Cable Carriers Miss Tru2Way Deadline A decade of delays and counting... Tipped by ajwees41 
Prompted by legislation, the cable industry has been working for more than a decade on the OCAP (Open Cable) specification, which would allow consumer electronics vendors to embed cable functionality directly into TVs and other devices -- a more elegant replacement for the CableCARD. Back in January, the cable industry announced Tru2way, a re-imagining of OCAP technology that's supposed to work with any cable carrier. According to Multichannel News, the nation's six largest cable companies won't have Tru2way deployed across their entire footprints as they agreed with consumer hardware vendors last year.
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1 edit | I don't think they even care Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee.
SE Cable originally sold me cablecards but when I called to ask about getting more for another TV they told me that I had to rent them now. Seems to me like that monthly revenue stream is too good to pass up. | |
|  | | | Re: I don't think they even care said by fifty nine:Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee. SE Cable originally sold me cablecards but when I called to ask about getting more for another TV they told me that I had to rent them now. Seems to me like that monthly revenue stream is too good to pass up. if you have money to spend every few years when new technology comes out you should be able to by the cable card/box, but there are still people who prefwer to rent and they are probably the majority. | |
| | |  n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
 ·Optimum Online
2 edits | Re: I don't think they even care said by ajwees41:if you have money to spend every few years when new technology comes out you should be able to by the cable card/box, but there are still people who prefwer to rent and they are probably the majority. That is probably the same argument AT&T used for decades when people had to rent their phones instead of being able to buy them. Funny thing was, when AT&T was broken up in 1984, millions of people scrapped their AT&T phone, and the monthly rental charges, and bought their own phones (I was one of them - the lines at the AT&T Phone Center Stores were huge and there were piles of old returned phones everywhere).
A $50-$100 "open platform" box that can replace a proprietary cable company box would be worth it. That price is probably within the realm of possibility if the proprietary nature of the current boxes is eliminated and manufacturers can make an open one that works on any CATV system. Just look at the price of DTV converter boxes and how they have come down in price as more of them hit the market. Cablevision charges $10/month plus something like $2/month for the remote for one box. In less that 12 months, you could pay off a cheap box. If it breaks after two years, so what? Get a new one. Most people right now assume that you have to have a box because it is magical. Tell them they can stop paying monthly rental fees and I suspect a lot of people would jump at the chance. A cable box should be no different than a cable modem.
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I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
| | | | | said by ajwees41:said by fifty nine:Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee. SE Cable originally sold me cablecards but when I called to ask about getting more for another TV they told me that I had to rent them now. Seems to me like that monthly revenue stream is too good to pass up. if you have money to spend every few years when new technology comes out you should be able to by the cable card/box, but there are still people who prefwer to rent and they are probably the majority. That would be true if they weren't charging a whopping $10 for the HD cable box, $15 for a DVR.
With 1 cablecard at $125 I pay zero monthly fees so I break even in a year and 15 days. | |
| | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care said by fifty nine:said by ajwees41:said by fifty nine:Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee. SE Cable originally sold me cablecards but when I called to ask about getting more for another TV they told me that I had to rent them now. Seems to me like that monthly revenue stream is too good to pass up. if you have money to spend every few years when new technology comes out you should be able to by the cable card/box, but there are still people who prefer to rent and they are probably the majority. That would be true if they weren't charging a whopping $10 for the HD cable box, $15 for a DVR. With 1 cablecard at $125 I pay zero monthly fees so I break even in a year and 15 days. how did you figure cable card at $125? you could buy a tivo, but no 2way communication sdv adaptor needed. | |
| | | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care said by ajwees41:how did you figure cable card at $125? you could buy a tivo, but no 2way communication sdv adaptor needed. That's what Service Electric cable charged me for a cablecard.
They do not have SDV nor do they have plans to deploy it as far as I've been told. besides, the sdv tuning resolver is free with most providers.
