 
SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| I love to war-drive! who doesn't! I love to war-drive, it's free #1 and #2 I get good speed for when I need to check my mail, surf DSLR, and mabie even game a little bit if I get the chance 
I see unsecure weps as a simple means of checking your mail and hopping on the internet for a fw minuites. It's so common in many places, (not to mention a plague across surburbia) that I can have 6 to 10 open acces points in small towns under 10K people in some areas.
I don't see myself stopping checking my mail on buisness trips or on vacation for free any time soon.
--SSX--
--
New PC Setup
Asus A8V rev 2.0
AMD Athlon 64 socket 939 3200+ 90nm
Radeon 9800 Pro
2 X 36.5 gig Western Digital Raptors in Raid - 0
1 gig OCZ 3500 memory
Anime-4ever.org | |
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removed
Crisis Management Squad
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
clubs:
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! 
Houston has a lot of them - but a fair amount are encrypted.
I am in the middle of moving, and my DSL is to be cut off and moved any day now. I will still have 'net access once SBC moves the DSL - my neighbor has an open AP that is connected to his RoadRunner cable modem. Woot - no dialup!
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AIM | irc.removed.us - #dslr | |
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jameskris
join:2005-01-13
Sayre, OK
| So does one need a wireless network card to try to find an open connection, or can I use my wireless router at home to see if there is a connection overlapping my house. I currently have a wireless router, but only have one computer hooked up to it right now. | |
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removed
Crisis Management Squad
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
clubs:
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! You can put the router in "Ad Hoc" mode and have it connect to another wireless network to serve as an additional router - and that's where your PC gets access.
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AIM | irc.removed.us - #dslr | |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| This sounds like the same thing that happened to the airline industry. People were paying $1000s of dollars for "first class" tickets, business travelers got gouged for last-minute travel, and passengers had to go through the painful routing of the hub-and-spoke system to get to their destinations.
So Southwest Air comes along and figures out that people just want to get from point a to point b quickly, cheaply, and with minimal hassle. The legacy carriers have been playing catch-up ever since.
Now ISPs are scared to death that if they offer cut-rate broadband, they'll lose their customer base. You watch and see how long it is before they're playing catch-up too... | |
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slash616
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Holland, MI
| You are breaking the law. Not to mention that there are individuals like myself intentionally setup WAP's with default information and sniff and log every packet that leeches like yourself send over their networks. Go ahead and take your chances. Either way, the owner of the access point is given the option of going to the authorities, or using the newly acquired logins and passwords to counter an attack. Either way, it's quite an unpleasant experience. Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, Do you? | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! ...as if you aren't breaking the law, sniffing data not meant for you and then using it illegally?
BTW, if you are deliberately leaving your AP open for others to use, you have legally given your consent to them to use it. Your claim of "trespassing" will be as invalid as the guy who builds a sidewalk to his front door and then tries to prosecute (or shoot) anyone who uses it.
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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slash616
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Holland, MI
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! Show me a legal precedent that supports this. One of my best friends (Paul Timmins) was charged with a federal misdemeanor for connecting to an access point he mistakened for a starbucks hotspot for checking his e-mail. (Lowes was next door to the starbucks).
If you trespass on my property, I have every right to record you, just because I don't put up "no trespassing" signs does not suggest I allow trespassing on my property. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! Well, gee, according to the article you linked to, your friend Paul Timmins is charged because he supplied some of the Wi-Fi gear AND KNEW OF THE INTENDED CRIMINAL ACT.
In any event, read my comment again. I said "if you are deliberately leaving your AP open for others to use...." Lowes wasn't deliberately leaving their AP open.
As for legal precedents, the legal field always draws precedents from what has gone before. If you invite people on your property, or build sidewalks so they'll come on your property, they aren't trespassers.
If you leave your front yard unfenced and someone strolls over and sits down and starts talking on their cellphone, they aren't trespassing until they receive notice you don't want them there and they refuse to leave.
