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Cablevision Network DVR This Summer?
Company hints at compromises

Cable operators have long dreamed of remote storage DVRs (RS-DVRs) that store video content at the network head end, eliminating the need for a consumer-side set top box entirely. Cablevision conducted a 1,000 person trial of a network DVR service in 2006 that worked essentially the same way as a traditional DVR -- except that 80 hours of video content were stored on Cablevision servers.

But then Cablevision was sued by the entertainment industry, who claimed the system violated broadcast and copyright laws -- but was largely just fearful of a loss of ad revenue and control. In 2007, a Federal judge ruled against Cablevision, preventing Cablevision from broader deployment. Cablevision won subsequent rounds, though the case is now potentially heading all the way to the Supreme Court.

Click for full size
Light Reading quotes Cablevision COO Tom Rutledge, who hints that an agreement may be in the works with copyright holders, and that users may see the service as soon as this summer:
quote:
"We'll be rolling out our first product based on [the RS-DVR] later this summer. We'll move to centralized storage. I think ultimately we'll end up in some commercial arrangement with programmers. We're having discussions with the copyright holders that can make the network DVR model work in their best interests."
Such language usually means compromises that make the product less interesting to users, including the possibility of unskippable advertisements. Cablevision has previously stated their implementation of the service would provide customers with about 160GB of network-side storage to start, and, given the functionality will be the same as their existing DVR, a price tag somewhere around $9.95 a month.
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baineschile
2600 ways to live
Premium Member
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI

baineschile

Premium Member

Why doesnt CC and TWC do this

I could add more here, but I think the subject says it all...

Just add terabytes of storage at the local nodes, update some software, and everything is stored offsite. Its a cinch....

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez

Member

Still a need for a set top box....

Unless CV plans on negotiating with every TV manufacturer to make special remotes just for them, the end user will still need some sort of a set top box. The set top box will have its own remote that includes dedicated buttons for the DVR features. As such, I really dont see any benefit to this at all. In fact, I would prefer to have the content locally in case the cable feed gets messed up due to rain or some other thing.
Dodge
Premium Member
join:2002-11-27

Dodge

Premium Member

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

said by wifi4milez:

... In fact, I would prefer to have the content locally in case the cable feed gets messed up due to rain or some other thing.
If the cable feed goes out your DVR will not work either way, unless they changed it from about a year ago. Try pulling the incoming feed out of your current dvr and play something
Araiden
join:2008-04-12

Araiden

Member

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

Well the stuff that you already have recorded will still work. That stuff is being loaded off of the hard drive on the box and doesn't require your service to be connected to play that. However if you disconnect the incoming feed you will not be able to watch anything else ;P.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez to Dodge

Member

to Dodge
said by Dodge:
said by wifi4milez:

... In fact, I would prefer to have the content locally in case the cable feed gets messed up due to rain or some other thing.
If the cable feed goes out your DVR will not work either way, unless they changed it from about a year ago. Try pulling the incoming feed out of your current dvr and play something
Of course it still works, unless you pull out the power plug! The content you have recorded is stored on a local hard drive, so you can access it any time the machine is booted up. I havent yet tried it with my FIOS, however it certainly worked with TWC.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

said by wifi4milez:

said by Dodge:
said by wifi4milez:

... In fact, I would prefer to have the content locally in case the cable feed gets messed up due to rain or some other thing.
If the cable feed goes out your DVR will not work either way, unless they changed it from about a year ago. Try pulling the incoming feed out of your current dvr and play something
Of course it still works, unless you pull out the power plug! The content you have recorded is stored on a local hard drive, so you can access it any time the machine is booted up. I havent yet tried it with my FIOS, however it certainly worked with TWC.
The DVR STB could still play existing already recorded shows if cable goes out. But only as long as the STB wasn't powered down and restarted while the cable is down. Because if you power on a DVR STB after a power outage and the cable connection is still down, it won't come up far enough to play back existing recordings.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium Member
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1

Anonymous_

Premium Member

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

that might depend on the brand and or software used

as with the motorola boxes i was able to take my DVR to other places and use it with out cable pulged in

ATT TECH
@vzavenue.net

ATT TECH to FFH5

Anon

to FFH5
i install U-Verse for AT&T ... i know for a fact that on our DVR's .. without a signal coming to the DVR you cannot funtion anything on the box ... you wont even be able to get to a menu screen... it will just sit on a blue AT&T screen and then eventually give you an "X" in the middle of your screen.

now i have seen DVR's i believe from DISH NETWORK? where as long as your DVR is plugged to power and to your t.v. then you can watch your recordings from it.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

