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CWA Claims Verizon Cable Deal a Job Killer
The Same CWA That Claimed AT&T T-Mobile Was Job Miracle

A new study commissioned (pdf) by the Communications Workers of America (CWA) insists that Verizon's co-marketing arrangement with the cable industry would be a job killer. The report begins by assuming that Verizon won't expand FiOS any further than the 70% of their total footprint estimated to be covered by 2018 -- most of which is build outs in major cities complying with existing franchise agreements. By expanding that footprint percentage to 95%, the CWA insists Verizon would create some 72,000 "job years" (one year at one job) across all industries, which includes installation, hardware and support.

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“If done right, the proposed deal would add tens of thousands of new jobs and allow underserved communities access to high quality broadband service. The FCC has the obligation carefully to assess this deal in terms of likely job loss. We expect regulators to reject this deal unless the parties accept conditions that would create jobs, increase network investment, and promote consumer choice,” said Debbie Goldman, CWA Telecommunications Policy Director.

Reports this week indicated that the FCC was already likely to approve the deal, while the DOJ appears to be concerned about the anti-competitive impact.

There's a few problems with CWA's analysis -- namely that Verizon already froze FiOS expansion before they even struck the deal with the cable industry -- and the move had nothing to do with the cable industry. Verizon has made it very clear they're not particularly concerned with the remaining DSL users in rural and second or third tier cities or whether they're upgraded, because the growing revenue at the moment is in wireless and charging users $10 per gigabyte overages.

Verizon has consistently been losing DSL users in these un-upgraded markets to the cable industry, and appears poised to even cannibalize some of these users further with their own Home Fusion fixed LTE service. That service comes in $60 (10 GB cap), $90 (20 GB cap) and $120 (30 GB plan) flavors that will likely prove far more profitable than DSL -- especially when paired with Verizon's upcoming over-the-top RedBox streaming joint venture.

Another problem is that the CWA's claims on job creation simply aren't reliable. You'll recall the CWA breathlessly supported AT&T's takeover of T-Mobile simply to get another 20,000 dues-paying members, ignoring the tens of thousands of non-unionized support, management and retail jobs that would have been destroyed by the deal. The CWA consistently lied, claiming that deal would create 100,000 jobs -- when they were actually again talking about "job years" -- and ignoring other estimates that predicted heavy employment losses due to the anti-competitive deal.

It's very possible the Verizon cable deal could have anti-competitive implications, but at the moment it's very hard to predict what they are -- since none of the companies involved were likely stupid enough to write those ambitions down. Whether the deal is good or bad, the CWA's credibility on issues of employment after the AT&T fiasco is highly suspect.
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ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Yep..

When a customer can walk into a Verizon Wireless store, and they sell them Time Warner TV , Internet and digital voice, instead of their OWN wireline products (including FiOS) , that is a JOB KILLER. Verizon will abandon their very own wireline services, at a much greater pace than they are now.

Any possibility of further FiOS expansion? Absolutely not if this deal goes through unrestricted. This company needs a kick in the behind to cover their entire area with FiOS.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

said by ITALIAN926:

When a customer can walk into a Verizon Wireless store, and they sell them Time Warner TV , Internet and digital voice, instead of their OWN wireline products (including FiOS) , that is a JOB KILLER.

Has that happened?
said by ITALIAN926:

This company needs a kick in the behind to cover their entire area with FiOS.

"This company" is focusing on generating revenue, and wireless currently has a nice healthy margin. My guess is that building out wireline infrastructure will eventually return after LTE infrastructure is ubiquitously deployed.

bdnhsv
join:2012-01-20
Huntsville, AL

bdnhsv

Member

Re: Yep..

If this deal happens all wireline/FIOS buildout will end for VZ in areas where their MSO partners offer service. There will be no incentive for them to compete - in fact it will be punitive in that the MSO's might retaliate with higher cell backhaul costs to VZ. This is bordering on collusion and a violation of the Sherman Act.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

said by bdnhsv:

If this deal happens all wireline/FIOS buildout will end for VZ in areas where their MSO partners offer service.