And you still need to read my response yet again--I didn't say you'd be in trouble for "recording" the packets passing your network (in part because if that's all you did, no one would ever know) but that you would be in trouble for BOTH sniffing the data AND using it illegally. Your argument that you're entitled to criminally use data that traverses your open network is as valid as a fast-food manager claiming he has a right to use credit card data that was left behind in a purse in his store. No merit at all.
Face it--your "friend" Paul Timmins was arrested and charged because the cops thought (and apparently still think) he was in cahoots with hackers who wrote and used a program to steal credit card data--not because he "accidentally" stumbled onto a Lowes AP next to Starbucks. The weakness of your argument is highlighted by the differences from the article you linked to at:
»www.securityfocus.com/news/8835
Frankly, I'm tired of people getting caught doing bad things and then trying to fault the law by claiming they were innocent.
BTW, if you come into my unfenced front yard or store and have the intent to commit a criminal act (such as window peeping, shoplifting, or burglary) they you ARE a trespasser--reasonable consent is not presumed to have been given to those with criminal intent.
See? While Wi-Fi may not yet have been covered in great detail in the law, your not-very-clever excuses and evasions are no different than those used by common criminals for ages--and the courts won't be spending huge amounts of time believing them, either.
Finally, think what your Mother would say. She would no more approve you (or Paul) accompanying guys probing an AP for credit card theft and then giving them Wi-Fi equipment than she would approve you accompanying guys scoping out a burglary and then giving them gloves. The law doesn't either. You may be as fascinated with hackers as some folks are with gangsters, but when you cross the line and start assisting them, you become a crook. Keep your nose clean and hang out with the right people, slash.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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slash616
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Holland, MI
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! said by calvoiper  :And you still need to read my response yet again--I didn't say you'd be in trouble for "recording" the packets passing your network (in part because if that's all you did, no one would ever know) but that you would be in trouble for BOTH sniffing the data AND using it illegally. Your argument that you're entitled to criminally use data that traverses your open network is as valid as a fast-food manager claiming he has a right to use credit card data that was left behind in a purse in his store. No merit at all. Agreed, and not at all what I meant. First off, the point I was trying to make was that it's trivial for anyone to capture wireless traffic. People who make use of someone's access point with default configurations to get "free wireless" are just as vulnerable as the people they are stealing from. Their traffic (presumably with the individual who started the thread) will be traveling over the air unencrypted.
And yes, it would be illegal if I were to use the sniffed data for illegal purposes. However, that is not my intent.
The reason I sniff the traffic coming through the access point I purposely leave open is to:
1. see who, if anyone, is using my connection
2. what they are using it for.
Someone else noted that they use SSH tunneling -- good for them. I'd prefer more would do it that way, because if they are SSH tunnelling to a cracked server, I might be able to tip off the owner. If they are SSH tunneling into a system they own, good for them -- their source IP address won't be mine, and I still have the SSH server's IP address incase I want to take further legal action.
The point is, The moment someone commits a crime using my internet connection through my wireless network, I have evidence. Do I honestly care if someone uses the AP to check their e-mail while in the neighborhood? Not really. But, regardless of the leecher's intent, it's still technically breaking the law.
said by calvoiper :Face it--your "friend" Paul Timmins was arrested and charged because the cops thought (and apparently still think) he was in cahoots with hackers who wrote and used a program to steal credit card data--not because he "accidentally" stumbled onto a Lowes AP next to Starbucks. [...] Well, gee, according to the article you linked to, your friend Paul Timmins is charged because he supplied some of the Wi-Fi gear AND KNEW OF THE INTENDED CRIMINAL ACT. This was the article I intended to link to:
»www.securityfocus.com/news/9281
Believe what you want, but I know much more about what happened than you do, and Paul most certainly did not have anything to do with that crime. The only reason he was charged was because he was originally misidentified due to piss-poor surveillance by the FBI. I only brought it up because the charge he did plead guilty to did set a legal precedent. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! Well, the second article is more favorable to Timmins than the first, but in a way it explains even more with this Timmins quote:
"I tried to discourage Adam several times," says Timmins. "He kept saying, 'They won't catch us.' I'm like, 'Whatever. Don't do it here.'"
