 Duramax08To The Moon Premium Member join:2008-08-03 San Antonio, TX |
CompetitionAint it a bitch?  | |
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Re: CompetitionIt's a bitch when the muni providers don't play by the rules. | |
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Re: Competition1.) They had every chance to improve service preventing this place from even wanting to provide this service to begin with. 2.) They choose to invest in stopping this instead of investing in their network stopping the need for it. 3.) Rules or no rules the people voted on it and the government is there to serve the people. 4.) Consumers are not "owned" by these incumbents, especially when they are tax paying citizens that can change the rules to their favor if the want to. 5.) If the current incumbents dont like it, they can close up shop and move on. As a matter of fact I would even encourage them to do so. Let them put their assets/networks up for sale in these communities and stop servicing them all together. See who cares? | |
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to battleop
said by battleop:It's a bitch when the muni providers don't play by the rules. Rules? Comcast and CentryTel are not the poster children for following so-called big business "RULES". These greedy companies have LONG been overdue for some municipal payback, espeically in the southwest and western plains & mountain states! I hope they undercut both companies and put them out of business in that municiapality or it might spur them to do what they SHOULD have beeen doing decades ago.. UPGRADING THE DAMED NETWORK and making infrastructure upgrades as an investment in the future and not sit on their ass like a till of the hun with a dedicated monopoly/duopoly and all of a sudden act like the sky is falling because the government is sick and tired of hearing about consumer complaints! I'm also sick and tired of hearing from corporate appologists. When they do good I praise them.. when they do bad... they get raked over the coals, just like everyone else! | |
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Re: CompetitionIs there anyone more greedy than the government? Do you really think that they are in this for the good of the people?
What business are you in? If the government decided tomorrow that they were going to get in that business and do business at a loss by using your tax dollars subsidize the loss would you feel the same?
I have a HUGE problem with a government agency taking my tax dollars and creating a closed network in which they refuse to business with the local providers. If they were really interested in helping the people and not their pockets they would build OPEN muni fiber projects. | |
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whataname
Anon
2011-Nov-4 11:56 am
Re: CompetitionThis is actually a reasonabe position. Done as an open muni-fiber network that private ISPs can compete on, basically taking care of the infrastructure only.
This way you get increased competition, spur small business and innovation and encourage growth. Something like Utopia did, but hopefully with significantly less lawsuits trying to slam it into the ground. | |
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 |  |  |  |  Thaler Premium Member join:2004-02-02 Los Angeles, CA |
to battleop
said by battleop:I have a HUGE problem with a government agency taking my tax dollars and creating a closed network in which they refuse to business with the local providers. Even though the local providers clearly have no interest in doing business in the area? | |
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Re: CompetitionEvery single provider (not AT&T/Comcast size) in EPB's network area has made good faith efforts on multiple occasions to connect to EPB's publicly owned network. Each time EPB has refused to cooperate with these local companies.
For example I know of at least two providers who attempted to buy 100Mb circuits from EPB. At that time EPB had a street price of $2000/mo. They quoted one provider $5000/mo and another $7500/mo for 100MB plus installs in excess of $200,000. BOTH providers were in the downtown area and both were passed by EPB. Fiber was on the same pole that their electric came in the building.
Another example was another provider who was looking to get access to their customers. They knew they could not compete with EPB on bandwidth but they were looking to deliver other services like cloud, voice, and backup. When first approached EPB quoted this provider a rate that is 3 times their street price. Then several hours later the rate was raised again and then by the end of the day EPB said they would not sell the service at all to this provider. Note this was a RETAIL product that they were after and not wholesale.
These examples are just one muni project but many. How can these guys be for competition when they them selves are anti competitive? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  David Premium Member join:2002-05-30 Granite City, IL |
David
Premium Member
2011-Nov-4 4:06 pm
Re: CompetitionSo even a cell network wanting to increase capacity and coverage would get the same results assuming they connect back end to EPB fiber?
That kind of sucks if true, isn't that what the public wanted was competition? seems like just the opposite to me (again based on your example.) | |
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Re: CompetitionI don't know abut the cell carriers other than AT&T and Verizon are installing AT&T Metro E circuits at every tower they can right now.
