  Jmartz
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ | This isn't surprising... Since none of the companies advertise that they are available nor do they educate customers as to what they are for. | |
|
 |  Marduk
join:2004-09-05
West Chester, PA | Re: This isn't surprising... said by Jmartz:Since none of the companies advertise that they are available nor do they educate customers as to what they are for. Nor do comcast employees know what they are for. | |
|
| |
| |  djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:1
 ·Verizon Wireless..
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·AT&T U-Verse
 ·VOIPo
·PHONE POWER
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by r81984:Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo. Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows. Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways. Or rich people who like the option to pay for something better than what the MSO is offering. I agree though, Series 3 TiVos are VERY pricey, especially if your cable company charges a CableCARD rental fee.
--
AT&T U-Hearse
Your funeral. Delivered.
| |
|
| | | jmr50
join:2000-05-14
New York, NY | Re: This isn't surprising... TiVo HD are $300. I'm not sure this constitutes "very pricy" in a world of $150 cable bills. | |
|
| | Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
| As a tivo owner, I resent your comment. I picked up a Tivo HD for $150, which is reasonable, and my monthly fees are considerably less for a DVR from my cable company. Cox wants $18/mo for a HD-DVR that only holds 20 hours. I pay $10/mo + $2 for the cable card and I have 400 hours of space.
--
This Space for Rent... | |
|
| | | | | Re: This isn't surprising... Not to mention the nice streaming from my Netflix account and the ability to easily transfer my shows to my mobile devices. | |
|
| | | |
| | | | | | Re: This isn't surprising... said by r81984:said by nightdesigns:As a tivo owner, I resent your comment. I picked up a Tivo HD for $150, which is reasonable, and my monthly fees are considerably less for a DVR from my cable company. Cox wants $18/mo for a HD-DVR that only holds 20 hours. I pay $10/mo + $2 for the cable card and I have 400 hours of space. Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that???? My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees. No jokes.
Lets see I'd easily pay $800 for a Dual HD tuner HTPC what would look good in my entertainment center. This PC would probably need to be replaced in 3 years.
I paid $150 for my HD Tivo and pay $10/month for service.
Lets do the math. $150 + (36*10) = $510
$510 or $800?
The PC would be easier to upgrade and have more flexibility, and could be cheaper if you went with a Linux solution. But sometimes the wife wants something easy to point and click to use without a hicup EVER.
All in all it's a matter of what's important to the end user and certainly isn't as simple as you would like it to seem. | |
|
| | | | |  r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by Uncle Paul:said by r81984:said by nightdesigns:As a tivo owner, I resent your comment. I picked up a Tivo HD for $150, which is reasonable, and my monthly fees are considerably less for a DVR from my cable company. Cox wants $18/mo for a HD-DVR that only holds 20 hours. I pay $10/mo + $2 for the cable card and I have 400 hours of space. Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that???? My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees. No jokes. Lets see I'd easily pay $800 for a Dual HD tuner HTPC what would look good in my entertainment center. This PC would probably need to be replaced in 3 years. I paid $150 for my HD Tivo and pay $10/month for service. Lets do the math. $150 + (36*10) = $510 $510 or $800? The PC would be easier to upgrade and have more flexibility, and could be cheaper if you went with a Linux solution. But sometimes the wife wants something easy to point and click to use without a hicup EVER. All in all it's a matter of what's important to the end user and certainly isn't as simple as you would like it to seem. Why would you have to replace your PC every 3 years???
Also I built my MCE PC for under $200 and hooked it up to my LCD TV. Also my computer illiterate girlfriend has no problem using it. I do not see how it is hard to use MCE.
If you cant use MCE then you will never be able to use a Tivo or even a digital cable box.
Can you put your own downloaded movies on a Tivo? Or does that cost extra per month?
Also I could make a Dual HD tuner MCE for about $300 and one with cablecard support for about $400 to $500. All without a monthly fee.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! | |
|
| | | | | | | | Re: This isn't surprising... Just part of future planning. We schedule computer replacement every three years or so for no other reason than moving technology.
I find it very hard to believe a quality HTPC can be built for $200 or even $500 being a Microsoft OS OEM from Newegg alone is $99, $100 per HD tuner, $80 cheap MB, $80 cheap CPU, $120 decent case, $70 HD, $60 good quiet PS, etc etc.
I don't download movies except via Netflix, but Tivo will handle Amazon movies, YouTube, and Disney.
It will also transfer pictures, music, and some video (not sure what types.. never done it) from any PC on your network to your Tivo unit to play on your TV.
The Netflix integretion works real well though. We've been pretty happy since it was a free add on. | |
|
| | | | | | | | | Re: This isn't surprising... I run a home brew DVR.
I took a older computer. It's siting behind my tv. make almost no noise
Celeron 1.5 gig system with a 5700 Nvidia card 500 gig Hard drive. 1 gig of ram. I run GBPVR gbpvr.com (FREE) which is a windows based system.