It already has
said by bdnhsv:

This is bordering on collusion and a violation of the Sherman Act.

You've got some serious convincing to do to begin making that case.

bdnhsv
join:2012-01-20
Huntsville, AL

bdnhsv

Member

Re: Yep..

Perhaps the buildout would have continued had there not been an agreement reached between VZ and some MSO's. As for the Sherman act - here's a quote from the senator himself:

"To protect the consumers by preventing arrangements designed, or which tend, to advance the cost of goods to the consumer".

I guess we'll all have to wait and see if this goes through and what happens to the prices of the services from VZ and their MSO partners over the next year or two.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

said by bdnhsv:

Perhaps the buildout would have continued had there not been an agreement reached between VZ and some MSO's.

Nope. VZ halted FiOS deployment plans when it began focusing on its LTE build.
said by bdnhsv:

As for the Sherman act - here's a quote from the senator himself:

"To protect the consumers by preventing arrangements designed, or which tend, to advance the cost of goods to the consumer".

I guess we'll all have to wait and see if this goes through and what happens to the prices of the services from VZ and their MSO partners over the next year or two.

That quote can be construed to just about anything. Considering this is a deal to transfer unused spectrum in exchange for a resale agreement in markets that services aren't provided, I'm hard pressed to imagine how any rise in consumer costs might be tied to this arrangement.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: Yep..

quote:
Nope. VZ halted FiOS deployment plans when it began focusing on its LTE build.
I will contend that Verizon halted FiOS deployment when it began focusing on the completion of existing franchise builds.

So, how do YOU know for sure? Hmm?

They halted it, they can restart it just as easily. FiOS makes money, especially when it accelerates the removal of their costly copper infrastructure. You want that nail in FiOS's coffin? This spectrum deal is it, if it goes without rules.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

said by ITALIAN926:

I will contend that Verizon halted FiOS deployment when it began focusing on the completion of existing franchise builds.

Why do you think VZ stopped negotiating new franchise agreements?
said by ITALIAN926:

You want that nail in FiOS's coffin? This spectrum deal is it, if it goes without rules.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: Yep..

Because they have time limits to complete existing agreements ! Im glad we are on the same page. sigh.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

More likely because VZ reached its deployment objective and was ready to focus on its LTE build.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks to openbox9

Member

to openbox9
said by openbox9:

Has that happened?

It will; everybody I've ever worked with at Verizon Wireless (from salespeople in the stores, my corporate rep, and Level 3 support) has nothing but disdain for Verizon Wireline. Many of them even claim that "They don't own us, we're a separate company." and then look at you all befuddled when you point out the fact that Verizon owns 55% of them.

I'm not sure of the CWA's demands are reasonable but I'm inclined to be sympathetic towards them. I've worked in IT for 15 years and have had my ass pulled out of the fire on more than one occasion by my friends at the telephone company (both Verizon and Frontier). When we had the floods here they were on site the minute the waters receded and started restoring services. The local cableco took days to get out to our locations and weeks before they had everything fixed.
said by openbox9:

My guess is that building out wireline infrastructure will eventually return after LTE infrastructure is ubiquitously deployed.

That's going to depend on who is running the show at Verizon. Didn't their current CEO come up through Verizon Wireless? If upper management is filled with people from the wireless side of the business with no understanding of the wireline side I'm not very optimistic that we'll see substantial investment in wireline.

openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

said by Crookshanks:

It will; everybody I've ever worked with at Verizon Wireless (from salespeople in the stores, my corporate rep, and Level 3 support) has nothing but disdain for Verizon Wireline.

Ok, but my question was related to VZ reselling cable TV services in its FiOS-enabled markets.
said by Crookshanks:

Didn't their current CEO come up through Verizon Wireless?

