 Techie714
join:2005-08-02
Anaheim, CA | Good News! Well more competition is always a good thing. | |
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4BPL
@optonline.net
| San Diego Gas & Electric is conducting the only BPL trial in CA read: San Diego Gas & Electric is conducting the only Broadband over Power Line (BPL) trial in the state of CALIFORNIA.!!!
``The commission's actions create a very favorable climate for the development of BPL in California,'' said SDG&E spokesman Eddie Van Herik
read the whole story:
»www.siliconvalley.com/mld/silico···1976.htm | |
| | | | | WangFubar
join:2003-10-02
Paradise, CA |  Boo
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Maarvin
Premium
join:2005-04-11
Denver, CO
 ·Comcast
| Re: Boo Didn't this form of technology draw the ire of ham radio operators due to the interference it caused those who lived near the power lines? And wasn't BPL experiments canceled in some areas due to same?
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Make a difference - Join Team Helix! | |
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Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Camarillo, CA
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Re: Boo said by Maarvin  :Didn't this form of technology draw the ire of ham radio operators due to the interference it caused those who lived near the power lines? And wasn't BPL experiments canceled in some areas due to same? "Meanwhile, the ARRL reports on potential interference provisions being written into federal broadband laws."
This answers your first question. As to your second question, I recall reading something also about BPL being cancelled due to interference concerns.
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Correcting one "looser" at a time. | |
| | | | Slacker44
join:2001-05-10
Gilbert, AZ | Re: Boo Oh nos what if there is an earthquake. The HAMS won't be able to save us!
Bah.. I hope one of these BPL deals gets it right just to annoy the heck out of you all. | |
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Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Camarillo, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Boo said by Slacker44 :I hope one of these BPL deals gets it right just to annoy the heck out of you all. You sort of imply that I'm a ham user, which I am not, but regardless, they seem to be making a legitimate claim and have been fighting it as such.
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Correcting one "looser" at a time. | |
| | | | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
 ·XMission
| said by Slacker44 :Oh nos what if there is an earthquake. The HAMS won't be able to save us! Bah.. I hope one of these BPL deals gets it right just to annoy the heck out of you all. No kid, the Hams never 'save' you, *YOU* are responsible for that (I know, that is a astounding concept, helping yourself). What Hams do is help make it possible for the limited resources to know what areas need them the most and to coordinate aid so that several hundred Red Cross vehicles do not show up in one area and none elsewhere.
But it does not matter, everyone knows that the next big one in California will be splitting it off into the ocean. 
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| | | | | W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| What would possibly make you feel that way? I don't think that I would have that be my comment on a discussion board unless I, too, were hiding behind a screen name.
But if you really need to discuss it, here is a description of the work of the group you are trying to annoy:
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/emcomm.html
I would think that things like the donation of hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours that really DO make a difference when needed; the donated use of equipment when needed; working with school groups to use Amateur Radio as a tool to teach science, mathematics and social sciences and the volunteer creation of scholarship programs to help send deserving and needy folks through college merits more than your hope that they will be annoyed by the interference problems associated with BPL.
Go to ARRL's web page and look at story after story about the work done by licensed Amateurs when they are needed. Why would you want to "annoy" them to thank them for what they have done?
If BPL "gets it right," they will implement and install a design that prevents interference. Some BPL manufacturers are working on doing just that, at least for Amateur Radio. Motorola, Current Technologies and IBEC have the foresight to understand that they need to do more than the FCC rules require to address interference. Other companies are working with ARRL to help resolve interference issues. Others are not, and it should be no surprise that the largest deployment in the country is one of those that have addressed compatibility issues and that has maintained honest and productive dialogue with ARRL.
Those companies that cannot address interference are "solving" EMC problems with press releases or other denials, or otherwise trying to solve their problems with silence, not science.
There has been a lot of press about BPL, most of it written as this article was, from the BPL-industry press releases. Go to »www.arrl.org/bpl and look at the News-other articles links to see more balanced reporting.
To really understand the BPL interference issues, look at the videos and listen to the audio files on the ARRL BPL page.
There are also links to all sorts of other information about BPL there.
Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org
ARRL
225 Main St
Newington, CT 061111
Tel: 860-594-0318
(Note to moderator: My contact info is on all sorts of web pages, so no need to protect me from the spambots) | |
| | | | | | W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| Re: Boo My personal Top 10 favorite media articles:
Utilities Speak Out
»www.fortnightly.com/view_news.cfm?id=60
4/5/2006, Fortnightly.com -- "Initial rollouts of BPL have slowed, if not stalled, but utilities continue to explore the possibilities for providing new services to customers. Now NARUC, in its Report of the Broadband Over Power Lines Task Force, and an accompanying survey conducted by EPRI Solutions, explores several utilities' responses to BPL, as well as the attraction to, and hindrances toward, implementing the technology. . . The use of BPL for internal utility applications to bolster the grid has delivered mixed results, at best, in terms of cost and benefits. According to an EPRI report still being finalized, BPL's 'smart grid' applications rank near the bottom of the list of eight other competing technologies. Based on 11 separate criteria, 'BPL ranked eighth out of the nine [wide-area network] technologies considered,' pulling 'particularly low marks on standardization and use of object modeling.' . . . Fundamental questions about the technology itself linger for larger utilities. First Energy 'commented that it is still not clear that BPL technologies live up to their hype,' while Con Edison cited 'credibility issues' with BPL. Even Cinergy acknowledged a 'significant problem' in integrating BPL with electricity meters. Nevertheless, the company 'believes that by installing BPL for current utility applications (even if another technology could perform equally well) utilities gain the advantage of extra bandwidth that will be useful in the future for more advanced utility applications (such as Intelligrid or Smart Grid applications).'"
Net over power lines irks amateur radio lovers
»www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2006-···m?csp=34
3/19/2006, USA Today (AP) -- "George Tarnovsky can hear the Internet as he drives down Main Street in Manassas, Va., a rapid rattle emanating from the ham radio in his Chevy Tahoe. 'Suddenly you hear this incredible signal,' Tarnovsky said. The radio interference, which can resemble rapid clicks or the whine of a phone-line modem, comes from a system that provides high-speed Internet access to about 1,000 Manassas customers through their power lines. 'The interference makes ham radio all but impossible in the Washington, D.C., suburb, Tarnovsky said."
IdaCorp subsidiary pulls out of BPL business
»www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs···9/NEWS02
1/27/2006, Idaho Statesman -- "IdaComm, a telecommunications subsidiary of Boise-based IdaCorp Inc., is getting out of the broadband over power line business, the company said. . .The company has abandoned BPL after seeing that electric utilities were not immediately embracing the technology, Jan B. Packwood, IdaCorp's chief executive officer, said in a statement. 'It's a smart decision if indeed the BPL business cannot become profitable in any reasonable amount of time," said James Bellessa, an analyst with D.A. Davidson & Co.'"
Problems at Home - Exchange magazine
»www.xchangemag.com/webexclusives···417.html
01-01-2006, xchange magazine -- While addressing how to get broadband around inside the home, with BPL only part of the equation, the author is not kind to BPL. "Problems With Power: Every TV or IP-enabled multimedia device requires power. So it makes sense that running IP over power would be both convenient and cost effective. It is, but there's a catch. The powerline infrastructure within homes was designed to deliver power, not digital multimedia content. While many new products are boasting theoretical bandwidth speeds of up to 200mbps, tests have shown much lower usable bandwidth rates. This occurs particularly when signals are attenuated by circuit breakers or when there is heavy power consumption by other devices. In short, pushing data through the power infrastructure introduces a unique set of challenges that powerline as a technology has not presently solved. They include ..."
BPL: Not Even a Niche: Limited rural solution, not great broadband hope - DSL reports
»BPL: Not Even a Niche
11/23/2005, DSL Reports -- "'I wouldn't even call [broadband over power lines] a niche,' says a Redback Networks marketing exec to Networking Pipeline. 'For most, it would be the second or third choice behind cable and DSL.' Seems like recent BPL articles (also see TechNewsWorld) have shaken off the un-bridled optimism, and are now pigeon-holing the technology as a limited rural broadband solution. If utilities can make the numbers work and control interference (What we've been saying for several years). That's a far cry from ex-FCC chief Powell's tag of "great broadband hope."
