British Cops, Spies Oppose 'Three Strikes' - More encryption means more trouble?

British Cops, Spies Oppose 'Three Strikes'
More encryption means more trouble?
05:51PM Tuesday Oct 27 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · Fileswapping · business · world

ISPs aren't the only ones against the UK's new plan to kick repeat offenders off of the Internet. Techdirt notes that Britain's law enforcement and intelligence agencies are coming out against the proposed "three strikes" idea, arguing that it would make tracking criminals more difficult. How? The threat of losing their broadband connection is as likely to make P2P users use encryption as it is to get them to stop using P2P. The result is a whole lot more encrypted traffic, and according to the UK Times Online, that makes Britain's spies particularly annoyed:

One (law) official said: "It will make prosecution harder because it increases the workload significantly." A source involved in drafting the Bill said that the intelligence agencies, MI5 and MI6, had also voiced concerns about disconnection. "The spooks hate it," the source said. "They think it is only going to make monitoring more difficult."

There's already a growing number of organizations who don't think three strikes laws are a good idea for a laundry list of reasons. You can now add "annoys James Bond" to that list.

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Forums » British Cops, Spies Oppose 'Three Strikes'


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Transmaster Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY 1 edit	if this goes in...... purchase stock in whom ever builds the super computers MI5 and MI6 uses to break encryiption with.
	permalink · 2009-10-27 18:01:12 ·

fartness Computersoc Dot Com Premium join:2003-03-25 Look Outside clubs:	Re: if this goes in...... Just use your neighbors wireless connection, eh?
	permalink · 2009-10-28 15:28:02 ·

El Quintron Could you spare a consulting gig? join:2008-04-28 Etobicoke, ON	Kinda obvious Wasn't that what everyone was saying would happen? I think I spouted off about "the beginning of an encryption arms race" a few times, and I'm not even employed in the field...
	permalink · 2009-10-27 18:08:24 ·

Transmaster Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY ·Qwest.net	Re: Kinda obvious the massive resources of the CIA, MI5, and 6 being brought to bare so RIAA and it's UK cousin can find out who the 14 year old is who is downloading the new recording from one of their indentured bands. -- I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain in Eruption
	permalink · 2009-10-27 18:15:33 ·

RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

Re: Kinda obvious

said by Transmaster

:

the massive resources of the CIA, MI5, and 6 being brought to bare so RIAA and it's UK cousin can find out who the 14 year old is who is downloading the new recording from one of their indentured bands.

I think that should be the NSA (and FBI?) not the CIA. CIA is a Non-Domestic spy organization while the NSA deals with all encryption/description issues. MI5 is domestic security (like the FBI) while MI6 (who James Bond is an Agent of) is their equivalent of the CIA.

permalink · 2009-10-27 21:18:34 · Print ·

Simba7

join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT

·Bresnan Online

Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

With the introduction of faster multi-core processors, along with the nVidia Tesla and Fermi cards, it's just a matter of time when anyone with a few grand can have kick ass encryption that would be a pain in the butt to crack for any organization.

This would just be another stepping stone. When a good percentage of traffic is encrypted, it will be impossible to distinguish between the good and the bad. Even the massive supercomputers of today won't be able to keep up.
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permalink · 2009-10-27 19:24:25 · Print ·

DataRiker
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2 edits

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

said by Simba7

:

With the introduction of faster multi-core processors, along with the nVidia Tesla and Fermi cards, it's just a matter of time when anyone with a few grand can have kick ass encryption that would be a pain in the butt to crack for any organization.

This would just be another stepping stone. When a good percentage of traffic is encrypted, it will be impossible to distinguish between the good and the bad. Even the massive supercomputers of today won't be able to keep up.

Due to the trivial nature of encrypting vs decrypting, this was never an issue. Even today's slowest hardware is way over adequate to make unbreakable encryption.

Super computers and super threaded devices like video cards are never needed for encryption, but are used decryption.