Yes. But if the board believes that the CEO, regardless of his/her heritage, isn't driving the company in the right direction for shareholders, it's obligated to make change. Once that fat cow known as wireless goes to market, wireline will become a focus again....IMHO.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: Yep..

said by openbox9:

Ok, but my question was related to VZ reselling cable TV services in its FiOS-enabled markets.

Which will happen. VZW employees are paid commissions for new sign-ups/contract renewals. If they can convince people to buy services with bundle discounts they'll do so.

The only way to stop this would be for Verizon to provide similar bundling discounts for FIOS/wireless combos. To the best of my knowledge they don't do this. I had all of my services with them (landline, wireless, DSL) bundled on one bill and received nothing in return other than the simplicity of a consolidated bill.
said by openbox9:

Yes. But if the board believes that the CEO, regardless of his/her heritage, isn't driving the company in the right direction for shareholders, it's obligated to make change.

That's how it's SUPPOSED to work. In the real world the board members are oftentimes old college roommates/drinking buddies/golf buddies with the CEO and other corporate officers. I've watched it happen in small non-profits and Fortune 500 companies. How many companies have you seen driven into the ground by inept CEOs who received little to no oversight from the board?
said by openbox9:

Once that fat cow known as wireless goes to market, wireline will become a focus again....IMHO.

I hope you're right but the vibe that I'm getting is that Verizon wants to get out of the wireline business. They'll retain their flagship market (NYC, hell they still deploy PAYPHONES there...) and some of the higher ROI (read: rich) areas but the rest of the landline network will be sold off piece by piece as willing buyers become available.

In a way I think that's a good thing. Frontier gets a lot of flak around here but they do actually invest in their network and don't have the same conflicts of interest as Verizon. They don't get any credit for it here because they lack the capital to deploy FTTH on a massive scale but they've been a godsend to many of my friends in rural areas around these parts.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

said by Crookshanks:

Which will happen.

Hasn't happened yet and it doesn't make any sense that it will.
said by Crookshanks:

That's how it's SUPPOSED to work. In the real world the board members are oftentimes old college roommates/drinking buddies/golf buddies with the CEO and other corporate officers. I've watched it happen in small non-profits and Fortune 500 companies. How many companies have you seen driven into the ground by inept CEOs who received little to no oversight from the board?

I won't dispute the ineptitude of some boards and management teams. As a VZ shareholder, I don't believe that's currently a concern.
said by Crookshanks:

I hope you're right but the vibe that I'm getting is that Verizon wants to get out of the wireline business.

If VZ ever buys the outstanding 45% of Cellco, then that might be an option. Still someone will buy the consumer FTTH markets and do something with them if that ever happens. As you suggest, that isn't necessarily a bad thing for consumers.
Crookshanks
join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY

Crookshanks

Member

Re: Yep..

said by openbox9:

Hasn't happened yet and it doesn't make any sense that it will.

The deal hasn't been in place long enough to see what will happen. If you've been paying attention though I don't think you can deny the fact that VZW has never really cooperated with VZ or cross-sold VZ wireline products. Frankly I don't understand WHY this is but it has always been this way. Landline can combine bills with wireless but not the other way around.

Just answer this: What incentive is there for a VZW employee NOT to bundle cable service in a FIOS market? There's no mechanism in place for him to bundle VZ wireline products, so why wouldn't he bundle cable, particularly if it helps him close a sale?

I don't think this is part of any master plan to eliminate the wireline division, I just think that division is becoming the ugly stepchild of VZ. The current management team came up through Cellco and doesn't give much thought (good or bad) to the wireline side of the business.
said by openbox9:

If VZ ever buys the outstanding 45% of Cellco

The only way I see that happening is if Vodaphone breaks into the US market on its own. That doesn't appear very likely to happen though; they could have made a play for T-Mobile USA after the AT&T deal failed but that obviously didn't happen. For better or worse it appears they are happy to rest on their laurels and cash Cellco dividend checks. I'm sure Verizon would LOVE to buy them out but they've been trying for years and Vodaphone hasn't shown any interest in selling.

