Cox Deploying SDV In order to meet HD demand... Tipped by Karl Bode 
In between now and DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades, cable operators are going to have to deploy a number of bandwidth saving tricks in order to manage capacity and meet HD and broadband bandwidth demand. One solution is switched digital video technology (SDV), which frees up bandwidth on cable systems by delivering fewer channels to the cable-box, keeping the rest waiting at the edge router. Cox says they're now deploying the technology in their Northern Virginia market and will be upgrading other markets later this year. "BigBand’s open SDV solution can substantially reduce capacity limits that constrain HDTV delivery on existing cable networks, making it possible to offer a virtually unlimited amount of HDTV and other programming with a finite amount of capacity." Cox joins Time Warner Cable and Cablevision in testing the BigBand Networks SDV solution, while Comcast continues to tinker with various SDV implementations. TiVo has expressed some concern that the switch to SDV could disrupt third party DVR services that rely on CableCARDs.
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 | | DOCSIS 3.0 DOCSIS 3.0 won't help in the video side so if they having problems right now with capacity they better speed up full fiber development
DOCSIS 3.0 = affects internet only correct ? | |
|  | | | Re: DOCSIS 3.0 They didn't really imply that DOCSIS 3.0 would help video.
What they're implying, that is to increase downstream bandwidth to customers, before DOCSIS 3.0, they'll have to use up channels in the spectrum to deliver more DOCSIS 1.1/2.0 downstreams to load balance downstreams.
Some cable companies use more than one DOCSIS downstream channel to deliver more bandwidth to areas that are overloaded with customers.
By going to SDV, they move unused channels off of dedicated QAMs and put them on SDV QAMs. Thus freeing up channels to add more downstreams for broadband, as well as add more HD channels. | |
| | | Reviews:
 ·Comcast
| Re: DOCSIS 3.0 What happens when they are using all the channels ? Do we get an error message saying that they can't get the channel to us yet ?
I can really see if there is a diverse city that this may happen. Wonder what happens if a DVR needs to go out and record a channel and there is no stream for it.
So many questions that never get real answers from these folks. They need to bring more capacity Verizon is doing it , I hope they don't think it's going to be any different for them.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
 ·Comcast Digital ..
| Re: DOCSIS 3.0 With this tech and which channels are broadcast and which channels are SDV is highly dependent on the area. They will have to look at the demographics and put the statistically lower use channels into SDV. Yes, this may mean that a channel may not be available if the system is not setup correctly. I doubt they would go too far in putting too much in SDV otherwise they would lose customers. The shows will be held at the edge router so it is not like the entire Boston area will be sharing the SDV bandwidth. It will be closer to the node, so that almost everyone on the node will need to be watching a different channel on SDV. They all would need to be different channels as once one person in a given multicast group starts watching a channel any number of people will be able to start watching that channel and no more SDV bandwidth will be used. | |
| | | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: DOCSIS 3.0 said by reelbigfish:With this tech and which channels are broadcast and which channels are SDV is highly dependent on the area. They will have to look at the demographics and put the statistically lower use channels into SDV. Yes, this may mean that a channel may not be available if the system is not setup correctly. I doubt they would go too far in putting too much in SDV otherwise they would lose customers. The shows will be held at the edge router so it is not like the entire Boston area will be sharing the SDV bandwidth. It will be closer to the node, so that almost everyone on the node will need to be watching a different channel on SDV. They all would need to be different channels as once one person in a given multicast group starts watching a channel any number of people will be able to start watching that channel and no more SDV bandwidth will be used. I understand that , but what I am saying is what happens if all the SDV channels are in use and a dvr calls out for a channel ? Does it get precedence since it's a dvr ? I mean this could be another tipping point for some customers.
Me personally I am done with Comcast, I am waiting on a line test from covad for a dsl pair and dish network is scheduling an install for me soon.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | |  major marcoRes Firma Mitescere NescitPremium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA | said by BosstonesOwn:What happens when they are using all the channels ? Do we get an error message saying that they can't get the channel to us yet ? This is already happening in Orange County, CA. You don't get an error message, the channel just doesn't load. It sits there on a solid colored screen and message reads "Channel not loaded."
