

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast

Uhm... *MY* connection can blast away(pun intended) as fast as the connection states - and thensome!
I get 17.3mbps on the 16mbps Blast service - I'll live!

Certainly is not oversold *HERE*.

As for the BT issue, doesn't affect me as I do not use BT.

What Comcast/Sandvine is doing - »Comcast is using Sandvine to manage P2P Connections

* "The interruption is accomplished by sending a perfectly forged TCP packet (correct peer, port, and sequence numbering) with the RST (reset) flag set. This packet is obeyed by the network stack or operating system which drops the connection."

No modem is getting reset, the connection to the peer is dropped.
The HSI connection is still intact.

* Credit funchords See Profile
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA

Re: Truth will set you free

You're in "Hercules, CA". I bet there not oversold either! 8-)

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: Truth will set you free

"No modem is getting reset, the connection to the peer is dropped."

That's as good as a reset to me, mate. It generally means I have to start afresh, which is the same thing that would happen if my modem reset. Comcast is merely testing the limits of semantics here, nothing else...

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA

Re: Truth will set you free

said by a333 See Profile :

That's as good as a reset to me, mate.
Dropping a single TCP connection and resetting your modem are not anything near the same thing. I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about.

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL


3 edits

Re: Truth will set you free

Ahhh, that's the problem, innit? You think I don't know what I'm talking about. I on the other hand, know what I'm talking about.
Now, to the facts.......
dropping a TCP connection sends you back to the starting point of a download, and makes you have to re-download your file, which is the same thing that takes place if I reset your modem.
And don't even get me started on the fact that they're actually impersonating you, and sending false messages to the server, and actually altering the server-client communications...........

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

said by Combat Chuck See Profile :

said by a333 See Profile :

That's as good as a reset to me, mate.
Dropping a single TCP connection and resetting your modem are not anything near the same thing. I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about.
IN THIS CASE, a333 See Profile has a point.

I have found and filed evidence with the FCC that Sandvine's own instructions tell ISPs to allow less than one uploading TCP connection (which would be zero, or one but only on a part-time basis).

So if you're uploading, and Sandvine is interrupting the only uploading TCP flow, they might as well be resetting the modem -- the net effect is the same.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIf63h0Mgyk

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA

Re: Truth will set you free

Comcast isn't resetting modems, some modems/routers and bittorrent don't play nicely together. Before you go about making a fool of yourself with your webcam perhaps you should go find out what a TCP packet with the reset flag set actually is (hint: it has nothing to do with your modem resetting).
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast


4 edits

Re: Truth will set you free

I'm not the one making a fool of myself as the evidence showing that Comcast is lying and its posted above before your very eyes. Its right in front of you. I work in IT and know what a badly oversold network is overwhelmed and needs upgrading looks like. Sad part is that many companies aren't enjoying the hefty profits Comcast has.
I wouldn't put it past the CEO of Comcast and his top executives pocketing the money INSTEAD of investing in the company's network infastructure. That's what happened to Adelphia and they got caught and are now in jail (which they rightfully deserved).

Watch the video and get educated about a monopoly that does not care about you.

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA

Re: Truth will set you free

said by TIGERON See Profile :

Its right in front of you.
A modem resetting every time someone tries to use BT is not evidence that the resetting is a malicious attempt to discourage BT. There are several modems that don't play nicely with bittorrent.

What this issue needs is a whole lot less people like you throwing FUD. You want to bash Comcast for what they are doing (ie: sending forged RST packets), great, but make sure you have a clue what you're talking about before you start promoting yourself as an authority on the issue just because you saw the word reset and noticed that your modem is resetting.
--
I never though that we would end up here;
When fascism comes as an angel of light;
Its license parading as tyranny drives forth its son.
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast


3 edits

Re: Truth will set you free

Do you work for Comcast? If not, then you have no idea of what you're talking about. And I do not claim to be an authority on the issue either. The guy who posted this video knows about this very issue AND also wrote the code to bypass the Comcast/Sandvine software and the evidence shows the they are actively resetting the modem. Also, the EFF has conducted their own tests PROVING what this guy in the video is saying.

Just like any computerized device that is interacting with Bittorrent, problems can arise. I am aware of the issue. Sounds like you're trying to blow FUD and smoke up people's ass just because your lips are super-glued on the ass of Comcast.

The video is clearly stating it. Also, the guy had the modem's firmware updated and kept his connections to a small, limited amount and STILL HE WAS ACTIVELY DISCONNECTED.

But this isn't the real issue is it?

Stop ignoring what is right in front of you. People like you are part of the reason why comcast has been getting away with this bullshit for as long as they have including lying about the fuzzy bandwidth limits, and yet the CEO is telling his investors that "there is plenty of bandwidth available" when there clearly isn't.

Not for much longer though.

