Charter User Monitoring Plans Suspended 'Enhanced user experience' apparently not so enhanced.... Tipped by tstolze 
Last week Charter informed news outlets that their controversial trials of NebuAD user tracking technology were delayed due to technical glitches, but insisted they'd be moving forward with the project when the kinks were worked out. This week they tell Wired News that they're indefinitely freezing the project. Charter originally tried to convince consumers that the sale of their browsing habits for profit was an "enhanced user experience" akin to faster speeds. The company now doesn't seem so sure: We are not moving forward with the pilots at this time. We will continue to take a thoughtful, deliberate approach with the goal to ultimately structure an advertising service that enhances the Internet experience for our customers and addresses questions and concerns they’ve raised Despite not being the first ISP to use NebuAD, Charter's decision to implement the technology caught the mainstream media's attention, leading to consumer advocate complaints and the threat of Congressional investigation into whether NebuAD violates user privacy and wiretap laws. Last week a report by consumer groups Free Press and Public Knowledge highlighted how the system uses packet forgery and other controversial tricks.
|
 mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX | Customers brought up concerns? I find that highly unlikely since it is absolutely impossible to speak with ANYONE beyond level 1 customer service. | |
|  | | | Re: Customers brought up concerns? It didnt take much to see the backlash in the media. Oh, and if the level 1 people make enough noise the execs do hear it. Now that doesnt mean they do anything but it is heard. | |
| | | | Customers brought up concerns? Translation = Highly negative PR for Charter for selling subscriber browsing habit to the highest bidder. | |
| | | mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX | Re: Customers brought up concerns? Oh, I agree... but it's just funny watching Charter squirm trying to make it seem like they actually give a damn about their customers. | |
|
| | | I'm still trying to understand how Bresnan is allowed to have this in their production network; while companies like Charter and Comcast have effectively been stopped from deploying it. This is ridiculous.
»Bresnan actively intercepting ALL packets | |
|
| | Enhances my experience how??? And just how does having targeted adds enhance my experience?
I wait with baited breath for the answer to that one. All that does is make more work for AdBlock Plus. | |
| |  sbrookPremium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:4
 ·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: Enhances my experience how??? What has an ISP got to do with Ads? That's up to the content provider of the sites I visit, not the ISP that's delivering them. If they want to provide pages of ads on their own website, that's up to them, but don't touch the content being delivered from my content providers. | |
| | |  RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by sbrook:What has an ISP got to do with Ads? That's up to the content provider of the sites I visit, not the ISP that's delivering them. If they want to provide pages of ads on their own website, that's up to them, but don't touch the content being delivered from my content providers. Also the ISP is stealing from the Content Provider site since by swapping their own ads for the ones the Content Provider supplied, the Content Provider is no longer being paid for the ads they attempted to send. | |
| | | |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by RARPSL:Also the ISP is stealing from the Content Provider site since by swapping their own ads for the ones the Content Provider supplied, the Content Provider is no longer being paid for the ads they attempted to send. This is a common misconception, but one with some foundation.
In this case, they are not overlaying or replacing anyone else's ad buys -- according to NebuAd.
If you're on a NebuAd ISP and you surf to a page with one of NebuAd's ad-network partners on it, then you will see a targeted ad instead of a random one. The advertiser for the random ad will not be charged and the advertiser for the targeted ad will be charged a premium.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
| | | | | RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by funchords:said by RARPSL:Also the ISP is stealing from the Content Provider site since by swapping their own ads for the ones the Content Provider supplied, the Content Provider is no longer being paid for the ads they attempted to send. This is a common misconception, but one with some foundation. In this case, they are not overlaying or replacing anyone else's ad buys -- according to NebuAd. If you're on a NebuAd ISP and you surf to a page with one of NebuAd's ad-network partners on it, then you will see a targeted ad instead of a random one. The advertiser for the random ad will not be charged and the advertiser for the targeted ad will be charged a premium. OK. I attributed the "stealing from" to the wrong party in the process. Here is a revised analysis.
Content Provider 1 gets ads from Ad Provider 2 and is supplied with an Ad from Company 3 which it sends. It will be paid for serving this Ad (or it might be only if the ad is clicked - I forget). The page is sent to User 4 at ISP 5 (who intercepts the page and swaps in an Ad Provider 2 Ad from Company 6 (who gets charged a premium for replacing the Ad from Company 3 [who is still paying for the Ad even though it was never delivered).
