Canada Mirrors U.S. Broadband Policy, Gets Same Crap Results Letting your wealthiest ISPs run government? Shockingly not a great idea... We've often talked about how Canada was actually seeing some significant growth in their broadband sector early on, with users seeing faster speeds at fairly reasonable prices. The country also consistently ranked very high in the global broadband penetration rankings -- despite the evil bogeyman known as "geography" -- which many here in the states use to justify the United States' broadband failings. Things were going well for Canadian broadband. But then Canada decided to start mirroring United States broadband policy. That would be fine if the United States actually had a broadband policy. The problem has been that for a decade the United States broadband policy consisted of letting the biggest carriers have whatever they wanted (taxpayer subsidies with no strings or accountability, fewer price controls, fewer consumer protections, laws banning towns from wiring themselves with broadband, any merger they saw fit), and then just hoping that telecom Utopia magically blossomed from the ashes. While proponents of such policies pretended they were simply trying to unleash a "free market," the reality was that investors, lobbyists and executives were busily creating uncompetitive monopoly and duopoly markets, where the biggest carriers literally wrote the laws that governed the competitive landscape. While carriers pretended to love the free market and loathe regulation, they were working tirelessly to impose burdensome regulation upon smaller competitors. Unsurprisingly, this resulted in less competition. Less competition unsurprisingly resulted in U.S. consumers seeing some of the slowest speeds and highest prices among most developed nations. It also resulted in the slow but steady death of independent ISPs, who could barely afford to build their own networks, much less navigate the political minefield created by lawmakers leashed by companies like AT&T, Verizon and Comcast. The reality is there is always a balance between free market ideals and intelligent, reasonable regulation to be debated on a case by case basis. But somehow carriers in the States managed to convince the entire country that progressively gutting all regulatory oversight of carriers -- and putting company executives in charge of regulating the very companies they worked for -- was the path to telecom nirvana. Canada's biggest carriers managed to convince Canadian politicians (via campaign contribution) that this model was one to mirror, and the results aren't surprising. GigaOM directs our attention to a new study (pdf) from the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard, noting that Canada's broadband fortunes (at least consumer fortunes) are dwindling: "Canada opened the decade as an extremely strong performer on broadband. Over the course of the decade, its penetration rates have grown more slowly than those of other countries, its prices have remained high, and its speeds are still low in comparison to other OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development)� Canada continues to see itself as a high performer in broadband, as it was early in the decade, but current benchmarks suggest that this is no longer a realistic picture of its comparative performance on several relevant measures." We've watched Canada's biggest carriers grow more powerful, while independent Canadian ISPs slowly have been fighting for their life. Canadian regulators like the CRTC, stocked with former Bell and Rogers executives, have repeatedly ignored anticompetitive attacks on small carriers. Regulators have tried to prevent wireless competitors from entering the market because they weren't Canadian enough (aka protectionism). Cable's biggest carriers are happily now imposing ridiculously low caps and high per gigabyte overages, while Canada's falling down the rankings in terms of price per MB, speed, and broadband penetration. Canada's Globe and Mail, responding to the report, took the opportunity to call for a new Canadian national broadband policy. As we see here in the United States, you'll see all manner of suggestions for how things could be fixed. But few will bother to note that the root of the problem, both in the United States and Canada, rests with letting your biggest and wealthiest carriers dictate policy, while marginalizing consumer interests at every possibility. Carriers don't want competition, therefore in markets where carriers control regulators you (now stick with us, class, this gets complicated) often won't see any. Of course if Canada does decide to create a new national broadband plan, they probably should avoid mirroring their neighbors to the south this time. Every indication is that aside from some much needed funding for rural expansion, the Unites States' new national broadband plan talks a lot, but makes no real bold choices. It focuses on absolutely everything under the sun, from distracted driving to community engagement -- but at no point does it really tackle the lack of competition -- or how the biggest telecom players work very hard to push government to keep it that way.
