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story category Canadian Regulators Strangling Independent ISPs
Teksavvy CEO: 'Something is very wrong with how the decision went down'
(old news - 02:02PM Friday Nov 21 2008)
tags: legal · competition · business · world · networking · net-neutrality · Bell Sympatico · TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Tipped by tmpchaos See Profile
Yesterday, Canadian regulators shocked independent carriers by ruling that Bell Canada's decision to throttle wholesale competitors without telling them was neither discriminatory or anti-competitive. One of the most impacted carriers will be Canada's TekSavvy, an independent operator that have built somewhat of a cult following in Canada due to actually giving customers personal attention in a sea of outsourced incumbent support. We spoke briefly with TekSavvy CEO Rocky Gaudrault about how yesterday's decision will impact his business.

Gaudrault says he's "extremely disappointed" in the CRTC's decision, and notes that in addition to the obvious anti-competitive ramifications of the ruling, there's some "collateral damage the CRTC had no interest in," such as the added costs of having to support Bell Canada's throttling hardware. "Going forward we are going to have to consider the multiple hundreds of hours that will be spent in troubleshooting internet DSL problems either caused by -- or as a result of -- deep packet inspection (DPI)," he says.

Something is very wrong with how the decision went down, and I really hope those responsible for causing this have their day on owning up to what they've done to Internet in Canada.
-TekSavvy CEO
"One good thing, should there be one identified, is public awareness on the issue of DPI," says the CEO, somewhat optimistically in the face of fairly dismal news. "Throttling & corporate greed has been elevated to a point of possible action by the population and who knows, this may have been one of those 'lose the battle today to win the war tomorrow' kind of events," says Gaudrault.

Most Canadians look to the FCC's recent sanction against Comcast lustfully, hoping their own CRTC will someday become a more Internet-centric agency. Still, many Canadians don't understand that the FCC's sanction was largely decorative for political effect, given it did not create new rules, came with no fine, and may not even hold up to Comcast legal assault in court.

That said, the FCC/Comcast and CAIP/Bell Canada fights helped make network neutrality a front-page issue across North America, while providing very concrete abuse examples of a nebulous concept to a confused public. Until this year, the network neutrality debate was largely absent in both Canadian politics and mainstream technology news coverage. Given the growing awareness, Gaudrault says he "can't see the CRTC sitting idly by on this matter."

Click for full size
The CRTC's belief that Bell wasn't acting anti-competitively didn't entirely surprise Gaudrault or CAIP. While Bell Canada had close counsel with the regulatory agency, CAIP (Canadian Association of Internet Providers) says they weren't kept abreast by the CRTC when it came to the agency's continued delays in issuing a verdict. Earlier CRTC rulings seemed apathetic to the concerns of small ISPs across Canada.

So where's the disconnect? The CRTC's vice-chairman, Leonard Katz, spent 17 years working for Rogers and 11 for Bell. Canada's Telecom Telecommunications Policy Review Panel, tasked with determining regulatory framework, was led by the ex-owner of Inukshuk (sold to Bell/Rogers), an exec that played a huge role in the Bell & Microsoft alliance and a lawyer whose firm represents incumbent operators.

There simply isn't much room for either consumer advocate or small business input.

As in the United States, the revolving door between regulators, incumbent lobbyists and incumbent executives make regulatory objectivity almost impossible, and incumbent favoritism almost guaranteed. As also in the United States, the result is that smaller businesses have a much harder time succeeding in the market, and, in most cases, wind up being systematically eradicated "for the good of the market."

Click for full size
The expected dysfunction didn't make the CRTC's decision any less stunning. Particularly given that Bell Canada did not publicly prove that network congestion made the decision necessary. It's clear to everyone but the CRTC that the move was aimed at stopping competitors from offering superior, un-throttled alternatives to Bell's throttled Sympatico DSL offering, while giving Bell Canada's video store a leg up against independent P2P video delivery operations.

