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join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL | The EFF All talk and little action. The only people that care what they think is BBReports. | |
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knightmb
Everybody Lies
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: The EFF said by supergirl  :All talk and little action. The only people that care what they think is BBReports. Many others care, but we are kind of at the mercy of the ISP. I guess yet another class action lawsuit by residential customers? Has anyone confirmed if this affects business customers, I haven't seen it yet and I know I would be a target with my BT client running 24/7 365 like it does. | |
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| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
 ·Comcast
| Re: The EFF said by knightmb :Many others care, but we are kind of at the mercy of the ISP.... that's exactly the point - my only choice of provider is comcast. My choices are put up with it or not have broadband.
there is no market competition to discipline this kind of behaviour. If customers could go to another provider, comcast might think twice about doing this.
the solution is market competition or regulation, neither of which is going to happen anytime soon, so suck it up and live with it. | |
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human1137
@sbc.com
| Re: The EFF I still, to this day, do not get you people. You say it yourselves......you do have a choice. keep the service, or don't. Both have consequences associated with them. I cannot wait for the day americans are no longer allowed to bitch just for the sake of bitching(pipe dream). | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ | Re: The EFF What does people having a choice have to do with what Comcast is doing? Nothing. | |
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human1137
@sbc.com
| Re: The EFF actually that is incorrect. it means everything. if they limit traffic that you request, & that is not something you want done with your connection......then you drop them as a provider, & find another one that gives you what you want....or do without. | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ | Re: The EFF No, it means nothing. Whether one chooses Comcast or another company has no bearing at all on Comcasts actions being wrong. I made my choice, I chose Verizon. Comcasts actions are still wrong. One has nothing to do with the other. Try again. | |
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greendragon
Premium
join:2003-09-20
Stewartville, MN
| said by human1137 :
I still, to this day, do not get you people. You say it yourselves......you do have a choice. keep the service, or don't. Both have consequences associated with them. I cannot wait for the day americans are no longer allowed to bitch just for the sake of bitching(pipe dream).
If I had to resources to build my own network I would do that, however, since I don't have the resources I am at mercy of the companies that provide these services.
I have two main choices in my area and have picked the better of the two, IMHO, but my current provider is far from perfect. I "bitch" all the time and sometimes things do get better, sometimes they don't. My point is that if everyone followed your pipe dream example, nothing would ever change for the greater good. | |
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human1137
@sbc.com
| Re: The EFF Actually if you truly understood the power of customers in a free market, you would see it is totally do-able, & the greater good could be achieved. If customers on the whole are unhappy with widgets & just stopped buying them(even if you only had one choice for a provider), that provider would have to adjust their business model or fail. | |
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digitalfreak
join:2005-12-09
49533 | Re: The EFF In a perfect world, your example would work. However, this is a far from perfect world. | |
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MisesAndHayek
@lotus911.com
| You have the mistaken impression that broadband access IS a free market. It's not. It's highly regulated. Comcast holds a government-granted monopoly or duopoly on broadband internet access in many areas, as granted and controlled by local and state municipal governments.
Some of these areas could be serviced by wireless access providers. Alas, this is also not a free market, as radio broadcast signals are regulated by the FCC. | |
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greendragon
Premium
join:2003-09-20
Stewartville, MN
| You sound like one of those "it's either black or white" people. While I agree with you to a certain extent, it is not possible for me to go without totally. I need "high speed" internet of some kind. I have high expectations for a lot of things in my life and if I waited until business caught up with my expectations then I'd still be without, while others surpassed me.
Life just isn't as black and white as you put it...
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Folding for our future!! | |
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human1137
@sbc.com
| Re: The EFF I apologize. not black & white, just going there to save time. But you have finally hit the nail on the head with something like this, or anything mega-corporations do. You "NEED" it.....effectively handing over the power of the customer to companies. Because people just cant do without it. They just don't know how they lived without it(& we don't need to cover the quality of life position, etc, etc). & that's where the invisible caps come from....the vague tos's....lawsuits to dead people downloading songs....driving a trailer grandma to go thor in some local office....because we hand our power over to them. this issue(& every other issue) would last one afternoon if the people took the power back. we've seen it.....this site, because of its members, wields some power in getting answers & companies to back peddle. now just imagine if every comcast customer got po'd | |
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| | | | Freezone
join:2000-09-29
Southfield, MI
| said by human1137 :
I cannot wait for the day americans are no longer allowed to bitch just for the sake of bitching(pipe dream).
