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story category Britain Returns To 'Three Strikes' Plan
Who cares if it's technically impossible or expensive for ISPs?
03:24PM Wednesday Aug 26 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · Fileswapping · business
While the entertainment industry dreams of booting heavy P2P users from ISP networks (ignoring the fact these are potential customers), ISPs don't want the extra cost of playing content babysitter. ISPs like citing a 2008 UK study that claims 72% of P2P users would stop with just a warning, or a similar 2009 study that puts that number closer to 64%. Of course the data seems a little suspect, given that ISPs have been forwarding toothless DMCA letters for years, with only explosive P2P growth to show for it.

Other recent studies (funded by media industry lawyers) suggest that 80% would pay attention if the letter was accompanied by a threat of disconnection. The problem has been there's simply too many holes in the idea. Smaller ISPs can't afford to play copyright cop, nobody seems to know who'd track repeat offenders across ISPs, and piracy detection systems are notoriously unreliable. That apparently doesn't matter to UK lawmakers, who revived an idea this week to boot P2P users from ISP networks:
today the government will take the unusual step of proposing much stricter rules midway through the Digital Britain consultation process. Illegal filesharers will still get warning letters but if they continue to swap copyrighted material they could have their internet connection temporarily severed, although it may be possible to retain basic access to online public services.
This move comes after British lawmakers last June ruled out employing broadband disconnection as a penalty for P2P use because it was excessive. The Guardian suggests that the three strikes plan resurfaced after British politicians spent some quality vacation time with David Geffen while on holiday, though lawmakers deny the allegation. Regardless, there's still seems to be a powerful unreality forcefield surrounding British lawmakers, who don't quite grasp the logistical nightmare of tracking technically sophisticated P2P users across ISPs.

Related:
  1. Thomas To Appeal Huge RIAA Fines
  2. Swedish ISP Fights New Piracy Law
  3. Pirate Bay Sale All But Dead
  4. Download The Pirate Bay Before It's Gone
  5. Pirate Bay Gets Yanked Offline
  6. Barry Manilow Highlights 'Three Strikes' Law Stupidity
  7. British Cops, Spies Oppose 'Three Strikes'
  8. Will 'Three Strikes' Come To The United States?
Forums » Britain Returns To 'Three Strikes' Plan
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anonny55

@lamrc.com

first warning

I'm surprised the % isnt higher for people stopping after the first notice. Pehaps more than expected are actually just downloading legal content!
gorehound

join:2009-06-19
Portland, ME

Re: first warning

I think that because of laws like this we the consumers in this world should protest these large studios by only buying used products so they won't get any money.

I am not telling you all to not go and buy movies and CD's I am saying to just go and buy them used at a local store or Amazon/Internet sites.

I really am getting to hate the large useless corporate film and music studios.They ripoff their own artists and us too with overpriced stuff and they also lobby goverments to make laws like what this post is about in the UK.

I truly am boycotting all of these shysters.

IPingUPing
N4BFR
Premium
join:2002-08-30
Smyrna, GA
clubs:

Re: first warning

So, you only buy something used. How does that model work in the long term? No new content since that's how the "large useless corporate film and music studios" actually pay people to write and produce content.

You are saying there is some value to the content, because you are willing to pay something for it. What's the middle ground then where people get paid for what they do?

DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
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join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink

3 strikes with what proof?

How about having to PROVE it was done. I don't share files, but someone's say-so should just be ignored. Have specifics that can be matched by the ISP for starters. Oh, wait, ISPs aren't judges/juries. So go get a legal verdict first.
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k1ll3rdr4g0n

join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL

Re: 3 strikes with what proof?

said by DataDoc See Profile :

How about having to PROVE it was done. I don't share files, but someone's say-so should just be ignored. Have specifics that can be matched by the ISP for starters. Oh, wait, ISPs aren't judges/juries. So go get a legal verdict first.
Do you think the government cares about proof? What universe are you living in?
It's like speeding tickets, all it takes is a cops word to convict you. "Yeah he was speeding", boom $100 fine. I have gotten 1 speeding ticket, but I was able to take a class for it, but if I ever end up in court I would ask that actual evidence be presented that I sped.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast

Re: 3 strikes with what proof?

said by k1ll3rdr4g0n See Profile :