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 | | Fascinating I find it fascinating that a supposedly third-world country (Mexico) has better penetration of broadband than their neighbors above them.  -- Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. Robert Orben
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|  |  | | Re: Fascinating How does Mexico have better broadband penetration?
The answer is that broadband is not widely available. Instead the rich that have it have high speeds, while the majority (poor) don't.
After all, if Mexico was a rich country to have broadband universally, millions of their citizens wouldn't be crossing the desert to live here and have their children here. | |
|  |  Z80APremium join:2009-11-23 | That is because there is no one left there to wire. They're all here.  | |
|  |  patcat88 join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY kudos:1 | Why does penetration matter? Coverage is what important. Boasting about penetration means forcing people to subscribe. | |
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 AVonGaussPremium,MVM join:2007-11-01 Boynton Beach, FL | Vast Corn Fields See, what I find funny is that vast corn fields are relatively easy to deploy through if you are talking a technology like fiber. In most areas there is already an "easement" of sorts, few other pieces of infrastructure in the ground to worry about and with fiber repeaters are much farther apart. This of course does not include the fact that most don't live on farms at this point but have rather formed in to nice convenient groupings called Towns. | |
|  |  | | The fight We have not given up the good fight yet. Its a uphill battle but we wont give up. | |
|  |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP join:2004-03-07 Canada | Re: The fight the CRTC knows we are watching. Closely. | |
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 Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
| Graph says it all As bad as the US broadband policy is at least (in some areas) you do have competition going on. Up here one of our most populous provinces (Ontario) has a very stagnant market. The only competition between the major players is which one can charge the most while offering the least service.
Further more your FCC is somewhat proactive in setting policy (though heavily influenced by lobbing), our equivalent, the CRTC would rather not make policy at all and "let the market decide"; a market which basically consists of two players with different technology (cable vs. DSL). This is not surprising because the CRTC is a retirement home for former Telecom executives, several of which have worked for both companies in the past.
The US carriers would love the CRTC, caps, force wholesalers slower speeds, throttling, deceitful up to access speeds, double billing for bandwidth usage are all fine so long as the carriers claim they need it, proof is not required. | |
|  |  Host: Road Runner PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
| Re: Graph says it all As bad as the US broadband policy is at least (in some areas) you do have competition going on. We have some competition, in some markets. Many, many people have the choice of one carrier.your FCC is somewhat proactive in setting policy Actually, they're very skilled in pretending that the policy they set is of a high quality and pro-consumer. That's not the same thing as setting good policy. They're just better at PR (no matter which party controls it).The US carriers would love the CRTC, caps, force wholesalers slower speeds, throttling, deceitful up to access speeds, double billing for bandwidth usage are all fine so long as the carriers claim they need it, proof is not required. And we're headed that direction anyway. | |
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·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Graph says it all said by Karl Bode:And we're headed that direction anyway. Better brace for dial-up speeds, higher prices and abusive customer support. Stock up on vaseline while you can, you are in for one hell of a dry hump.  | |
|  |  |  |  elios join:2005-11-15 Springfield, MO | Re: Graph says it all brace for? were there already in some areas of the USA | |
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 |  |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP join:2004-03-07 Canada | the "choice" of one carrier. zing! | |
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 |  ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium join:2002-03-03 Mullica Hill, NJ kudos:4 | said by Thane_Bitter:As bad as the US broadband policy is at least (in some areas) you do have competition going on. And with wireless systems moving seriously in to broadband speeds over the next 2 years, competition will be increasing and also spreading in to currently under-served areas. | |
|  |  |  tubbynetreminds me of the danse russePremium,MVM join:2008-01-16 Chandler, AZ | Re: Graph says it all said by ThrowDemsOut:And with wireless systems moving seriously in to broadband speeds over the next 2 years, competition will be increasing and also spreading in to currently under-served areas. with the migration to lte, yes. however, one would *hope* that the carriers who are deploying said gear anticipate the use of this for the home (as fixed-point broadband) rather than mobile type use. i would assume that the two could be delineated through channel/frequency differences, but the spectrum and the tower backhaul would need to be there as well.