I added a Happenauge 1600 card to it. 59 bucks!
Now I just pay a yearly fee of 20 dollars for convenience of getting the EPG to update without input from me.
Currently I have the software to hold ALL of my mp3's so that my fiancee can listen to her music on the stereo in the living room. It also has Weather on it to let me know what the coming week is going to be with a Doppler radar already built in. It also has Net Radio which allows me to have a ton of channels from the internet streaming.
It allows me to access it remotely and setup a recording from anywhere in the world and after said recording is done I can download it to whereever I am to watch it.
Oh and I have a wireless card in it. | |
|
| | | | | | Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
| said by r81984:Also I could make a Dual HD tuner MCE for about $300 and one with cablecard support for about $400 to $500. All without a monthly fee. And, that right there, you've blown the "MCE is cheaper" argument right out of the water. HD tivos are dual tuner and support cable cards. You're required to have cable card capabilities to get the digital channels from the cable company ... unless you want cable boxes to feed each encoder, and those have a monthly rental fee.
--
This Space for Rent... | |
|
| | | | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by nightdesigns:said by r81984:Also I could make a Dual HD tuner MCE for about $300 and one with cablecard support for about $400 to $500. All without a monthly fee. And, that right there, you've blown the "MCE is cheaper" argument right out of the water. HD tivos are dual tuner and support cable cards. You're required to have cable card capabilities to get the digital channels from the cable company ... unless you want cable boxes to feed each encoder, and those have a monthly rental fee. MCE is cheaper, no monthly fee and more features.
Also, cable companies are moving to switch digital video right now. It is only a short matter of time before your HD Tivo is worthless without an external box to make it work. Some markets already have switched digital video.
It makes no sense to buy an HD Tivo knowing it is already obsolete.
At least with a MCE you can upgrade it to support any new technology.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! | |
|
| | | | | | | | | | Re: This isn't surprising... That's not entirely true.
Only Time Warner Cable has REALLY rolled out SDV.
SDV plans so far appears to have been scrapped by Comcast, instead they are just planning to rip analog channels as fast and easily as they can get away with.
COX rolled it out to portions of Arizona, but in other areas (like Oklahoma City) upgraded to a full 1 GHz cable plant to avoid it.
Cisco (Scientific Atlanta) and Motorola both have SDV Tuning Adapters ready for TiVo HD/Series3 when the cable companies that DO offer SDV get off thier a** and actually deploy them in the field at full speed. | |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
| said by r81984:Also, cable companies are moving to switch digital video right now. It is only a short matter of time before your HD Tivo is worthless without an external box to make it work. Some markets already have switched digital video. Once again, your information about Tivos is incorrect. While the stock Tivo didn't have 2-way cable card access designed into it, tivo has released a "Tuning Resolver" that takes care of that issue. The product is being offered and installed at no charge by most cable companies.
Related to that, PCs equipped with cable cards run into the exact same 1-way communications. Your MCE PC will have the same SDV limitations as a tivo, but without a workaround. Also, per the terms of Cable Labs and Microsoft, an end user cannot build a MCE computer with Cable Card support. Only OEM manufactures have the ability to build, and certify, a system. Both are cable labs requirements for the system to work. If you find a work-around, most likely no cable companies will touch it because they are required to install and activate in approved systems only. A home-built PC, is not one.
--
This Space for Rent... | |
|
| | | | | | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by nightdesigns:said by r81984:Also, cable companies are moving to switch digital video right now. It is only a short matter of time before your HD Tivo is worthless without an external box to make it work. Some markets already have switched digital video. Once again, your information about Tivos is incorrect. While the stock Tivo didn't have 2-way cable card access designed into it, tivo has released a "Tuning Resolver" that takes care of that issue. The product is being offered and installed at no charge by most cable companies. Related to that, PCs equipped with cable cards run into the exact same 1-way communications. Your MCE PC will have the same SDV limitations as a tivo, but without a workaround. Also, per the terms of Cable Labs and Microsoft, an end user cannot build a MCE computer with Cable Card support. Only OEM manufactures have the ability to build, and certify, a system. Both are cable labs requirements for the system to work. If you find a work-around, most likely no cable companies will touch it because they are required to install and activate in approved systems only. A home-built PC, is not one. Wow, thanks for admitting you have no idea what you are talking about.
You can build a MCE cable card PC right now. You do not have to buy it from OEM manufactures.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! | |
|
| | | | | | | | | Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by r81984:Wow, thanks for admitting you have no idea what you are talking about. You can build a MCE cable card PC right now. You do not have to buy it from OEM manufactures. Then enlighten me and show me where I can find the parts. What I've seen has shown me otherwise, but maybe I'm wrong. Prove me wrong then.