TekSavvy worries that their troubles with Bell may only just be beginning. In addition to throttling wholesale traffic before it reaches TekSavvy's network, Bell has shown interest in double dipping -- charging wholesalers for bandwidth up front, but then applying usage-based charges on the other end. "I fear we're nowhere near done with that one," says Gaudrault.

TekSavvy and CAIP's only hope now is that public annoyance results in the CRTC being forced to listen to the under-represented when they pick the issue back up again next summer. "Something is very wrong with how the decision went down and I really hope those responsible for causing this have their day on owning up to what they've done to Internet in Canada," says Gaudrault.

Related:
  1. Bell Canada: Throttling Aids Innovation
  2. Bell Canada Devises Backup Plan To Kill Wholesale Competitors
  3. Telus Says Bell Should Pay For Throttling Dispute
  4. Throttled Bell Competitors Still Waiting On CRTC Ruling
  5. CRTC Posts Private Data To Public Website
  6. Canada Holds Hearings On ISP Throttling
  7. Nobody's Complaining About Comcast's New Throttling
  8. CRTC Blocks Canada's WIND Wireless Network
Forums » Canadian Regulators Strangling Independent ISPs
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Post a:

AdrianF

join:2008-11-21
Scarborough, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..

A sad day indeed...

It was a sad day, however, the only way to act right now is to keep our heads up in thinking, like Rocky said, that to lose this battle today could give us what we need to win the war tomorrow.

Bell's business practices, as stated in this article - which was well writen - are quite suspect. But now, with all the added press of the last year or so, perhaps the public will be less inclined to play doormat.

Glen1
These Are The Good Ol' Days.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
·Bell Sympatico

R0CKY and Teksavvy have a right to be upset but...

The CRTC is now taking submissions about the whole throttling issue. Yesterday's decision was based on the question whether Bell was discriminating against Wholesalers with respect to throttling and clearly they were not. Now comes the task of discussing the entire throttling issue, submissions by the end of February and the discussion to start in July.
--
My Canada includes Quebec.

shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

Re: R0CKY and Teksavvy have a right to be upset but...

said by Glen1 See Profile :

The CRTC is now taking submissions about the whole throttling issue. Yesterday's decision was based on the question whether Bell was discriminating against Wholesalers with respect to throttling and clearly they were not. Now comes the task of discussing the entire throttling issue, submissions by the end of February and the discussion to start in July.

BOLDED FOR TRUTH.

Did anybody here, including the story author actually read the decision?

Here it is.

»www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/NEWS/RELEASES···1120.htm

quote:
“Based on the evidence before us, we found that the measures employed by Bell Canada to manage its network were not discriminatory. Bell Canada applied the same traffic-shaping practices to wholesale customers as it did to its own retail customers,” said Konrad von Finckenstein, Q.C., Chairman of the CRTC.

“CAIP's application asked us to only consider the specific issue of wholesale traffic shaping within a specific context. The broader issue of Internet traffic management raises a number of questions that affect both end-users and service providers,” added Mr. von Finckenstein. “We have decided to hold a separate proceeding to consider both wholesale and retail issues. Its main purpose will be to address the extent to which Internet service providers can manage the traffic on their networks in accordance with the Telecommunications Act.”
CAIP screwed up here. They cried that their members were being discriminated against by Bell Canada. Turns out, everybody, regardless of customer status with Bell, is being throttled equally and in the same manner.

You can't complain about being discriminated against if everybody else is experiencing the same thing.

Now, the CRTC will be holding public hearings into the actual practice of throttling itself, so make sure each and every one one of you writes a submission to the CRTC before those hearing start on July 6, 2009.
varius

join:2003-02-22
Montreal, QC


1 edit

Re: R0CKY and Teksavvy have a right to be upset but...

The discrimination is not in the end result, is in the process. A big difference...The one deciding what the experience should be is doing it alone while impacting everyone in the move...and then insist it's in the best interest of everyone...More like a dictator telling you that it's not discriminatory to force eveyone to wear gray clothing...

shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

Re: R0CKY and Teksavvy have a right to be upset but...