TiVos are not the only devices to use cablecards. Moxi dvrs and even some TVs have them. I have a cablecard TV. | |
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| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | 
You buy a Tivo, (let's not even get into that 'whopping charge in total) you still pay a fee to Tivo, and often a fee to the cable company to lease/rent a card.
You buy an HD cable box, and pay a "whopping" $500 for it.. you are still going to wind up paying an authorization fee per month AND get to be burdened with all the headaches of ownership, repairs, etc.
You were lucky you got to buy your card.. its VERY rare to find a company, big or small, that sold them.. Comcast, in many systems, gave the first one or two to the customer at no charge... | |
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1 edit | Re: I don't think they even care said by fiberguy: You buy a Tivo, (let's not even get into that 'whopping charge in total) you still pay a fee to Tivo, and often a fee to the cable company to lease/rent a card. You buy an HD cable box, and pay a "whopping" $500 for it.. you are still going to wind up paying an authorization fee per month AND get to be burdened with all the headaches of ownership, repairs, etc. You were lucky you got to buy your card.. its VERY rare to find a company, big or small, that sold them.. Comcast, in many systems, gave the first one or two to the customer at no charge... Tivo is not the only option. Moxi sells cablecard DVRs as well.
You can also buy a TV or media center PC with cablecard capability.
As for lease versus purchase - that was the point. Lots of companies used to sell them but then they realized that it was killing the rental revenue stream so they started supplying them as lease only.
quote:
you are still going to wind up paying an authorization fee per month AND get to be burdened with all the headaches of ownership, repairs, etc.
Tivo is on a lifetime subscription.
Repairs to the TiVo are as simple as replacing a drive. The cablecard repair is a gamble I take but so far in 2+ years not a single problem.
The only "authorization fee" I get charged is 50 cents per additional outlet, starting with your second outlet. Since I only have two TV outlets active, (living room, bedroom), total for that is 50 cents. | |
| | | | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care As for lease versus purchase - that was the point. Lots of companies used to sell them but then they realized that it was killing the rental revenue stream so they started supplying them as lease only.
cox omaha and a local retailer used to sell the Motorola HD boxes, but there wasn't a market for them. I have heard of a us cable company selling a cable box or card. | |
| | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: I don't think they even care said by ajwees41:As for lease versus purchase - that was the point. Lots of companies used to sell them but then they realized that it was killing the rental revenue stream so they started supplying them as lease only. cox omaha and a local retailer used to sell the Motorola HD boxes, but there wasn't a market for them. I have heard of a us cable company selling a cable box or card. Not quite sure where you're getting this information from, but It's not very accurate, at all.
Not speaking about Cox in Omaha, rather in general, "lots" of companies did not sell them.. U.S. Cable companies never, as a rule, sold cable boxes.
As for Cox in Omaha that you speak of, the reason they probably stopped selling them was because there was no market in consumers wishing to purchase a $500 cable box - a bad investment. It's also pretty much the same reason satellite started leasing the boxes as well. When satellite started leasing equipment, they saw an increase of new subscribers again. Many consumers didn't like the hundreds of dollar upfront investment in new converters...
No matter what the minority of people here believe, more people do not like upfront costs. This is pretty apparent every day when you log into BBR and see the overwhelming number of people complaining about equipment fees, etc. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.. maybe it's more just that people hate spending money and want it all for free and think a monthly service fee should cover everything including set up, the service itself, repairs, and everything else they want/need. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care said by fiberguy:When satellite started leasing equipment, they saw an increase of new subscribers again. Many consumers didn't like the hundreds of dollar upfront investment in new converters... That's a load of bull.
The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so.
When I had DirecTV it was $50 or less per box, with some places offering free equipment. Even DVRs were only $99.
As for leasing the equipment, the upfront fee is about the same as what you'd be paying if you owned the box outright.