--
This Space for Rent... | |
|
| | | | | | | | | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by nightdesigns:said by r81984:Wow, thanks for admitting you have no idea what you are talking about. You can build a MCE cable card PC right now. You do not have to buy it from OEM manufactures. Then enlighten me and show me where I can find the parts. What I've seen has shown me otherwise, but maybe I'm wrong. Prove me wrong then. Yes show me where I can get a cableCARD equipped PC tuner card with out having to buy a pre-built system | |
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |  mech1164I'll Be Back
join:2001-11-19
Lodi, NJ
·Optimum Online
1 edit | Re: This isn't surprising... Lets see on a third party auction site we need to buy these. Do you perhaps have these in you home built MCE and it is working with cablecards? I highly doubt it. First you need Vista Ult 64, then you need a main board that is certified with OCAP from CableLabs. There have been no Main boards advertised with OCAP certification in the wild. If there are they are either refurbished or stolen electronics.
As what M$ has stated publicly, the only systems able to have Cable Card support in Vista. Are ones built by OEM's. Last I looked those systems they're were all over 1K. Now you maybe able to configure one on Dell for less but you get less.
If you can do all this by all means show me I've been trying to do this for over 2 years now. | |
|
| | | |  myosh
join:2001-05-03
Cupertino, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
·Comcast Formerl..
| said by r81984:Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that???? As the owner of two hi-def TiVos, I resent your original post and this reply. I don't pay monthly fees because I have lifetime service on both TiVos. Of course, I paid for one of my lifetime services back in 2000 (8 years ago) which was transferred to one of my hi-def TiVos.
said by r81984:My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Windows? Enough said. 
said by r81984:Real DVRs require no monthly fees. Tell that to the cable companies  | |
|
| | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by myosh:I resent your original post and this reply. I don't pay monthly fees because I have lifetime service on both TiVos. Of course, I paid for one of my lifetime services back in 2000 (8 years ago) which was transferred to one of my hi-def TiVos. What's the point of a lifetime subscription when you have to pay $200 to transfer it to a newer Tivo.
When they have true2way come out for switched digital video you will have to pay $400 on top of the price for two new Tivos.
Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo.
The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for?
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! | |
|
| | | | | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: This isn't surprising... said by r81984:Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo. The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for? Actually... The guide data isn't free.
Yes... there are places online you can get your guide information without paying for it, but if you bother to read the licensing agreements, it is "for non-commercial uses" only.
Company's like TiVO... or Even the MSO's, have to pay licensing fees to the company's they get their guide data from. A good portion of that monthly fee you pay to TiVO, or even for your box-rental fee from the cable company, actually go to cover cost of providing the guide data. | |
|
| | | | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by miscDude:said by r81984:Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo. The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for? Actually... The guide data isn't free. Yes... there are places online you can get your guide information without paying for it, but if you bother to read the licensing agreements, it is "for non-commercial uses" only. Company's like TiVO... or Even the MSO's, have to pay licensing fees to the company's they get their guide data from. A good portion of that monthly fee you pay to TiVO, or even for your box-rental fee from the cable company, actually go to cover cost of providing the guide data. So how come Microsoft does not charge for guides??
Guides are free.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! | |
|
| | | | | | | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: This isn't surprising... said by r81984:said by miscDude:said by r81984:Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo. The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for? Actually... The guide data isn't free. Yes... there are places online you can get your guide information without paying for it, but if you bother to read the licensing agreements, it is "for non-commercial uses" only. Company's like TiVO... or Even the MSO's, have to pay licensing fees to the company's they get their guide data from. A good portion of that monthly fee you pay to TiVO, or even for your box-rental fee from the cable company, actually go to cover cost of providing the guide data. So how come Microsoft does not charge for guides?? Guides are free. If you read the terms of service for the EPG included in Vista's Media center ( »www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/medi···sV3.mspx ), you will notice that Microsoft is reserving the right to change things and start charging you for the service in the future.
The terms also include that "non-comercial / personal use" only clause as well.
It's also interesting to note that while searching for any details on how media center gets it's guide, I found articles in Australia where Microsoft is not providing guide data because the local networks were wanting to charge.
As for why you are not being charged for it right now? I honestly cannot say since I don't know the terms of the agreements they have. It could be that since Microsoft is selling the operating system, and the EPG is a "free optional program", it is able to avoid being seen as someone using that information for commercial purposes and therefore is able to avoid having to license the guide information. (vs TiVO or an MSO who are obviously using the guide information in a commercial enviroment).
