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Bright House Slams Verizon On FiOS Grounding
Demands Florida PSC halt FiOS deployment....purely for safety reasons of course
by Karl Bode 04:38PM Thursday Dec 11 2008 Tipped by Beachie See Profile
Earlier this year, a routine New York State Public Service Commission inspection found a significant number of FiOS installs had not been grounded and/or bonded, though Verizon has told us nobody had been hurt. Still, they don't technically meet the electrical code, so in order to get a NYC FiOSTV franchise, Verizon agreed to go back and revisit every single install in the State -- in some instances giving out refunds. While you'd guess that ungrounded installs are common in other States as well, so far other State regulators haven't shown concern, something Bright House Networks is apparently trying to change.

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In Florida, where Bright House is trying to fend off FiOS competition, Verizon is already under fire from Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum for neglecting traditional landline and DSL support and maintenance. Bright House apparently thought it would be a good time to tell these same regulators Bright House technicians are finding that a high number of the customers who are switching back to cable from FTTH had ungrounded connections. According to Tampa Bay Online, Bright House is asking the State PSC to halt FiOS installs and investigate:
quote:
In a survey of 1,963 homes where customers switched back to Bright House, 19 percent had wires left ungrounded, Bright House claimed in a filing with the state this week. Bright House officials say they've complained to Verizon about the issue, with little response. "The net effect is to create a serious fire and electrocution hazard at potentially thousands of customers' premises throughout Tampa Bay," the company wrote in state filings.
Kind of a win-win situation for Bright House, who has clearly been watching the events in New York. Not only do they get to play good Samaritan, protecting customers and their technicians from possible (albeit rare when talking about FTTH ONTs) electrocution, but they may be able to slow FiOS encroachment into their territory. It's certainly cheaper than deploying DOCSIS 3.0.

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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

1 edit

What needs to be grounded?

I had FiOS and am confused as to what required grounding. You have non-conductive fiber coming in the from the street and my install looked like the ONT itself is grounded through the AC/DC adapter. So what needs to be grounded?

bobjohnson
Premium
join:2007-02-03
Orlando, FL
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·T-Mobile US
·Sprint Mobile Br..

1 edit

Re: What needs to be grounded?

From what i see of the installs they still ground the ONT to the 6 wire the same as we would a ground block with cable... So far I have seen quite a few installs grounded to water pipes and a few not grounded at all.

Edit: To say that that there is a distance limitation also...

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH
The metalic sheeting that protects the fiber drop needs to be bonded and grounded per NEC

PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3

Re: What needs to be grounded?

There is NO metal in the drop. There are some drops that are buried that have a metal wire bonded to the side. This is used for tracing only and is not attached at either end.

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: What needs to be grounded?

Yes there is, i sugest u retrain ur self.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

Re: What needs to be grounded?

Prove it

its fiber thus non conductive

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: What needs to be grounded?

the fiber its self is. But the armored cable sheath that its enclosed, needs to be, unless they are refering to the fiber drops that are inside conduit, which i dont think had tracer wire sheathing or anything.

PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3

Re: What needs to be grounded?

Educate yourself. Having spliced and cut down many of these
THERE IS NO METAL IN THEM! The are wrapped in Kevlar. Also very few of the tracable buried service feeds are actually in use.

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: What needs to be grounded?

Key word there, ur ferering to aerial, im refering to burried
ramslt8

join:2007-12-07
Lutz, FL

1 recommendation

Re: What needs to be grounded?

Buried drops that are used in Florida that do have a 24ga "tracer" wire ARE grounded at the ONT or to the MGN at the house per Verizon's Bonding and Grounding Rules. There were some early installs (2005) that the fiber did not have a tracer so a 3 pair copper drop was buried along side of the fiber for locating purposes but those copper drops were not connected to the house they were just cut off at ground level.
Trust me we are in the LIGHTNING CAPITAL and we (Verizon)along with Tellabs have tried everything possible in trying to prevent ONT's from getting taken out by lightning. In fact the new 612A that is coming out is a result from Tellab's testing in Florida, 612A will have additional surge suppression built into the POTS connections.
sneakaround

join:2001-06-19
Staten Island, NY

1 edit

1 recommendation

no...... there is no metal in a fiber drop. some have a tracer attached to the side but there is no metal in the drop. I have cut and stripped many of them.

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: What needs to be grounded?

is not what?

fiostech 19064

@verizon.net

1 recommendation

Re: What needs to be grounded?