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The Toll
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| | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Actually, DOCSIS 3.0 is being used for video products. This has been discussed internally for several years... Comcast was talking IPTV before I even heard phone doing it. The idea was to give every home 100 or 200MB of BW which would serve Voice Video and Data.
To be honest, they are playing all avenues and see which one plays best.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
| | | | | | Re: DOCSIS 3.0 That seems kind of silly, since coax already delivers well more than 100 to 200mbit of data right now.
It's not like DSL providers doing IPTV, Broadband, and Phone over the same wires where they're limited to that bandwidth.
Coax right now can deliver ~40mbit per 6MHz channel.
Why would they cut down on the amount of data a home can receive right now? That's not going to save them any bandwidth, that's just going to degrade service.
The most IPTV in a cable system will be used for is VOD. Unless they're going to try to sell IPTV to people with FIOS or DSL that don't buy the TV service from their current provider.
Delivering channels over IPTV isn't going to save a cable company anymore bandwidth over using QAM to deliver TV. And in fact, it would cost them more in equipment, since they'd have to swap customer boxes to IPTV boxes instead of QAM boxes. Wouldn't make sense. | |
| | | | |  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | Re: DOCSIS 3.0 said by smcallah:That seems kind of silly, since coax already delivers well more than 100 to 200mbit of data right now. Hrmmmph. cox cant even deliver the 12mbps i pay for now.
*sigh* bonded channels are only going to enable providers to load nodes even heavier!
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
| | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Did you give your post much thought before you sent it? or.. what?
If they can stream a few hundred MB to each home, how is that silly? If each home has that BW, they stream channels to each home, it's unlimited channel capacity.
You said: "The most IPTV in a cable system will be used for is VOD." Cite your source.. I did. My information comes first hand.. and yours...?
Honestly, your post make no sense.. I'm done.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
| | | | | | | | Re: DOCSIS 3.0 said by fiberguy:Did you give your post much thought before you sent it? or.. what? If they can stream a few hundred MB to each home, how is that silly? If each home has that BW, they stream channels to each home, it's unlimited channel capacity. You said: "The most IPTV in a cable system will be used for is VOD." Cite your source.. I did. My information comes first hand.. and yours...? Honestly, your post make no sense.. I'm done. And did you put in any thought at all before you sent your post?
Cable already sends hundreds of megabits to homes right now. No, it's not all over a broadband modem, but the fact is, the coax is sending hundreds of megabits to people already. In the form of QAMs, analog channels, and DOCSIS, all combined on the same coax.
So again, I'll say cutting it down to 100 to 200mbit would be silly.
And I know my information comes first hand as well, so I'm not going to cite a source, just like you don't cite a source. Why would cable companies go backwards and use IPTV, when QAMs are already capable of delivering video to existing cable boxes?
From your first hand knowledge, cable companies really want to replace their customers' set top boxes with inferior set top boxes?
Your post was the one that made no sense. And now, you're really done. | |
| | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
1 edit | Re: DOCSIS 3.0 wow.. just wow.
For the record... I've had my hands in head end equipment for years... and you?
.. and why would cable use IPTV? Because unlike QAM, which is hard frequency based, data is data. You can have a virtually unlimited amount of programming choices via IPTV over the current system. And to answer your question.. why would they? I don't need to get that from you.. I'll listen to the engineers that are working on next gen tech. Not someone on BBR.
And yea.. unless you state your source, as far as I am concerned, you're nothing more than many people here who get behind their computer and repeat smack, often incorrect, in an attempt to fluff their chest up. My source was stated many times over and over. So don't try the "like you never do" because it won't work. | |
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| | | DOCSIS 3.0 is not going to beat fiber optics. It just will not do the job. RF technology is ancient and all of these RF issues will just be multiplied with DOCSIS 3.0 BUt they will slow down the informed consumer who knows Optical cables is the only way to go. | |
| | dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4 | DOCSIS 3.0 most likely will just enable providers to load even more subs on a node. Don't for one minute think you're magically going to get a speed increase to 30000/10000 or whatever. until cable providers start doing FTTH, speeds are about maxed where they are and those that have higher caps, they rarely see them.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
|
 kpfx
join:2005-10-28
San Antonio, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| CableCard is not the way TiVo has expressed some concern that the switch to SDV could disrupt third party DVR services that rely on CableCARDs.