The right to bitch is what it means to be an American. If your pipe dream were to come true, that would imply that major freedoms have been taken away. American bitching has lead to some great things. | |
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jgkolt
Premium
join:2004-02-21
Lakewood, OH
clubs: | I see you dont care until it affects you. I agree they should step up to the plate and tackle this before it gets too big.
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3 free for you/3 free for me: Investing Trades : PM Me | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| And what exactly do you want the EFF to do? Some battles are worth fighting in the courts and they have a history of doing so. Other battles would be pointless as there isn't anything legally wrong under current laws with what the other party is doing. That is the case here. Yes it does set a "dangerous precedent" (although I think "dangerous prescient" is a little too strong) about an ISP deliberatively stifling competition by forging communication packets. But I also believe that Comcast is a business and they somewhat have a right to protect their busienss interests.
The compromise that I would like to see is that an ISP would not have the right to negatively impact 3rd party traffic but they would be allowed to give priority to their own traffic. | |
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Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
clubs: | Whatever they do... People who use these services will find a way around it.
Cat and mouse continues. | |
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newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD
| So Comcast has assumed responsibility . . . for content on their network?
You could argue that, given recent revelations that Comcast is monitoring traffic and content, they have assumed responsibility for ALL content, legal or illegal.
A huge can of worms to open.
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Ö¿Ö
The Rules of Spam | Maryland's Newest Anti-Spam Law
Where are we going? And what's with the hand basket? | |
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| BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: So Comcast has assumed responsibility . . . said by newview :for content on their network? You could argue that, given recent revelations that Comcast is monitoring traffic and content, they have assumed responsibility for ALL content, legal or illegal. A huge can of worms to open. Now they use the excuse that they are doing it to protect their network from abuse , which to most seems to be a nobel cause , at least to the folks who try to justify $60 for net connection is fair considering the stuff they pull.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD
| Re: So Comcast has assumed responsibility . . . said by BosstonesOwn :Now they use the excuse that they are doing it to protect their network from abuse . . . All the while continuing to allow their spam zombies to rape the rest of the internet. Once again, by their action and inaction, they've chosen to cherry-pick the part of their TOS that benefits THEM and ignore those parts that cost them significant time and money.
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Ö¿Ö
The Rules of Spam | Maryland's Newest Anti-Spam Law
Where are we going? And what's with the hand basket? | |
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techjoe
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Schererville, IN
| Re: So Comcast has assumed responsibility . . . said by newview :said by BosstonesOwn :Now they use the excuse that they are doing it to protect their network from abuse . . . All the while continuing to allow their spam zombies to rape the rest of the internet. Once again, by their action and inaction, they've chosen to cherry-pick the part of their TOS that benefits THEM and ignore those parts that cost them significant time and money. I'll usually refrain from wasting my breath (keystrokes) on these news threads these days but ... well said!!
Let's start suing Comcast for every infection that comes from "their" network. What, you can't throw darts (RST) at the passing zombie/ddos/etc traffic but you can BT? Yeah but no. I'm not really an IT-Sec geared person but if a few grand in hardware/software and some research can obliterate "average" bot-style traffic on a large enterprise-scale WAN situation I'd imagine Comcast could manage (even if they need to get a consultant in to do it ... HA!). But back to the lawsuits, I'm assuming p2p "warez" has generated enough legal heat to get them to start acting "pro-actively" against such traffic.
So the fact that 50-Cent's new single got leaked and passed around for free is much more troubling than Grandma NiceLady had her PC infected and had to take it in to have it repaired (which costs MUCH more than music/mp3s,etc for the average folk). Yes, that makes a whole lot of sense. But wait: Grandma NiceLady can't throw down gobs of money just to make their case like the production outfits and others with a stake have been doing re: pirated material.
Pirating data is a problem, I will be amongst the first to tell ya that. BUT ... Let's take care of the bigger problems first, such as aiding in child abuse cases, (real) terrorism issues, hacking/ddos/etc, and other illegal acts first that spew from these networks. Ya know, actual criminal offenses that are worth the paper the charges are written on.
/soapbox
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www.clanc.cc | |
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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000
| P2P traffic is very disruptive to network traffic. I read a report recently where a node with more than enough bandwidth for 500 users can be destroyed by 10 seeding torrent users.
