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Canadian Regulators Send Another Love Letter To Bell Canada
Allows telco to double dip wholesale competitors...

Last year, Bell Canada started throttling wholesale customer ISPs without telling them, ensuring that these smaller operators couldn't offer an un-throttled connection to consumers that was better than Bell's throttled Sympatico service. As their back up plan against competitors in case regulators stopped them, Bell Canada started devising a usage-based billing (UBB) system smaller Canadian carriers worried could drive them out of business.

Canadian regulatory authority the CRTC, staffed with former incumbent carrier executives, so far hasn't lifted a finger to come to the aid of independent carriers. The CRTC continued this trend by today approving Bell's UBB plans. CRTC employees like vice-chairman Leonard Katz, who spent 17 years working for Rogers and 11 for Bell, aren't concerned...for some strange reason.

Independent ISPs in our forums complain that not only is Bell Canada being allowed to tinker with other carrier's bandwidth as if it were their own, they're now effectively being allowed to double dip. Canada's been trying very hard to mirror the telecom policy of their neighbors to the south: namely, give incumbent ISPs everything they want, while ignoring the problems that face consumers and smaller, independent ISPs.

The results should be familiar. OECD broadband data indicates that Canada is sliding when it comes to global broadband rankings. Canada now ranks 27th out of 30 countries in terms of price per megabyte -- ahead of just Mexico and Poland. They also rank as thoroughly mediocre in terms of average connection speed at 7Mbps, and carriers in Canada now impose some of the lowest-value usage caps on bandwidth of any developed nation.
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Mr_Derp
join:2004-11-10
Plainfield, ON

Mr_Derp

Member

This is garbage!

Our national regulator of telecom (the CRTC) is entirely and fully corrupt. The folks making decisions that change our lives are appointed former employees of the very corporations they're assigned to regulate.

Hmmm, conflict of interest? Yet the government and courts don't seem to care or notice.

The price of my DSL service will increase $22.50/month.
Ridiculous!

Loads of us in the forum have written to the CRTC many times, and they acknowledge our complaints in the ruling yet our voices don't even matter.

Today, many of us have begun a letter-writing campaign to our MPs and other concerned ministers... Sadly, these complaints will likely go unacknowledged as our government is also in the back pocket of corps like Bell.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki

Member

Re: This is garbage!

Go over the CRTC and go directly to Industry Canada. I've been beating people over the head with this for the last year, the CRTC is useless because it's a regulatory body staffed with patronage appointments.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Re: This is garbage!

Industry Canada's useless too ... this needs to go to Federal courts for judicial review.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki

Member

Re: This is garbage!

said by sbrook:

Industry Canada's useless too ... this needs to go to Federal courts for judicial review.
I'd agree with that as well, but unfortunately most people have been slow moving against the CRTC, it's a massive regulatory agency that's out of step.

Regardless, I need to dust off my lists too.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron to Mr_Derp

Premium Member

to Mr_Derp
I agree with the above posters, hopefully this will go for judicial review....

Arf
@execulink.com

Arf

Anon

Re: This is garbage!

"Hoping" is a bit like praying. It doesn't do much if that's all we do. We all need to write our MPs, and express our concerns about the CRTC, or it'll be business as usual. If they only get a few complaints on an issue, they just chalk it up as a fringe issue for a few "kooks."

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

Re: This is garbage!

Always do... but bringing this to a judicial review is a bit beyond me as an individual.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to Mr_Derp

Premium Member

to Mr_Derp
said by Mr_Derp:

Our national regulator of telecom (the CRTC) is entirely and fully corrupt. The folks making decisions that change our lives are appointed former employees of the very corporations they're assigned to regulate.

Hmmm, conflict of interest? Yet the government and courts don't seem to care or notice.
Congratulations and Welcome to the American system of Government Regulation.
Expand your moderator at work

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Do I Understand This Correctly?

Do I understand this correctly?

Basically the Indie ISPs pay for their connections to the internet, pay Bell for the last-mile to the Indie ISP facility backhaul, and pass a portion of the customer's last mile fee along to Bell also. Now Bell wants to implement usage based billing across that LAST MILE portion only?