He was part of the initial intrusion, he knew how that information was being misused, and he did nothing. In many states under traditional law that would satisfy the definition of conspiracy. Timmins got a more favorable plea (misdemeanor instead of felony) because he was less culpable, but under even traditional law, he was culpable.
Let's look at a comparable non-Wi-Fi situation. Paul and Adam are out riding bikes one night and, without realizing it, ride down what they think is an alley but is really a private driveway. Paul leaves his fingerprints several places in grease where they last a long time. They find a drinking fountain and drink some water. Then, they see a bunch of supplies lying around and realize they've found an unintentionally unlocked entrance to a construction company's storage yard. They leave. Six months later, Adam and Brian come back and start helping themselves to stored equipment. Paul checks out their loads and tries to discourage them, but makes no effort to report them or even to anonymously inform the construction company that they're being ripped off through an open gate.
The cops run a stakeout, check the prints, and initially think Paul is in on the theft. Later, after everyone is charged and they learn what else went on, they offer Paul the opportunity to plead to a misdemeanor trespass count as he, while aware of the theft, was not really part of it.
Viewing the above situation, I'd say justice was done in both cases.
Now, I may sound skeptical--but that's partially because I can't really believe that Timmins really mistook Lowe's for Starbucks, in part because Starbucks isn't "next door" to Lowe's in Southfield, it's across Telegraph Avenue, which is a multi lane thoroughfare that resembles a freeway more than it does a street.
Overall, there's just too much "stretching" of the truth going on here. Every time there seems to be something exculpatory for Timmins, he admits at least knowing what was going on.
But, have a chuckle about this over drinks at Ginopolis down at 12 and Middlebelt. I was drinking there before Paul Timmins was born, back in the days when it was a converted gas station before they tore it down and built the "new" one that's there now.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Belch
@golden.net
| Just curious, but if I wanted to, could I packet sniff the stuff war drivers are sending through my access point and read their email?
Of course, I guess it might be considered an illegal wire tap, but it might also be argued that it's legal as it's my network being used and as an intruder, you don't have any expectation of privacy. | |
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SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! Slash I'm sending fricking email, I'm not intruding either. Last time I checked internet waves are just like radio waves, tv waves etc. Once it's off your property it's public domain. If you broadcast TV waves I can tune into it and watch it, if you did it with radio I could listen. If you broadcast internet I can access the web... how is that any different? Also you talk of jailtime like I'm robbing a bank.... I think you are taking this way too seriously.
But then again I have been wrong before, if it's illegal I'll still take my chances, it's only @#$#@# email afterall not bit torrent or any possible copyright infringement issues.
You can't mix apples with oranges. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.
--SSX--
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New PC Setup
Asus A8V rev 2.0
AMD Athlon 64 socket 939 3200+ 90nm
Radeon 9800 Pro
2 X 36.5 gig Western Digital Raptors in Raid - 0
1 gig OCZ 3500 memory
Anime-4ever.org | |
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wings10
I Am Legend
Premium
join:2004-06-09
South Elgin, IL | Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't! So the air waves are free? I will remember that when I hack a DISH or DriecTV box and get illegal channels I did not subscribe to. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| said by Belch:
Just curious, but if I wanted to, could I packet sniff the stuff war drivers are sending through my access point and read their email?
Of course, I guess it might be considered an illegal wire tap, but it might also be argued that it's legal as it's my network being used and as an intruder, you don't have any expectation of privacy.
Let's say you ran a motel, and had a slot marked "MAIL" (not "US MAIL") at the front desk. Users would have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the mail they deposited there, just as users of your deliberately open hotspot have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their mail.