It could also be something as simple as microsoft is subsidizing the cost of the guide in order to help their Media Center gain market position. It definately wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has lost money on something in order to help gain that foothold into new markets and try and give themselves a good position early. (XBox / Xbox360 for instance)
Two of the big IPG/EPG providers in the US are Tribune ( »www.tribunemediaentertainment.com/ ) and TV-Guide / Macrovision / Gemstar ( »macrovision.com/ ). From a quick glance of their products, it looks a bit like Macrovision thru their recent buyouts over the past couple years, may be moving towards a business model where they sell (and license) their actual guide software and package the data within those licensing fees. Tribune if you dig down you can see where they have the actual data as a seperate product offering. | |
|
| | | | | | myosh
join:2001-05-03
Cupertino, CA Reviews:
·Pacific Bell - SBC
·Comcast Formerl..
| said by r81984:What's the point of a lifetime subscription when you have to pay $200 to transfer it to a newer Tivo. The way I look at it, I paid $299 eight years ago for the original lifetime service on a Series1 TiVo which was transferred to a Series2 for free which was then transferred to the Series3 for $199. That $500 spread out over 8 years means I paid roughly $5.20 per month for service and it gets lower with each passing month. Compared to what Comcast would have charged me for a DVR, the TiVo is a bargain. Also, how does your MCE PC handle digital cable channels and HD channels? If it involves CableCards or having to get a box from your cable co, then your MCE's "advantage" over TiVo gets that much smaller.
said by r81984:When they have true2way come out for switched digital video you will have to pay $400 on top of the price for two new Tivos. No, I will get two Tuning Adapters so I can still get channels on SDV (which hasn't been implemented in my area yet). | |
|
| | | | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
| said by r81984:My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Really? Does it record shows from premium cable channels like HBO without using a cable box? My cableCARD equipped Tivo does that. I also do not pay a monthly fee since there are lifetime subscription options for Tivo. My cableCARD only cost $1.50 a month from Comcast. Their DVR was $15 and and HD cable box was $10 a month. | |
|
| | | | Jmartz
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ | said by r81984:My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees. Wait until your cable company gets rid of all analog channels and starts encrypting the digital QAM stuff. Your Windows Media Center PC will be worthless unless you have a CableCard. | |
|
| | | | | r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
| Re: This isn't surprising... said by Jmartz:said by r81984:My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees. Wait until your cable company gets rid of all analog channels and starts encrypting the digital QAM stuff. Your Windows Media Center PC will be worthless unless you have a CableCard. You set MCE to operate using a cable box and then you get access to everthing or you can use a cablecard TV tuner.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS! | |
|
| | | | | | b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
1 edit | Re: This isn't surprising... said by r81984:You set MCE to operate using a cable box and then you get access to everthing But now you are paying an extra box fee just to watch TV. 
That's just like paying an extra DRV fee isn't it? | |
|
| | | | | | Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
| said by r81984:said by Jmartz:said by r81984:My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees. Wait until your cable company gets rid of all analog channels and starts encrypting the digital QAM stuff. Your Windows Media Center PC will be worthless unless you have a CableCard. You set MCE to operate using a cable box and then you get access to everthing or you can use a cablecard TV tuner. Which takes you right back to the point you were trying to make, why pay the tivo monthly service fee. With the above you said with 2 cable boxes, you have already surpassed the monthly tivo fee.
--
This Space for Rent... | |
|
| |  n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY
·Optimum Online
| said by r81984:Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo. Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows. Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways. My sister and brother-in-law's Sony SXRD television has a CableCard slot on the back. Unfortunately they live in Canada and Rogers does not and will not support CableCard as they are not subject to FCC regulations.
Once tru2way gets going with downloadable security, then I suspect rental boxes will start to be a thing of the past. I am sure the cable companies will still figure out a way to hit you for extra charges.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
|
| | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: This isn't surprising... said by n2jtx:said by r81984:Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo. Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows. Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways. My sister and brother-in-law's Sony SXRD television has a CableCard slot on the back. Unfortunately they live in Canada and Rogers does not and will not support CableCard as they are not subject to FCC regulations. Once tru2way gets going with downloadable security, then I suspect rental boxes will start to be a thing of the past. I am sure the cable companies will still figure out a way to hit you for extra charges. Tru2Way still uses cablecards for it's conditional access requirements. Downloadable Conditional Access is still a bit aways from widescale rollout.
And Rental boxes will still be around. Some people will still prefer to rent their box instead of buying something new to avoid the rental. But we will see more people owning their equiptment. | |
|
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | said by r81984:Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo. Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows. Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways. 1. A few years ago you could find a bunch of TV's with cablecard slots. They didn't sell too well so now you can only find higher-end tv's normally with the cablecard slot.
2. Cablecards are 2-way. The problem is the host devices sold to consumer are only 1way. The same cablecards you can get in your TV or TiVO are the ones used in the newer MSO cableboxes.
Tru2Way utilized cablecards, so their demand will likely increase once tru2way gets a wider audience. | |
|
| | | | said by r81984:Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo. Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows. Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways. ORLY?
Both my Mitsubishi TVs have Cablecard slots and one is in use (second is in storage.)
Sony has removed the slot from their TVs and Cablelabs is being quite stingy as to what devices can actually get certified to use the cards. HP and Dell have MediaPCs that can use Cablecards BUT you can't the the tuners separately to make your own Media Center PC.