Riding the sine wave: Broadband data hitches a ride with an unlikely carrier - Electronic Design News
»www.edn.com/article/CA6280032.ht···yid=2282
11/10/2005, Electronic Design News -- This article may be the definitive BPL article that best describes the systems and their present status. "Proponents of BPL (broadband-over-power-line) technology insist that the best wires for the last mile were strung and connected long ago. But BPL still faces technical hurdles, a potentially nasty standards fight, and angry amateur-radio operators. . . With BPL rolling out, however, ham operators around the world are the leading voices of dissent, because some BPL installations interfere with ham operations. There is no question that BPL systems emit energy that acts as interference to radio communications. The overhead power lines are unshielded and cover a lot of geography--especially when a utility runs data along MV lines. Some in the BPL industry have characterized the ham operators as lunatics with nothing better to do than complain. Some of these "lunatics" claim that the BPL industry will interfere with emergency communications, leading to catastrophe. Others argue that the technology ultimately lacks the capacity to serve the stated goals of voice, data, and video. Fortunately, there are some reasonable people on both sides of the issue. The National Association for Amateur Radio represents the ham operators. The group still uses the acronym ARRL (American Radio Relay League) from its legacy group. ARRL Laboratory Manager Ed Hare has been involved with testing BPL systems and has worked with the HPA group and companies such as Motorola to try to make BPL work. Hare states, 'My goal is to help BPL succeed. Not all BPL systems will cause interference.'"
Web extra: Broadband over power lines not suited for rural areas
»www.fcw.com/article91102-10-17-05-Web
10/17-2005, FCW.com -- "Alan Shark, executive director of Public Technology, a technology organization that works with several cities and counties, said he is a fan of ham radio operators. But their complaints that BPL technology causes significant interference are misguided, he said. ... said the FCC offers a prescriptive mandate that states that BPL technology should not harmfully interfere with ham radios. 'It's not a question of whether BPL interferes with ham radios. It does,' he said. 'But then again so does your garage door opener, so does your diesel engine or your car. It's a question of how harmful it is in terms of how loud it is and how much interference' it causes." ARRL Note: None of these devices operate for 24 hours a day with interference stretching along over a kilometer of overhead power line from each injection point. [NOTE: ARRL does not have a single case of interference on file that shows a garage-door opener causing harmful interference to the Amateur Radio Service. ed]
PPL Corp. Ditches Internet Program - Times/Tribune
»www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/ne···98&rfi=8
October 4, 2005, Times-Tribune -- "The cost of a full-scale roll-out would be very high, Mr. Santanasto said, though he declined to say how much. Skimming enough customers from cable and telephone companies to make it profitable was unlikely, he said."
BPL Gives Short Shrift to Short Wave
»www.ce-mag.com/archive/05/07/edpage.htm
July 1, 2005, Compliance Engineering magazine -- This article outlines the reasons that some BPL technologies have not effectively addressed their interference issues, as well as outlining the successes of others. The final sentences summarize the need best: "The time to address these interference problems is now, when there are still relatively few commercial sites. FCC must keep its promise that offending systems will be required to resolve interference issues."
Measuring The Costs Of Broadband Services
»www.mwrf.com/Articles/ArticleID/···753.html
July 1, 2005, Microwaves and RF -- The editor of Microwaves and RF accompanied ARRL staff to the Amperion BPL site operated by United Illuminating in Shelton, CT. He documented strong interference to amateur and shortwave spectrum along the entire length of power line in downtown Shelton, and beyond. Any claims by the BPL industry that interference is an old problem were debunked by this well-respected technical publication. The article concludes by noting the value of BPL, but being clear that resolving interference is important to its future.
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| | | pbeaudet
Premium
join:2005-03-02
Burney, CA | If it is not properly notched, it will cause rf interference to hams and others. | |
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jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Lakewood, OH
clubs: | Re: Boo how fast can this technology deliver the internet? How close of a competitor will it be? | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Boo said by jgkolt :how fast can this technology deliver the internet? How close of a competitor will it be? About 500k to several megabits. There is 200 Mbs BPL (backbone speed, not customer speed) in development primarily targeted for in home use, but I don't think anyone has deployed it on overhead power lines. I don't think 200 Mbs Internet access BPL will be very feasible when you consider how much clear spectrum it probably needs to operate (perhaps 40 to 70 Mhz) when the 5-10 Mhz channels in use today can be problematic.
