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Comcast Controversy Doesn't Help Sandvine Stock
Traffic shaping company goes from very hot, to not
by Karl Bode 04:33PM Friday Mar 07 2008 Tipped by funchords See Profile
Sandvine Corporation, whose traffic shaping hardware sits at the heart of the current Comcast P2P throttling controversy, was considered one of the tech-sector's hottest companies just last year. With their gear at the center of renewed network neutrality discussions, combined with the credit crunch and slowed earnings, the Globe and Mail reports that the company's stock dropped 42% to a new low of $1.55 on the Toronto Stock Exchange yesterday.
quote:

Two events, however, have suddenly changed that common wisdom, Mr. Misek said. The credit crunch is making it difficult for the telecom industry to refinance its debt...The second event is the political hot potato in Washington, D.C., of Internet neutrality. As Sandvine and rivals like Cisco Systems create new tools for managing networks, U.S. regulators and lawmakers want to ensure service providers don't slow or block traffic from competitors or high-volume users.
However, the worry that network neutrality will truly harm the company long term doesn't seem likely. Even under a potentially Democratic FCC, it's unlikely the FCC or Congress is ever going to prevent ISPs from using such gear to carefully manage traffic load or prioritize their own VoIP packets. In Comcast's case it's the way they're using this gear (forging TCP packets to throttle upstream P2P for all users) and how they initially denied the practice that got them into hot water.

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Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2

2 recommendations

yay sandvine

i hope they go out of business
haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

Re: yay sandvine

Out of business...that not enough, I hope the employees end up flipping burgers for the rest of their lives.

DHRacer
Tech Monkey

join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA

Re: yay sandvine

A gun is either a tool or a weapon, depending on whether it puts food on your table or a body in the morgue.

You going to tell me that Sam Colt should have spent the rest of his life flipping burgers, too? Some things are done for good reasons and wind up getting twisted by demented minds. That's no reason to hate the maker.

--
"No one will believe you solved this problem in one day! We've been working on it for months. Now, go act busy for a few weeks and I'll let you know when it's time to tell them." (R&D Supervisor, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing /3M Corp.)

SSX4life
Hello World
Premium
join:2004-02-13
kudos:3

2 edits

Re: yay sandvine

said by DHRacer:

A gun is either a tool or a weapon, depending on whether it puts food on your table or a body in the morgue.

You going to tell me that Sam Colt should have spent the rest of his life flipping burgers, too? Some things are done for good reasons and wind up getting twisted by demented minds. That's no reason to hate the maker.

They said the same thing about Mr. Nobel and the invention of dynamite and how when his fake death was reported everyone said FINALLY THANK GOD AND I HOPE HE ROTS IN HELL.

Look at World War I with the creation of chemical warfare and how standard chemists used their knowledge in killing insects into designing chemials that were used on humans

Look at World War II and the creation of the atomic bomb and how physicist's created an atomic bomb that killed and injured hundreds of thousands of individuals (innocent individuals mind you). This same technology can be used to power submarines and generate electricity for countless individuals.

Same thing can be said about copyright laws and how they were designed to protect the inventor. That doesn't give Disney the right to a mickey mouse law every 50 years to extend copyrights to 200+ years.

Same can be said about the RIAA / MPAA and how they were set up to protect the interests of those they represent, but instead they are now being sued by those very individuals because the RIAA / MPAA has become a corrupt entity.

Need I continue?

The fact that all of these individuals and companies invented something is not the issue. The issue at hand is human nature and greed can turn any device that was intended for good into harm.

Should Albert Einstein rot in hell for helping with the creation of a weapon that killed countless individuals? no

But the individual that CREATED or designed something should be placed in some responsibility for that which they market and allow others to implement.

This is exactly what happened in the Nuremberg trials after WWII. Did the leaders of the SS pull the trigger? no.... but they sure helped.

This is my point.

--ssx--
--
»www.google.com is your best friend... please use it before asking your question.

Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17

Re: yay sandvine

I can't believe some of you are comparing weapons of mass destruction to a piece of hardware that does QoS on the Internet, no different compared to many of your DSL/Cable routers do at home on your intranet today.

Ah, hyprocisy at it's best!