You're reading too much into it. This decision is really very, very simple.

CAIP: "Dear CRTC, can you check to see if Bell is throttling our members more than their other customers?"

CRTC: "Sure ... nope, everyone's being throttled the same. Thanks for asking."

Sempronius

join:2008-09-18
Toronto, ON

R0CKY and Teksavvy have a right to be upset but...

said by shaner See Profile :

said by Glen1 See Profile :


[quote
CAIP screwed up here. They cried that their members were being discriminated against by Bell Canada. Turns out, everybody, regardless of customer status with Bell, is being throttled equally and in the same manner.

You can't complain about being discriminated against if everybody else is experiencing the same thing.
Unfortunately, what is being overlooked is the fact that Bell Canada did not provide Wholesalers with 30 days notice of intent to throttle Wholesale customers. Bell Canada quietly implemented this procedure believing that no one would notice. It wasn't until Wholesale customers began to notice a slowing down of the service that questions began to be asked of Bell Canada. Only when confronted did Bell admit to interfering in the business practise of Wholesale customers.

Had Bell been upfront and provided 30 days notice of intent to throttle Wholesale Customers, there would not be the public out-lash against Bell. The fight for an unthrottled Internet would have pressed forward and probably been resolved in a more civilized matter.

Where the CRTC is concern in their ruling of denying twice CAIP's request to order Bell to cease and desist throttling Wholesale customers, it definitely is a one-side ruling in favor of Bell Canada. The Commissioner's ruling now allows other Telecoms such as Rogers and Shaw to continue throttling their customers.

The CRTC has given Bell the right-of-way to continue to interfere with the business management of Wholesalers and their customers, to which Bell lays no claim. Generally speaking, large telecoms such as Bell and Rogers want to be the Gate Keeper. Once these large telecoms have you inside their domain, they want to secure the gate, so that entrance beyond the gate would be denied; as well, Bell doesn't want Wholesaler offering a superior service equal to that what Bell offer their subscribers, and in essence is attempting to put the smaller Wholesalers out of business to eliminate any form of competition.

Fundamentally, net neutrality is about equal access to the Internet. Carriers should not be permitted to use their market power to discriminate against competing applications or content. Just as telephone companies are not permitted to tell consumers who they can call or what they can say, broadband carriers should not be allowed to use their market power to control activity on line.

Wholesalers rent lines from Bell Canada. Wholesale customers are not Bell's property. Bell has no business meddling in the business affairs of Wholesale customers.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy

On the Plus Side...

When the Canadian government wants a US-style conduit from ISPs to their version of the NSA, eventually, they'll only have to deal with one ISP (not that that played into the CRTC's ruling, at all...).
--
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
DabberDan

join:2004-11-15
Gatineau, ON

Technical differences?

What are the technical differences of me saturating my line with HTTP download(s) vs. a P2P download(s)?

beatsnpieces

join:2007-12-17


1 edit

Re: Technical differences?

said by DabberDan See Profile :

What are the technical differences of me saturating my line with HTTP download(s) vs. a P2P download(s)?
P2P saturates the download AND upload while HTTP only saturates the downstream. That is my understanding of it anyhow.
DabberDan

join:2004-11-15
Gatineau, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..


1 edit

Re: Technical differences?

said by beatsnpieces See Profile :

said by DabberDan See Profile :

What are the technical differences of me saturating my line with HTTP download(s) vs. a P2P download(s)?
P2P saturates the download AND upload while HTTP only saturates the downstream. That is my understanding of it anyhow.
Okay... but if I want to be able to surf while doing P2P, I don't have a choice to limit the upstream, which I do. So, in theory, it only saturates the downstream.

How about the amount of connections/packets?

We got to put this in lamens terms to make this whole thing look even more absurd to the non-technical public.

Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Re: Technical differences?

said by DabberDan See Profile :

said by beatsnpieces See Profile :

said by DabberDan See Profile :

What are the technical differences of me saturating my line with HTTP download(s) vs. a P2P download(s)?
P2P saturates the download AND upload while HTTP only saturates the downstream. That is my understanding of it anyhow.
Okay... but if I want to be able to surf while doing P2P, I don't have a choice to limit the upstream, which I do. So, in theory, it only saturates the downstream.

How about the amount of connections/packets?

We got to put this in lamens terms to make this whole thing look even more absurd to the non-technical public.
The issue in addition to bandwidth usage is in the number of simultaneous connections. (sessions) An HTTP session may open several (3-5) connections, but they are closed relatively quickly.

However, a Bittorrent session floods an ISPs network with 100 (uTorrent's default value) sessions PER TORRENT and they are held open until the torrent session is done. Then of course, you have to add in the DHT sessions/connections and the users who think if they increase that limit to 6000 or so, it will help them download their torrents faster.
boast

join:2005-09-03
Miami, FL

Re: Technical differences?

so if everyone switched to usenet, ISPs would be happy?
devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH
Good write up on the tech differences here:

»CRTC Ruling or not, Bell's ignorance is the problem

Raff

@bell.ca

Re: Technical differences?

Thanks I appreciate the mention devnuller. Unfortunate, that in the other news item, people were apparently unwilling to consider my arguments. I must state right off the bat that throttling internet connections, be they Bell or Teksavvy customers, is NOT the solution. The only workable solution in my mind is to limit user CONNECTIONS, to reasonable levels, say no more than 40 at one time.

Limiting connections will reduce network loads considerably. As for the issue of DPI boxes, I don't wish to sound arrogant, but come on, Google monitors and stores EVERY bit of data you fling their way, and I don't hear you screaming bloody murder. Or what about Phorm? Except for a select group of DSL report members, it seems you have largely ignored that issue as well.

The business like tactics Bell has used are just that, BUSINESS tactics. As with all corporations, money is ALWAYS the bottom line issue, and as such a company will and does do everything in its power to garnish the largest profits it can.

As for you Harper nay-sayers, may I ask : What does Harper have to do with any of this? We are talking about the actions of a company formed and ruled by laws established YEARS before Harper was PM. The behavior of the CRTC is simply corrupt politics. You don't need to be a Conservative to be a corrupt politician (*cough* Federal sponsorship scandal anyone? *cough*). In the grand scope of Federal government, the issues of Bell vs Teksavvy are both petty and insignificant. With looming economic issues on the horizon, do you really expect the government to seriously deal with these issues? Harper or not, 'net neutrality is and for the foreseeable future on the back bench.

One last word. If you TRULY do not like the actions of your government, why in blazes are you complaining about it here? It is your responsibility, both to yourself and your country to take your thoughts and objections to your government. I'm getting mighty tired of this behind the back complaining, yet when you have the opportunity to have your say, you clam up and conform to the masses.

Put up or shut up as they say

Regards, and best wishes all,

Raff

andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico

While sorta true,I have 5 pc's running on my network for me,the wife and kids.If they are playing wow and it needs an update and it starts the entire house is down to 30k till its over or I kill that connection.

It doesnt matter what you have the number up/down set to. On bell's DPI if it shows p2p it's 30K and thats it.

Raff

@bell.ca

Re: Technical differences?

andyb, I don't wish to dismiss your experiences with Bell, but I wish to disagree. I've used p2p software in the past, I use it now, I also experience Bell throttling. During traffic shaping to my network, performance did decrease, and everything felt throttled. Here's the rub: it was not Bell. The reason my Internet performance dropped was due to my router. It simply could not handle such a large amount of traffic.

Your own explanation leads me to conclude the exact same situation is happening for you. Bell does not throttle game applications, at least from my experience, and several others I know of. What bell does throttle is p2p traffic, traffic that is encrypted, traffic on non standard ports around 40000~ and above, and VPN sessions.

It's interesting that once WoW is started, your Internet performance decrease. Might I suggest that this connection intensive game stresses your router considerably. One of the easiest solutions to test, and apply, is QoS (quality of service).