Blame the cable companies on this one. | |
|
| | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: This isn't surprising... said by moonpuppy:Sony has removed the slot from their TVs and Cablelabs is being quite stingy as to what devices can actually get certified to use the cards. HP and Dell have MediaPCs that can use Cablecards BUT you can't the the tuners separately to make your own Media Center PC. Blame the cable companies on this one. Actually, the more likely culprit to blame would be the media companies.
Yes, Cablelabs is stingy on what devices can be certified, in that devices much actually meet the standard which they are requesting certification.
Those standards are NOT just put together by the cable Company's. While Cablelabs is officially touted as the organization responsible for the Specs, it was actually put together by a group consisting of representative of the cable industry (MSO's), the consumer electronic manufacturers (sony, panasonic, samsung, etc), and the content providers (MPAA/Hollywood/whatever-you-want-to-call-them). Each group has it's own requirements and goals in the process of coming up with the standard.
That standard includes certain copy-protection and DRM provisions. Because those requirements are within the standard, devices being certified have to ensure those copy-protection/DRM provisions are being met. That's why you can only get a cablecard on a Media Center PC built (and certified) by an OEM company. Both the OEM, and Microsoft, have taken responsibility that their hardware/software setup will handle the DRM properly. | |
|
| | | | | | Re: This isn't surprising... said by miscDude:said by moonpuppy:Sony has removed the slot from their TVs and Cablelabs is being quite stingy as to what devices can actually get certified to use the cards. HP and Dell have MediaPCs that can use Cablecards BUT you can't the the tuners separately to make your own Media Center PC. Blame the cable companies on this one. Actually, the more likely culprit to blame would be the media companies. Yes, Cablelabs is stingy on what devices can be certified, in that devices much actually meet the standard which they are requesting certification. Those standards are NOT just put together by the cable Company's. While Cablelabs is officially touted as the organization responsible for the Specs, it was actually put together by a group consisting of representative of the cable industry (MSO's), the consumer electronic manufacturers (sony, panasonic, samsung, etc), and the content providers (MPAA/Hollywood/whatever-you-want-to-call-them). Each group has it's own requirements and goals in the process of coming up with the standard. That standard includes certain copy-protection and DRM provisions. Because those requirements are within the standard, devices being certified have to ensure those copy-protection/DRM provisions are being met. That's why you can only get a cablecard on a Media Center PC built (and certified) by an OEM company. Both the OEM, and Microsoft, have taken responsibility that their hardware/software setup will handle the DRM properly. The cable companies fought the Cablecards tooth and nail for years so they deserve the lion's share of the blame. | |
|
| | | | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: This isn't surprising... said by moonpuppy:The cable companies fought the Cablecards tooth and nail for years so they deserve the lion's share of the blame. They aren't completely innocent... but I wouldn't say they should get all the blame for everything wrong with the current cablecard standard.
A lot of the complaints I've heard they had about the standard was that it was incomplete. They knew customer's would want access to the 2-way features which were at the time just around the corner. The Government and the consumer electronic companies said they needed to do something "NOW"... so the 1-way cablecard spec was released.
Unfortunately, it never really took off because by the time they were able to start bringing cablecard devices to the market, 2way services like OnDemand were becoming standard.
Tru2Way should fix a lot of the issues with the initial cablecard specs. Hopefully it won't fizzle and be on it's deathbed like 1-way cablecards appear to be. | |
|
| | | | NOT TRUE>.. The ATI WONDER DIGITAL CABLE TUNER uses cablecard, and there is no monthly fee for ATI... therefore one can setup a personal computer with Vista (new, cablecard ready PC) and use their own ATI tuners to record their DRM protected programs... a trade-off many may be willing to do. | |
|
 jjoshuaPremium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
kudos:1 | No incentive There is no incentive for the cable company to use cablecards. There is no extra revenue from VOD or interactive advertising. | |
|
 CableGeiPremium
join:2004-05-27
Brookville, OH
·Frontier Communi..
| CableCARDs suck. Installs go "horribly awry" because it's a technology that's hard to support from the stand point that the line has to be drawn somewhere on what is supported and what isn't supported. Once a CableCARD has been inserted and the Host ID of the customer's equipment is registered in the cable company's systems - that's about all that can be done. Not all equipment shows the same diagnostic information if any. If it doesn't work, it's not the cable company's responsibility to troubleshoot customer owned equipment. | |
|
| RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
1 edit | Re: CableCARDs suck. Considering that the cable industry developed this "hard to support" technology it is difficult to generate much sympathy for them as they (and, apparently, you) whine about what you are and are not willing to troubleshoot.
Bottom line, they didn't want it in the first place and are doing everything possible to make it fail. Installs go "horribly arwy" because there is no financial incentive for cablers to make sure they don't. | |
|
 Fubar
join:2001-02-20
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:2 | Not sure if I believe those numbers... So Tivo sold less than 6,000 HD boxes a month nationwide?