Wouldn't that be TRIPLE dipping?
HoboJ
join:2008-03-27
Cornwall, ON

HoboJ

Member

Re: Do I Understand This Correctly?

Triple dipping indeed. The Indie ISP's make little profit as it is. Now they'll be out of business.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

1 recommendation

KrK

Premium Member

Re: Do I Understand This Correctly?

said by HoboJ:

Triple dipping indeed. The Indie ISP's make little profit as it is. Now they'll be out of business.
Which is the point, really.

What Bell is doing is plainly very anti-competitive... but since the regulatory agency tasked with protecting/preventing said activity is staffed by Bell lobbyists, they don't have to worry.

It's kinda like when the Sheriff in town is brothers with the main outlaw who robs and steals whatever he wishes.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to Matt3

Member

to Matt3
said by Matt3:

Do I understand this correctly?

Basically the Indie ISPs pay for their connections to the internet, pay Bell for the last-mile to the Indie ISP facility backhaul, and pass a portion of the customer's last mile fee along to Bell also. Now Bell wants to implement usage based billing across that LAST MILE portion only?

Wouldn't that be TRIPLE dipping?
I believe they only pay for the user's last mile, the CO to POP backbone/routing is included with the price.

UBB doesn't exist in any form in the USA. In USA, the CLEC must colocate a DSLAM in the CO or at the RT (never done). In Canada, a CLEC can just order a ATM circuit from their single POP to a customer for ~$30 or whatever per month (while that would $3000/mo if it was an SLAed business grade product that ILECs oh so love to sell). Bell provides the middle mile routing fabric from the CO to a regional hub/the ISP's POP.
a1_Andy
Premium Member
join:2005-12-29
Oshawa, ON

a1_Andy

Premium Member

double dip is right!

Teksavvy pays for their speed/bandwidth/gige's, and now bell gets to charge them (and us) for how much its used!

This is akin to having a wind generator for your home and then hydro one gets permission from a regulator to put a meter on it and bill you for your power usage.

Or having well water and having the county meter it and bill you for it (our county tried to pass that one). Tells us allot about how corrupt our regulators here are. Its not about the people its about the corporations and the mighty buck...... aft
chimera4
join:2009-06-09
Washington, DC

1 edit

chimera4

Member

Re: double dip is right!

Depending on how the water table in your area works this sometimes can make sense. If you have a access to the same water table that feeds a city's reservoir then in a drought situation you're on the same water grid even if you aren't getting the benefits of water treatment. It's one of the reasons that almost no deeds being sold now contain water or mineral rights.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to a1_Andy

Member

to a1_Andy
said by a1_Andy:

Teksavvy pays for their speed/bandwidth/gige's, and now bell gets to charge them (and us) for how much its used!

This is akin to having a wind generator for your home and then hydro one gets permission from a regulator to put a meter on it and bill you for your power usage.

Or having well water and having the county meter it and bill you for it (our county tried to pass that one). Tells us allot about how corrupt our regulators here are. Its not about the people its about the corporations and the mighty buck...... aft
This is already done. The govt owns all water rights beneath you, and above you. Your deed doesn't allow you to collect water from nature. The monopoly govt also says you have to subscribe to the power grid, city water and sewer and gas, or your property will be condemned and loose its certificate of occupancy.

Soiduts
join:2002-04-02
Ontario

Soiduts

Member

CRTC needs to be dissolved

Guess this shows there is absolutely no point in having the CRTC as a regulatory body as they do not do anything for the Canadian public like they are supposed to. The public is supposed to be first, not big business. Will definitely be writing MP (not like that's going to do anything other then receiving a standard reply.)

Internet usage is not on the way down its going up. Revision3 started posting HD videos of their shows and I watch 4 of those a week. Almost 20gb a month JUST there!

The CRTC is really getting annoying...
justsomeguy8
join:2007-10-08
N5M3Z3

1 edit

justsomeguy8

Member

Profit

The Indie ISPs make plenty of profit

"Teksavvy among Elite 2009 Group"

»www.chathamdailynews.ca/ ··· =1595270

#27 on Profit Magazine's Top 100 Fastest Growing Companies list.