"isn't that what the public wanted was competition?"
The public was not given a choice, there was no vote and there was never an outcry for the service. EPB has already increased our power rates which they promised they would not do. When it was time to use those reserves after the April storms they were low because money had been spent on fiber along with the $100 Million + in grant money for a "Smart Grid" and $200+ million in bonds. | |
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to battleop
What are the names of these companies/providers that were denied EPB service? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  mob (banned)On the next level.. join:2000-10-07 San Jose, CA |
mob (banned)
Member
2011-Nov-8 1:31 pm
Re: Competitionbattleop always breaks out the "poor companies, always being kept down by the big bad government" cry rag when it comes to a local government deciding to provide a beneficial service to residents. » Re: Yay socialism! | |
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 |  |  NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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to battleop
said by battleop:It's a bitch when the muni providers don't play by the rules. The only "rules" the Telecoms play buy are expending capital on favorable (to them) legislation. Although I don't count myself among those demanding it, there is a demand for higher speed Internet than the Telecoms are currently providing. But the cost of upgrading would mean lowering CEO salaries and benefits, and the profit margin. Most retail stores actually operate on an extremely thin profit margin, and the telecoms prefer to keep theirs fat. | |
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Re: CompetitionI am talking about Rules set by the FCC. One like LNP and some of the bullshit reasons they come up with to stall port outs and then they send in their sales teams to reterm the customer. | |
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 |  |  tobyTroy Mcclure join:2001-11-13 Seattle, WA |
to battleop
said by battleop:It's a bitch when the muni providers don't play by the rules. Its even worse when the monopoly phone providers have no intention of providing any service and still fight against others providing it. I'm sure other pay your school/fire/police taxes. Same thing. | |
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 |  |  Kommie2 (banned) join:2003-05-13 united state |
to battleop
said by battleop:It's a bitch when the muni providers don't play by the rules. Someone works for the Boradband Industry ? | |
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Re: CompetitionYep, but not for one of the mega huge carriers. | |
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 |  |  |  |  Kommie2 (banned) join:2003-05-13 united state |
Kommie2 (banned)
Member
2011-Nov-5 9:05 am
Re: Competitionsaid by battleop:Yep, but not for one of the mega huge carriers. What I understand is your worried about City-Owned Competition because your working for a private carrier that might be affected by this. | |
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to battleop
Comcast follow the rules? Century Link follow the rules? Are you kidding? For example, big corporations are supposed to pay 35% taxes (only on profits, mind you, not on income like people).
$-Millions Tax Year 2009
Comcast CenturyLink Profit 5262 813 Tax 802 154.8 Rate 0.152 0.19
That's a lower tax rate than people. And less than half (for Comcast) than they should be paying. Is that fair?
And in that referendum you are bitching about, neither you nor I could get away with making the kind of false statements (lies!) that they did and you know it. | |
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Re: CompetitionTry and port numbers from some of these munis in a timely manner. They are government owned and they believe that the rules don't apply to them so they don't follow the rules set aside by the FCC or PUC. It's funny how they can drag it out until just before it goes to arbitration and then they all the sudden release the number if the customer has not changed their mind. | |
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 ArrayListDevOps Premium Member join:2005-03-19 Mullica Hill, NJ |
just thinkif providing internet service is profitable for a business, why can't it be profitable for a government? I don't see why it couldn't be. Just get business minded people in there to manage it. | |
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whome123
Anon
2011-Nov-4 9:08 am
Re: just thinkDoesn't really need to turn a profit, just cover expenses. Our system of corporatism has failed, capitalism is nonexistent, so what is our alternative? | |
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 |  woody7 Premium Member join:2000-10-13 Torrance, CA |
to ArrayList
There are those on this site that would disagree and say that would give the govt an unfair advantage at the taxpayers cost. I see this as no different than a sports franchise getting it's stadium/arena subsidized by the taxpayers. Until lately you haven't heard much about that .There should be some law against them getting in the way. | |
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Ghandi
Anon
2011-Nov-4 9:31 am
Re: just thinkI can't wait until the local government starts putting up there own restraunts, retail stores, cafe's, car dealerships, and factories, then we'll have real competition. We should all be happy when the government competes against private industry, right? Seems like people only want this type of action when they think they have something to gain. This pandora's box should never be opened. | |
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whome123
Anon
2011-Nov-4 9:47 am
Re: just thinkThat is just sensationalist nonsense. For the most part the businesses you listed are EXTREMELY competitive and actually have a market.