Goose you have no idea what you are talking about.THERE IS NO METAL IN A FIBER LOOP. There are fiber loops with a tracer on the side used for locating on buried jobs.

Bonding

@rr.com
The AC/DC adapter ground doesn't count and all communication systems needed to be bonded to the common electrical ground to meet code requirements, simple as that.

Here's a general summary of what's required:
»www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive···0701.htm

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

Re: What needs to be grounded?

My point is if it's fiber, what are you grounding? From some other posts, I gather there is a metal reenforcement in the fiber drop.
bogey7806

join:2004-03-19
Here
kudos:1

Re: What needs to be grounded?

A conductive material is going from the inside to the outside of a building. It needs to be grounded.
ashworth

join:2001-10-06
Pittsburgh, PA
You are absolutely right that there are no conductive components of fiber(glass,rubber,plastic). But Verizon is required to properly ground ONT, if outside(lightning), the AC/DC outlet will only ground your ONT if it's mounted inside because electricity to the home is already grounded.

ftth installer

@npgco.com
Its not so much the fiber connection that NEC is worried about, as the glass is not conductive, however, the FTTH Unit on the side of the house converts the digital light signal to digital electrical signal, which is then delivered to the TVs for FiOS TV via RG-6 Coaxial cable, Telephones Via round 4 pair in older homes, in more recent homes CAT5e is the normal for home phone wiring. Both phone and coaxial drops must be grounded. grounding through the ONT grounds all services offered by FiOS internet, phone and TV. When Verizon comes in and installs there services, they disconnect the cable tv drop and the phones POTS line, and run the wires to the ONT, thus disconnecting any ground from the internal wiring of the house. It might not seem like a huge problem, but not grounding the coaxial alone can turn into a horrible issue. Appliances such as TVs, answering machines, fax machines, computers can all back feed voltage through the respective lines. as a former cable TV tech, I experienced many service calls, that were for "bad/Snowy picture." I would start my trouble shooting checking signal levels through the house, and at the main splitter, and would receive a shock, usually not strong but once it was a good wake up call. Come to find out, a tv in the customers home would have a issue called a hot chassis, and would back feed voltage on the coax, trying to get to ground. One home had no ground and actually did damage to the cable main line tap by feeding ac power back on to the dc powered system, the tap melted like it was solder. They say electricity travels the shortest path to ground, i would say it takes what ever path it can find, with most going the shortest route. Also its safer to ground something that might not need it, then "knock on wood" a fire happens at a home and the fire investigator find that an electrical system "high or low voltage" is not grounded that could screw you out of your home owners insurance. leveling blame on the company that was responsible for verifying there equipment is grounded.
Test99
Premium
join:2003-04-24
San Jose, CA
kudos:1
I think it's pretty clear that from BrightHouse's perspective it's Verizon that needs to be grounded!

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

Shocked!

What is most surprising is that there are customers switching back to cable after having FTTH.

bobjohnson
Premium
join:2007-02-03
Orlando, FL
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·T-Mobile US
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Re: Shocked!

said by jmn1207:

What is most surprising is that there are customers switching back to cable after having FTTH.
I thought the same thing... 99.9% of the reinstalls that i have done were because of bad billing and even worse customer service... According to the customers, the speed isn't worth the hassle.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

Re: Shocked!

I have family in Orlando that have Bright House.(internet only) It really is a solid product for them, and in general, this company has a very good customer service rating. I can understand why some people would be completely irked by Verizon after coming from Bright House, with regards to billing issues and customer service.
nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
kudos:8

1 recommendation

said by jmn1207:

What is most surprising is that there are customers switching back to cable after having FTTH.
I was thinking the same thing. I am stuck with Comcrap now because I moved to non-FTTH territory, but would switch back to Fios in a heartbeat if I could.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation

imwhite

@comcast.net

While its true...

All the companies have faulty grounding installations, usually by a rushed tech or even simply ignorance. I know cable still grounds to water taps in certain situations and 99% of them are not up to NEC spec. They are just picking on Verizon at the moment, if they inspected all the companies that harsh youd see plenty of whining about them too.