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

NOCTech75 to ITALIAN926

Premium Member

to ITALIAN926
said by ITALIAN926:

When a customer can walk into a Verizon Wireless store, and they sell them Time Warner TV , Internet and digital voice, instead of their OWN wireline products (including FiOS) , that is a JOB KILLER.

As opposed to the AT&T/TMobile that was a job winner right?

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

1 edit

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: Yep..

I could not care less about that deal, don't reply to my comment with something that is completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Selling competitive wireline products in an actual Verizon store is like walking into a Target, and the employees say " Dont shop here for clothing or food, theres a Walmart down the street" !!! To make matters worse, its Targets management directing their employees to do this.

Result? Target closes.

NOCTech75
Premium Member
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA

NOCTech75

Premium Member

Re: Yep..

You just don't like the response.. and it is very relevant considering CWA's support of a horrid merger.
Dampier
Phillip M Dampier
join:2003-03-23
Rochester, NY

Dampier

Member

Cutting a Deal

Somehow, I suspect Justice may actually figure out a way to craft a deal that approves this cross-marketing, if Verizon agrees to finish rolling out FiOS in more areas -and- not sell cable products in FiOS areas.

It seems the only way you can get some of these companies to do the right thing is make it part of a deal for approving something else. Nobody else seems to be able to override Wall Street analyst superpowers.
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

etaadmin

Member

Re: Cutting a Deal

said by Dampier:

Somehow, I suspect Justice may actually figure out a way to craft a deal that approves this cross-marketing, if Verizon agrees to finish rolling out FiOS in more areas -and- not sell cable products in FiOS areas.

It seems the only way you can get some of these companies to do the right thing is make it part of a deal for approving something else. Nobody else seems to be able to override Wall Street analyst superpowers.

Been there... done that »www.newnetworks.com/broa ··· dals.htm

The US government should not force some company to invest in something that they don't want to invest in. Even if Verizon sells cable internet in FiOS areas chances are that the public will not buy them but this is something that I agree with.

If the above link did not work what else is left that can be used by the US government to 'force' these companies to invest in FTTH or wireless services?

nothing00
join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

nothing00

Member

Re: Cutting a Deal

said by etaadmin:

Been there... done that »www.newnetworks.com/broa ··· dals.htm

The US government should not force some company to invest in something that they don't want to invest in.

Well if they don't like the conditions they don't have to have the merger.
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

etaadmin

Member

Re: Cutting a Deal

said by nothing00:

said by etaadmin:

Been there... done that »www.newnetworks.com/broa ··· dals.htm

The US government should not force some company to invest in something that they don't want to invest in.

Well if they don't like the conditions they don't have to have the merger.

There is no merger involved shessh!
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer

Premium Member

Re: Cutting a Deal

No but his point is still valid. If they don't like the conditions, they can just walk away... no one is forcing anyone to do anything.
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

1 recommendation

etaadmin

Member

CWA just a puppet of AT&T

As a TWC and a Verizon wireless subscriber I would like to take advantage of getting a better price for all my services by bundling so I see an advantage for me as a consumer.

For those Verizon internet subscriber that can't get FiOS under the arrangement they can get fast docsis3.0 services... another plus.

Cable companies don't have a wireless offering and Verizon can't offer FiOS and in many cases they don't offer anything to all their customers... another plus.

Jobs are not in jeopardy here since there is no duplication in services... one company offer wireless and the other doesn't, one company offer a better internet coverage area and the other doesn't... another plus.

Perhaps some jobs will be created but they won't be union jobs and this is what bothers the CWA.

To me this is a good deal.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

1 recommendation

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: CWA just a puppet of AT&T

Yea, will be a great deal when Verizon landline services are eliminated altogether,and that quaddruple-play you yearn for costs you $400 a month. WAKE UP.