given past experiences with "rural" hspa/evdo rev0/evdo reva, i'm not exactly optimistic.
q. -- "...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..." | |
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 |  patcat88 join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY kudos:1 | said by Thane_Bitter:As bad as the US broadband policy is at least (in some areas) you do have competition going on. Up here one of our most populous provinces (Ontario) has a very stagnant market. The only competition between the major players is which one can charge the most while offering the least service. Further more your FCC is somewhat proactive in setting policy (though heavily influenced by lobbing), our equivalent, the CRTC would rather not make policy at all and "let the market decide"; a market which basically consists of two players with different technology (cable vs. DSL). This is not surprising because the CRTC is a retirement home for former Telecom executives, several of which have worked for both companies in the past. The US carriers would love the CRTC, caps, force wholesalers slower speeds, throttling, deceitful up to access speeds, double billing for bandwidth usage are all fine so long as the carriers claim they need it, proof is not required. CRTC is much better than the FCC. Canada has GAS, which means anywhere you can get ILEC DSL you can get CLEC DSL, since the ILEC's DSLAMs are unbundled. In the USA, CLECs are forced to colocate equipment at the CO, which means only a small portion of the USA can get CLEC DSL since they must be within range of the CO, and have copper available all the way back to the CO (not Fiber in the loop). | |
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 chelpt join:2008-05-24 La Crosse, WI Reviews:
·US Cellular
| Had to hit the fan at some point. During these recent Olympics we have been learning many interesting factoids about Canada. Among them, I think is that nearly 90% of their population lives within a 100 miles of the US/CANADA border. With that kind of population density, it would be very likely that your broadband deployment will be very fast. So now that they need to hit up construction in their far out places... is it no wonder?
I tell you what, if any one individual here has the data... why don't you figure out how much it will cost to bury cable for 400 miles to some random town the size of 40 people out in the Permafrost. Then find out how much it will cost to pay people to put the thing together at this new fictional remote.
After that, post it to this web site so that we can really help solve a problem.
My bet is that this may be what causes the government to flinch at helping to fund these things... that the cost would be too high. | |
|  |  andybPremium join:2003-05-29 SW Ontario kudos:1 Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
| Re: Had to hit the fan at some point. said by chelpt:During these recent Olympics we have been learning many interesting factoids about Canada. Among them, I think is that nearly 90% of their population lives within a 100 miles of the US/CANADA border. With that kind of population density, it would be very likely that your broadband deployment will be very fast. So now that they need to hit up construction in their far out places... is it no wonder? I tell you what, if any one individual here has the data... why don't you figure out how much it will cost to bury cable for 400 miles to some random town the size of 40 people out in the Permafrost. Then find out how much it will cost to pay people to put the thing together at this new fictional remote. After that, post it to this web site so that we can really help solve a problem. My bet is that this may be what causes the government to flinch at helping to fund these things... that the cost would be too high. Maybe we can just start with the people that live in the dense area's first getting 5mb speed before we worry about fibre to outback | |
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·Cogeco Cable
| Im Canadian, and i play xbox with a guy who lives in the great white north (think modern day eskimo), in a remote village of 120 people. My wonderful Candian government saw fit run the village a fibre and pay for it. After all, pentration is the idea right? He now has a 50/50 connection with a 31 ping to ny, ny. He also lives within 400 miles of the arctic circle. Yep, I think the penetration is the dryhump that Thane_Bitter is refering to. | |
|  |  |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP join:2004-03-07 Canada 1 edit | Re: Had to hit the fan at some point. You can't use "penetration" and "dry-hump" in the same sentence 
But yes, geography is a red herring. | |
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 |  |  |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP join:2004-03-07 Canada | And a large percentage of that poplulation lives in the Great Lakes Basin...i.e. Ont/Quebec. So geography is a red herring. | |
|  |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP join:2004-03-07 Canada | By the way keep learning! It amazes me how much typical Americans know really so little about Canadians, relative to how much Canadians know about the U.S. and the rest of the world, for that matter.