Thus Ad provider is double-dipping since it is being paid to replace ads as well as being paid for feeding ads that never get displayed (since they were replaced in transit after being supplied and charged for at the Content Provider injection point). | |
| | | | | | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Enhances my experience how??? I really can't follow that without a whiteboard and some Ritalin, but I'll offer this instead --
What's to keep the Transit provider (e.g. XO, Level3, Abovenet, Cogent, etc.) from cutting its own deals, which cut into the ISP deals, and our datastreams get sold umpteen times?
This has to stop, now, completely, dead.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
| | | | | | | RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by funchords:I really can't follow that without a whiteboard and some Ritalin ... "Sorry about that" - Maxwell Smart
The Executive Summary is that the Content Provider is supplied with Ads to serve which are paid for by the Ad Client Companies (they pay so that for every X Ads served, theirs will be served Y times). When the ISP swaps Ad2 for Ad1 (due to being told to due to Targeting) the Ad Client is being charged for Ads that are not actually getting delivered (they get counted as being delivered by get hijacked/suppressed before getting delivered to the User's Browser). Thus the Ad Company is not only getting paid for Ads that never reach the User but also getting paid a premium for the Ads that get substituted for the suppressed Ads.
My explanation only documented the steps that are occurring when this scam happens. | |
| | | | | | | | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by RARPSL:the Content Provider is supplied with Ads to serve which are paid for by the Ad Client Companies (they pay so that for every X Ads served, theirs will be served Y times). When the ISP swaps Ad2 for Ad1 (due to being told to due to Targeting) the Ad Client is being charged for Ads that are not actually getting delivered (they get counted as being delivered by get hijacked/suppressed before getting delivered to the User's Browser). Thus the Ad Company is not only getting paid for Ads that never reach the User but also getting paid a premium for the Ads that get substituted for the suppressed Ads. According to THEM (famous last words), it's not the ISP swapping the ads but its the ad network upon detecting the NebuAd cookie. So, in theory (or at least in hope), the ads delivered will be counted correctly. All the ads are presented from the same ad networks.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
| | | | | | | | | RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by funchords:said by RARPSL:the Content Provider is supplied with Ads to serve which are paid for by the Ad Client Companies (they pay so that for every X Ads served, theirs will be served Y times). When the ISP swaps Ad2 for Ad1 (due to being told to due to Targeting) the Ad Client is being charged for Ads that are not actually getting delivered (they get counted as being delivered by get hijacked/suppressed before getting delivered to the User's Browser). Thus the Ad Company is not only getting paid for Ads that never reach the User but also getting paid a premium for the Ads that get substituted for the suppressed Ads. According to THEM (famous last words), it's not the ISP swapping the ads but its the ad network upon detecting the NebuAd cookie. So, in theory (or at least in hope), the ads delivered will be counted correctly. All the ads are presented from the same ad networks. OK - To be precise, I should have said "When the ISP receives Ad2 2 not Ad1 ...". This does not affect my main point of the page being sent with Ad 1 and arriving at the User's Browser with Ad2 when Ad 1 was paid for and counted as being served.
If the swapping code looks at the Ad that was there before it modified the HTML and decrements the counter for that Ad (so it will go back into the rotation as if it had not been given to a Content Provider to serve in the first place) then this is "fair" to the Ad Purchaser. I do not know the internals of the Ad Network's system so I can not state that this can be done. It would probably require that all the Ad Selection (and Monitoring) be done from one database so that the counting can be done. OTOH: I can see a setup where the Ads are spread over a number of databases (none of which share an Ad) so that if the swapping is done from a different database, the served times count correction can not be done unless the server talks to the server with the correct database. | |
| | | | | | | | | | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Enhances my experience how??? Here's the disconnect:
There is no ad swapping code. (According to them.)