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO
caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

1 edit

Re: yay sandvine

I WANT MY P2P! TGIF
jarthur31

join:2006-04-14
Carlsbad, NM

Re: yay sandvine

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

aajs

@rogers.com
Do you work for Allot, Ellacoya (Arbor) or Cisco? All of these companies (and many more) sell equipment capable of detecting bittorrent and throttling it.

ISP's do not buy this equipment to spoil your fun; they buy it to make their networks more bearable when they are overloaded. Maybe, if ISPs are no longer allowed to use Sandvine equipment to mitigate the effects of congestion, they will increase the bandwidth of their networks instead; but do you think they'll do that for no extra charge?

funchords
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Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit

Re: yay sandvine

said by aajs :

ISP's do not buy this equipment to spoil your fun; they buy it to make their networks more bearable when they are overloaded. Maybe, if ISPs are no longer allowed to use Sandvine equipment to mitigate the effects of congestion, they will increase the bandwidth of their networks instead; but do you think they'll do that for no extra charge?
My goodness, my goodness.

In the 30 year history of the 'net, there's never been a year when demand did not increase.

How did we ever survive without secret, forged, injected packets?

Yeah, life is going to suck for a short time, as some ISPs have to now work doubly-hard and make the TWO YEARS of plant construction and upgrades that Sandvine allowed them to ignore. This won't hurt the MSOs, it hurts their customers. In a way, we're paying for their sin, not just once, but twice. Let's hope the FCC relieves Comcast of some of that 40-60% quarterly revenue growth and gives it back to their customers.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

2 edits

1 recommendation

QoS isn't what got Sandvine into trouble.

1. Their inventive use of forging or injecting reset packets violated the Internet Standards and had no business on the open Internet.

2. Not only did they allow customers to buy the product with the knowledge that they would use it in secret, they marketed it apparently promising their own non-disclosure as part of the deal. The marketing, in fact, often included the assurance that the interference would be transparent (invisible) to the end user.

3. In 2003/2004, their intention was to encourage P2P transfers to form within the walls of an ISP, resulting in a reduced number of active sessions going through an ISPs boundary gateway. It didn't slow uploads or downloads, instead it intelligently tried to reduce the amount flowing through transit/backbone gateways. By 2005, Sandvine's invention became a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections even if they never strayed from the ISPs network. (My testing with both Comcast and my analysis of tests performed on Cox demonstrated this fact.)

said by Deadpool0:

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
No, your home network products do not forge resets. Some corporate gateways do. In both cases, however, these are affecting behaviors on your (or your bosses') private property. Your private network is yours. If you were to send forgeries from your private network, rest assured Bell Sympatico would want to have a not-so-friendly discussion with you.

Comcast and other CATV and TelCo ISPs sell access to the Internet. They're not the edges, they're the middle. They're supposed to be neutral. They asked to be spared a bible of Network Neutrality regulations, and they promised to abide by a one-page four-point FCC policy statement, instead. A year later, Sandvine was installed at Comcast, in direct violation of that policy.

Edit: dates corrected from 1993-1995 to 2003-2005 -- thx lolerskaterz
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

lolerskatez

@rogers.com

Re: yay sandvine

uhmm. Sandvine didn't exist until 1999. Not sure how they were encouraging p2p in 1993/1994, or inventing a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections in 1995.

See »www.sandvine.com/about_us/default.asp

Year Founded: 2001

funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

Re: yay sandvine

Crap -- I often do that mistake. In that post, I meant 200? instead of 199?. Add 10 years to everything there.

DPI was not even a market segment in 199?

Thanks for pointing that out.

lolerskater

@rogers.com

Re: yay sandvine

To add one more interesting point to all of this. If comcast weren't scared to deploy the sandvine product in the critical network path, you wouldn't even know what was going on. Packets would slow down, and no one would be any wiser.

Instead, they put them in an offline situation (like most reporting software), and are required to use RST packets instead of just dropping packets outright.

I think you even identified this in your previous posts.

I am curious what happens when the RSTs stop being sent. What will everyone complain about then? There would be no packet forgery, just 'queueing'.

funchords
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kudos:6

1 edit

Re: yay sandvine

said by lolerskater :

I am curious what happens when the RSTs stop being sent. What will everyone complain about then? There would be no packet forgery, just 'queueing'.
Do you want to hear something funny -- they probably weren't too scared, they were too cheap. To install them inline would have required ordering a lot more.