Of course the typical BBR user response is to add more bandwidth but they will just soak up the extra bandwidth.
Maybe if Torrents were not so disruptive to networks they would not have to resort to these kinds of things. | |
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Inssomniak
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
| Re: So Comcast has assumed responsibility . . . I have to agree here, its VERY disruptive to a network, I run a small WISP, with no choice to limit/block p2p, as a single user managed to all but destroy my network, if it wasnt so disruptive, Id allow it! I personally dont care what a user does, but if it affects my network (spam, virus, p2p) they get cut off! Its my network and I can! | |
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Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | said by battleop :I read a report recently where a node with more than enough bandwidth for 500 users can be destroyed by 10 seeding torrent users. Those 10 users are using a maximum of what, 10mbs of bandwidth? If there is enough bandwidth to the node, there should be no problem. Adding more bandwidth won't cause them to use anymore because they are already maxed out. | |
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| jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
 ·ViaTalk
| said by newview :You could argue that, given recent revelations that Comcast is monitoring traffic and content, they have assumed responsibility for ALL content, legal or illegal. You could, but it would make you look REALLY silly and naive. | |
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| bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA | On the contrary, they are only looking at attributes of data, not content of data. Assumption of responsibility is nothing but a red herring. | |
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massysett
join:2006-01-04
Silver Spring, MD
| Yawn The main effect of Comcast's doings is that you can't seed torrents. Read the terms of service. Running servers isn't allowed. The "innovators" that EFF is so concerned about should grow up and pay for hosting.
This is all a bunch of hoopla over nothing. | |
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Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA
| Re: Yawn said by massysett :The main effect of Comcast's doings is that you can't seed torrents. Read the terms of service. Running servers isn't allowed. The "innovators" that EFF is so concerned about should grow up and pay for hosting. This is all a bunch of hoopla over nothing. Its not the specifics here that are in question..its the precedent it is setting.
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»davescustompc.com | |
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gatorkram
Spelling and Grammer impared
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
clubs:
·Embarq
·linode
| said by massysett :The main effect of Comcast's doings is that you can't seed torrents. Read the terms of service. Running servers isn't allowed. The "innovators" that EFF is so concerned about should grow up and pay for hosting. This is all a bunch of hoopla over nothing. Why do so many people support the industry on these issues?
Just because they put a bunch of words in their TOS, doesn't make it fair.
If I pay for a service, and then I pay for another service to run over the other service, why should one be able to degrade the other? Just because this isn't VOIP we are talking about, it doesn't make it any less valid.
As for the people who say the ISP needs to protect their network, just remember, without the consumer, there is no money for said network, so think about it again, on whos network it really is.
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Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240 | |
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| | jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk
| Re: Yawn said by gatorkram : Just because they put a bunch of words in their TOS, doesn't make it fair. Errr... yes, that's precisely what it means. Comcast offers a Service in the marketplace for a set price. The Terms of that Service are clearly spelled out so you know what you are getting for that set price.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't "fair". Grow up. | |
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anony101
@comcast.net
| Re: Yawn said by jester121 :said by gatorkram : Just because they put a bunch of words in their TOS, doesn't make it fair. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't "fair". Grow up. This is not a matter of like or dislike. It's a matter of fair or unfair to the consumer. Unfair contracts or clauses within contracts are called unconscionable in the legal field and will not be enforced by the courts.
ATT Wireless had a clause in their contract which said people who signed for service were not allowed to sue ATT. Guess what? ATT was not able to enforce it. Why? Because you have the basic legal right to sue.
It's a matter of time before Comcast is sued and forced to shape up. | |
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| emptywig
Huh? What?
Premium
join:2002-08-05
Pasadena, TX
| That's not the main effect. Its only one effect.
I'm just trying to stream some legit, paid-for video over the connection I PAID FOR and Comcast's crap is screwing that up too. I can't watch for more than a few minutes at a time before my connection gets reset.
QUIT F*&KING WITH OUR TRAFFIC.
wig
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Sometimes a paradox is just a paradox | |
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Ted Bundy
| Using Lotus Notes has NOTHING to do with Torrents. They are traffic shaping this also. Tele-commuters are affected by this. Was it not broadband that was supposed to help tele-commuters? | |
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anony101
@comcast.net
| said by massysett :The main effect of Comcast's doings is that you can't seed torrents. Read the terms of service. Running servers isn't allowed. The "innovators" that EFF is so concerned about should grow up and pay for hosting. This is all a bunch of hoopla over nothing. Will you give them the money??