And why don't they put how many Cable cards they have installed instead of an ambiguous number like 18,000 PEOPLE called in.... | |
|
| | | Re: Not sure if I believe those numbers... That's about right on the TiVo numbers, could be even less as well. | |
|
 The BeerI Love It When A Plan Comes TogetherPremium
join:2001-07-24
Atlantic, IA | Could it be Well lets see....
Could it be the mandatory onsite install they they fail on?
The $40 per card install fee?
The $2/mo fee per card when you only need a single dual stream card?
Can't wait till they go 100% digital and we all get screwed with a shiny new box none of us want to have or pay for. | |
|
|
See 16 replies to this post |
|
|
|
See 9 replies to this post |
|
b10010011Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA Reviews:
·Comcast Formerl..
1 edit | It took less than FIVE minutes to install a CableCARD... In my Tivo-HD...
In fact Comcast said I had to install it my self or pay $45 for a service call.
I stopped by the office, picked up an "M" card. Popped it in the Tivo and instantly a screen came up that said "This screen provided by your cable company. Please dial 1-###-###-#### to activate service."
So I called the number, spoke to a guy that had me read some other numbers off the screen. Less than ten seconds later he said to try a few channels and make sure you are getting everything.
Bingo, good to go | |
|
| r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX | Re: It took less than FIVE minutes to install a CableCARD... It makes no sense that people have problems. | |
|
 60127178K.U. Sweet 16Premium
join:2001-02-15
Wichita, KS
kudos:1 | Besides the Tivo... Maybe I have not been looking in the right places, but are there any new tv's being sold that have the CC slot? My 37 inch Samsung and my brother in laws 52 inch do not have one. I do not see the retailers pushing it either. I remember the Samsung DLPs from 2004-2005 did have one though. | |
|
| Reviews:
·Comcast
·Comcast
| Re: Besides the Tivo... Thanks for asking - I too notice that in the first phases, only high end sets were equipped to use the card. The electronics industry never went further. A wider installed base would have helped push the technology further.
Zenith did the same thing in the 80s. Called RediPlug, it was a DIN connector that patched a Zenith cable box to a Zenith TV. Only installed on high end sets. Never took off.
--
To get back on your feet, miss two car payments. | |
|
| |
1 edit | Re: Besides the Tivo... Didn't hotel uses a system like that for lodgenet with Zenith / Philips tv's? | |
|
| | | Reviews:
·Comcast
·Comcast
| Re: Besides the Tivo... said by Joe12345678:Did hotel uses a system like that for lodgenet with Zenith / Philips tv's? Might have - it never lived up to it;s potential.
The whole "buy your own cable box" scheme always sounds good to the consumers . . . until they discover it's not a 'pirate box' that gets all the premium channels for free. Reference the DCP501, $900 for a Motorola box that does just what it should - deliver paid-for subscribed content securely. And does VOD.
--
To get back on your feet, miss two car payments. | |
|
| | | | jmr50
join:2000-05-14
New York, NY | Re: Besides the Tivo... The DCP501 (»www.amazon.com/Motorola-DCP501-A···0008ZPJN for $180, by the way) is a LOT more than a vanilla cable box. I bet a lot of consumers would be happy to pay $180 up-front to avoid a $10/month fee for a HD receiver -- that's an 18-month return period. People buy their own cable modems with a similar return on investment period. | |
|
| | | | | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: Besides the Tivo... said by jmr50:The DCP501 (» www.amazon.com/Motorola-DCP501-A···0008ZPJN for $180, by the way) is a LOT more than a vanilla cable box. I bet a lot of consumers would be happy to pay $180 up-front to avoid a $10/month fee for a HD receiver -- that's an 18-month return period. People buy their own cable modems with a similar return on investment period. It's about $180 NOW.... several years after it was intially released. At the time it was released, it was closer to the $900 mark.
Also, keep in mind that the cable box within the device is comparable to the DCT2000, probably the least capable cable box still in use on motorola cable plants today. (It is the DCT2000 series that exists in massive numbers, that is actually hold back the I-guide developments because of it's lack of memory and processing power to support newer guide features) | |
|
 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:5
·Frontier FiOS
| Thought about getting a cable card... I got a new HDTV for the bedroom this christmas and I need to get some type of a receiver as FiOS TV doesn't have much available via clear QAM. I'd really like to get some type of a DVR, so I have 3 choices:
Home Media DVR + HD STB. Total cost from what I have now is about $15 ($5 for the HM "upgrade" of my existing HD-DVR plus $10 for a HD STB) Downside is that only lets me playback recordings, not record live programming on the new STB.
A second HD-DVR - Costs $15/month
A HD Tivo with a cable card. It'll cost me $300 minimum for the HD Tivo, $4/month for a M card rental, and $8.31 for TiVO's service. (Yes, it could be cheaper with the lifetime subscription, but it's $400 upfront and it makes a harder comparison as how long is the "lifetime" really. So for a savings of $3/month, I can get service that is suppose to work but isn't necessarily guaranteed to do so. And it will only take 8+ years to break even over going with the FiOS HD-DVR.