By telling your router to lower the priority to WoW and other games via QoS, you should notice a considerable increase in performance IF, and only if, your router is to blame. In the event that QoS does not have any impact on your situation, then I would stand corrected on the issue of bell throttling WoW.

I refer you to one of my previous posts as to why this happens and why your router is most likely the problem.

I wish you good luck solving your problem, and I hope this helped

Regards,
Raff
Shark_615

join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON

Re: Technical differences?

I didn't know they let you guys onto this site at Bell. They didn't when I was there or do you get a special pass due to your shill status?

jcan

@bell.ca

Re: Technical differences?

Testing to see if it says @bell.ca or @sympatico.ca...

Hmmm... It would seem all Bell Internet accounts show as @bell.ca, not just employees. I would assume you are assuming Raff is an employee? If so, perhaps things have changed at Bell...

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

said by beatsnpieces See Profile :

P2P saturates the download AND upload while HTTP only saturates the downstream. That is my understanding of it anyhow.
It's a combination of a few factors:

1) Spreading the traffic across several TCP connections (as a collective of many P2P clients, not just a single end node) can be slightly unfair with regards to other traffic using single TCP sessions.

2) With P2P more traffic is consumed than a straight HTTP download because you are uploading while downloading the content. Your role in the swarm causes your total bandwidth usage to be higher than just a straight download.

2) HTTP is a finite duration transfer, P2P approaches infinite. When you download something with HTTP, once you have the content the traffic is done. With P2P, not only do you upload while you are downloading, but if the client is left unattended it will continue seeding the content until the client is shutdown. This can lead to network utilization being several orders of magnitude greater than just a straight HTTP download of the same content.
DabberDan

join:2004-11-15
Gatineau, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..

Re: Technical differences?

said by espaeth See Profile :

said by beatsnpieces See Profile :

P2P saturates the download AND upload while HTTP only saturates the downstream. That is my understanding of it anyhow.
It's a combination of a few factors:

1) Spreading the traffic across several TCP connections (as a collective of many P2P clients, not just a single end node) can be slightly unfair with regards to other traffic using single TCP sessions.

2) With P2P more traffic is consumed than a straight HTTP download because you are uploading while downloading the content. Your role in the swarm causes your total bandwidth usage to be higher than just a straight download.

2) HTTP is a finite duration transfer, P2P approaches infinite. When you download something with HTTP, once you have the content the traffic is done. With P2P, not only do you upload while you are downloading, but if the client is left unattended it will continue seeding the content until the client is shutdown. This can lead to network utilization being several orders of magnitude greater than just a straight HTTP download of the same content.
Does the throttling to 30KBps actually limit any of these things?

I'm wondering if it actually physically limits sessions if you're only able to transfer at 30KBps or is it simply a deterrent?
romulusnr

join:2007-08-01
Federal Way, WA

Look no further than Parliament Hill

It baffles me why the Canadians have voted twice now for the Harper corporacratic government. While it's true that Canadian Conservatism makes Lincoln Chafee look like Ralph Reed, the CPC is still going to be the big-business government. There's a price to pay for basing your poll vote on long-since-passed irrelevant scandals instead of on actual governing principles, and this is just the latest example.
bobobird

join:2008-06-08

Re: Look no further than Parliament Hill

said by romulusnr See Profile :

It baffles me why the Canadians have voted twice now for the Harper corporacratic government. While it's true that Canadian Conservatism makes Lincoln Chafee look like Ralph Reed, the CPC is still going to be the big-business government. There's a price to pay for basing your poll vote on long-since-passed irrelevant scandals instead of on actual governing principles, and this is just the latest example.
Precisely.

Who is to blame for all this - ourselves...

Candoo3

join:2005-01-24
You could refer to it as "Same shit, different day" in the Great White North. I guess we've gotten too used to government repression.

tertech

join:2008-04-12
Ottawa, ON

said by romulusnr See Profile :

It baffles me why the Canadians have voted twice now for the Harper corporacratic government.
Did you actually look at our other choices?