The one advantage to BPL is that it's symmetrical. A claimed advantage you'll often hear is that powerlines are everywhere, so BPL will be in every outlet. The problem is BPL requires a lot of infrastructure to actually light up the power lines. Repeaters are needed about every 2000 feet and the feedpoint where it originates needs to be in the area. This feedpoint needs an Internet backhaul such as fiber or T1 telco facilities. If you applied BPL claims to the telco infrastructure, we should have DSL in every home today due to the ubiquity of copper pairs.
As far as being a viable competitor, even when you take the fluff out of the recent FTTH report, FTTH is beating BPL right now in number of deployments and customers. BPL has been in development since about 1998 but wasn't really pushed in the US until 2003. In three years they have about 30 systems and a little over 4,000 customers. Some on BBR will claim ham radio and the interference issues have been holding back BPL, but BPL limitations and utility inertia have probably held it back much more. The FCC has been relatively lethargic in enforcement of interference regulations, letting some situations slip by that would likely trigger thousands of dollars of fines in other licensed wireless services.
There are systems operating without interference problems, namely the system in Cincinnati, OH operated by Cinergy. This system notches amateur radio spectrum by default and I hear it tends to avoid HF radio spectrum (below 30 Mhz). If other systems were as aggressive in preventing interference the entire industry would benefit; it can be done. But notching and delivery of more bandwidth are at odds with each other. You need more frequencies to deliver more bandwidth. This is what really handicaps BPL going into the future as FTTH becomes more commonplace and DSL and Cable continue their bandwidth and price wars. | |
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| True, you could filter [notch] out the interfering portions
but
BPL interferes with such a wide range of services [not just the hams, although they are the most vocal about it] that if you filtered everyone out A. that would probably a very expensive filter B. the effectiveness would drastically drop to maybe dial-up speeds. | |
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Dagda1175
join:2001-06-17
Goleta, CA | awe no one cares about HAM radio. | |
| | bruxx
join:2003-03-12
Yakima, WA
| Re: awe Right... that is until things go wrong and the phone system and cellular service is down, no Internet, no electricity or water or other basic services.
I'm not into HAM radio, but I have seen what they do and have great admiration for them. Not only is it a fascinating hobby HAM operators provide valuable communications for search and rescue, community events, disasters and other emergency's even during major storms, and they do it at their own expense.
Kudos to HAM radio and I also think this is just another boondoggle. | |
| | | shoan
join:2006-02-27
Benton, AR | Re: awe ok I am not chiming in for either side but if cellular is down and phones are down that most likely means power is down and if power was down you would not have the noise from the BPL going down the lines to interfer with the HAM operators. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: awe said by shoan :ok I am not chiming in for either side but if cellular is down and phones are down that most likely means power is down and if power was down you would not have the noise from the BPL going down the lines to interfer with the HAM operators. This argument has been posted so many times on BBR, it's not even funny. Emergency stations often need to communicate with areas that do have power. HF radio communications are long distance, not local like VHF and UHF communications. And if the frequencies are unusable while the power is on, who can train to use them or even want to invest in equipment that uses them? | |
| | pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | Yeah, it's not like anyone uses those damn things anymore.
Get out much? | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: awe said by pabster :Get out much? ....he says while surfing the Internet all day | |
| | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: awe said by rf_engineer :said by pabster :Get out much? ....he says while surfing the Internet all day Pabster=owned 
Why is it that when BPL comes up, most people lose all sense of logic? The evidence is there and has always been there. It doesn't deliver the goods and it interferes.
So many will believe the BPL Kool-Aid just to get access but if ATT said it were to wire everyone with fiber, they turn into doubting Thomases. | |
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memyselfi
@alltel.net
| Re: awe I am in the optical components industry. What most fail to realize is that Current's latest design is actually fiber for most of the outside plant deployment. The only copper is from the pole to the house. The name "BPL" really doesn't tell the story. In this form the technology works, I have seen it personally. | |
| | | | | | W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| Re: awe Actually, BPL is a last-mile technology -- last few miles, at most. A high-speed backbone is run to a neighborhood, using fiber, wireless, other, and BPL is then typically put onto medium-voltage distribution lines (overhead or underground) then onto 240-volt wiring going to homes and businesses.