It's like speeding tickets, all it takes is a cops word to convict you. "Yeah he was speeding", boom $100 fine.
OT, but technically that's not true. You receive a court date when you receive your speeding ticket. You have a choice to appear in front of a judge, or admit guilt and accept the fine. If the police officer incorrectly fined you, you have an opportunity to defend your position.

jimi419
Dadof3

join:2002-03-14
Round Lake, IL
clubs:

said by k1ll3rdr4g0n See Profile :

said by DataDoc See Profile :

How about having to PROVE it was done. I don't share files, but someone's say-so should just be ignored. Have specifics that can be matched by the ISP for starters. Oh, wait, ISPs aren't judges/juries. So go get a legal verdict first.
Do you think the government cares about proof? What universe are you living in?
It's like speeding tickets, all it takes is a cops word to convict you. "Yeah he was speeding", boom $100 fine. I have gotten 1 speeding ticket, but I was able to take a class for it, but if I ever end up in court I would ask that actual evidence be presented that I sped.
ummm no the cop usually has clocked you with a radar gun which is enough evidence to convict you with so it isnt just his say so as you put

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans

join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
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Re: 3 strikes with what proof?

Being clocked with a radar gun isn't enough to convict still. The cop has to prove that they were stationed in an area free of interference(noted in their duty book), that the reading was accurate, and that the gun itself was accurate according to the police force/services polices. On top of that there's some other misc stuff that has to be noted in the duty book depending on the force/service for it to be accurate as well.
--
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k1ll3rdr4g0n

join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL

said by jimi419 See Profile :

said by k1ll3rdr4g0n See Profile :

said by DataDoc See Profile :

How about having to PROVE it was done. I don't share files, but someone's say-so should just be ignored. Have specifics that can be matched by the ISP for starters. Oh, wait, ISPs aren't judges/juries. So go get a legal verdict first.
Do you think the government cares about proof? What universe are you living in?
It's like speeding tickets, all it takes is a cops word to convict you. "Yeah he was speeding", boom $100 fine. I have gotten 1 speeding ticket, but I was able to take a class for it, but if I ever end up in court I would ask that actual evidence be presented that I sped.
ummm no the cop usually has clocked you with a radar gun which is enough evidence to convict you with so it isnt just his say so as you put
One time I have gone faster than what the cop told me I was going.

@openbox9
What are you going to do? Unless you have something like TrackMe, you have 0 evidence to prove you weren't speeding. It's your word against the cops, and guess who the judge will believe? Or unless of course you have a dying person or pregnant woman in the back...or on your way to the previous - then the officer probably wouldn't have written you the ticket in the first place.

@both jimi419 and Mashiki
Yes the cop has to make several reports that you were going speed X, but that doesn't mean he can't make it up. It's not like the radar gun spits out a receipt with your speed and license plate - and you aren't even legally allowed to see the radar gun.
I really think we need a better system in place than just trusting "radar guns", in fact I had passed one of those "the speed limit is X and you are going Y" signs and it was 5 MPH off (it said I was going 5 MPH faster than what I was going).

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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1 edit

Here is full report on speeding up file sharing enforcement

In the link below is the full release of the government report on speeding up the implementation and strengthening enforcement options regarding illegal file sharing:

»www.berr.gov.uk/files/file52658.pdf
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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Re: Here is full report on speeding up file sharing enforcement

I don't see why ISP's should have to pay 50% of the costs of monitoring, enforcement, and punishment of their own subscribers.

I think that Ofcom should bear responsibility for all costs involved.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

KrK
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Hmmm. I wonder if the punishment for false or wrong allegations of copyright infringement are included in the full law. Seems a citizen, threatened with a lifetime ban, should be able to hold the guilty parties accountable for lifetime of cash payments.

It's only fair.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

KrK
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DMCA warnings are toothless... in the UK!

If I got a DMCA warning forwarded from the RIAA in the UK I'd also file it in the round file.... Since the DMCA is a US law and doesn't mean shinola in the UK.....

Now, if people were given a UK warning..... well, the theory would make more sense.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

Kilroy
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join:2002-11-21
Ann Arbor, MI
·WOW Internet and C..

Broadband is a Utility

We are to the point where broadband is just as necessary as electric and water. Those who have it will maintain it to the last. How do you deal with it when the ability to connect to the Internet is almost required to function?

That and those pesky little things like tracking and verifying the complaints are accurate and so on, and so on. Let's just pass a law and let someone else worry about the details.
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When will the people realize that with DRM they aren't purchasing anything?