In any case, the CRTC is not an elected body. It is an independent regulatory body that reports to Parliament through the Minister of Canadian Heritage. Now there's a powerful portfolio if I ever saw one.

Basically the CRTC is below the noise threshold in the government's daily business unless a large number of people care enough to let their displeasure be know to their members of Parliament. As it has been stated elsewhere, not many people either know what the throttling issue is all about or could care less.

Now if the CRTC banned Canadian Idol or Hockey Night in Canada, the government would topple.
surge

join:2008-01-08
Bancroft, ON

Actually if you look at the latest election results a majority of Canadians didn't vote for Harper. 62% of Canadians that voted, voted for someone other than Harper, but thanks to our electoral system (first past the post) it is possible to be elected the governing party and only represent the views of 5,208,793 Canadians.
I also agree that part of the problem lies with the CRTC and the judgment being made by former execs and cronies of the big corporations.

81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA

A good day inded

Time to put middle man out of business. Why would a company want to support other businesses when those business are direct competition. This was good ruling by Canadian regulators
--
i am not a lawyer but I do play one on the internet

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

Re: A good day inded

said by 81399672 See Profile :

Time to put middle man out of business. Why would a company want to support other businesses when those business are direct competition. This was good ruling by Canadian regulators
It seems like Canadians aren't addressing the real issue. One company is both the sole supplier to other companies, and competes with them. It should be forced to restructure to eliminate that conflict of interest. Focusing on anything else seems to miss the point.

Mark
cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON
·Wightman Telecom
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Re: A good day inded

Everybody write your mp, I did. Also a new thing on the horizon something good to look at just google it

BILL C-552

Bell and rogers are gonna lobby hard against it of course.
rosenqui
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Kanata, ON

said by 81399672 See Profile :

Why would a company want to support other businesses when those business are direct competition.
Therein lies the problem for Canadians. Bell does not *want* to support their wholesale customers, but the regulators have said that they must since Bell manages the last mile and had a regulation-supported monopoly on the last mile until relatively recently.

As taxpayers and consumers we'd be a lot better off if ownership and control of the last mile infrastructure were partitioned off into a separate company that sold the wholesale access to everyone. That's essentially what we have now, except that the relationship between the last mile portion of Bell and the retail portion (their Sympatico ISP) is nowhere near arms-length.
cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON
·Wightman Telecom
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Comments that are only acceptible?

Also did anyone notice what they are accepting comments on.

quote:
changes in bandwidth consumption that may lead to network congestion

Internet traffic management practices based on technical solutions or business models that are currently available or may be developed in the future, and

the impact of such practices on end-users.

This is more like a how much more efficaint can we get throttling implemented. Seems the CRTC is a total joke now.

Glen1
These Are The Good Ol' Days.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
·Bell Sympatico

The CRTC is looking for support to stop the throttling...

This fight is not limited to Bell and their throttling practices. It covers all forms of internet providers in Canada. The CRTC has come out and asked for input regarding this issue. If you are a Bell/Rogers/Videotron/Teksavvy/Telus "any" ISP customer in Canada and are being actively throttled then it is your chance to voice your opinion and tell the CRTC you don't want to be throttled and support your opinion with reasons. Take this as a challenge to every internet user in Canada. Now is the time to speak up and tell them how you feel about "throttling" as a whole. The discrimination argument was only the beginning and it was clearly not a case of one being throttled and the other not. Go to the CRTC site and find out how to voice your opinion. Create email messages and send to everyone in your address book and tell them the importance of their voices being heard. If the CRTC doesn't respond, it is time to change the laws.
--
My Canada includes Quebec.
Wireline2

join:2005-07-19
m4w3c6

Build a fibre to the house network

Although its costly, a fibre to the house "last mile" network would certainly bury both Bell and Rogers. Run as an "at cost" network leasable to anyone and it might work. Bell and Rogers might even lease lines! If its public access etc., municipalities would have a hard time denying right of way access to poles and/or ground rights.
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