(but I don't blame you for believing that there is, because there is ad-swapping history in a couple points in this company's history.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
| | | | | | | | | | RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by funchords:Here's the disconnect: There is no ad swapping code. (According to them.)(but I don't blame you for believing that there is, because there is ad-swapping history in a couple points in this company's history.) In that case where in the process does my web viewing history trigger a targeted as opposed to random ad? Are they saying that when an ad is selected to be sent me by the content provider, that the ad supplied is a targeted as opposed to random (rotation) ad and thus what ends up a at my browser is what the content provider originally sent? | |
| | | | | | | | | | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Enhances my experience how??? Yes, now you got it. And they can do this because NebuAd force loads cookies for its partner ad networks that identify you as a NebuAd profile when you visit that page. | |
|
| | | | | | Re: Enhances my experience how??? That is why AdBlock was invented. If they want to show me ads, then pay part of my ISP bill. | |
| | | |  FLengineerCCNA, CEH, MCSAPremium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL
1 edit | Re: Enhances my experience how??? The point is Adblock isn't working any harder with or without NebuAd. There will be a banner in that spot no matter what. In fact with NebuAd it will be easier for Adblock to catch it. | |
| | | | | | | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by FLengineer:The point is Adblock isn't working any harder with or without NebuAd. There will be a banner in that spot no matter what. In fact with NebuAd it will be easier for Adblock to catch it. NO! Blocking ads with AdBlock+ is NOT the point. It is not just a matter of targeted ads, but how the info to target ads is obtained. The POINT is NebuAd performs DPI on every packet you send and receive, stealing your privacy, and allowing third parties to sell your very personal profile to anyone with the bucks to pay for it, violating a host of computer privacy laws, wiretap laws and copyright laws in the process. You have no contractual relationship with NebuAd, no influence over their policies and procedures, no control over how they use your info, and, finally, no compensation to you for surrendering every last bit of your privacy. | |
| | | | | | FLengineerCCNA, CEH, MCSAPremium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL | Re: Enhances my experience how??? but AdBlock and number of ads IS THE POINT of this particular discussion. Scroll down and rant some more. | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Enhances my experience how??? said by FLengineer:but AdBlock and number of ads IS THE POINT of this particular discussion. Scroll down and rant some more. Afraid not. Re-read the thread topic, sport. | |
|
 Jodokast96Stupid people really piss me off.Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2 | It'll be back They'll just postpone it until the heat is off and then sneak it in later. Or just find something sneakier to use. | |
| | | | Re: It'll be back DING DING DING, WE HAVE A WINNAR!!!! | |
|
FLengineerCCNA, CEH, MCSAPremium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
·Bright House
| What info is sold? If the info sold is IP address and visited websites, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. As long as they aren't selling info like my address, age, and name. If my ISP could make money off of selling a list of sites an IP address visited then go for it, improve my service with the money you make. Notice I said "an IP address" not "a customer" that is the difference unless you pay extra for a static IP you don't own that IP address you was givin.
For those of you that are going to respond with "they won't use the money to improve your service" I suggest you go buy stock and submit your concerns as a stock holder instead of complaining about it. | |
| | | | Re: What info is sold? That's fine, until the information is given to a third party, and then it's out of Charter's control. So the next time your "unique anonymous ID" goes with you to an online store, guess what happens when you check out, your ID isn't so anonymous. Don't think for a moment that Nebuad hasn't figured this one out. These people are douchebags of the highest order, many of them came from spyware company Gator. It would be just like these people to give something away to you JUST for the purpose of matching your "anonymous hash" to your real identity.
THAT is the rub; Charter isn't providing any user-identifiable information, but that doesn't mean Nebuad won't get it through other means. And since these third parties owe you nothing, you can't control how it's used and you can't stop the dossier of surfing information from being collected.
Charter should look at all means to enhance shareholder value. But there is a point where it's detrimental to the company, and this scheme was crossing that point. Permitting a third-party of dubious ethics to collect this information about your customer base is a horrible way to make a buck.
I will not tolerate it. I will jump back to DSL if Charter changes their mind. | |
| | | FLengineerCCNA, CEH, MCSAPremium
join:2007-06-26
Leesburg, FL | Re: What info is sold? That online store would be liable for selling my info at that point not my ISP. | |
| | | | | | Re: What info is sold? said by FLengineer:That online store would be liable for selling my info at that point not my ISP. Liable to whom, and for how much???? Exactly! No penalty, no foul, no privacy...what dimwit shit-for-brains would willingly submit to a system guaranteed to bring them harm?
BTW, I wouldn't recommend buying stock in an ISP that implements NebuAd's profiling, data and privacy stealing. The likelihood is market forces will drive them out of business as customers become aware of the encroachment on their rights. Of course, should AT&T, Verizon and the large cablecos all jump on board NebuAd's bus, everyone will just be SCREWED! Hello proxy-land, encryption, VNC and surf-spoofing for every little thing we do on the internet. What a PITA! No, thank you very much! | |
|
| funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | said by FLengineer:If the info sold is IP address and visited websites, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. As long as they aren't selling info like my address, age, and name. The ISP isn't selling info like my address, age, and name.