Even on Comcast and pre-merger Adelphia, users knew something was going on. More than a year before my first message on this subject, users were questioning the unusual performance characteristics they were seeing and some had even questioned the RST packets. The only credit I can take in this manner is by coming up with a way to demonstrate it and to eliminate possible explanations until only the one remained.

As a result, Comcast has taught us a method to detect and prove ISP interference -- and it works even without overt evidence such as an RST packet.

Also, it taught the blogs and freedom advocates that even highly-paid high-echelon staff are fans of Network Neutrality and an open, free Internet. They despise their bosses' notions of fattening the bottom line by cheating the customer. And they're smart enough to anonymously expose it and even describe how it works.

Even so, the ISPs really are stupid enough to try this again. Between a public who is wary and watching, an FCC who is pissed about getting fooled, bloggers who love this story, and employees who work for the ISPs who actually are fans of the Internet -- they don't stand a chance.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
said by funchords:

QoS isn't what got Sandvine into trouble.

1. Their inventive use of forging or injecting reset packets violated the Internet Standards and had no business on the open Internet.

2. Not only did they allow customers to buy the product with the knowledge that they would use it in secret, they marketed it apparently promising their own non-disclosure as part of the deal. The marketing, in fact, often included the assurance that the interference would be transparent (invisible) to the end user.

3. In 1993/1994, their intention was to encourage P2P transfers to form within the walls of an ISP, resulting in a reduced number of active sessions going through an ISPs boundary gateway. It didn't slow uploads or downloads, instead it intelligently tried to reduce the amount flowing through transit/backbone gateways. By 1995, Sandvine's invention became a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections even if they never strayed from the ISPs network. (My testing with both Comcast and my analysis of tests performed on Cox demonstrated this fact.)

said by Deadpool0:

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
No, your home network products do not forge resets. Some corporate gateways do. In both cases, however, these are affecting behaviors on your (or your bosses') private property. Your private network is yours. If you were to send forgeries from your private network, rest assured Bell Sympatico would want to have a not-so-friendly discussion with you.

Comcast and other CATV and TelCo ISPs sell access to the Internet. They're not the edges, they're the middle. They're supposed to be neutral. They asked to be spared a bible of Network Neutrality regulations, and they promised to abide by a one-page four-point FCC policy statement, instead. A year later, Sandvine was installed at Comcast, in direct violation of that policy.
Sandvine is unfairly in trouble, IMO.

Their boxes don't have to forge packets, that's simply the design option Comcast chose to throttle P2P packets.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

Re: yay sandvine

I'll dispute whether you can throttle anything by breaking a connection and replacing it with nothing. A much wiser choice on their part would have been to simply mimick what a congested network would do and start randomly throwing away packets.

Once again, congestion is not a new problem, and the Internet is already built to handle it. There is nobody running around in a suit and tie visiting buyers with the advice of "don't buy anything -- there are at least 10 RFCs with the 'Internet Standard' label already explaining how to handle networking congestion."

The problem is that Sandvine perfected a method of performing TCP packet forgery, which was an awesome feat -- but worth little unless they could sell it. So, using P2P as a bogeyman, they convinced buyers that they had a new problem and that their solution was the solution.

Well, it wasn't a new problem.

Back in the early 1990s (and this time, I do have the decade correct), file transfers took up roughly the same percentages (40%-60%) of bandwidth use as it does now. User behavior hasn't changed, only the protocol has. Back then, the preeminent method was FTP. These days, its P2P.

The lesson: You can't throttle progress, nor should you try.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com
Disregard anything Deadpool says. He's paid by an isp north of the border that makes him say anything (true or untrue) sort of like a puppet with attachable strings.

Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17

1 recommendation

Re: yay sandvine

said by Bellundo :

Disregard anything Deadpool says. He's paid by an isp north of the border that makes him say anything (true or untrue) sort of like a puppet with attachable strings.
Riiiight...

I think my credentials in the Sympatico forum speak for themselves despite what some anonymous troll says.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
said by Bellundo :

Disregard anything Deadpool says. He's paid by an isp north of the border that makes him say anything (true or untrue) sort of like a puppet with attachable strings.
I appreciate being warned about the trolls, I know your intentions were good.