But catchup is okay! | |
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 El Quintron... a faint odor of kerosenePremium join:2008-04-28 Etobicoke, ON kudos:2 Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·voip.ms
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
| The unfortunate reality about Canada... Is that we have reactive corporations and a reactive government. So once Canada go from being an internet and telecom D- to an international IT pariah, someone will get their thumbs out of their asses and do something to fix it.
Their will be lots of chest thumping, more tax dollars leaving the federal coffers, bad value for dollar obtained by ILECS receiving massive subsidies from the Feds and then we'll have a half assed, but adequate infrastructure for a couple of years.
Rinse and repeat as necessary.
We could avoid this, if we broke up the ILECs... and got rid of the CRTC but I guess that would be both intelligent and un-patriotic, so it won't happen. -- Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell, and I am the Devil. Good evening. You can call me Toby, if you like - we try and keep things informal here, as well as infernal. | |
|  GbcueAlmost P.E.Premium join:2001-09-30 Santa Rosa, CA kudos:8 | Japan & Korea You'd think they were racing to the top.
Another thing Japan can do better than America... Broadband. -- My Blog 2.0 | |
|  |  | | Re: Japan & Korea Gee....do ya think that Japan and Korea have a size advantage over the US??? 
With Japan's mountains they can probably cover their entire country with 20 towers. In the US 20 towers won't even cover 1/10th the state of Iowa.
Think about it. | |
|  |  |  GbcueAlmost P.E.Premium join:2001-09-30 Santa Rosa, CA kudos:8 Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Japan & Korea said by acoustix:Gee....do ya think that Japan and Korea have a size advantage over the US???  With Japan's mountains they can probably cover their entire country with 20 towers. In the US 20 towers won't even cover 1/10th the state of Iowa. Think about it. Fiber towers?
What towers? -- My Blog 2.0 | |
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 |  DaveDudeNo Fear join:1999-09-01 New Jersey kudos:1 Reviews:
·ViaTalk
·Vonage
·Comcast
1 edit | said by Gbcue:You'd think they were racing to the top. Another thing Japan can do better than America... Broadband. Lets see, its 1/18 the size of the US. They also dont have a huge deficit. | |
|  |  |  andybPremium join:2003-05-29 SW Ontario kudos:1 | Re: Japan & Korea Did you mean deficit?If you did you better check their GDP | |
|  |  |  Z80APremium join:2009-11-23 | Actually they are better than us at running up debt as well. Their current debt is 150% of GDP. We're at "only" 94% but catching up fast. | |
|  |  |  |  DaveDudeNo Fear join:1999-09-01 New Jersey kudos:1 Reviews:
·ViaTalk
·Vonage
·Comcast
| Re: Japan & Korea said by Z80A:Actually they are better than us at running up debt as well. Their current debt is 150% of GDP. We're at "only" 94% but catching up fast. So i guess they will have nice broadband, but they are heading into a deep depression as well. I want the saving party, not democrat, or republican. | |
|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Japan & Korea said by DaveDude:said by Z80A:Actually they are better than us at running up debt as well. Their current debt is 150% of GDP. We're at "only" 94% but catching up fast. So i guess they will have nice broadband, but they are heading into a deep depression as well. I want the saving party, not democrat, or republican. So basically your entire belief system as to why Japan has so much FTTH deployment (low debt), was shot down, and you have nothing to respond with other than "Dems and Pubs are evil!"