The DVR STB could still play existing already recorded shows if cable goes out. But only as long as the STB wasn't powered down and restarted while the cable is down. Because if you power on a DVR STB after a power outage and the cable connection is still down, it won't come up far enough to play back existing recordings.
direct tv boxes can playback dvr feeds with no sat feed and that is after a reboot as well.

will this have the same as VOD control lag?
chasmn84
join:2009-05-07
Glen Ellyn, IL

chasmn84 to wifi4milez

Member

to wifi4milez
Most of the time the menu to get to your dvr from tv operators is downloaded from the node so if you have no signal you cannot access the DVR. NO SERVICE, NO MENU...
cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

cornelius785 to Dodge

Member

to Dodge
well, not necessarily. i assume this is true for cableco DVR things, but probably not true for TIVO and windows media center, and definitely not true for mythtv and similar.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to wifi4milez

Member

to wifi4milez
With OCAP/tru2way I don't believe they'll need a separate box. All that will be needed is for the TV to download the cable operator's software from the headend.

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez

Member

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

said by fifty nine:

With OCAP/tru2way I don't believe they'll need a separate box. All that will be needed is for the TV to download the cable operator's software from the headend.
While that might be possible from a software standpoint, standard TV remotes do not have VOD, pause, FF, etc. buttons. This would mean you would need to get a new custom remote, or a CV universal remote.

Frankly however, I dont really have any issue with an STB. I am not sure why some people dont want them, especially if that means all your content is now stored on the CV network. Local content just works, I can see it, touch it, and I know its there if the feed goes down.

NSA_CIA
@charter.com

NSA_CIA

Anon

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

said by wifi4milez:

While that might be possible from a software standpoint, standard TV remotes do not have VOD, pause, FF, etc. buttons. This would mean you would need to get a new custom remote, or a CV universal remote.
tru2way has included remote specs so functionality is available to control the extras included with tru2way software.

But usually cable VOD apps used arrow keys in place of dedicated play/pause/stop keys to control the video stream, I'm sure the netDVR can be made to work the same way.

Caddyroger
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
To the west

Caddyroger to fifty nine

Premium Member

to fifty nine
the tv will have to be OCAP/tru2way capable and that will take 10 to 20 years to get done. I just bought a 72 dlp tv 2 years ago and not about to pay just to get a OCAP/tru2way tv. So they will need a set top box or other means of controlling the dvr.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678 to fifty nine

Member

to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

With OCAP/tru2way I don't believe they'll need a separate box. All that will be needed is for the TV to download the cable operator's software from the headend.
but they may still be a cable card that is needed.
ashworth7
join:2001-10-06
Pittsburgh, PA

ashworth7 to wifi4milez

Member

to wifi4milez
Why would you pay for the content twice, once you pay your monthly bill and twice to access it. Cablevision has a great argument, it already provides the content, just storing it somewhere other than on your home DVR ??? Just more industry BS. Where am I wrong here ??

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

wifi4milez

Member

Re: Still a need for a set top box....

said by ashworth7:

Why would you pay for the content twice, once you pay your monthly bill and twice to access it.
I am not sure how you figure that someone pays twice for the content now. Part of your monthly bill is the charge for the DVR, its not something you pay for each time you view recorded content, thats VOD and I think you are confusing the two.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

That Image...

Ugh... the utterly worthless Scientific Atlanta Explorer HD Box... may no one, not even those with whom I viscerally disagree on these forums, be cursed with that piece of junk.

To call it junk would be an insult to junk, because junk to some people is actually useful.

i1me2ao
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
TEXAS

i1me2ao

Premium Member

what

about all the bandwidth that is in such short supply. will this clog the tubes??

DaveDude
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey

1 recommendation

DaveDude

Member

Re: what

There only clogged when the consumer wants to download something. If the cableco wants to sell something, there is no problem.
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO
·Google Fiber

me1212

Member

Re: what

said by DaveDude:

There only clogged when the consumer wants to download something. If the cableco wants to sell something, there is no problem.
Sad ain't it?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to i1me2ao

Premium Member

to i1me2ao
said by i1me2ao:

about all the bandwidth that is in such short supply. will this clog the tubes??
That is a good point.

To playback a network stored show, the system would be using the same frequencies set aside for OnDemand(or whatever TWC calls their version of the Comcast OnDemand) use. And those frequencies are somewhat limited and you can often get an error at busy times if a lot of people on a node are using OnDemand at the same time.