But with respect, I don't think Deadpool is trolling. Other than those things clearly recognizable as opinions, he's spoken with facts. Trolls (or shills) don't behave that way. They relate opinions as if they were immutable fact and fail to have an open mind in the other direction. He's also been a member here for only two weeks less than I have -- if someone is a jerk, that doesn't happen.

I think we both generally disagree opinion-wise, but based on my own experience, I know that it is unlikely that Sandvine's P2P Policy Enforcement is being used in a big way at a Telco. Based on the behavior reported by Rogers.ca customers, what they're seeing is not Sandvine-like behavior.

Don't ignore him, value and consider his different point of view and solicit his expertise to help you fill in the blanks.

You can't learn much of anything by only talking to those who agree with you.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

Sean8

join:2004-01-23
Toronto
Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.

funchords
Hello
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Yarmouth Port, MA
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1 edit

Re: yay sandvine

LOL! A non-disclosed conflict of interest. How very Sandvine-customer like.

((Okay, just kidding... I couldn't resist the cheap shot.))

Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

ReformCRTC
Support Your Independent ISP

join:2004-03-07
Canada

Re: yay sandvine

said by Deadpool0:

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
Bull biscuits.

Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
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Canada
kudos:17

Re: yay sandvine

said by ReformCRTC:

said by Deadpool0:

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
Bull biscuits.
If they were, I would admit that they were. I have no reason to lie or mis-lead anyone. Check out the Sympatico forum, you'll see.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

funchords
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2 edits

Re: yay sandvine

I haven't looked, but it doesn't make sense to me that Bell would use Sandvine in the same manner as the CATV ISPs did.

Sandvine has a lot to offer, but so do other equipment manufacturers. It was their superior packet forging technology (not just the RSTs but the whole redirection thing) that differentiates them. This is only faint praise, as they had no business conspiring with ISPs to secretly use it to cheat customers.

I don't know if this is the start of the death throes of Sandvine. More likely, I think this is the start of the death throes of DPI in the ISP space. And I'm 100% in favor of killing DPI on ISP and transit-provider networks.

DPI by law enforcement with a warrant or on private networks not for use by the public at large for Internet access is perfectly fine with me.

In what some might see as attempted stock manipulation, Sandvine announced before it reset revenue targets that it is really excited about its future in the wireless industry.

So -- the new frontier -- Is DPI, protocol discrimination, and packet forgery necessary for the success of wireless carriers? My guess is NO, but I want data. Unlike wireline services, where we find that throughput generally falls somewhere between 70-80% of the datarate, only 30-40% of the datarate on wireless networks results in useful throughput. Is there something inherent about certain protocols that would make that 30%-40% even worse?

The same providers Sandvine is chasing sell music and video downloads and services. How, then, do they justify buying Sandvine's technology to discriminate against protocols popular for carrying the same content.

Again -- I know the answer to this for wireline service. I only think I know the answer for wireless service, and not all wireless broadband is alike.

Now *I'M BABBLING*. LOL

--Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com
Rogers uses sandvine sympatico uses ellacoya. Hopefully Comcast will get sued to the nines as well as fined by the FCC. Ted i hope your day comes soon because i want to be there to see you pay payback billions.

Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17

Re: yay sandvine

said by Bellundo :

Rogers uses sandvine sympatico uses ellacoya. Hopefully Comcast will get sued to the nines as well as fined by the FCC. Ted i hope your day comes soon because i want to be there to see you pay payback billions.
Rogers uses Cisco, not Sandvine.

You're just full of good information tonight.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

james1

join:2001-02-26
said by Deadpool0:

Ah, hyprocisy at it's best!
Although I agree that it is silly to compare Sandvine with weapons of mass destruction, I really don't see how it's hypocritical to do so.
stevephl