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA


1 edit

Re: Truth will set you free

said by TIGERON See Profile :

And if there are several modems that don't play nice with Bittorrent, why don't you go on and list which brands that don't?
I did. You just chose not to visit the link.

I would like to point out that you don't work for Comcast either and are equally unqualified to state that the modem resetting is malicious. If they were doing it you would hear more about it, but so far you are the first person I have seen complain about it. Your evidence amounts to "I believe it so therefore it's true".

--edit--
quote from video discription
quote:
The modem are line are not bad. Comcast was sending me false packets so I edited my modem protocol to get around that. So now they just restart my modem when i am torrenting.
"Edited my modem protocol"??? what is that even supposed to mean, it makes no sense. The guy is an idiot trying to use jargon to make himself seem knowledgeable.
--
I never though that we would end up here;
When fascism comes as an angel of light;
Its license parading as tyranny drives forth its son.
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast

Re: Truth will set you free

Guess what I did visit the link and knew about that a long while ago.

It is malicious what Comcast is doing paint it any color you want. They are resetting the connection by any means possible including sending a signal to the modem to reset. The video evidence does not lie. Its right there for you to see.

I would never want to work for a company like Comcast EVER and don't care to.
However, I would like to point out that YOU HOWEVER DO WORK FOR COMCAST AND YOU ARE FINANCIALLY MOTIVATED TO DEFEND THEM AT ALL COSTS.

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA

Re: Truth will set you free

said by TIGERON See Profile :

They are resetting the connection by any means possible including sending a signal to the modem to reset. The video evidence does not lie. Its right there for you to see.
The only evidence in that video is the fact that the modem is resetting for some reason that is far from clear, it could be anything from Comcasts doing to someone off camera pulling the plug to a defective modem. But nothing is conclusive as to why.

said by TIGERON See Profile :

However, I would like to point out that YOU HOWEVER DO WORK FOR COMCAST AND YOU ARE FINANCIALLY MOTIVATED TO DEFEND THEM AT ALL COSTS.
Right so now we're resorting to that.

Listen kid, I've been here 6 and a half years (more than that actually under a different long since dead sign on), you're pushing what, 4 days; just who do you work for?

My posting history is viewable by all and I think it's quite clear that I don't work for Comcast; I have defended some of their business practices that some people find unsavory and I have criticized them for others (the latter less so publicly since there's no shortage of people who are more than willing to do so and often by the time I show up, anything I might have said has been said). About the only thing you can say I am is pro-limited government intervention in the private sector. Quite frankly there are hundreds of other people here that fit the "Comcast employee shill" mold better than me, either you already know that or you're very, very gullible. You want to bash Comcast go right ahead but you need to do so based on what they are doing and not because it's trendy to do so thus you're willing to throw reality out the window.
--
I never though that we would end up here;
When fascism comes as an angel of light;
Its license parading as tyranny drives forth its son.
jaminus

join:2004-10-14
Arlington, VA

He linked to the modems that are incompatible with Bittorrent in his post.

And as for the YouTube video, it's just one guy who is showing his modem resetting when he opens Bittorrent. Despite this one anecdote, there is no concrete evidence that Comcast is resetting modems. What IS concrete is that Comcast is sending forged RST packets, which are completely different from resetting a modem.

This issue has been reported and analyzed extensively. It doesn't take a Comcast employee to know what Comcast is doing, and what Comcast isn't doing. Resetting modems is something Comcast is not doing. Some guy on YouTube who posted a video doesn't mean a whole lot compared to the thousands of users who have recorded TCP resets when using bittorrent on Comcast.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
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said by TIGERON See Profile :

I work in IT and know what a badly oversold network is overwhelmed and needs upgrading looks like.
If you relate CPE resets to network oversubscription, I would guess you work for an IT helpdesk. How close am I?
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA

Re: Truth will set you free

Helpdesk is one of MANY I do. Prefer working on hardware to be honest. Its more money and very challenging.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by dadkins See Profile :

No modem is getting reset, the connection to the peer is dropped.
The HSI connection is still intact.
Call a spade a spade.
simply put it is a denial of service to the bittorrent protocol. now not all of us have DDL sites so we have to use BT.
-
net neutrality anyone?
comcast
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth
TIGERON

join:2008-03-11
Pacifica, CA

Re: Truth will set you free

The modem is clearly being reset. The video evidence doesn't lie. Even the EFF conducted a similar test. The ones that have financial motive to conveniently ignore the truth are quick to dismiss it when it is front of them.

BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

irony is ironic

"BitTorrent CEO: Comcast Should Come Clean"

the CEO of a company that makes most of it's income on people stealling is telling someone to come clean?