There are several ciphers available for free that can do this. Some are stronger than others, and some are theoretically unbreakable (short ciphers - serious limitations apply though - key must be longer than the message for one ).

permalink · 2009-10-27 19:36:12 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	It's only a matter of time till they make a new law criminalizing the use of encryption.
	permalink · 2009-10-28 02:01:45 ·

chimera join:2009-06-09 Washington, DC	Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier.. They tried that a while back when crypto was new. It failed and then the NSA decided that it was better to be on the side of the crypto community instead of against it.
	permalink · 2009-10-28 08:18:44 ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK ·AT&T Yahoo ·AT&T DSL Service ·Cox HSI ·AT&T Southwest	Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier.. I wrote about this in the other thread. What will happen is an "Add on" law that criminalizes encryption for the use of "illegal activity" like copyright infringement or avoiding throttling, etc -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
	permalink · 2009-10-28 13:26:03 ·

Simba7 join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT	Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier.. ..and how would they determine what the traffic is? It's easier just to say that all encryption is illegal and if you're caught using it without registering yourself, you're screwed.
	permalink · 2009-10-28 18:15:10 ·

chimera

join:2009-06-09
Washington, DC

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Except as pointed out that is impossible since encrypted traffic is the entire basis of e-commerce, secure websites and passwords on wireless access points. Heck, your login password is encrypted in Windows by default. This is basic security even if there are loads of ways around it. We are also seeing a rise in whole drive encryption and encrypted flash drives to protect against theft. Finally you can't forget that DRM is based around encryption as well. Nope, it's here to stay.

This being said as KrK pointed as it is possible that attempts to obfuscate or mask illegal activity online will increase the penalty when laws get put into place, and this would impact encrypted file sharing.

permalink · 2009-10-28 22:49:31 · Print ·

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

said by Simba7

Remember the government is 10x of ahead what technology generation consumers know. But feel safe in knowing that if they actually use their technology, and you can figure it out that they have it, they have to kill you.

permalink · 2009-10-28 03:05:52 · Print ·

chimera

join:2009-06-09
Washington, DC

1 edit

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Even if that were true a lot of crypto algorithms are NP problems and even when "solved" these break down into a slightly faster NP problem. A lot of these can be helped by throwing more computers, cores and processing power at a problem, but these effectives are merely multiplicative against a problem which is exponential.
If a way to break that key faster is found, then this may shrink rapidly again, but encyption is always be faster than decryption. :P

permalink · 2009-10-28 11:25:16 · Print ·

chimera

join:2009-06-09
Washington, DC

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Sorry about the long string and my bad for putting that in there without a code block. I also should point out that my math wasn't fully accurate with those numbers because of how these algorithms work. A lot of smart algorithms figure out ways to reduce the time required for each bit of strength an encryption algorithm has from 2 to some smaller number by incurring a fixed cost, a polynomial cost and / or adding in some other multiplier which results in a net time decrease per bit.

So instead of taking twice as long per bit instead a good cracking algorithm could do it in 1.5 times as long per bit. In some rare cases a way to trivially crack an algorithm comes along in which case it can be solved in polynomial time, but this is becoming less and less common as time goes on.

So in the above example it would make more sense to say that if a really good cracking algorithm was found that could say do it in 1.05x per bit it would take: 2,839,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years

In short still a crazy long time. :P

permalink · 2009-10-28 23:00:11 · Print ·

chronoss2009 join:2008-09-23	haha ill say it real criminals DONT use anyhting they can be traced from and steal YOUR cell to make there calls ROFL
	permalink · 2009-10-27 21:04:59 ·

james join:2001-02-26 antarctica	Re: haha ill say it said by chronoss2009 : real criminals DONT use anyhting they can be traced from and steal YOUR cell to make there calls ROFL ROFL X 2 -- said by Metatron2008 : But people who download thousands of movies and games.... Yes, they are as bad as any murderer
	permalink · 2009-10-28 01:10:21 · Print ·

Croaker join:2009-10-01 Ottawa ON	Re: haha ill say it You two still live in the '80's if you think you have anonymity.
	permalink · 2009-10-28 10:40:16 ·

james join:2001-02-26 antarctica	Re: haha ill say it said by Croaker : You two still live in the '80's if you think you have anonymity. No. This is the year 2009, you've been frozen for almost 30 years. -- said by Metatron2008 : But people who download thousands of movies and games.... Yes, they are as bad as any murderer
	permalink · 2009-10-28 17:09:30 · Print ·

zod5000 join:2003-10-21 Edmonton, AB	I totally agree By making isp's content monitors, its just going to lead to encryption of the internet. If everything's encrypted from web pages to torrents to usenet, no one's going to be able to sort through it.
	permalink · 2009-10-27 21:13:28 ·

Croaker join:2009-10-01 Ottawa ON	Re: I totally agree Yup, thus breaking QoS. Thanks Hollywood!
	permalink · 2009-10-28 10:42:21 ·

snipper_cr join:2002-01-22 Wheaton, IL clubs:	The only James bond... I am glad Karl choose the picture of the ONLY real James Bond.
	permalink · 2009-10-27 22:02:25 ·

xdeadhead 220, 221, Whatever It Takes. Premium join:2000-11-08 Mechanicsburg, PA	Re: The only James bond... excuse me? the guy in that pic doesnt look anything like sean connery.
	permalink · 2009-10-27 22:52:35 ·

RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY	Re: The only James bond... said by xdeadhead : excuse me? the guy in that pic doesnt look anything like sean connery. It is Roger "The Saint" Moore who was Bond #3 (#4 if you count Barry Nelson who played Bond in a 1954 TV version of Casino Royale 8 years before Sean Connery played the role Dr. No).
	permalink · 2009-10-28 16:24:34 ·

xdeadhead 220, 221, Whatever It Takes. Premium join:2000-11-08 Mechanicsburg, PA 1 edit	Re: The only James bond... obviously i know it is roger moore. the joke quite possibly flew right over your head. everyone knows the best james bond is sean connery. screw you, trebek!
	permalink · 2009-10-29 18:33:05 ·

RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY	Re: The only James bond... said by xdeadhead : obviously i know it is roger moore. the joke quite possibly flew right over your head. everyone knows the best james bond is sean connery. screw you, trebek! I was not responding as if I did not realize that it was a joke but simply identifying who it was a picture of (and mentioning what order he has in the list of people who played Bond).
	permalink · 2009-10-29 20:26:49 · Print ·

xdeadhead 220, 221, Whatever It Takes. Premium join:2000-11-08 Mechanicsburg, PA	Re: The only James bond... thanks for clarifying. teh intrawebs leaves alot of room for "intent"
	permalink · 2009-11-06 02:38:42 ·

Murdoc join:2009-02-08 Manitowoc, WI ·AT&T DSL Service ·Callcentric ·Comcast	Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we? They just don't like that they are getting encryption flung right back at them. Only way to fight back illegal search and seizure. Who knows what law enforcement is doing on there encrypted radio systems! Who can trust who anymore?
	permalink · 2009-10-27 22:39:26 ·

KrK
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Re: Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?

Prediction: More draconian "Copyright" laws in the future, aptly misnamed, like the "American IP Freedom & Preservation Act"...

Such legislation will have a clause in it that in effect says using encryption to avoid detection of copyright infringement will be a new crime punishable by a minimum 50 years in prison and 15 million dollar fine.

Or something equally asinine. In other words, they can't beat it, so they'll make using encryption illegal itself. Anyone want to take bets?
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2009-10-28 02:00:45 · Print ·

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB

·TELUS

·TekSavvy Solutions..

Re: Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?

said by KrK

:

Prediction: More draconian "Copyright" laws in the future, aptly misnamed, like the "American IP Freedom & Preservation Act"...

Such legislation will have a clause in it that in effect says using encryption to avoid detection of copyright infringement will be a new crime punishable by a minimum 50 years in prison and 15 million dollar fine.

Or something equally asinine. In other words, they can't beat it, so they'll make using encryption illegal itself. Anyone want to take bets?

It'd be hard to do, because encryption is at the heart of online commerce. They wouldn't be able to outlaw it completely, and anything that was left legal.. well people would find a way to abuse it.

permalink · 2009-10-28 03:14:18 · Print ·

KrK
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Re: Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?

They won't outlaw it's usage, they'll just tack it onto copyright infringement law. IE something along the line of "Using encryption to evade prosecution/enable copyright infringement" etc etc

So for example: Legal to encrypt everyday traffic/sensitive material etc but ILLEGAL to encrypt "pirated" or "infringed" information or files.

Kinda how they made drug laws have new penalties when a gun was present etc

Owning/possessing a gun in your home --- not illegal. Selling drugs from your home --- illegal. Selling drugs from your home and having/owning/possessing firearms illegal with new penalties and harsher punishment. Etc etc
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

permalink · 2009-10-28 03:54:33 · Print ·

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Forums » British Cops, Spies Oppose 'Three Strikes'


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if this goes in......

Re: if this goes in......

Kinda obvious

Re: Kinda obvious

Re: Kinda obvious

Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

Re: Good encryption gets cheaper.. and easier..

haha ill say it

Re: haha ill say it

Re: haha ill say it

Re: haha ill say it

I totally agree

Re: I totally agree

The only James bond...

Re: The only James bond...

Re: The only James bond...

Re: The only James bond...

Re: The only James bond...

Re: The only James bond...

Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?

Re: Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?

Re: Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?

Re: Law enforcement uses encryption, why can't we?