The guys who founded Hewlett Packard, Sun Microsystems, Apple Computer all did it from their home garage. | |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | Comcast is forging packets It is my understanding that this form of traffic shaping involves the forging of packets such that it looks like I am sending the packet with the RST flag set.
As far as I'm concerned, this should be illegal. | |
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koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
| Re: Comcast is forging packets There's a pair of injected (forged) packets; one going to the peer with the src/dst forged and TCP RST set, and the other going to the server with the src/dst forged and TCP RST set.
Both ends of the connection receive the packets -- that is to say, the Torrent server (or other peer, if P2P) will see the forged RST as well.
The EFF's statement sums up, in a nice way, what I've been saying about this for quite some time. It does set a very dangerous precedent, and it *completely* destroys the guaranteed stateful nature of TCP.
I'm still baffled why no reporter has asked Vint Cerf his (personal, not professional-at-Google) opinion on this matter. | |
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| ossito16
join:2004-07-31
Whiting, IN
·RCN CABLE
| said by jjoshua :As far as I'm concerned, this should be illegal. I agree. I don't care what the CC fanboys (as another poster called them) have to say about TOS. These ISP's are becoming to be no more different than China and all the internet blocking they do. At least I know ahead of time what to expect from China. Comcast, Rogers, and the others do it in a sneaky manner. The only reason our ISP's do it here is because they don't want to spend money on expanding & improving capacity. When it was analog cable & internet with 5mbps\384kbps there was plenty of room for everyone. Now with HiDef cable, phone, and 20mbps\5mbps internet they want to squeeze all this information over the same pipes. It seems the only way to do that is to limit what we do with the internet side of things. So Comcast & others at least be honest with why you are hacking your customers internet traffic. Where does it stop? If you get upset about the negativity you receive on particular websites (DslReports) will you block the traffic of certain users and only let your 'fanboys' cheer for you. At least the Comcast, Rogers, & Verizon company colors already match the red in the Chinese Flag. | |
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ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN
·Comcast
| lol I like how all the CC fanboys keep saying ZoMg! Its against the TOS! They SHOULD BE DOING IT.
When in all reality CC is forging packets, denial of service attack anybody? Hell it might even be illegal, and then CC lies to their customers about it..Yea..REALLY good company.
I might just have to change my review of CC, this shit is getting on my nerves big time.
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"I am the worst president in US history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
2 edits | Too funny. We had this conversation over in a few Lotus community blogs a month or two ago.
For some reason Comcast's efforts randomly block port 1352 which is the standard (and very well known) port Notes uses to get back to a Domino server.
I don't remember if being on VPN makes any difference or not, but I seem to recall it did.
Edit:
An update blog post by Kevin Kanarski on the topic:
»kkanarski.blogspot.com/2007/10/c···e-2.html
We started getting reports from some of our users last week that large e-mail transfers via Lotus Notes were once again working on the Comcast network. I did some testing this weekend and every upload was successful.
So it would seem the filtering, at least for Notes in the Chicago area, has been lifted by Comcast. There is no telling if this is permanent since Comcast denies ever doing this in the first place but I will be watching it.
K.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC | Re: Too funny. I'm curious, would switching to that port bypass the filtering in any way? | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Too funny. said by DataDoc :I'm curious, would switching to that port bypass the filtering in any way? Good question. Not sure if that's been tried or not. | |
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JasonD
@comcast.net
| It's their network! and they can so anything they please with it. end of story. what comcast is doing is not that big a deal in any case as bittorrent downloads aren't affected. But if you can't handle it, LEAVE! it's that simple. i know some of us have a single broadband choice, but there's always dialup. | |
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See 10 replies to this post |
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karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..
| What's to stop them from blocking FTP? I use FTP to UPLOAD files? What's to stop them from blocking that too? What about if I use IRC? I send files over IRC? They could block that too.
Comcast is a bunch of thieves. They 'claim' to be doing it to 'protect' their network, but the reality is they are doing it to CONTROL you.