There is no reason that the concept could not have an all-fiber or all-wireless backbone. If a utility had lots of fiber already installed, it may make sense to use it for BPL instead of noisy MV lines. Motorola has avoided the use of the MV lines altogether, with their BPL design using Canopy wireless as its backbone and putting BPL on the 240-volt lines. Others, such as Ambient's multi-dwelling unit installation in the Princeton House in Manhattan, use fiber to the premises, then put BPL onto the 240-volt wiring.
Current Technologies appears to be moving into the fiber direction, but as an option, not a design requirement. They can and do still put BPL onto MV lines. Their use of MV is between 32 and 48 MHz, well separated from the Amateur bands. They do operate below 30 MHz, but the 240-volt premise wiring has a much smaller interference footprint than overhead lines, where ARRL and FCC have determined that the emissions from overhead lines are strong for about a half mile from the injection point, along the line. Another BPL company, IBEC, uses the same design approach.
Motorola, Current and IBEC use HomePlug modems on the premise wiring. These have notches in the ham bands, minimizing their potential to interfere with Amateur Radio. See:
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/HomePlug···ARRL.pdf.
Motorola adds additional filters to improve the effectiveness of their product. This also improves the immunity of the product to interference FROM Amateur Radio. (Under the rules, unlicensed devices must not cause harmful interference, and must accept any interference caused to them.)
ARRL has tested the Motorola system at its headquarters buildings in Newington, CT, and found no interference from that installation. It has also noted that the major Current Technologies system in Cincinatti has deployed without major interference problems. Smaller IBEC systems also have not had interference reports. Others, such as Main.net, Ambient and Amperion have been embroiled in sometimes-bitter interference disputes, with radio operators filing interference reports and the companies denying that it exists. (Amperion recently contacted ARRL, looking to work out any interference problems with its designs.)
ARRL has not yet tested any systems made by Corinex - a new player in the US market -- but they are deploying a utility-application system in Houston, TX, so the opportunity to look at their design is imminent. They use DS2 chipsets, and ARRL has seen some improvements in the DS2 chipset design, so it is all a question of whether a company using DS2 chips uses DS2's design to its best advantage.
See »www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/03/22/1/.
ARRL has been working hard to help the BPL industry resolve its interference issues. Those companies that are capable of doing so are working hard with them. Those whose designs cannot resolve interference are issuing press releases claiming that "non-frivolous" interference complaints have all been resolved, ensuring that their customers (the electric utilities) will continue to be on the receiving end of interference complaints.
Ed Hare, ARRL
contact info in earlier post | |
| | 
Balzer
Cat Man Dew
join:2000-12-18
Tulsa | Lets see some proof.. other wise your a troll | |
| | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA
| said by Dagda1175 :no one cares about HAM radio. And pray tell what lengthy study did you perform to come up with this gem of information?
What you mean is that _you_ don't care; those that _do_ care about BPL and its negative impact on HF will continue to push for sane rules regarding its use, and enforcement of those rule by the FCC. | |
| 
cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27
·Verizon FIOS
| Rolling blackouts mean disconnect! :P
Too late. I tried BPL (over home wiring) for two clients and both had hardware failures of the AC-LAN adaptors.
This stuff should have been out long ago. Oh my, my air conditioner is downloading pron and there goes my bandwidth! (RIAA supoena's residential cooling unit for illegal downloads!)  | |
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FCC0077
@midco.net
| Re: Rolling blackouts mean disconnect! I say toast bpl by times ready it speed will look like a dailup speed does today maybe it will have 8mbs max say in 5 years. dsl and cable are to have around 20-30 mbs if you could get that speed bpl sure look slow. even 5 years from now but of course it will take longer for bpl to get going as dsl and cable get faster. my guess is bpl will not be up for 10 years still with a max speed of 8 mbs cable and dsl could be around 50- 70 mbs who would bpl then. it would look like slow dailup connecion now a days. that my 2 cents and $44.32 for gas. | |
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dcsos
@rr.com |  BPL features
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| | W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| Re: BPL features The risk of a shock from a BPL-equipped computer is probably not greater than it is from other equipment that is installed by the power company. The power industry has standards on what it installs on its poles and BPL will be adhering to all safety standards, I am sure.
BPL is new to the power industry, but electric utilities are well versed in power safety.
Ed Hare, ARRL | |
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California Embraces BPL
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Those Knuckle Heads at the California, PUC are at it again with more "pie in the sky".