The telco / cable industry is hosed because of a complicated mix of too much bad regulations and too few good ones.
Nothing to see here, move on. | |
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to Ghandi
The stupidity in what you say is at a new high.
All of those things you listed have lots of competition in just about every way. All of those things do not have nearly the prohibitive cost and barriers to entry that building a network does. All of those things do not involve the need for multiple carriers to tear up yards, streets, sidewalks, and neighborhoods to reach their customers.
Get a clue and the come back and make a valid argument. | |
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 |  |  |  woody7 Premium Member join:2000-10-13 Torrance, CA |
to Ghandi
No one goes out of their way to stifle a restaurant, retail stores (unless walmart)car dealer ships , and factories..................when the telcos can't deliver and the govt. steps in, I see no problem as long as they get voter approval. Deliver or get out of the way. | |
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sweet!Close to me and have been looking at moving up to Longmont for awhile now. | |
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 FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2011-Nov-4 10:18 am
What motivates starting up municipal fiber plans ?quote: The real problem, however, is that these projects (good, bad or otherwise) would never have been started if locals were happy with the level of service they were getting
I don't buy this as the key reason that these municipal fiber systems are started. Empire building by politicians & heads of public utilities that get to build and control these new systems and pad the payrolls with relatives and friends is much more likely the reason. Sure, dissatisfaction with a cable or telco company helps these municipal systems get some support. But the typical organization's desire to expand their domain and budgets and secure their positions is much more likely the reason for their being proposed. | |
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whome123
Anon
2011-Nov-4 11:20 am
Re: What motivates starting up municipal fiber plans ?said by FFH5:quote: The real problem, however, is that these projects (good, bad or otherwise) would never have been started if locals were happy with the level of service they were getting
I don't buy this as the key reason that these municipal fiber systems are started. Empire building by politicians & heads of public utilities that get to build and control these new systems and pad the payrolls with relatives and friends is much more likely the reason. Its funny, I thought you were describing Cox cable in Louisiana. Most large corporations already have this nasty habit of employing friends of friends as we call it. | |
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 |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA |
to FFH5
said by FFH5:Sure, dissatisfaction with a cable or telco company helps these municipal systems get some support. I wouldn't call it just some support when Comcast and CenturyLink outspent the supporters of the the referendum 60 to 1 and lost to a big majority anyway. That seems to be ample evidence that the voters of Longmont are more than a little dissatisfied with their current broadband options. Since when do corporations have a right to profit by not serving their customers needs. | |
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Colorado Comcast & CenturyLinkI am so glad to see these two go down in flames. CenturyLink in particular has demonstrated their incompetence on several occasions. Witness the following - » www.summitdaily.com/arti ··· ile=1055So where was the protected fiber ring? The last time this happened it was a stupid tree branch that knocked out most of Western Colorado's data circuits including data links between hospitals. The time has long passed for ALL basic fiber resources to be in the public domain with maintenance and operation bid out to private firms. Excessive screw ups are then easily and quickly taken care of by dumping the offending contract company. They way things work today, the end user has little or no say and often must endure bad service at inflated prices. | |
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Profit vs. Non-Profit, and other thoughtsIn the end the big difference between a government-operated system and a commercial one is that the government system is only obliged to satisfy its customers, while the commercial system is obliged to make profits for its shareholders, as well.
Unfortunately, commercial systems, like most American companies, these days, are mostly driven by shareholders and run by bean-counters. The customer often comes a distant second. Enter the municipal systems.
Random additional thoughts...
There's some misinformation going on here, btw. Some, perhaps many, of these municipal systems are funded by bond issues and designed to be self-sustaining afterward. They're not taxpayer-subsidized.