Look, the government created a regulatory framework that incentivizes ISPs to reinvest their profits back into network buildouts and expansion. It's very effective here. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  DaveDudeNo Fear join:1999-09-01 New Jersey kudos:1 Reviews:
·ViaTalk
·Vonage
·Comcast
| Re: Japan & Korea said by sonicmerlin:said by DaveDude:said by Z80A:Actually they are better than us at running up debt as well. Their current debt is 150% of GDP. We're at "only" 94% but catching up fast. So i guess they will have nice broadband, but they are heading into a deep depression as well. I want the saving party, not democrat, or republican. So basically your entire belief system as to why Japan has so much FTTH deployment (low debt), was shot down, and you have nothing to respond with other than "Dems and Pubs are evil!" Look, the government created a regulatory framework that incentivizes ISPs to reinvest their profits back into network buildouts and expansion. It's very effective here. Maybe if you re-read, you will notice, that i didnt say "Dems and Pubs are evil" People want entitlements, and not to help corporations, look at every article on this board. -- They Live... We Sleep...
Spreading the wealth around never results in a better outcome for people. It always results in destruction.
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 |  Z80APremium join:2009-11-23 Reviews:
·Cox HSI
3 edits | It's easy and profitable to deploy to the majority when you are smaller than California with 4X the population and have 10% of that population living in a single city. Pack the US population into California with the vast majority in 3-4 cities and deployment would be cheap and profitable too.
Meanwhile this speedtest data doesn't represent what people can GET, only what they CHOOSE to buy. | |
|  |  |  tubbynetreminds me of the danse russePremium,MVM join:2008-01-16 Chandler, AZ | Re: Japan & Korea said by Z80A:It's easy and profitable to deploy to the majority when you are smaller than California with 4X the population and have 10% of that population living in a single city. Pack the US population into California with the vast majority in 3-4 cities and deployment would be cheap and profitable too. of course, if this were true, the top 10 cities in the us (in terms of population) would be wired with insane speeds. i live in a suburb of phoenix (the 5th largest city in the nation), chandler, which makes up part of the "valley of the sun" which is th 12th most populous metroplex in the nation. d3 hasn't even been rolled out to all parts of the valley yet. our lec is so backwards, less than 25% of their footprint is able to get anything more than 12meg.
lets call it like it is.
q. -- "...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..." | |
|  |  |  |  Z80APremium join:2009-11-23 Reviews:
·Cox HSI
1 edit | Re: Japan & Korea They would be wired for insane speeds if the telecoms didn't have to be concerned with wiring anywhere else. But they like everyone else have a budget and deploy using a bigger scope and time frame. And of course if they did do as you suggest and wire the densest population first, everyone here would scream that they're redlining. | |
|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Japan & Korea said by Z80A:They would be wired for insane speeds if the telecoms didn't have to be concerned with wiring anywhere else. But they like everyone else have a budget and deploy using a bigger scope and time frame. And of course if they did do as you suggest and wire the densest population first, everyone here would scream that they're redlining. So you're saying the telecoms have failed to wire up the major cities with fiber because they were "distracted" by your nonsense, imaginary rural build-outs? And that there was too much protest over them redlining cities with plans for citywide buildouts?
Do you ever think before you speak? | |
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·magicjack.com
·TekSavvy DSL
| said by Gbcue:You'd think they were racing to the top. Another thing Japan can do better than America... Broadband. Actually, it would be almost acceptable to be even 20th. The Russian Federation blows both countries out of the water. When you see a country like Muldova just missing the top 10, it proves both of our countries have some major problems.
With my location, I would be simply unable to get DSL from my own town (6km to CO, no remotes). My phone is from another town in another region (3.2km), so I can have 3008/512 DSL. I should easily have 5056/800, but what can you expect from 45 year old soggy feeder cables that Bell says is "good enough" (yeah, for what - the scrap pile?).
Indeed, 90% of Canada's population resides within 100 miles (north) of the US border. Over 56% of Canada's population lives in that 730 mile stretch from Windsor, Ontario to Quebec, QC. That should allow for one heck of a fine network, not the joke in poor taste we have.