Yes, but CableCard is a horrible stop-gap technology that is already on its way out. Just look at the number of new TVs that support CableCard being release now VS 3 years ago.
With the new M-CARD system this won't be a problem. The whole point of the FCC mandated OCAP platform was so companies like TiVo could make devices like theirs work on systems with SDV and 2-way services.
But on that note... think about how well are those 3rd party DVRs with CableCard are also going to run with AT&T's U-Verse or other IPTV platforms. | |
| |  intellerSociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | Re: CableCard is not the way hey, if the cable co wants to buy me a TV that works with m-cards, then great, I'll gladly switch from cable card. But today the fact remains that cableCARD is the only way to avoid bulky cable boxes in secondary TV locations like the bedroom. There will be some major outrage if they break CableCARD. | |
| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: CableCard is not the way Um, since when is an M card not a cable card? It's a cable card with multiple streams. A cable card is a cable card. | |
| | | | intellerSociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | Re: CableCard is not the way that doesnt guarantee my current set will be compatible with m-card whereas it IS compatible with current CableCARDs.
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"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!" | |
| | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: CableCard is not the way You missed the point. You're calling one thing a cable card and another an M card. They are both the SAME THING.
If you are going to use terms, please use them correctly.
There is a (S)ingle stream cable card and a (M)ulti Stream Cable Card... but they are BOTH cable cards.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
| | | | | | intellerSociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | Re: CableCard is not the way tv sets today that have cablecard won't be compatible with newer m-stream cards....I guarantee. that's the way technology works. They will make you buy a new set to use the new cards.
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"WHEN THE LAUGH TRACK STARTS THEN THE FUN STARTS!" | |
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| | Reviews:
·Mediacom
| said by inteller:There will be some major outrage if they break CableCARD. Yes all 100000 of them. cable cos need to improve their service and not worry about TIVo or other third parties. | |
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| | | The FCC did NOT mandate OCAP. That is something that CableLabs is trying to push. FCC did mandate that cable companies support CableCard, and the cable companies seems to be doing everything they can to make it fail.
As everyone else has pointed out, we the customer can easily "break" SDV. All that has to happen is any node/neighborhood request all of the available channels on SDV at any one point & time. Eventually the cable companies will have to drop SDV if enough complaints come in. | |
| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: CableCard is not the way The FCC mandated that the security method be separated from the box - that's it. They didn't mandate any specific technology. They just wanted to open the systems for a universal 3rd party device.
To say the cable co will have to drop SDV because of complaints in pure BS.
I'm reading your post and so many others and listening to great stories, but that's all they are so far.. stories.
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"Complaining is the least path of resistance for the self-serving, the lazy, and I’m told it’s a woman’s prerogative..." | |
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| | | | Re: Stupid TiVo said by swintec:Why do I get the feeling once SDV starts to get more and more popular, the TiVo folks will try to get the government on board to stop it..because there service no longer works. doesn't satellite employ a SDV service? Dish Network's DVR service works marvelously using this technique; why can't TiVo just adapt and use this kind of system?
anyway, personally, I'm glad this SDV is coming first to Cox....because, well, if DOCSIS 3.0 came out first, it'd be a long while before they'd implement SDV....
So either way, once Cox switches over to DOCSIS 3.0+SDV, I'm sure they'll have the capability to allow very high download speeds for customers...and allow them to deploy quite a bit of HD channels. | |
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2 edits | Re: Stupid TiVo said by Fox McCloud :
doesn't satellite employ a SDV service? Dish Network's DVR service works marvelously using this technique; why can't TiVo just adapt and use this kind of system? Because TiVo relies on the CableCARD offered by cable cos. CableCARD barely worked today. TiVo has a valid concern that current CableCARD will not work with SDV and cable cos can care less to make it work or not. | |
| | | |  swintecPremium,VIP
join:2003-12-19
Alfred, ME
kudos:3
 ·RapidVPS
 ·Sprint Mobile Br..