They are, however, selling an unadulterated pipe to everything that you see and say on the Internet -- including the very words on this page.
Check out the video here: NebuAd CEO: "We know... ...we know... ...and we also know....
So while they don't get your billing record information from your ISP, they really kinda do -- as soon as you access your billing record online, they've got it! Now they say they don't store it -- and I have no reason to believe that they do or do not -- but do you really trust these guys with it?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
|
| | | | Re: A great opportunity to get some answers from Embarq. should be interesting, but I would be surprised if the service rep knows what the hell you are talking about. | |
|
mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX | Not enough If this "technology" replaces banner ads with one relating to a website category a person browses frequently... there are going to be a LOT of pr0n banner ads for Charter to put out  | |
| | | NebuAd = Gator??? I decided to read up a bit on NebuAd and came upon this from Wikipedia:
Some senior staff members of NebuAd used to work at ad company Claria Corporation (formerly, the Gator Corporation), famous for ad software known as Gator[25]. Both Claria and Nebuad are located in Redwood City, California[25]. The June 2006 creation[26] of nebuad.com coincides with timing of Claria's decision to shutdown[27] the Gator service. A press release stated, "Claria will exit out of the adware business by the end of the second quarter of 2006."
So it looks like Gator/Claria didn't really get out of the spyware business. They just reformed into a new company (with a clean slate for a reputation) and took the spyware concept to a new level. I wonder if they'll start suing people for calling NebuAd spyware like they did with Gator?
--
-Jason Levine
Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar. Shooting For A Cause
Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | |
| | | | | | | Re: NebuAd = Gator??? said by The Register :
These employees are: Scott Tavenner, Vice President of Business Development; Chuck Gilbert, Senior Product Manager; Mike Miller, Vice President of Ad Sales; Amy Auranicky, Director of Advertising Sales; and Jeanne Houwelingis, Vice President of Advertising Services.
Scott Tavenner and Mike Miller's bios appear on NebuAd's website. Scott Tavenner's bio makes reference to him being "an early pioneer in behavioral advertising" but no direct reference to Claria/Gator.
Mike Miller's call him "an online advertising industry veteran and early pioneer in behavioral advertising" and mentions that he "has directed successful marketing campaigns for companies" but again there is no direct mention of his Claria/Gator roots.
--
-Jason Levine
Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar. Shooting For A Cause
Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | |
|
| | What NebuAD can do For the folks worried about NebuAD selling their browsing history, that is only part of the issue. Yes, their hardware can capture that, but it can do a lot more than that. Remember, they're using deep packet inspection. Not only can they get the URLs you visit, they can get the content of the page, including any posts you might make to a discussion forum. But it goes further than that. Packets aren't simply carrying Web traffic. Do you use POP3 or IMAP to access e-mail? That can also be read, unless you have an encrypted connection. Are you listening to online radio or watching video? They can grab that content if they so choose. Are you uploading and downloading files, such as word processing docs or spreadsheets? They can capture those, too.
Basically, if the traffic isn't encrypted, they can see it. All of it.
Now, even if you trust NebuAD to do the right thing, having that box there can raise other issues. First, let's get the government spying one out of the way. If there's this box there at the gateway of your ISP that can monitor all the incoming and outgoing packets, it becomes very convenient to demand access to said box. Even if you believe the NSA is monitoring all traffic on the backbones, they aren't sharing that access wholesale to legitimate law enforcement agencies. However, with the NebuAD box there, any national, state, or local agency can go to court for access any time they like. And it becomes easy for politicians or police to demand that the box be set to flag any "suspicious" traffic. You know, to protect the children. Remember, the box is already looking at the content, and it's designed from the ground up to track your habits, so having it flag specific content becomes quite easy.
And searching for and flagging content isn't just for the government. Suppose you're a corporate lawyer worried about damaging information being posted online by a whistleblower. You can't get access to the site where the info is posted because it's located overseas. Up to now, that was a problem. But with this box, you just have to subpoena the data from the big national ISPs. Demand that they watch for and log traffic to that site, and you'll likely find your whistleblower. Even if the traffic was encrypted, you could demand that the data stream be captured for later analysis, then you can have a court order the defendant to turn over the decryption key. And even if this won't catch every single whistleblower, how many would think twice before making a post, wondering if their traffic was being monitored?