We PAID for an INTERNET CONNECTION. We DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR AOL. We EXPECT to get an INTERNET CONNECTION. That means, I can do WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT, WHERE I WANT, with WHOMEVER I WANT. Comcast have a problem with that? The solution is SIMPLE. DON'T SELL WHAT YOU CAN'T PROVIDE. If that means they will charge $500.00 for a 10/1 connection, then so be it. If that means the $60.00 tier is only 1/128, then so be it.
Comcast wants to take your money, and not provide any services. That's how companies make the most money. Provide the LEAST amount of service at the GREATEST price they can. Problem with that, when you are a monopoly, you WILL provide the LEAST Service at the greatest price, because there is no competiton.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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See 6 replies to this post |
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MJRudzik
join:2002-01-13
Independence, MO
| I know this is picky but.... I have no problem with any ISP saying what is and is not allowed on a connection they effectively lease to a customer as long as they state that upfront and don't use a questionable means to do so. In Comcast's case they need to be forthcoming and own this traffic shaping. Even with this admission they are still exposing to the light of day. They also need to stop the particular method by which they are doing it. IMO forging packets is dishonest and should be trated like any other forgery. However simply being sure that a given protocol is throttled to a given percentage of network bandwidth is fine. | |
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| axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: I know this is picky but.... You can tell by their methods that this is something they don't want people to know about. It's negligence if they buy this thing and put it on their network not knowing how it works. When people tell them and they deny it, that's just lying.
They're hoping people will blame the "unreliable" nature of the internet, when they are the ones contributing to it. | |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Joost? Uhm... kinda looks like Joost is doing ok here(both ways), no? | |
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modemslayer
join:2003-12-11
Spokane, WA | All uploads? I haven't run Wireshark yet to prove it, but I believe that CC is using Sandvine on other protocols too. I've had several PC Anywhere upload (it's only upload) transfers mysteriously drop connection 30 minutes (almost to the second) into them. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Name that tune... In one packet...unless Comcast changes it.
Look the thing is they should just man up and be honest about what they're doing. Honestly I am kinda shocked they haven't just said they're doing it to help thwart piracy, just to shift the focus off of them.
I don't have a problem with shaping per se, and folks use things like Packteer to do that inside their own networks all day. The issue is lying about it, and doing their usual of treating customers like crap in the process.
The fact is they're creating a problem here, and it happens on both business and residential connections (so none of that "get a business class los" rhetoric).
If they're going to implement this stuff then they have an obligation to their customers to do it properly, and that means when they're called out on the collateral damage it causes, Comcast should take some action to review and fix it.
I know some folks within IBM are taking them to task on the Notes issue, and I hear it has been resolved in some areas, but that's spotty at best.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Angus the IT Chap | |
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| JerryTongue
join:2003-04-01
Auburn, WA | Re: Name that tune... I would think if they didnt want you to send something over a line just block all together instead of picking through the TCP packets, something seems not legal about that | |
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| w1zard
join:2001-12-22
Paradise, PA | They are being underhanded and shady about so that they don't lose people who DO have a choice in isp's. | |
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| bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA | It should be noted that I use Notes all the time from home and haven't had any problems whatsoever. | |
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schmol
join:2001-12-26
Windsor, PA
| Other uploading.... Anyone that has Comcast having issues uploading pictures to legit webhosting sites? For the past couple of months, I haven't been able to upload anything(or at least it takes a long time)to my photobucket and myspace accounts. I always keep getting a uploading error.
I have succesfully uploaded the same pictures using my aircard off my laptop... | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ | heres an innovation how about beefing up your network instead of crippling services!
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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| bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| Re: heres an innovation Folks always have options. Generally, where folks say they don't what they really mean is that they don't want to pay the price for what they want. In most places, you can get two, three or more suppliers to provide you fractional T1 service, with unrestricted Internet access, to your property, IF you're willing and able to pay the price. The fact that the vast majority of consumers are maniacally focused on keeping their costs low prompts businesses to offer consumers the worst of the available service offerings.
The real answer is to throw the bums out of your state legislators, if they're unwilling to allow ANY adequately capitalized business in to provide you broadband services, and throw the bums out of your local governments if they put any barriers in the way of such businesses building their facilities within the town. (The extortion some towns get away with, in establishing cable television/telephone/Internet franchises is one of the MAIN reasons why YOU don't have as many choices as you'd like.) These people are supposed to be working for you, so THEY are the ones to blame. | |
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Comcast Traffic Shaping Impacts Gnutella, Lotus Notes?