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

Re: While its true...

said by imwhite :

All the companies have faulty grounding installations, usually by a rushed tech or even simply ignorance. I know cable still grounds to water taps in certain situations and 99% of them are not up to NEC spec. They are just picking on Verizon at the moment, if they inspected all the companies that harsh youd see plenty of whining about them too.
You are probably right, however, why has Verizon not responded in kind by reporting those shoddy cable installations that they are replacing? While this is certainly an attack on Verizon in an attempt to stall the spread of FiOS, there is some legitimate concern. The motive behind the reporting might not be as noble, but you can't knock Bright House because it benefits them directly.

ATTek
Got Sand?
Premium
join:2000-12-13
Glendora, CA

1 recommendation

Re: While its true...

said by jmn1207:

why has Verizon not responded in kind by reporting those shoddy cable installations that they are replacing?
Maybe for the same reason I don't: I wasn't aware that it's my job to snitch on the code violations of other companies. I don't squeal to code enforcement when customer's houses have code issues either. This is a cheap shot at VZ to try to slow whatever competition they may represent, nothing more. To say that any of these big corps do anything based on moral fiber is laughable.
--
What does THIS button do.....

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
kudos:1

Re: While its true...

The codes are there for a reason, oftentimes because of safety issues. Doesn't this contradict your own moral fiber by ignoring such violations in favor of some fraternity of installation technicians? If you are correcting these violations and getting them up to code, than you are a great person that deserves much praise, but that does nothing for other customers if you don't report them.

cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3

1 edit

2 recommendations

Cable would rather slam verizon than beat their offerings

Why do we constantly hear stories from these whining cable companies complaining about Verizon? Instead of spending time and money(Comcast) how about funnel that into their networks so they can actually produce a level of service that matches or exceeds Verizon.

Verizon = 100+ Linear HD channels plus HD-VOD. Multi Room DVR, Interactive Guide with web based DVR programming, movie art, games, widgets with news, stocks, traffic, weather... 50+ mbps internet speeds EASY. 100+ tested and is ready to go when the market's ready.

Cable = 10 - 60 Linear HD channels (very area dependent). Lack of consistent lineups. HD-VOD area dependant. No Multi Room DVR. Plain Guide with no frills. Maybe 20-30 mbps tops. Eventually it will get better, but boy would they rather talk the talk than walk the walk.

charles38

@rr.com

fiber optics

the verizon fios is no different than copper being used from comcast and twc,so you need full power to get the cable running.for example,when you unscrew the copper cable line to the adapter in your home,go ahead and touch that copper cable line thats coming in your room and you will feel the power of cable.i would imagine its the sameway with fiostv with the fiber optics,so the power must need be grounded.but it sounds like to me that bright house are just whining and complaining trying to use the govt of fl to go after verizon because they offer better services than bright house.bright house knows,thats why they are using this cheap trick against verizon there chief competitor

c0c0c0
c0c0c0 is the color of my soul.

join:2004-12-20
Lexington, OK

Re: fiber optics

If you are feeling any power, electric current, or shock coming from the copper pigtail or the connector, then you have a grounding issue my friend. You may need to call customer service or possibly an electrician to fix that.

LordFlux

join:2005-04-20

Nice shootin', Tex.

That looks like Egon in the picture posted with the article. Get back to busting ghosts and leave the FiOS installs to the professionals!
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Broken Record

Fios box outputs to coax lines. coax lines run through house. TV's plug into coax lines. TV's plug into AC. therefore box must be grounded. It's simple. Otherwise a bad set top box or TV could light up the coax until you find out the "hard way". case closed.
russotto

join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

Re: Broken Record

said by beaups:

Fios box outputs to coax lines. coax lines run through house. TV's plug into coax lines. TV's plug into AC. therefore box must be grounded. It's simple. Otherwise a bad set top box or TV could light up the coax until you find out the "hard way". case closed.
This is not the reason for the bonding requirement. It's purely a vestige of codes assuming that metallic wiring is used.
ramslt8

join:2007-12-07
Lutz, FL

19%

"In a survey of 1,963 homes where customers switched back to Bright House, 19 percent had wires left ungrounded"

OK, so of 1,963 homes, roughly 327 were found to have a ground problem. And FIOS is installed in over how many thousands of homes in the Brighthouse area. Heck I think our yard alone probably did around 15,000 installs last year,(thats 50 techs averaging 1 install per day)so on that # we are talking around 2% of installs, and that is probably less than most other companies grounding violations. Does Brighthouse want to open up this can of worms. Look what happened in New York after the Union started doing there own investigating of the cable companies installs.
»Unions Want Improper Cable Grounding Inspected, Too
I have no problems with Brighthouse, we are all just trying to make a living doing the best we can, Brighthouse along with Verizon has used contractors now and in the past and I have personally seen some of the cheap work some(not all) (contractors) do and are most likely the reason for violations (and yes I know there are actual employees who do cheap work to). Can't we all just get along?
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: 19%

But Cable Companies in NY were not checked. Only VZ was checked. The General public does not trust the unions so why should we bitch when they say "cable isn't properly grounded" hell especially when they can't even ground their own installs.

the PSC just wanted them checked and regrounded.