I would have no problem going with a cable card solution if there was one that was affordable both in upfront cost as well as monthly fees. But if I am going to pay essentially the same price as the official STB, why should I pay for the cable cards? TiVO's interface is no doubt better then Verizon's but it's not going to be THAT much better to justify the initial upfront expense. | |
|
2 edits | CableCARDs are great Maybe that's why the cable company hates them. The rental fees are less than their outrageous fees for HD or DVR box rentals, and where you can purchase them outright you pay $0 extra fees for equipment.
I am thankful for them. I can't imagine that I'd be paying $10.00 per month for a HD box or $13.00 for a HD DVR box. Why so much money???
Instead, I purchased two cablecards for my TiVo Series3 at $125 each. Sure, that's a bit steep but it's a one time fee and NO MORE FEES for the lifetime of the cards. I have lifetime service on my TiVo.
TiVo certainly beats the cableco's DVR hands down, plus it looks a lot better than the cableco's DVRs in my home theater rack.
More importantly than that it gives consumers choice.
The install for mine went rather smooth. It was for a brand new install (for us anyway) since we bought a new home. The techs came (contractors actually), installed the cards, I showed them the diag screen on TiVo, they tested the channels and were on their way. Completely painless.
Cable company is Service Electric Cable of Sparta NJ. | |
|
 C0deZer0Oc'D To Rhythm And PolicePremium
join:2001-10-03
Davenport, FL | Given the circumstances... I'm surprised they aren't doing worse, really. 
Lack of two-way communication is a problem, especially for those who would want to take advantage of premium VoD services which many of these cable companies are offering with their STB units. Which, none too ironically, the type of people that would be in the market for a CableCARD are on both ends of the spectrum - the market that would typically want the full spectrum of high-end coverage, and those who are trying to save some $ and get their TV feeds without having to pay the (relatively) ridiculous STB rental fees.
Also, when's the last time you'd seen a TV that offered an integrated CableCARD slot? Even now many top-end TV's you'll see available at many brick & mortar and online places do not have any facility for a CableCARD system. I know I've not seen any devices that offer that support.
Also, regarding the install operations for supporting these cards... why must it be made so complex? I would think that a revision (either firmware upgrade or new hardware) should be able to make these things just as robust as most - if not all - STB's currently available.
It's a shame, because the CableCARD principle was a really good one - a single device that provides the necessary decode for your TV purposes without requiring another box and another outlet to handle the job. Saves power, saves space, saves time. But this hilariously bad execution makes getting into it now - or for the technology to be taken seriously - really difficult.
--
Front Line Force Fortress Forever | |
|
| |
|
| miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: Switch to Digital said by aszure3:So what will happen to everyone when the broadcast is 100% digital will cable cards still work or will there be a replacement. I have been wanting to get one but I am not sure if it will still work when it is all digital. I would hate to waste money on somthing that will be a brick eventually. All the cablecard does is handle the decryption of a digital signal. It is the answer to the seperable security mandate by the FCC.
So... to answer your concern, it will still work once a system goes all-digital. Those current analog channels will basically just be converted to [encrypted] QAM channels like your existing digital lineup. | |
|
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| not in use.. There are many reasons... look here under "ISSUES"
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_card
The cable industry fought mighty hard to keep it's set top rental monopoly. Just about every digital tv set should have a cable card slot & circuitry without significant real higher costs (maybe + 4-8%).
One day they will either get this right.. or the internet will pass the cable industry by and TV's will just end up with gigabit ethernet and/or 802.11n connectivity. Set tops will be obsolete, and the cable industry has no control over the evolution of HDTVs incorporating on-the-fly decoding codecs & pvr devices for displaying content. Think of it as your HDTV / Home Media player (with a hard drive, flash memory, and possibly a flash slot) in that one thin box.. in addition to your coax, svideo, dvi, rgb (3rca video jacks), etc. | |
|
| | No verizon data I have Verizon FiOS which use QAM cable to deliver TV both my girlfriend and I have Tivo HD's which use two cable cards a piece. No verizon data means a smaller number reported. Don't be scared, order cable cards. Ours work perfect and after install haven't failed. | |
|
| | | Re: No verizon data You really think that Verizon's numbers, with a smaller customer base than Comcast, TWCable, Charter, Cox, etc would really make a difference here? | |
|
| | Provbe to me cable operators make a profit Prove to me that cable operators make a profit on their setop boxes. AT like $6 a month thats only like $72 a year. IF u replace that box say every 2 years i highly doubt cable operators make a profit. They are probably losing money.