I know I use my DVR way more than I use OnDemand. And if others are similar in their use, this R-DVR service could be a HUGE problem for many people not being able to use it when they want.

DaveDude
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey

DaveDude

Member

Re: what

Unless its ip based , which would be logical. I prefer the download the entire program type of deal anyway. When you use on-demand , the pause of replay is like 3-5 second off.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: what

said by DaveDude:

Unless its ip based , which would be logical. I prefer the download the entire program type of deal anyway. When you use on-demand , the pause of replay is like 3-5 second off.
Their original tests of this used the VOD method of delivery. »www.cable360.net/ct/depl ··· 582.html If this new rollout this summer actually happens, using that same method of delivery would be a big problem.

If it really has to work every time that you want to use it, then I hope their new rollout would go to an IPTV based system of delivery.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: what

said by FFH5:

If it really has to work every time that you want to use it, then I hope their new rollout would go to an IPTV based system of delivery.
Why would IPTV be any more efficient or not over MPEG transport stream?

SpaethCo
Digital Plumber
MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

SpaethCo to DaveDude

MVM

to DaveDude
said by DaveDude:

Unless its ip based , which would be logical. I prefer the download the entire program type of deal anyway. When you use on-demand , the pause of replay is like 3-5 second off.
All an IP solution will do is add additional IP header and DOCSIS data channel overhead, which would work to reduce the number of concurrent streams that could be carried in the same frequency space as the existing VoD options.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678 to DaveDude

Member

to DaveDude
said by DaveDude:

Unless its ip based , which would be logical. I prefer the download the entire program type of deal anyway. When you use on-demand , the pause of replay is like 3-5 second off.
direct tv has download and push VOD. I think is better then cable VOD why can't cable do that maybe it is the small HD in boxes 120-160gb come on Direct and dish have 320-500gb+ now + e-sata and mpeg 4 vs mpeg 2 on cable.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx to i1me2ao

Member

to i1me2ao
That's only TWC's tubes. CV has big tubes for their customers. Expensive ones, but big ones nonetheless
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO
·Google Fiber

me1212

Member

Re: what

said by iansltx:

That's only TWC's tubes. CV has big tubes for their customers. Expensive ones, but big ones nonetheless
Ya got a point this IS cv we are talking bout not tw/cc.

DaveDude
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey

DaveDude

Member

$10 is a bit high

I dont see why someone would want this. I sometimes store shows for months before watching, and at that price, i could buy a tivo. $120 a year, i think some tivos are going for less then $200.

••••••••••

EricGT
@optonline.net

EricGT

Anon

Unskippable Advertisements??

Are they kidding with this?

If the remote-DVR service includes "unskippable advertisements", I will have no use for such a service. I use the FF button my remote way too often to give it up now.

I'll stick with the current DVR devices available, thanks anyway.

•••

Tomek
Premium Member
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY

Tomek

Premium Member

Potential?

So there are some good sides for it. 160GB of SHARED storage would allow Cable Co to store complete program episodes and share them if same users "recorded" them. It would be nice if user could view "saved" content on remote location (ie work). That would be nice solution. But just outsourcing DVR to Cable Co nodes doesn't make sense to me.
I rather build a DVR rig with unlimited storage and internet broadcast support

••••••••

HarleyYac
Lee
Premium Member
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ

HarleyYac

Premium Member

People...... It has to finish out the legal hurdles first!!!

,,,,, Still a decent idea........

yazx22
@mediacomcc.com

yazx22

Anon

IP Base

Make it IP based so you can access it off your computer/I-Phone ect.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

could be a good alternative


This could be a good idea, but any disabling of function (forced commercials) would be a deal breaker. If they can work within the existing limitations that's ok. Plus, if they record everything--have a huge library of content for 3 months, say, then that would be the future of DVR. True on-demand.

I believe its been mentioned before, but any significant lag or delay in fast forwarding is also a deal breaker.

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

1 recommendation

RARPSL

Member

What Shows will be recorded? How long will they be stored?

The subject asks the big questions that would make this option compatible with a home based STB DVR. Unless the Remote DVR will record ANY program I want it to (as opposed to them just automatically recording shows off of a list) this would not be a full substitute for a DVR Box. There is also the issue of how long it will be kept and, if the Automatic Recording option is used with the single copy being shared, will that copy count against my 160GB?

The best option would be to have automatic shared recording of popular shows (ie: Those that get more than x requests for example) without them counting against the 160GB usage since once you have more than a few copies it takes less space to share a copy (such as if you have 1000 requests). If there is a view-by cut off date for the shared copy, then migrate it to the user's dedicated space at that point in time if they have not deleted it (the shared copy is accessed by a list of who requested it and their name is removed when they delete their "copy").