ISTM that if the commercial companies spent more of their time, energy and money making their product better and more affordable, rather than spending so much on advertising, lobbying and fighting battles against municipal initiatives, everybody'd be better-off and any lack of competition would become essentially a non-issue.
I'm stuck in a dualopoly situation, but, luckily, one of the two, Comcast, is offering what I want for the max I'm willing to pay and able to justify. Otherwise I might be pushing my town to consider a municipal system.
Jim | |
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 KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ |
Kearnstd
Premium Member
2011-Nov-4 3:26 pm
If the people vote yesto Muni-Fiber than no court should be able to stop it. I think even the laws that some areas have to prevent muni-fiber should be nullified if the people vote yes, since the law in such a case has no element in protecting people just the shareholders of a corporation who do not want to provide top quality service. | |
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 |  TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY 1 edit |
Good things happenYou may all recall Greybull, Wyoming put in a Muni Fiber system several years ago. Thanks to this state of the art system I get anywhere from 4 to 6 calls a day from call centers that have opened up shop there. Yes I am on the no call list but these calls are made for charities, polling firms, and political parties which are exempt from no call regulations. Looking up the spoofed, numbers and locations, I see some of these calls are for outfits with less then a sterling reputation. But for Greybull these call centers are providing jobs mostly for young adults, and in that part of Wyoming there is not much in the way of work available for this demographic. | |
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 dvd536as Mr. Pink as they come Premium Member join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ |
dvd536
Premium Member
2011-Nov-4 7:31 pm
Oh noes!Decent speeds at fair prices. . . HOW DARE THEY!  | |
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 Kommie2 (banned) join:2003-05-13 united state |
Kommie2 (banned)
Member
2011-Nov-4 11:11 pm
More Power to the Local Muni!If the people voted 60% in Favor for Socialism then that is their choice. I am tired of seeing working class people protecting corporations that do not give a damn about them. Hell just look at the Caps. Having Public Broadband would at least keep the caps in check. | |
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Re: More Power to the Local Muni!said by Kommie2:If the people voted 60% in Favor for Socialism then that is their choice. I am tired of seeing working class people protecting corporations that do not give a damn about them. Hell just look at the Caps. Having Public Broadband would at least keep the caps in check. Big businesses always tout the "free market capitalism" as long as they own a majority market share that can push any and all competitors out of business (the Fox news network commentators always tell HALF the storyline about capitalism & the true nature of big businesses such as the OIL industry, Telecom, Banks, etc).. in that sense it's not FREE MARKET, it's monopoly market capitalism they support and pursue (at all costs). The historical context was to establish primary providers for utility services so that infrastructure which has to run through and around public/private property doesn't get trashed (much) or too entangled to be of use to anybody. These rules of business put a PUBLIC TRUST in these utility companies that they would be fair in the prices charged and upgrade services in a prudent manner that would benefit the majority of their customers. Telcos & Cablecos lead by AT&T and Comcast have flouted these rules time and again only to be rewarded by government with more USF and public subsidy. The infrastructure rules for major cities are NOT a one size fits all approach for suburban & rural geographies! This is a misconception that all across the USA there should be only 1, MAYBE 2 carriers (the 1996 telecom reform act making Cablecos a phone/voip company turned into a nightmare of stagnation with respect to infrastructure upgrades all the while chewing down telco profits).. In major metro areas public & private property could withstand 3 or 4 carriers competing for customers. Even with all the TIER-1 ISPs who've run fiber throughout the country... we've gone from about 8-12 down to about 7 major companies who own the infrastructure that all bandwidth runs on in this country. There are many hubs that could split off muni fiber projects to a 3rd or 4th competitor. | |
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SECraft
Anon
2011-Nov-5 11:22 am
Still faces a bigger hurdle....And that is programming. There are dozens, if not hundreds of failed offerings by Munis for TV services, because of potential subscriber base alone. Networks like HBO, ESPN, and Fox just to name a few don't want to talk to you if you can't offer a significant subscriber base, and charge such high rates as it is, that it becomes financially unworkable for Munis anyway. | |
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