The key factor is once you deliberately leave it open, you are inviting others to use it. And if you are sniffing, it's very hard to say you aren't deliberately leaving it open....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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wheresthedamnoffswit
@optonline.net
| personally, this is the exact reason why I don't own and wouldn't buy a wireless router... i dont' really mind people sharing it (not hogging, mind you) while I'm aware of it.. but I want an OFF switch that I know for certain that they are off my network when I don't want them there... there is no "hardwired" off switch for the wireless transmission (wifi) access. Until this featur becomes reality rather than wishful thinking.. Wifi will remain an unsecured haven for freeloaders.. it would be nice to be able to customize your own encryption using pgp authentication and 256bit encryption to stop prying eyes and freeloaders once and for all.. the technology needs an evolution or two before it gets really secure and a reasonable alternative to copper/fiber | |
| nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| "friendly" riders there is a reason encryption is available for wireless systems....it's called "security".
May not be great, but it should keep your "friendly" neighbors from helping themselves.
I wasn't using encryption until I just happened to catch an unkown computer connected to my wireless router. | |
| Fraoch
join:2003-08-01
London, ON
| Broadband for Cheapskates Linksys is a great no-cost Wi-Fi service provider! They have an AP accessible from my home!:D
Light broadband packages are common in Canada, but their prices are still relatively high. The best "light" broadband I was on was 512 kbps, which was fine for web surfing and light downloading. Most other providers were at 128 kbps, which is still fine for web surfing but more restrictive for downloading. Anything over 2 MB took a while...Now both major providers have increased their light speeds to 256 kbps, which will make downloads a bit more tolerable.
However the prices are still not that great for price/performance ratio. 256 kbps for $29.99/month plus taxes.:p | |
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jameskris
join:2005-01-13
Sayre, OK |  Re: Broadband for Cheapskates
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| | | | | covertwar
join:2002-06-01
Colorado Springs, CO | There is not just Linksys, don't forget about NETGEAR, belkin54g, among others. | |
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Cthen
join:2004-08-01
Ypsilanti, MI
·Comcast
| Re: Broadband for Cheapskates said by covertwar :There is not just Linksys, don't forget about NETGEAR, belkin54g, among others. Be careful using the D-Link ISP's out there....once in a while you will find a server of theirs that likes to reboot on it's own ;P | |
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Mikey187R
@bellsouth.ne
| Free Last time I took a 30minute drive from home to work I pulled 260 AP's with netstumbler. Over 50% of them were unsecured. But I do have an Proxim card with an external antenna on the top of my car With a good card and a external antenna I can pull 3 of my neighbors connection from inside the middle of my house. | |
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Mikey187R
@bellsouth.ne
| 2nd note. I found that limiting which MAC addresses are allowed to connect in my netgear was better than using encryption. Encryption seemed to slow the netgear down too much dunno if netgear(MR814v3) sucks or what? But what do I expect for a $40 wireless gateway router. | |
| | sharksfan3
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Poughkeepsie, NY | Re: Free Watch for MAC address cloning! It's easier than you may think. | |
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Mikey187R
@bellsouth.ne | Re: Free Guess I need to figure out how to check for that. My connection has been acting weird lately. Lots of timing out on the wireless network. | |
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SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13 | If you limit your mac addresses that can connect it helps better than incryption. I HATE the encryption at my school. It slows it down so much and limits the range too.
--SSX-- | |
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bokamba
Chengdu Rocks
Premium
join:2002-04-05
Falls Church, VA | Re: Free How, pray tell, does encryption reduce the range? | |
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SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Free When they run their wireless without broadcasting SSID, encryption, and not to mention the fact that it cuts in and out alot, it cuts the range for the PC to find the required number of packets to generate the encrypted ssid, then decript the ssid, as well as the connection.