And it also becomes easy for the **AA to demand that the box be set to log any potentially-illegal downloads. Ditto for software companies looking for pirated software. And even if you never download this stuff, mistakes will happen, and once someone is branded a pirate by this supposedly infallible box, they'll almost have to prove they didn't do it.
And here's the best part. For a criminal, gaining access to such a box would be a gold mine of useful information. Not only would it be great for identity theft, but it could also be used to blackmail users, especially corporate users. And corporate espionage would be much easier, too. Sure, many companies secure their connections, but many smaller ones don't, especially smaller ones with less computer-savvy users. How many folks have sent sensitive info in e-mails, thinking that, since the message is intended for another user within the company, that it won't get sent out onto the Internet, never realizing that their mail server is located halfway across the country? And it isn't necessary to infect a single PC. Compromise that box, and you have access to all the ISP's traffic.
So if you think this NebuAD box is just about your Web surfing, think again. | |
| |
See 6 replies to this post | |
 CapinPetePremium
join:2002-12-23
West Palm Beach, FL | Whats the big deal with ads anyway? I don't understand people. The vast majority of you more than likely read print newspapers and/or magazines which contain ads. Does a version of AdBlock exist that removes ads from print materials? No, yet people still read them.
How do you people expect all these sites to stay afloat without ads? People bitch and moan when websites start going the subscription only route. People also bitch and moan when it's free but there are ads. Then they "show the rest of the world" how tough and smart they are by using programs like AdBlock to circumvent the "evil" advertising which keeps the site you love so much up and running.
It's people like this that expect everything to be free that will cause the eventual downfall of the internet. Not necessarily the downfall but definitely a reduction in quality content.
--
»www.thegng.org -- Adult Gaming Community (not necessarily mature =P) | |
| | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Whats the big deal with ads anyway? Very good point, CapinPete.
True story -- DSLReports has ads. Most Premium members don't read them, yet some are pretty good. Did you know there's T1 available for really pretty damned cheap? It's a current advertiser on DSLReports.
With me being in the Comcast fray, I can't tell you how many snotty responses I've gotten with, "well if you want dedicated service," ...(I don't)... " then pay thousands of dollars for it!"
We ought to be supporting our favorite sites by turning on the relevant, unobtrusive ads. At the same time, we ought to continue to block the ones that we never want to see again (including any pop-over, scroll over, etc. ads).
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
| | | | The big deal isn't ads. The big deal is how NebuAD targets them to you. Essentially, they're spying on your Internet usage to find out what you're doing online. The box they place at the ISP watches and records everything you do online and creates a record of your activities.
And you have no say in the matter as to whether you want this spying or not. Of course, some folks will say to change ISPs, but the problem is that the ISPs are doing this very quietly. Charter is only backing out because they got busted in a big way. If an ISP is going to do something like this, they have an obligation to clearly tell their subs exactly what they will be doing and not bury it in the microscopic print of their user agreement. | |
| | | | It's not about the ads, it's about how they use YOUR browsing history to target ads and how they GET that information used to target ads.
If the newspaper prints a separate edition for your neighborhood, that's targeted advertising. But what Nebuad wants to do is put a microphone in your house and listen to everything and then stand outside your home and put in ads based upon your conversations. They won't get permission to do this, and if you object, they won't stop listening, they just stop putting in the ads generated from the conversations. | |
|
| | nebuad alters web traffic This isn't just about ads. It's about altering traffic on the fly. Adding content to pages - including active content. This was documented recently in a detailed analysis at »www.freepress.net/files/NebuAd_Report.pdf
Who knows what this active content could do. Perhaps hijack existing ads in web page - just substitute charter's nebuad for one or more in the page and they get the revenue instead of the web page publisher who did the work to earn it.
This sort of invasive packet hacking is pretty bad in my opinion. For charter customers and potentially for the people who create web pages supported by advertising.
A lot bigger than just a few ads. A whole lot. | |
| | |  bAD
| |
|
| |
|
|
·
A great opportunity to get some answers from Embarq.
I receive a call from Embarq about every 60 Days. Their service representative asks me to switch from Comcast to Embarq's broadband service. The next time I receive a solicitation from Embarq, I will be happy to ask the service representative the following question: When will Embarq stop it's snooping on their customers browsing habits, with NebuAD's snooping equipment?