KrK
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Re: Broadband is a Utility

said by Kilroy See Profile :

We are to the point where broadband is just as necessary as electric and water. Those who have it will maintain it to the last. How do you deal with it when the ability to connect to the Internet is almost required to function?
In the UK, they have an active unemployment and welfare state.

Take away people's broadband, and they can always just sit on the dole. Brilliant, eh?
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
Roop

join:2003-11-15
Ottawa, ON

Re: Broadband is a Utility

holy shit. i can't believe mussolini said that 60+ years ago.

well everyone, i guess we've been living in facist states for a while.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH

Re: Broadband is a Utility

Well... something most people seem to fail to understand is that historically powerful dictators have always been political geniuses. They understand how things worked at a bureaucratic level, and had a keen understanding of the psychology of the masses.

People often bemoan the ineffectiveness and lack of true leadership skills of modern day democratic politicians. But in many ways this is a boon to a democracy, as this prevents those with the highest concentration of power from intelligently abusing that power.

Imagine if Bush was actually an intelligent and profound man, with vision and foresight? His totalitarian leanings and complete disregard for the constitution would have been frighteningly more malevolent and pervasive.

Mr Neutron
Hopped up on what you mopped up
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Re: Broadband is a Utility

said by sonicmerlin See Profile :

Well... something most people seem to fail to understand is that historically powerful dictators have always been political geniuses.
Until, that is, they start believing their own press releases.
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

Awww jeez... not this crap again.

All the P2P I do is 100% legal. Why the hell is this plan back again? So friggin' stupid.

Someone has to clue these idiots to the fact that P2P (bittorrent) is a protocol. It has many more legal uses than stealing music.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Awww jeez... not this crap again.

Ironically, in theory, everything is "File trading".
iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO

Re: Awww jeez... not this crap again.

Except streaming. That's the only thing that isn't file sharing per se.

IPingUPing
N4BFR
Premium
join:2002-08-30
Smyrna, GA
clubs:

That's terrific, it's good that you get beneficial use of that application.

I think the question is, if someone is so persistent at violating the laws that exist today, specifically the copyright laws, how do you hold them accountable? That seems like the problem that the UK is trying to solve.

If you don't agree with the copyright laws, then work toward changing them. We have a whole city built on changing laws here in the U.S.
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

Re: Awww jeez... not this crap again.

My commentary is more towards the scope of what they call "P2P." If the Brits are calling the infringing of musical intellectual property "P2P" I have a major problem with this. It's stupid and inaccurate and could make this one specific problem in to a much larger problem for legit P2P users.
chronoss2009

join:2008-09-23
·TekSavvy Solutions..

in more important news

the last UK citizen to have internet died of a mysterious car crash that saw a black van rushing away form the scene.

Citizens now are trading cards and playing board games with dice and getting out to parties in underground parking lots....

CRITICAL HIT

KeepOnRockin
Music Lover Forever
Premium
join:2002-11-08
Beaverton, OR
·Comcast

Not "three strikes" again

Another country obsessed with the mythical "three strikes" copyright enforcement plan. These plans are flawed and aren't a holy grail of IP policy.

It's no suprise that these plans are not being signed into law.

If ISPs have to devote more resources/manpower to keeping a tab on people (based on mere accusations of copyright infringement); who says they won't raise costs for everyone (ie subscribers) to make up for it?

This would negatively effect honest subscribers who aren't pirating. I wouldn't want my bill potentially raised due to other peoples' disregard for copyright.
Roop

join:2003-11-15
Ottawa, ON
·Cybersurf Corporat..

Re: Not "three strikes" again

who cares if you are pirating or not. it's a huge invasion of privacy.

the only workaround is to encrypt everything you do. P2P makes this hard because you cannot always trust your peers. Stuff like peer gaurdian is great but what if the ISPs start looking at the clear-text sites you're visiting (mininova, piratebay). there's barely anything legal there.

it goes back to privacy. let's have an open internet. if people chose to use it one way, a srong business will find a way to profit from this without forcing states to change their laws.

but then again, the corporations influence the states in this fascist world we live in.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
I think the reason ISPs are annoyed is because they *can't* raise prices to accommodate the increased costs of their watchdog duties, lest their customers flee to their competition (well, whatever passes for "competition" in Britain).
Forums » Britain Returns To 'Three Strikes' Plan


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