With over 10 million in revenue last year.

Now I can see them maybe losing some heavy users, but where
are they going to go? Teksavvy for instance would still provide
its users with a MASSIVE amount of savings over using Bell's Retail products. (and rogers products too!)

And people who dont use over 60GB, it wont bother them.

The Sky Isnt Falling!!

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz

MVM

Re: Profit

said by justsomeguy8:

The Indie ISPs make plenty of profit

"Teksavvy among Elite 2009 Group"

»www.chathamdailynews.ca/ ··· =1595270

#27 on Profit Magazine's Top 100 Fastest Growing Companies list.

With over 10 million in revenue last year.

Now I can see them maybe losing some heavy users, but where
are they going to go? Teksavvy for instance would still provide
its users with a MASSIVE amount of savings over using Bell's Retail products. (and rogers products too!)

And people who dont use over 60GB, it wont bother them.

The Sky Isnt Falling!!
The average TekSavvy customer uses well over 60GB. I believe the average customer would pay the $22.50 max.

TekSavvy's revenue from *last* year is largely before most of the throttling/UBB/etc garbage that has cost them significant amount of money. It was also before they bought a FTTH company in an attempt to build out their own network.

Also, consider that the UBB fees would probably add up to more than TekSavvy's revenue. If they raise prices to compensate, their pricing will be *slightly* lower than Bell's, but not dramatically so.

sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa

sbrook

Mod

Re: Profit

Why do people keep reading increases in revenue as profit?

Lots of companies can increase revenue and still go broke.

Lots of companies in the last year have had enormous revenues, decreased interest debt and still lost gobs of money.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to justsomeguy8

Premium Member

to justsomeguy8
said by justsomeguy8:

The Indie ISPs make plenty of profit

"Teksavvy among Elite 2009 Group"

»www.chathamdailynews.ca/ ··· =1595270

#27 on Profit Magazine's Top 100 Fastest Growing Companies list.

With over 10 million in revenue last year.
Just because a company has a listing in Profit Magazine doesn't mean that their profits are 'plenty' as you so quaintly put it.

$10MM revenue isn't the same as 'profit'.

If you had half an inkling of the legals costs incurred this past year because of Bell's actions, and the amount invested in building their infrastructure, and knowing that about 2/3rds of every dollar of revenue goes straight to Bell, you might just begin to understand that their profits aren't what you think they are.
TheMG
Premium Member
join:2007-09-04
Canada

TheMG

Premium Member

Re: Profit

Well said. Revenue != profit.
Banimator
join:2008-10-20

Banimator

Member

CRTC Corrupt?

The CRTC just made all the smaller indepedent ISP's out there into mini bells...they just screwed over 100's of small businesses. At least they could of given a timeline or a longer notice so the smaller ISP's could know that their revenue is about to go downhill, and they could invest with that in mind.

I just can't believe this, I think the CRTC just doesn't have the intelligence to make this decision, when listening to the hearings they obviously have no idea what the technicalaties are, they took a test but they really don't understand the situation...

adisor19
join:2004-10-11

adisor19

Member

Re: CRTC Corrupt?

said by Banimator:

The CRTC just made all the smaller indepedent ISP's out there into mini bells...they just screwed over 100's of small businesses. At least they could of given a timeline or a longer notice so the smaller ISP's could know that their revenue is about to go downhill, and they could invest with that in mind.

I just can't believe this, I think the CRTC just doesn't have the intelligence to make this decision, when listening to the hearings they obviously have no idea what the technicalaties are, they took a test but they really don't understand the situation...
Oh no, this is beyond them having any intelligence ! This is the CRTC insulting OUR intelligence ! This is the final proof that they are a 100% big telecom lobbied body who only has the big telco's interests at heart and nothing else. All this throttling sharade they put on was just BS to try and convey to us that they somehow care when in fact, all they care about is to screw the consumers even more. Time get rid of them once and for all.

Adi
adisor19

adisor19

Member

CRTC needs to go or have staff ELECTED by the public

This is unbelievable ! It goes to show that not only are they on Bell's side, but they also put on a mascarade of a show trying to show us how they care about throttling and in the end it all come down to this : BS !