The problem is that cablecards dont work with ALL channels | |
|
| | | Re: Provbe to me cable operators make a profit Actually I think set-top boxes are probably the biggest profit-margin for cable companies on the video side of things. Supposedly the cable company makes very little on the content side of things, so let's say service is priced at $45/month. According to the cable cos most of that $45 is to pay content providers (e.g. ESPN, FOX, etc). Where they make their money is on the set-top boxes. (Excluding Broadband and VOIP) | |
|
| | miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: Provbe to me cable operators make a profit said by waiting4fios:Actually I think set-top boxes are probably the biggest profit-margin for cable companies on the video side of things. Supposedly the cable company makes very little on the content side of things, so let's say service is priced at $45/month. According to the cable cos most of that $45 is to pay content providers (e.g. ESPN, FOX, etc). Where they make their money is on the set-top boxes. (Excluding Broadband and VOIP) Actually, I don't believe set-top boxes are the biggest profit margin on the video side. I do however believe that it is the gateway to the biggest profit margin/generator on the video side.
Without a set-top box, you cannot access impulse Pay-per View or Video on-demand. At (on average) $10 a pop for 2hr porn movie, or $3-5 for a regular movie, those items generate far more revenue and profit for the MSO than the regular video services or the settop boxes. It's in part because they want customers to have access to those profit generators, that I wouldn't be surprised if they actually operate the box rentals at a bit of a loss.
(The same theory as video game consoles which often are a loss when first introduces on the idea that the larger profit/money will come later with game sales)
| |
|
| | | Absolutely! I've said it a ton of times...cable companies hate settops! They take years to recover the cost, but are a necessary evil for all those two way services.
Cablecards DO work with all channels...it's what they are plugged into that don't always. | |
|
| |  Verizon CC
| |
|
| | It's not the cablecards... Cablecards are not the problem. I believe all of the cable companies are using them in their own set top boxes since they are now legally required to do so. The intent of the law was to level the playing field so that both the cable companies and third parties had to use this same technology and customers would have a choice.
The cable companies complied but did so in a way which purposely did not level the playing field. They paired the cable cards with their set top boxes at the warehouse so that their support staff needed no training on cable card technology. This also required little change in their software systems since a set top box was still just that.
This also had the intended consequence of making it hell for the consumer to successfully use anything but the cable company's own equipment. Most cable companies charged for a truck roll even though their own techs had little if any training on how to get these cable cards to work in consumer devices like Tivo. Even if the tech did everything right, the back end software was not set up to handle cable cards the same way that it was for their set top boxes so mistakes were often made so that the device still did not work properly. This frustrated techs so they blamed the cards.
Some of the cards were probably broken due to improperly completed firmware upgrades or poor handling but rather than being declared bad -- they would be tried at the next appointment. Cards are apparently expensive and are a limited supply item. The cable company would rather not carry them at all since it was competing with their own boxes. This would often mean delays in the initial appointment or in followup appointments until a working card could be found.
Since the billing systems were not designed with cable cards in mind -- consumers were often overcharged. Multi-access (M-cards) cards were charged as 2 S-cards since the billing system required that setup to successfully make the device work. If a customer complained and had the bogus charge removed -- the working card would stop working. Nationally advertised prices for the cards were often lower than what local customers were getting charged. The cable companies simply made it more expensive and a huge hassle to use 3rd party devices that required cable cards rather than their own set top boxes.
If the cable companies had required the same procedures of cable card installation in their own devices -- rather than warehouse pre-installs -- cablecards would be much more common and the cable company set-top boxes would be a thing of the past. | |
|
| miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Re: It's not the cablecards... I won't go into all the details on things I disagree with in your post. It's honestly not worth the trouble, and I don't want to piss people off by sounding like a one-horse pony.
The warehouses don't even do anything special to pair the cablecards with the device. As far as the staging process goes, a seperable security box and a "legacy" box tend to get staged almost identically. (There might be an extra reboot or two because of the box downloading cablecard code.).
With the 2-way host devices built by SA/Cisco and Motorola, the boxes are able to automatically send their pairing information back to the controller. Depending on how the billing system is designed, the DNCS/DAC can then either update the billing system with the information on the box, or it can just play dumb since technically the billing system wouldn't need the extra information.
Unfortunately, the existing cablecard spec is just a one-way spec. This was known to be an issue when the specifications were first released, but there were a lot of disagreements between all the parties involved in getting the 2way spec agreed upon. The pressure from the FCC to get cablecards to the public, combined with the CE industry impatience to launch their products, resulting in the "incomplete" product being released to the public while they continued to work on the 2-way spec. Since the Controllers need to know the pairing information for the card, and since it can't get it directly from the box, (and of course, because you don't want to give everybody access direct access to the server that controls everything about the entire cable plant), the billing system has to get the pairing information added and sent back to the controller.
Interestingly enough, That 2-way spec mutated into 2 very different ideas on how to handle the 2-way communication. there is the iDCR specs favored by the consumer electronic companies, and the Tru2Way/OCAP spec favored by the MSO's and Moto/SA. | |
|
|
|
Why does it require a truck roll to install a cableCARD?