If youre in a non-Verizon area, thats not as bad. But if you can get Verizon FiOS, DSL, even a landline where you live, you are completely naive.
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

etaadmin

Member

Re: CWA just a puppet of AT&T

said by ITALIAN926:

Yea, will be a great deal when Verizon landline services are eliminated altogether,and that quaddruple-play you yearn for costs you $400 a month. WAKE UP.

If youre in a non-Verizon area, thats not so bad. But if you can get Verizon FiOS, DSL, even a landline, you are completely naive.

Let's not be carried away by speculation... shall we? Things are not white nor black they are shades of gray.

If I was able to get FiOS I WOULD GET IT! Simple as that, but if I lived in a Verizon adsl (6? 10? Mbps) territory with no prospects of getting FiOS anytime soon... or never I would like to bundle Verizon's re-branded docsis3.0 (50? 100? Mbps).

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: CWA just a puppet of AT&T

This is the point, there is no shade of gray. If this deal goes through without restrictions, you will NEVER, EVER, be able to get FiOS. There is not a drop of incentive for Verizon to expand it to your area, if theyre in bed with the cable co's

Black and White
etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
united state

etaadmin

Member

Re: CWA just a puppet of AT&T

said by ITALIAN926:

This is the point, there is no shade of gray. If this deal goes through without restrictions, you will NEVER, EVER, be able to get FiOS. There is not a drop of incentive for Verizon to expand it to your area, if theyre in bed with the cable co's

Black and White

No, everything is shades of gray.

Refer to the link in my reply to Dampier See Profile »Re: Cutting a Deal

If 300 Billion dollars didn't do the trick what makes you think banning this deal will?

The issue here is not the fiber optic cable, to me the issue here is fast wideband connections and that can easily be achieved with docsis3.0 especially for those under-served adsl subscribers and at a fraction of the cost.

Verizon knows this and this is why they've stopped further FiOS deployments. With docsis3.0 cablecos can respond to any reasonable Verizon internet upgrade... and I said reasonable because surely cablecos today can't offer a 1Gbps connection... not today anyway »www.engadget.com/2011/06 ··· e-modem/

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

1 recommendation

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: CWA just a puppet of AT&T

That link is ridiculous. Verizon and AT&T have passed like 50+million homes in the US with FiOS and Uverse. So tell me, wheres your scandal? The real scandal is how two wireline companies are making deals behind the scenes, and further FiOS expansion is being eliminated, along with competition re: DSL and landlines.
prisaz
join:2008-08-11
Germantown, MD

prisaz

Member

Re: CWA just a puppet of AT&T

said by ITALIAN926:

That link is ridiculous. Verizon and AT&T have passed like 50+million homes in the US with FiOS and Uverse. So tell me, wheres your scandal? The real scandal is how two wireline companies are making deals behind the scenes, and further FiOS expansion is being eliminated, along with competition re: DSL and landlines.

Isn't that the truth!! No wires just metered wireless service. No CAPs, just limits per month and open you wallet!
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

1 recommendation

CXM_Splicer to ITALIAN926

Premium Member

to ITALIAN926
You are absolutely correct... elimination of competition is never good for the consumer and cable/Internet prices WOULD GO UP because of this deal.
prisaz
join:2008-08-11
Germantown, MD

3 edits

1 recommendation

prisaz

Member

Verizon and Cable Bad From the start!

When I first heard Verizon and cable getting in bed together I wanted to puke! Bad news from the start. If this is not something the DOJ should put a stop to, what is? Verizon working a deal with Comcast to get their bandwidth? Come on NOW! How could this be let to happen. They started as compeditors, and now holding hands. I guess there is more money to be made that way. Can't eliminate them, join them!

THE deal with ATT and T Mobile was stopped.

Now who is in whos' pocket?

Someone needs to open their eyes at the DOJ and FCC!

"while the DOJ appears to be concerned about the anti-competitive impact."!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone needs to be!

Greed will kill the Internet!
prisaz

prisaz

Member

Re: Verizon and Cable Bad From the start!