This way there is a shared pool of shows and a dedicated space for shows that are not in the shared pool and those that were moved to the dedicated space when the shared copy expires thus keeping the total required space way under 160GB times the number of users.

cypherstream
MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
·PenTeleData
ARRIS SB8200

1 edit

cypherstream

MVM

Neat idea... I see some limitations, but also oppurtunity...

First off, this is not going to eliminate hardware DVR's (at least at first).

For one thing, they could sell this reduced DVR service at a lower rate, and not require an HD or DVR set top. Your FF/Rew speeds will not be as robust. Forget about 30-sec skip, 5 min jumps or "skip to tick" functionality. Remember your remote commands will take 3-5 sec to register. They have to travel upstream to the server and be processed.

What is beneficial is whole home DVR access. All of the STB's listed on your account should be able to have access to your disk space quota at the local headend. The headend can increase quota's as disk space becomes cheaper and their systems are upgraded. That's not something that could be done "on a whim" with a home DVR. Also if they get this to work with Tru2Way, new TV's like the Panasonic Tru2Way plasma could theoretically have MR-DVR ability because the disk space is centralized, rather than being attached to the TV. Think about it... you could one day have full interactive TV service with DVR, but NO BOX.... not even one to house a hard drive.

Still, if you want the responsiveness and control, they could market a higher DVR tier (with features like 30-sec skip, multiple speed FF/Rew, with a better UI and perhaps PC/DLNA connectivity (hopefully).

I do see VOD channels being used up quickly with this type of service. Bandwidth is at a premium right now, so I'm not sure if this is something that would want to be mass promoted until it's impact could be realized.

br1252b
@optonline.net

br1252b

Anon

Show me da money!

This whole thing is about money and how the copyright holders and advertisers want a piece of the action that cablevision will charge it's customers for the service.

The copyright holders aren't losing out, the content is just delayed viewing (you don't get to keep a copy and you can't share it with anyone).

All cablevision has to do is make it so you can start, pause, rewind, stop playback and restart from last stop (no fast forward). Then the advertisers would be satisfied.

When people use VCRs, DVDR, DVR and computers to record shows the copyright holders and advertisers lose out because they didn't think to control these devices. They want to choke any new technology and put a strangle hold on it so that they can milk it for every penny it's worth.

GREED and the LUST for money never ends!
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

fodder for sarcasm

what? no $300 early adopter activation fee?!
that's just wrong! clearly this is such a good product and it must cost them tons in the back office provisioning for them to ____ the customer over?

Jmartz0
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ

Jmartz0

Member

I hope the copyright owners sue and win

This is a big waste of Cablevision time and money. They need to spend their time developing new software for their set top boxes. Their software is horrible and extremely slow and unresponsive at times. Not to mention the large amount of bandwidth they need to set aside to allow people to watch all their recordings. I would prefer that bandwidth be used for more channels and less compression on the HD channels!
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678

Member

how much bandwith will this tie up??

how much bandwidth will this tie up??

they have to compete with dish / direct tv and other cable co?

what will people want this or more HD?

and this will have to be in HD or it will end not working out that good.

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL

Member

Re: how much bandwith will this tie up??

said by Joe12345678:

how much bandwidth will this tie up??

That is a major question. This is the equivalent of VoD in terms of Bandwidth since each user who is viewing a program is using their own dedicated chunk of Bandwidth just like a VoD user does. Unless there is enough available bandwidth to go around you will run into a over-sold condition.

Mari
@comcast.net

Mari

Anon

Each recording request creates a new stored copy of a show

RS-DVR means that every time a user requests a recording, a new copy of the program file is created and stored individually for that subscriber. It's a great legal solution, but a difficult technical one. See: »www.zatznotfunny.com/200 ··· age-dvr/

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL

Member

Re: Each recording request creates a new stored copy of a show

said by Mari :

RS-DVR means that every time a user requests a recording, a new copy of the program file is created and stored individually for that subscriber. It's a great legal solution, but a difficult technical one. See: »www.zatznotfunny.com/200 ··· age-dvr/
It is a dumb solution and should not be required even if supposedly legal. It was only offered to allow the Ludite types from the media providers something to make the process less feasable to implement. If the Cable Company is given the right to record and store the video, there is no reason why more than one copy is needed (it is the same as a VoD feed). Everyone who wants it "recorded" should be feed from that single copy (which is erased after all the users have viewed it and have marked it "deleted").