The reason that satellite companies have been seeing increased sales is because of rising cable rates and cable's piss poor selection of HD channels at 3 per QAM poor quality like Comcrap. That's all it is. | |
| | | | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: I don't think they even care Me thinks you need to re-read the post, stop flying off the handle, and get your facts straight before you make a fool out of yourself.
hint: "The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so." | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care said by fiberguy:Me thinks you need to re-read the post, stop flying off the handle, and get your facts straight before you make a fool out of yourself. hint: "The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so." My facts are straight, buddy. You're just full of it and hate to admit when you're wrong. | |
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·Armstrong Zoom ..
| Re: I don't think they even care I remember buying a sat dish and receiver for over $500 in 2000 or so. I set it up myself, hooked it up, all was well.
Now, the receivers you buy are not $100, they are a lot more, but are subsidized by the contract with DirecTV. For example, you can go to solidsignal.com and buy a receiver for $99 BUT it requires a contract addition. Normally they would cost a lot more.
DirecTV, cable companies, everyone that has proprietary hardware out there has made a deal so the boxes could be bought at a cheaper price NOW and get more customers.
Currently, if you buy your own box or have them come and do a full install, if you cancel, you return the "purchased" box back to DirecTV or pay $350 for each box not returned. Sounds like it is STILL about $500 (the dish is $25 if you want to be anal about it, so it is more like $468 unless you get an HD DVR, then you are over the $500 range).
Backed up by both research and my own personal experiences  | |
| | | | | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | said by fifty nine:said by fiberguy:Me thinks you need to re-read the post, stop flying off the handle, and get your facts straight before you make a fool out of yourself. hint: "The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so." My facts are straight, buddy. You're just full of it and hate to admit when you're wrong. Okay.. let me embarrass you now..
I'm wrong huh?
I said: "As for Cox in Omaha that you speak of, the reason they probably stopped selling them was because there was no market in consumers wishing to purchase a $500 cable box - a bad investment."
You said: "The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so."
I then said: Me thinks you need to re-read the post, stop flying off the handle, and get your facts straight before you make a fool out of yourself.
hint: "The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so.""
and then you tell me to get my facts straight..
Ummm.. I don't know what planet you're on, but I was talking about CABLE TV EQUIPMENT and then you come in on wings and a prayer with your Satellite equipment argument referring to SATELLITE EQUIPMENT and said "The equipment for satellite was NOT $500, at least not within the last 10 years or so."
And then I tell you not to fly off the handle and get your facts straight and then you tell me that I'm full of it..
Seriously.. are you kidding me with this?
You're off in left field on some tangent and you're trying to make me look a fool?
Grow up.. you're clearly off base here and if you say otherwise, you can be a fool all you want..
You were TOTALLY off topic and now you're trying to be an ass about it.. bravo! | |
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| | | | | | | | | the first part was what Eat me said. the cox part was what they did when hd first arrived in Omaha via cox. | |
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| | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Correction.. Tivo HAS a life-time "of the unit" subscription OPTION... meaning, you can purchase a life-time subscription, but if that box goes bad, or you upgrade or buy a new one, that subscription goes with the box.
And, not all repairs to the Tivo is as simple as replacing a hard drive.. not sure where you got that from. | |
| | | | | | |  DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1 | Re: I don't think they even care I have a replaytv unit, that is 10 yrs old. Really tivo probably will last the same length, and if it doesnt in 3 years i would have spend the same renting. | |
| | | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: I don't think they even care So then you're saying the gamble worked for you.. there are people out there that will tell you the same in reverse.
As I raise my hand, the Tivo we got our parents a few years ago had a "lifetime" subscription on it - 18 months later, it died... as did the "lifetime" subscription... "of the unit"...
Guess the outcome isn't the same for everyone, huh? | |
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| fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | said by fifty nine:Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee. Actually, they could care less.. think about it. Your statement is a little factually incorrect. If there is equipment in the house, or not, that they rent you, they're still going to charge you per-television anyway. If *I* were running the company, I'd gladly welcome this, remove the need to purchase, deploy, and maintain converters,... let the consumer buy their own stuff and still charge the $5 per set to authorize them..