ANONONONONO

@verizon.net

What!

The ont should be bonded always. Verizon procedure is to bond all ONT's installed.Bonding the Ont also bonds the coax since it connected to the ont. Just like when cable company bonds their splitter outside. Also Brighthouse may be playing with fire because they also have a lot of unbonded splitters at their dmrc outside the house.

originalvztech

@verizon.net

Grounding entirely VZ fault?

Has anybody wondered how many of these nongrounded ONTS are actually Verizon's fault? There's no doubt in my mind that some techs have left some ONTS without proper grounding/bonding, however I also believe some of them are not due to Verizon's negligence. Who comes out to the customer's location after the customer switches to Verizon? Answer: the cable company. Whose to say that the cable company technicians didn't remove a ground that was properly installed when they came to disconnect their service? I know this is not the case with the majority of ungrounded installs but it wouldn't surprise me if some cable techs are doing this which makes it seem like more of a problem than it is. For example I did an install this week where it was obvious that Directv had taken the cable company's ground wire to ground their own equipment, leaving the cable ungrounded. I'm not saying Verizon is a saint when it comes to grounding, but neither is the cable company, and I don't think Verizon is fully responsible for all of the ungrounded ONTs.

Also can we lay the issue to rest as to why FiOS needs to be grounded? It is not the fiber being grounded it is the ONT because it is an electical component being connected to electrical equipment.
I don't understand why people keep bringing up the "I dunno why glass needs to be grounded" argument. Its not the glass, its the electronics being used by the glass.

••••
Answer Guy

join:2006-07-28
Grass Lake, MI

Be Careful!

Anyone that complains about a competitor had better make sure their shit don't stink too.

BryanOnComc

join:2007-06-22
Brandon, FL
Reviews:
·Comcast

Laugh out Loud

LoL, millions, and millions of cable installs are not grounded out there,

The ratio vs the new fios installs is overwelming.

Brighthouse will try anything to get ahead. Fiber is the way of the future, not coax bs.
--
The Maxx
max dn 22mbps / max up 19.7mbps

xpbx
220, 221, Whatever It Takes.
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·Comcast

all i can say is....

people who live in glass houses (dont have to worry about bonding issues) lol but seriously, they should look at their own installs before casting aspersions on vz. most clecs and other competitors will do/say anything to stem the inevitablity of FIOS rolling thru whats left of their turf.

Trinityred

@verizon.net

Fios Grounding

I live in NY and just had a tech at my house to install a ground to my fios system that was installed 2 years ago. I wasn't home at the time, my wife was. When I went to my basement to see what they did, I noticed the ground that they use is actually some sort of plug that they plug into the nearest outlet and uses the ground off your electrical outlet. That's all fine and good, but one problem; my house was built in the 1920s and I have only changed over about 90% of the outlets in my house to grounded outlets. The other 10%? My basement. So with a glowing red light on the grounding plug that states theirs a problem with the ground the tech told my wife "its all good" and left.
Now Im a service tech for cctv/alarm systems, and I can honestly say that in every service driven business your going to have 3 types of installer; (a) the qualified professional installer (which are rare), (b) the badly trained tech that took the 2 hour course before getting to your house, (c) the tech that hates his job/life and just wants to get in and out of your house as quick as possible.
Now I'm not bashing fios techs only, from working in peoples houses Ive seen some really nasty stuff done by the cable guys and satellite guys also. My grounding problem I can fix myself. But for the rest of you; do your homework and buyer beware.

Rachel

@airband.net

An underhanded attempt to hit at Verizon

Bright House's claims are just ridiculous. As has been very clear from the postings here that the FiOS optical wires can't electrocute anyone. Verizon does regular audits to make sure their installations are save and done correctly. Bright House is realizing people are ditching their inferior product for FiOS and now they are striking out at the competition. It is sad actually. Customers are trying to tell Bright House "We're just not that into anymore."