Adi

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki

Member

Re: CRTC needs to go or have staff ELECTED by the public

It's a regulatory agency, it'll never happen. But the current form of the CRTC needs to be dissolved and has been ever since CANCON was shoved down our throats.

phoneboy3
@shawcable.net

1 recommendation

phoneboy3

Anon

CRTC is a failed Gov't beauracracy.

They have failed at spurring competition and are in the pockets of the national telcos.
vintagewino
join:2003-07-22
Grimsby, ON

vintagewino

Member

Not true ...

"Canadian regulatory authority the CRTC, staffed with former incumbent carrier executives, so far hasn't lifted a finger to come to the aid of independent carriers."

Don't lie. They have lifted a finger to help the independents. It is the MIDDLE finger!!!

We now have less choice than ever. Thought we were a laughing stock before? "You ain't seen nothin' yet!"

Time to abolish this stupid national joke called the CRTC.
a1_Andy
Premium Member
join:2005-12-29
Oshawa, ON

a1_Andy

Premium Member

Only news on this today so far

The only news on this today so far is Karls article here on dslr.
»news.google.ca/news/sear ··· ubb+bell

[sarcasm]I can see this is going to be in the public eye real soon[/sarcasm]
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

Clowns

Either the CRTC commissioners detached from reality and have forgotten to take their medication, or they are simply a bunch of clowns, and it's time to treat them as such. Clown suits, bulbous noses, and floppy shoes are what they should be forced to wear in public.

Anyone remember when Chretien got pie'd?

DJMASACRE
join:2008-05-27
Nepean, ON

DJMASACRE

Member

Re: Clowns

said by MaynardKrebs:

Either the CRTC commissioners detached from reality and have forgotten to take their medication, or they are simply a bunch of clowns, and it's time to treat them as such. Clown suits, bulbous noses, and floppy shoes are what they should be forced to wear in public.

Anyone remember when Chretien got pie'd?
believe me, if youve following in chat, I was ready to take a my lunch break to cross the bridge and do the same to Finklestein during the hearings

I was trying to get dared on video. It would have been so great :P
t0KE
join:2003-07-03

t0KE

Member

Had me until....

"They also rank as thoroughly mediocre in terms of average connection speed at 7Mbps..."

I was nodding my head in agreement until I read that line.

Anyone that thinks 7mbit is slow/mediocre is insane. There is no logical debate to the contrary.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Had me until....

7 Mbps is lame for cable/fiber but speedy for other techs. I get 8 Mbps at school, 512 kbps down here. Guess how happy I'd be if I could get 7 Mbps here.

You're incorrect. You guessed too low.
zenvok
join:2009-06-09
Gatineau, QC

zenvok to t0KE

Member

to t0KE
It's mediocre COMPARED to other industrialized countries...

Merlin
@rr.com

Merlin

Anon

Jail

More than abolish, I would be pleased to watch the agency's members sent to jail by a newly elected ruling party (when are Canada's elections coming up?). This sort of corruption is downright illegal.

fcisler
Premium Member
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY

fcisler

Premium Member

recent meeting

I'm a little confused. Please correct me on anything here - i'm trying to get the high level overview.

There was the recent hearing/meeting about the throttling itself - is/was this a topic of that meeting? Has any result came out of this meeting/hearing?

As far as I understand (and I could be completely off) the hearing was for the THROTTLING ONLY and they have not came back with and results or determinations (yet?). Am I correct?

The CRTC never "approved" Bell applying the throttling to incumbents. Why now did the CRTC approve the UBB? Because it has to do with money?

What actual power does the CRTC hold? Should they have came out of this meeting and said "Bell - you are wrong - remove the throttling NOW" - would bell be compelled to remove the throttling? Does it have any other "chain of command" (so to speak) to follow?

Now that it's approved on an interim basis 1) When does it begin effect 2) How long will it remain in effect and 3) What who and how will determine if this is going to stay?