The per TV fee will not go away until or unless congress finds a way to make a compelling argument as to why. Don't forget, the providers have rights too.. they have to protect their signals somehow. And, until XM/Sirius, DirecTV, Dish, and everyone else charging a per-item fee is forced to stop, they will continue the per-set fee. Otherwise, you'll have Jr. tossing on his parents sets to his account, or his friends.. etc.
So.. in the end, it's really a wash.. OCAP isn't a way for you to discard the box fee.. it's a way to have a choice in equipment you choose to use in your home is all. | |
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1 edit | Re: I don't think they even care said by fiberguy:said by fifty nine:Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee. Actually, they could care less.. think about it. Your statement is a little factually incorrect. If there is equipment in the house, or not, that they rent you, they're still going to charge you per-television anyway. If *I* were running the company, I'd gladly welcome this, remove the need to purchase, deploy, and maintain converters,... let the consumer buy their own stuff and still charge the $5 per set to authorize them.. Right now I have cablecards, and the only fee per TV I pay is 50 cents per additional outlet. First outlet is free. They don't charge for the first standard def boxes but HD boxes are definitely chargeable.
Only other charges are programming.
My total cable bill with 10 meg HSI was $108.55 including franchise fee and taxes for two TVs and HD package. Included in that was the 50 cent outlet fee.
Regardless of the cost reason, I just hate cable boxes. They are ugly and not an elegant solution for wall mounted TVs in rooms where you just want the TV on a wall without an ugly box on a shelf somewhere.
I've heard of comcast ripping people off with $6 AO fees, which is just plain ridiculous IMO. | |
| | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1 | said by fiberguy:So.. in the end, it's really a wash.. OCAP isn't a way for you to discard the box fee.. it's a way to have a choice in equipment you choose to use in your home is all. What choice? With OCAP the only thing that will be different is the button layout and color of your remote, and the size and color of your cable box. The entire interface, behavior, and features are defined by the cable company's Java applet. If that applet is as fucking slow as Vista on a Pentium 2, or is as intuitive to use as a nuclear reactor control room, there nothing you can do about it. | |
| | |  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | said by fiberguy:said by fifty nine:Let's face it. The cable companies want to put a box in your house so they can keep charging that lovely rental fee. let the consumer buy their own stuff and still charge the $5 per set to authorize them. Thats what direct tv is currently doing.
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When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
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| | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care said by DaveDude:The cable cos , should just charge you for the card, and warranty it for a year, since you cant get it anywhere else. The monthly device fee is the ultimate rip. They are using separable security as a service, just to use their service. A customer should be able to buy a card, from a retailer. The cable company is using it, as an excuse for a not charging for a box. There should be a one-time setup fee, and warranteed for the duration of service. I have no love left for cable. That's what they did with me - sold me the card for $125 and warranty for a year (mfg warranty from motorola). | |
| | | | | | Re: I don't think they even care That's strange. The cable co I work for only leases the cards at $1.99/mo and will not authorize any third party cards. | |
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| | | SO SHOCKING! DID IT MAKE THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NY TIMES? I BET SEN. STUART SMALLEY HAS STARTED AN INVESTIGATION! I BET THEY'LL BLAME IT ON BUSH! THE FCC IS INVESTIGATING! | |
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| | When? "Back in January" .. of what year?
Actually I thought it was the 2007 CES. | |
| | | Karl, OCAP does not replace CableCARDs said by Karl :
the cable industry has been working for more than a decade on the OCAP (Open Cable) specification, which would allow consumer electronics vendors to embed cable functionality directly into TVs and other devices -- a more elegant replacement for the CableCARD. Neither OCAP nor tru2way are replacements for CableCARD.
CableCARD is the security key standard.
CHILA (CableCARD Host Interface Licensing Agreement) had defined the hardware specs.
OCAP (OpenCable Application Platform) defined the software specs.
TOGETHER those 3 make up tru2way aka OpenCable.
DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access System) would be the replacement for CableCARDs, but it's not a standard yet. | |
|  nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | And this is surprising, why? They're just taking a page out of the telcos' book: promise something then not deliver. Then again, I'm not seeing that they promised something, took a big payout to do that something, then opted to not do it (but were still allowed to keep the money). So, they seem to have missed on that opportunity.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
| bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA | tru2way is not a replacement for CableCARD The linked article does not mention CableCARD at all, so implying that missing the tru2way deadline has anything to do with "a more elegant replacement for CableCARD" is horribly misleading. | |
| DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·Vonage
·ViaTalk
| Delay Its all about were cable, and we have the power. Unfortunately this is the one time , i think the government should get involved, not spend money, and fine the cable industry like 5 million dollars a day if it doesnt get released soon. I think if its not around by Jan 1 first, someone should push some really toothy legislation. | |
| | | tru2way From what I was told, it was that no TV supports it besides Panasonic. | |
| | | | Re: tru2way said by visuelz:From what I was told, it was that no TV supports it besides Panasonic. Tivo supposedly has a DVR in the works that will support it.
If it is deployed they will definitely have a DVR that supports it. | |
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| | New FCC The new FCC head should take a look at this issue as a great starting point to tackle. I flat out refuse to rent from the cable company and have my own TIVO's with my own cable cards as well. Fuck those greedy cable companies.
Were I to have FIOS in my area I would not be with Comcrap. | |
| | beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH | Re: New FCC You'd have the exact same issues/limitations with FIOS (outside of needing the free SDV adapter). | |
| | | | | Re: New FCC Fair enough. I agree with you actually. My reason for wanting FIOS though is more in the "quality HD signal" and "fast internet access" reasoning.
I would be more willing to put up with a companies bullshit if I was getting a quality product. | |
| | | DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Vonage
·ViaTalk
| said by beaups:You'd have the exact same issues/limitations with FIOS (outside of needing the free SDV adapter). But what you, and every other cable supporter doesnt understand, they still loose a customer to a competitor. I might have to deal with the same problem, but i am not giving my money to comcast . Thats the reasoning. Make sense, should i explain more...
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They Live... We Sleep...
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| | | | beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH | Re: New FCC Actually, yes...please explain more...your post makes zero sense. | |
| | | | | DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Vonage
·ViaTalk
| Re: New FCC said by beaups:Actually, yes...please explain more...your post makes zero sense. So you want Verizon to have more subscribers, then Comcast ? | |
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Yeah, they been working real hard on it.... I mean slaving away and all.
Kinda like the Telcos and their rush to comply with TA1996 back in the day.
Yeah, they've been working on it.
Sure.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | Re: Yeah, they been working real hard on it.... Actually, they have been working on it. In fact so much that they abandoned development on their legacy systems for a while and are now lagging behind in features as compared to FiOS, U-Verse and satellite. The legacy base however is substantial and it is not going away anytime soon.
The equipment vendors themselves are not entirely ready for OCAP. Their devices are expensive, clumsy, slow, unreliable, and lacking a full standard compliance.
Despair not, you will see big changes in the next couple of years. | |
| | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Yeah, they been working real hard on it.... said by verolom:Despair not, you will see big changes in the next couple of years. Once the Chinese introduce them, you mean? 
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| | | | | | Re: Yeah, they been working real hard on it.... Well, many set-top boxes are made in Mexico. Yay! NAFTA! | |
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| | I will keep mine I will keep my cable boxes. When they break they will service them. When your crap Best Buy box breaks guess what you will probably pay a nice service fee for the cable guy to come out and fix it. Nice pipe dream people. Keep the boxes. If the cable companies could spend more time refining the network and their own boxes (companies they work with) and less time worrying about people that whine about 15 bucks per month. Meanwhile the same people are probably driving around gas hog SUV's maybe we can get a stable network.
Keep it the way it is. Take Tru2way and shove it! Put it in the same place as the cable card crap! In the trash where it belongs next to TIVO'S | |
| |  linicxCaveat EmptorPremium
join:2002-12-03
United State | Re: I will keep mine My thoughts are simple. I will not buy any phone tied to an AT&T contract.
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Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside | |
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Cable getting too much money through Terminal Rental Fees.