DrModem
Premium
join:2006-10-19
USA

Re: irony is ironic

Well I don't see any of the pirates hiding the fact they are pirates.
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA
Clearly you didn't read the article- they're not making any money :P

Truewesterner

@bittorrent.com

BitTorrent, Inc. does not get any income from illegal uses of the BitTorrent client. The client is free to download and users are free to use it any way they wish. BitTorrent, Inc. is monetized by sale and rental downloads of legally licensed movies and TV shows from their website, advertising on the site and in ad-supported streaming video, as well by sales of their BitTorrent DNA content delivery service and licensing of the BitTorrent technology to router and other device manufacturers.

Rexter
YeeHaw

join:2002-11-17
cloud 9

Re: irony is ironic

Don't cloud this issue with the facts!
quatrix
Premium
join:2005-02-11
Davie, FL

Okay

"BitTorrent has for several years been trying to monetize developer Bram Cohen's brilliant achievement."

I stopped reading when I saw that load of crap right there.

Simba7

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT
·Bresnan Online


1 edit

Bittorrent != Piracy

There are alot of legit uses for BitTorrent Technology. Jeez.

I'm sick and tired of someone saying "BitTorrent" and most people immediately think they're pirating something. There's alot of sites that use it to speed up downloading of large software packages and ISO's (ex. UBCD, SysRescCD, Linux/*BSD Distros).

They're starting to sound like the RIAA and MPAA. Technology and change is BAD. If it wasn't for the old Napster and some other sites, MP3 wouldn't be widespread and things like the iPod, the Rio, and the Zune wouldn't exist.

Think about it. Sometimes things just need a jumpstart to get accepted into the community.
--
Bresnan 15M/1M | My Computer (P4 1.8GHz, 3GB RAM, 80+160GB HDDs, Vista) | Wife's Computer (Duron 2.15GHz, 1GB RAM, 40GB HDD, Vista) | Router (P2 450MHz, 224MB RAM, 40GB HDD, AT-2560FX, 2x DE504, Atheros AR5212, DGE-500T, EtherLink III running Gentoo)

See 8 replies to this post

I Use BitTorrent

@bittorrent.com

Net Neutrality Matters

hey quatrix, what have you developed that has impacted the way people use the internet?

For the rest of you who are confused, BitTorrent is a tool and the user is the one who exploit's the use of that tool. BT does not host illegal files nor do they maintain a torrent site which provides links to illegal content.

It all comes down to this, If Comcast say's I can have 16 mb/sec download speed then give me the bandwidth regardless of what protocol I am using.


See 7 replies to this post

JethroBodine

@comcast.net

When life hands you a lemon...

make lemonade.

Seriously, if Comcast is really so bad, it should be a slam dunk for anyone to have a T3 installed at their home and set up a neighborhood WISP. You can sell symmetrical 10mb uncapped all-you can-eat service for $30/mo. Before you know it, you'll expand and cover the whole town. You'll be as rich as Gill Bates.

This idea is so brilliant, I might even try it. Does anyone know how much a T3 costs per month and how many p2p thieves I can serve without service degradation?

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: When life hands you a lemon...

then explain what secret the telcos (cough Verizon) have, that lets them offer truly unlimited service through DSL or FiOS.
The answer is that they actually have WAY more fiber than all the cablecos put together! Heck, they even own all the undersea cables, and even international assets. It's just funny to watch cable advertise more fiber than telcos, while they don't even come close to the backbone capacity of telcos.

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL

so get Paxio, or FiOS. Last time I checked, if you live in CA,about $500/month nets you real unlimited, unfiltered, net access at, lemme check.... yea 1 Gig/sec. AND it comes with uptime/connect speed guarantees.
You're welcome,
Have a nice day..

telcolackey
The Truth? You can't handle the truth

join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA


1 edit
said by JethroBodine :

make lemonade.

Seriously, if Comcast is really so bad, it should be a slam dunk for anyone to have a T3 installed at their home and set up a neighborhood WISP. You can sell symmetrical 10mb uncapped all-you can-eat service for $30/mo. Before you know it, you'll expand and cover the whole town. You'll be as rich as Gill Bates.

This idea is so brilliant, I might even try it. Does anyone know how much a T3 costs per month and how many p2p thieves I can serve without service degradation?
Let's see... a T3 w/ ISP (vs just a circuit) can cost as much as $10,000 a month for a single user. Assuming you already have the capital for a wireless infrastructure that can reach a large number of people, you would need over 300 homes to get the price down to $30 / month and if everyone is the 7x24 type that would put their speeds at about 135Kbps / user. Brilliant?

EDIT: Oh yeah... and as with all Internet services, the T3 speed is not guaranteed because it is over subscribed into a router with a number of other T1s, T3s etc.

--
"Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." - Dinah Craik

Tails

join:2007-09-25
Sanford, NC
·Windstream

Sigh...This is only an excuse to...