I think it would be a very good idea for someone who is well versed in this to put together some sort of time-line and non biased "recap" of all these issues starting with the throttling. By non biased I mean just present facts of "who dunnit!" and the times. In addition - it would be nice to see another document with a "blow by blow" to the time line as to what the effect is on each action and then documents supporting/disproving ideas and actions.

I don't think Bell is right at all here - but an unbiased time line stating facts - I think - would help a majority understand it - followed with a "more information link" to discuss what impact each action has.

My condolences to my neighbors to the north - it sounds like they are now charging YOU to bend over, extra for the lube AND per minute!

CRTCCRAP
@cia.com

CRTCCRAP

Anon

Brought to you by econnomists, not users

Given that the entire CRTC is made up by people with BAs in economics and marketing, it is quite understandable why they would push such a decision. All they see is numbers and how they affect the bottom line. They don't see the long term effects and how it could destroy broadband competitiveness in Canada. Of course by the time Canada's telecommunications industry becomes a laughingstock, they'll be happily retired in Florida.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Can someone post the concise conditions of the new legislati

Is the cost a last-mile $1.875 per GB, up to $22.50 per line, after 60GB transferred? Or something else?

otty
join:2008-10-24
Revelstoke, BC

1 edit

otty

Member

Re: Can someone post the concise conditions of the new legislati

Click for full size
The new tariff
Brief timeline:

Wholesale ISPs can only offer 5000/800kbps connections, Bell up to 16mbps

1. Throttled all wholesale to 35kbps 4pm-2am without notice
2. Thorttling approved by CRTC as the same done to retail (not discriminatory)
3. CRTC ordered Bell to provide access to the same speeds up to 16mbps to wholesale.
4. Bell refuses, appeals to cabinet, and applies for interim stay of the order.
5. Without ruling on the interim stay, or enforcing the order to provide equal speed to wholesale the CRTC APPROVES (interim with no clear date for permanant decision) Bell's above UBB proposal to take effect in 90 days.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

Re: Can someone post the concise conditions of the new legislati

YUCK!

BolivarianHero
@dsl.bell.ca

BolivarianHero

Anon

What a fucking joke this is turning into...

Just over a century ago, power companies in Ontario were gouging consumers left and right, leading to the Conservative (up until the 1980s and the rise of the hard right under Frank Miller and then Mike Harris, the Conservatives were left of the Liberals in provincial politics) government of James P. Whitney to create Ontario Hydro as a means of ensuring that those who provide an essential utility and part of our infrastructure would not be able to hold us hostage to their demands.

The Internet has become a cornerstone of our everyday lives, our way of doing business, and our infrastructure, and rather than treating it as such, the government and its regulatory hacks have decided that provisioning access to the Internet ought to be treated as just another business.

If this attitude continues, countries that treat the Internet as infrastructure rather than as a tool by which certain elites can control our lives and hold society hostage, including such communist hotbeds as the People's Republic of South Korea and the Democratic Republic of Japan, are going to start humiliating us in all indexes pertaining to innovation and to quality of life.
Rilly
join:2007-10-26

Rilly

Member

Affect Bell Business Accounts?

Last time i asked about UBB billing to the Business tech support, they said there will not be any billing changes - but.. they are wholesalers right? Any confirmation if anyone knows if it would affect Bell Business accounts?

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

Re: Affect Bell Business Accounts?

I believe these are changes to wholesale only... Bell retail (residential or business) aren't covered by this tariff.

DJMASACRE
join:2008-05-27
Nepean, ON

DJMASACRE

Member

WHAT The FUCK !

WHAT The FUCK !

pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium Member
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON

pnjunction

Premium Member

Re: WHAT The FUCK !

Might as well drop my profanity here...

Fuck you Bell.
Fuck you CRTC.

A national disgrace.
Tristan
join:2006-09-10
Nepean, ON

Tristan

Member

Shut down the CRTC

SCREW THOSE BASTARDS.

Shut down the CRTC - Shut down those corrupt $%^&*.

Geez I hate em' I hate em' I hate em'
BellACancer
join:2008-06-04

BellACancer

Member

Re: Shut down the CRTC

I have to agree. The CRTC must be shut down ASAP !!!
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