So by doing so (not to mention mac filtering) you run into problems of not being able to connect to the wireless all the time (shotty hit and miss) not to mention you can't directly pick up the SSID and connect to it (let alone find it)
--SSX-- | |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
 ·Embarq
| In addition to the usual precautions, zone off your Wifi (why I prefer access points) clients from you wired LAN, turn off DHCP and subnet your wifi zone for only the number of clients you actually have. If you have 2 clients, create a subnet that only has 2 available IP addresses -- this way you're not handing out DHCP leases willy-nilly to war drivers. You're at least making it bit harder for someone to join your network once they've sniffed it.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass | |
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aitech
Guru. Kneel
join:2000-12-19
Boston, MA
clubs: 
| Re: Free Probably out of the scope of this posting, but I maintain a wireless AP set on default for the masses to use. I set up a separate VLAN for the wireless segment, use 802.1q tagging for the packets throughput the network, and firewall most everything from wireless VLAN -> Local VLAN. Also, to make things interesting, I block ports 80,110,25, etc, and filter all packets with any plain-text http headers, etc. (for the smarter people trying to open proxy a www connection on a different port). Only encrypted (SSH) traffic is allowed through.
Obviously we are a house of network engineers, and you would be very surprised at the amount of traffic that actually passes through here on a daily basis (from outside anonymous wifi connections). We also happen to live very close to several engineering schools.
My point here, is that if you want to use an unsecured wireless connection, YOU should be responsible for, and aware of what risks you are taking and be sound enough to take the precautions against them.
I am all for anonymous anywhere unsecured wireless access. One day OpenSSH and encryption technologies will be native to windows OS's, and people will actually be aware and educated about such 'obscure' topics such as network security.
There isn't a HUGE learning curve here. It might be a huge task to teach someone 802.1Q VLAN trunking and spanning tree protocol. But it doesn't take long to teach someone;
when you connect to a random access point, you are transmitting your credit card number and passwords to people within a 1/2 mile radius - THIS IS NOT GOOD. Use this tool before doing anything on an unsecured network.
Simple.
Effective. | |
| | kpruett
join:2003-01-03
Dacula, GA
| said by Mikey187R:
2nd note. I found that limiting which MAC addresses are allowed to connect in my netgear was better than using encryption. Encryption seemed to slow the netgear down too much dunno if netgear(MR814v3) sucks or what? But what do I expect for a $40 wireless gateway router.
Better is not the correct term...just different.
This gives you the false sense of security that no-one is able to see your traffic.
Maybe they just want to watch your traffic until they get some info like a password or such.
There are wireless sniffers that can pick up the traffic without connecting....after all, the packets are trasmitted into the air.
Think of it like someone with a scanner listening to your home wireless phone connection. If you don't have a phone with scrambling, they can hear everything without actually "connecting" to your base station.
Of course encyption can be cracked as well, especially WEP.
Best to be on WPA if you worry.
Best to review websites that help with securing your wireless network.
They'll recommend WAP, MAC filtering, turn off Broadcast SSID, etc.
Speed should be your last concern.
If it is a concern, run a cat5 cable.
Ken
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--------------Ken Pruett | |
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See 8 replies to this post | |
Edward27
join:2002-04-28
Canton, GA
| I recently turned off the wireless feature on my router, because I really didn't need it anymore and for security concerns. One day I found that one of my neighbors was connected to my wireless router, and I decided that I was just going to hardwire all of my computers to the router.
My brother can detect 3-4 wireless routers from my home office (not including mine). He actually connected to 2 of the routers and could access the internet just fine. He couldn't figure out why he could not access my file server, until we figured out that he was connected to the wrong router. | |
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rogue_
I Have A Secret Window
Premium
join:2001-10-17
Lake Hiawatha, NJ
| Yes, BB is free here too if chosen.
At least 3 now, and all are high speed OOL service, 10/1 MB.
Anyway, I'm thinking of opening up my wireless router as well.
Power to the people!
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Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. | |
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toolman12
join:2004-05-16
San Saba, TX | Too bad you can't wardrive for women like you can free broadband. Wouldn't it be cool if you could use a program like ministumbler to see which ones put out and which ones don't.  | |
| | | svec7186
join:2005-02-22
New City, NY | which finds an access point better, usb or pci wireless cards? | |
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Broadband for Cheapskates
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Gotta love...
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