...Throttle other things on their network and label that as "reasonable networking" management. P2P is just a smokescreen for what Comcast wants to do in the future. I would not be surprised if sites such as Youtube start getting throttled because of "reasonable networking". That is what is happening correct? RST packets drop connection on UPLOAD speed? Correct me if I am wrong fellow forumers =D.

Another thing...I don't quite understand why users can't just throttle their own connection and use that throttled speed for bittorrent, not the ENTIRE speed. Wouldn't it also be better if Comcast just reserved a certain amount of bandwidth for each customer or is this impossible with cable? Just curious really.

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL


1 edit

Re: Sigh...This is only an excuse to...

actually, most do. Almost every BitTorrent client I've come across lets you limit the seeding (uploading) bandwidth. Problem is, Sandvine blocks p2p packets indiscriminately. Moment it detects p2p packets, it basically impersonates you and sends a fake termination packet to the other end of the line. Now, I myself don't use Comcrap, but that's my understanding on the issue, so please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
Sad, really..
and, as to the question about cable, problem is that cable (and DSL) are based on overselling. Your average DOSCSIS 2.0 node can only push out about 40-50 megs downstream per channel, to around a couple of hundred users, so you can understand the problem here. cablecos have for too long just underestimated the future "killer apps" of the internet, and are now paying the price, or will very soon.

funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
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Re: Sigh...This is only an excuse to...

said by a333 See Profile :

actually, most do. Almost every BitTorrent client I've come across lets you limit the seeding (uploading) bandwidth. Problem is, Sandvine blocks p2p packets indiscriminately. Moment it detects p2p packets, it basically impersonates you and sends a fake termination packet to the other end of the line. Now, I myself don't use Comcrap, but that's my understanding on the issue, so please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
100% Correct on all counts.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY

Re: Sigh...This is only an excuse to...

cheers, funchords

funchords
Hello
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said by Tails See Profile :

I don't quite understand why users can't just throttle their own connection and use that throttled speed for bittorrent, not the ENTIRE speed. Wouldn't it also be better if Comcast just reserved a certain amount of bandwidth for each customer or is this impossible with cable? Just curious really.
It is possible. Right now, most ISPs ignore the customers' QOS flags. If just 3-4 of the largest ISPs would respect the QOS flags set by the users, users and software vendors would enable this in droves. BitTorrent users don't want downloading/uploading to affect their surfing, either, so it is simply in their own best interests not to try to beat that system. And knowing the app programmers as I do, the last thing they want to do is to hammer a congested network.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

espaeth
Digital Plumber
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Re: Sigh...This is only an excuse to...

said by funchords See Profile :

It is possible. Right now, most ISPs ignore the customers' QOS flags. If just 3-4 of the largest ISPs would respect the QOS flags set by the users, users and software vendors would enable this in droves.
This won't ever work because you can't trust end-users to play fairly. QoS (and its subsequent failure to maintain fairness) isn't a new concept, just look back 20 years ago to Frame relay networks with their incredibly simple QoS mechanism of "Discard Eligible" frames.

With frame relay you got a port speed (say 1.544mbps for a full T1) and a Committed Information Rate (CIR) which was some fraction of that pipe (say 128k). The basic premise was that data delivery was always guaranteed up to your CIR, and anything above that rate would be delivered if the bandwidth was available. Network customers were to configure their hardware to mark traffic in excess of the CIR as "Discard Eligible" so that the customer could maintain control over what traffic would be dropped if things got congested on the frame cloud.

It didn't take companies long to figure out, however, that the frame switches purged all DE traffic first in a congested condition. What that meant is that if you had a customer who didn't mark any packets as DE and pumped data into the frame relay cloud at their full port speed creating a congestion situation, every other company who was playing by the rules and marking their traffic as DE would have their frames tossed to make room for the rogue customer's flood of traffic. Carriers figured this out and started not trusting customers to mark their traffic and handled the DE enforcement themselves at ingress into the frame network.

Besides the issues of trusting clients to accurately mark their traffic, you also would have issues implementing this on most broadband networks because the aggregation hardware doesn't have the memory / processing capability to handle the queue structures required for implementing something like Class-Based Weighted Fair Queuing. For example, most MSOs today are configuring their CMTS hardware with a single FIFO queue for each cable modem user. The packet scheduler then only has the somewhat easy task of going round robin through each cable modem's queue to pass traffic out to the egress interface. To do multi-tier service like you are suggesting, that would require the establishment of multiple queues per cable modem attachment. Due to the extra memory and packet scheduler resources required to run the increased number of queues, MSOs would need to drastically reduce the density of how many users they can attach to a given CMTS thus increasing their operating costs.
aguiar0016

join:2006-01-23
New Bedford, MA

anyway around it?

comcast has just cut down my usage of this as of last Tuesday. Not happy with it at all. They have basically cut down to nothing.

Is there anyway around it?
Forums » BitTorrent CEO: Comcast Should Come Clean


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