join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO
You make some rather far reaching statements in your post. Scientist have been inventing things through out the ages that benefit man, some in ways we might not expect at first glance but to suggest that these people should be held responsible on any level for their inventions is mad, sounds like the rantings of a socialist. Your assertion that the two nuclear devices dropped on Japan towards the end of WWII only seemed to affect innocents is misplaced and simply wrong. You fail to note that the Japanese attacked the US without justification and without provocation,(I have family that died in that attack can you say the same?)that during the course of WWII the Japanese committed all manner of atrocities against the Koreans, the Chinese, Malays and the Filipino's not to mention the barbaric treatment of US prisoners of war. Dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan in the end saved many hundreds of thousands more people forestalling an invasion of mainland Japan. Also note that at the time we were ending this war through the use of nuclear technology the Japanese were in fact researching and working on their own nuclear weapon as were the Russians and Germans. Our decision to use nuclear bombs probably saved untold numbers of people on several continents.
Sometimes in order to secure the freedoms and security of people we need to take drastic actions such as war, but by the same measure those things used in limited war also benefit mankind and do so for many years. The benefits derived from harnessing the atoms in nuclear materials, chemistry, physics and the other scientist far out weight any negative use. Finally this is a legal company (Sandvine) making a legal product, providing jobs and and economy when has this been a bad thing? In the final analysis while you are just another American bashing socialist with an agenda companies like Sandvine are contributing to our economy providing necessary services, what are you providing?

james1

join:2001-02-26

Re: yay sandvine

I love how you justify the killing of civilians because of something that their armed forces did. That sounds familiar, oh yeah, it's what terrorists do.

Yes, SOME Japanese did horrible things during the war, so did some Americans, Canadians, Brits, Germans and prettymuch every country who has ever gone to war. If everyone followed your logic, we would all be dead.
stevephl

join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO

Re: yay sandvine

You obviously haven't a clue to what your talking about (babbling?) do your due diligence, do some research. The Japanese civilians were arming themselves for an invasion they were joining a totalitarian government military force. Some Japanese committed offenses? Gee maybe your public education wasn't so good after all. Go read about the atrocities committed by Japanese troops in Korea, especially China, Malaysia and even more so in the Philippines. Research the Bataan Death March in the Philippines where US and Canadian troops were routinely bayoneted, denied medical attention, food and rest. I have visited these places in person have you? Do you really have an understanding of what happened in WWII? I didn't think so. Our treatment of Japanese prisoners of war was very humane, we offered medical attention even when allied troops needed the care, we took very good care of these prisoners the same cannot be said for their side. Even liberal socialist scholars are in agreement that dropping the "Bombs" prevented even more blood shed and deaths. No one is innocent in war especially when it's your side that initiated the unprovoked sneak attack in the first place.
In the final analysis your logic is the the one that is flawed, you lack even a basic understanding of warfare and the cessation of hostilities. Try picking up some good quality history books and read, maybe instead of downloading porn, pirated music and video's you could read a few good books, might even learn something, how cool would that be?

•••••••

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com
Necessary services like manufacturing and selling crackpipes for crack smokers? That too i guess in your opinion would be a necessary service.

Chuckles0
Premium
join:2006-03-04
Saint Paul, MN
Why?
GPSrob

join:2007-05-21
said by haplo2112:

Out of business...that not enough, I hope the employees end up flipping burgers for the rest of their lives.
F'ing idiot. You sound like one of those anti-evolution fools that want to burn the scientists at the stake and take us back to the middle ages.

QoS is an imporant tool and very hard to implement at high data rates. It has a very necessary role in network management, despite the way it's being deployed by one particular ISP. These guys deserve credit for coming up with a system that can shape traffic at those speeds.
digitel

join:2002-10-02
Aurora, CO
That would be nice

guhuna
5149.5
Premium
join:2001-03-31
Antioch, CA

1 edit

1 recommendation

aww booo hooo

Click for full size
aww that just sucks doesn't it?

HAHAH you know they aint clapping now LMAO!!

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT
kudos:1

Re: aww booo hooo

lmao true

fw

join:2005-09-18

They're cheap now

Comcast will probably end up buying the company ...

nekkidtruth
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kudos:2
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Re: They're cheap now

said by fw:

Comcast will probably end up buying the company ...
Not with the net neutrality issues. Comcast won't touch them with a 10 foot pole.
--
Weeeeeee
WhaleSqueeze
Premium
join:2006-06-06
Philadelphia, PA

Sandvine

This device was never intended for anything good IMHO

Bellundo

@teksavvy.com

Something is more than seriously wrong for sandvine

I'll tell you when you see a company publicly state they're going to buyback shares then the share value drops 50 percent in the next two days something is more than seriously wrong. This sucker is going to zilch and fast.
»www.sandvine.com/news/default.asp