Update!
It looks to me that Verizon will not upgrade BPON areas to GPON, where Comcast is their only competitor's. Seems like uncompetitive practice, price fixing, and co marketing to me! Looking at my market area, Verizon or Comcast in Montgomery County Maryland are in no hurry to provide anything faster than 50Mb/s. I have 75/35 which seems the limit for me, as Verizon has no desire to provide upgrades to the C/O to sell GPON.

Looking at most of the available bundles, Verizon is trying to limit them to 50/20 to prevent saturation of their over subscribed BPON. Once they started going above 20/5 on BPON, if you have 32 ONTs on the OLT in the C/O. You are maxed out if everyone starts using the web or watching HD VOD. Glitches and pauses I have started to see while viewing. So if I have 75/35 and start seeing issues, I would hate to see what users at 15/5 see, or ex DSL users at 3/1. I have my IP going though a router that graphs traffic stats, and 1 HD VOD showed about 15Mb/s for about 1hr. and 40 min. So I can see where heavy usage is starting to create issues. I wanted to upgrade and pay them the fee they said, no not just a splitter in the C/O but more hardware is required. You would think the Montgomery County, Maryland having the population we have, would support GPON. Ha!

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

It's pretty telling of the state of the nation today...

...when a formerly powerful union is now just the parrot of AT&T.
midwesttech
join:2012-03-09

midwesttech

Member

Re: It's pretty telling of the state of the nation today...

Do you have any facts to back up that the CWA is in cahoots with AT&T and trying to stop the merger? Why would AT&T want to stop their chance at additional spectrum which they could easily obtain from Verizon after the deal? This is basically the same situation Verizon was in during the Centennial merger, in which they had a valid reason to dispute the merger, but withheld because they were going to get spectrum out of the deal. Verizon and AT&T would much rather sell each other spectrum back and forth to keep it out of the hands of smaller competitors.
dmine45
join:2002-11-03
Fredericksburg, VA

dmine45

Member

Wireless is where the future is

Wireless (4G LTE) is the future. Verizon won't bother expanding FiOS any further than where it is now. If you have it, consider yourself lucky. If you don't have it, you won't get it.

But Verizon's more profitable wireless division will gladly sell you an expensive data package for all the streaming you want to you little iPad or Android tablet.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Wireless is where the future is

said by dmine45:

Wireless (4G LTE) is the future. Verizon won't bother expanding FiOS any further than where it is now. If you have it, consider yourself lucky. If you don't have it, you won't get it.

But Verizon's more profitable wireless division will gladly sell you an expensive data package for all the streaming you want to you little iPad or Android tablet.

Everybody has been saying for years that broadband's future is wireless. Well it is almost here. And the future is more costly initially until competition becomes widespread.
daake07
join:2011-06-28
Kearney, NE

daake07

Member

The expansion was over in 2010 get over it.

I say this every single time in one of these Verizon cross marketing threads, this is something all of the companies do. Guess what Centurylink does the same marketing service with Direct TV and Verizon...and they offer an IPTV service in select markets.

Verizon has no intentions of expanding their service as they haven't done it in almost 2 years. Don't try to play the what-if card, it will not work in this case.

Verizon's FIOS and DSL foot print are rather small so a large number of Verizon Wireless customers could care less. Those same customers are more likely to actually have one of these cable companies and if they can save $5 a month by bundling all of the services, by all means they should be able to. I can tell you right now that if Charter had been part of this cable deal I would be signing up this moment. This is a spectrum sale and should be analyzed as such, these sales take place all of the time.

Verizon clearly showed that they were abandoning wireline services with the sale to Frontier, there simply is no money in it for a business. This is the same reason AT&T would love to sell their wireline service, sadly they can't find a buyer with decent debt burden and sure aren't going to find one with cash.

Math is the one that thing that is consistent throughout the world....that is unless a union is involved. They apparently just make this crap up.