The duopoly (Bell + Rogers/Cogeco Cable) want no part of competition, and their golfing buddies at the CTRC are doing everything in their power to make certain competition is stifled. They're doing everything in their power to break the back of the independent ISP. Just look at the troubles Wind had to get started up in cell phone competition!!
At least your FCC is giving lip service to improving broadband. Our CTRC is just granting freedom of license to the cablecos and telcos to shaft the population as they want. | |
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 | | Canada? While Canada is a physically large country they don't have the same issues as the US. 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. That makes it EXTREMELY easy for them to deploy new technologies. The US, on the other hand, is obviously more spread out.
The same people that complain that these kinds of comparisons are the same people who don't realize that Japan and Korea also have a size advantage when it comes to deploying new wireline and wireless services.
Get a clue. | |
|  |  andybPremium join:2003-05-29 SW Ontario kudos:1 | Re: Canada? Uh that border is quite large.While alot of people live along it,it aint one big pile of people in the same spot. | |
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 Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| The backbone has been laid Any disadvantage we might have because of our size has already been eliminated. The backbone has been laid. Infact the latest supernet dark fibers are already there for the future. It is simply a factor of running the fibers to the houses.
Figure out the average costs of that. Set a blanket activation cost of such. To get installs going. Then dispatch the minions to do so. Rough costs at that point would be $5000 or less. Then setup such that once the basic necessities are there to service 30-40 people in the area. Running the lines costs next to nothing (relatively to before); such as what FIOS is doing.
The fibers need to be placed. Prioritizing installation based on enthusiastic fools like those of us at this site. That said... $5000 is more or less treated as a downpayment and not just a "we pay the corporation to get service and they pay on top of that" | |
|  |  ReformCRTCSupport Your Independent ISP join:2004-03-07 Canada | Re: The backbone has been laid How much was it to run last mile Bell copper? Or cable co-ax?
Yank that out and replace with fiber. If there is a will, and co-ordination, it can be done. | |
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 Quake110Premium join:2003-12-20 Ottawa, ON | Excuses, excuses... Québec City - Windsor Corridor |
According to Wikipedia: "The 1,150-kilometre (710 mi) Quebec CityWindsor Corridor is the most densely-populated and heavily-industrialized region of Canada. With over 17 million people (2001 Census), it contained 56.8% of the Canadian population."
So for this region of Canada, we can easily have a fibre connection due to the high-density. For me, it's just an excuse. | |
|  |  El Quintron... a faint odor of kerosenePremium join:2008-04-28 Etobicoke, ON kudos:2 | Re: Excuses, excuses... I'm there with you on that...
Excuses and protecting our dinosaurs from extinction. | |
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 | | GOD! Why do always have to follow what the US does? Do we not we have enough brains of our own? | |
|  AkFubarNothing is more constant than change join:2005-02-28 Toronto CAN. Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
| The Truth is Out There! Yet another revealing report on the truth of the way things are in Canada. Someone should throw this report in Von Finkydink's face at the CRTC. Oh wait! I forgot, he said doesn't read these types of reports.  -- If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? | |
|  |  | | Re: The Truth is Out There! said by AkFubar:Yet another revealing report on the truth of the way things are in Canada. Someone should throw this report in Von Finkydink's face at the CRTC. Oh wait! I forgot, he said doesn't read these types of reports. The thing is the Ma Bell system is in Both Places (Canada and the States),the Ma Bell's don't like competition in general and try their hardest to keep it that way. It sucks,I wish the Ma Bell's would just die off and let REAL competition do the job.Thank god finklefart's leaving in 2012... | |
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·magicjack.com
·TekSavvy DSL
| Re: The Truth is Out There! said by JunjiHiroma Thank god finklefart's leaving in 2012... [/BQUOTE :Yeah, but a lot of damage can be created in 24 months...  | |
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