·VoicePulse
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Stupid TiVo said by Foxbat121:said by Fox McCloud :
doesn't satellite employ a SDV service? Dish Network's DVR service works marvelously using this technique; why can't TiVo just adapt and use this kind of system? Because TiVo relies on the CableCARD offered by cable cos. CableCARD barely worked today. TiVo has a valid concern that current CableCARD will not work with SDV and cable cos can care less to make it work or not. Why should the Cable COmpanies care? I'd rather have them investing my subscriber dollars in this new technology and getting it deployed rather than try and help TiVO work.
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BlockNews.Net- Quality Usenet Block Accounts | |
| | | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Stupid TiVo Well , lets see , because paying customers demand it ? Oh no wait sorry they don't care about paying customers as long we keep shelling out cash for their mistakes.
Cablecard was designed by cable labs a lab that basically works for all the cable co's. They made it a POS on purpose and now they want to abandon it because they don't want no one else taking a part of their pie.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | | | swintecPremium,VIP
join:2003-12-19
Alfred, ME
kudos:3 Reviews:
·RapidVPS
·Sprint Mobile Br..
·VoicePulse
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Stupid TiVo said by BosstonesOwn:Well , lets see , because paying customers demand it ? Oh no wait sorry they don't care about paying customers as long we keep shelling out cash for their mistakes. Cablecard was designed by cable labs a lab that basically works for all the cable co's. They made it a POS on purpose and now they want to abandon it because they don't want no one else taking a part of their pie. Paying customers of who? Oh yea, TiVo. TiVo's problem. Also, have you seen the numbers on CableCard usage? A measely 100,000 or so. Hardly a blip on the radar, and surely not even remotely close enough to stop the roll out of new and exciting technology.
Cable Labs "basically" works for the cable companies? I believe they are an independent entity.
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BlockNews.Net- Quality Usenet Block Accounts | |
| | | | | | | | | Re: Stupid TiVo said by swintec:Paying customers of who? Oh yea, TiVo. TiVo's problem. Also, have you seen the numbers on CableCard usage? A measely 100,000 or so. Hardly a blip on the radar, and surely not even remotely close enough to stop the roll out of new and exciting technology. That is because the cable companies try to get people not to use them. Cablecards make less money than converter boxes.
said by swintec:Cable Labs "basically" works for the cable companies? I believe they are an independent entity. From Cablelabs own site:
quote:
CableLabs' members are exclusively cable system operators. They do not include competitive network platforms such as direct broadcast satellite (DBS), telephone companies delivering video services, electrical utilities delivering broadband services, multi-channel multipoint distribution systems (MMDS) or the like. Nor do they include manufacturers or content providers (such as cable programmers, broadcasters or movie studios). Our members are located in the United States, Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe and Asia.
Yeah I think they work for the cable companies.  | |
| | | | | | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Stupid TiVo Stop making sense ! We all know it has to be good for the company and bad for the consumer to actually be of use.
[/sarcasm on]
And Please stop spreading FUD we all know cablelabs is a separate entity , hell the engineers there were never employees of any of the cable co's they are independent workers ! Damn you and your FUD !
[/sarcasm off]
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Stupid TiVo said by swintec:Cable companies try to get people not to use them? Id say the cable card themselves get people not to use them. Also, there is very "few" cable card ready TV sets out there. Most people arent foolish enough to shell out the kind of money on he newer TiVos either. If TV manufacturers output a lot more cable card ready sets, you can bet usage would increase. Actually, many of the larger sets use Cablecards. Both my 62" DLP and 37" LCD have Cablecards slots.
said by swintec:Also, why should the cable companies put this new technology in the backseat because of TiVO and cable card devices? Arent they a legit business, out to make money, keep the MAJORITY of customers content with there service offering? Are you mistaking a cable company with UNICEF possibly?  Because there is a law mandating them:
quote:
The portion of the 1996 Telecom law which resulted in the creation of CableCARDs is known as Section 629, instructing the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to:
"...assure the commercial availability to consumers of multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, of converter boxes, interactive communications equipment, and other equipment used by consumers to access multichannel video programming and other services offered over multichannel video programming systems, from manufacturers, retailers, and other vendors not affiliated with any multichannel video programming distributor."
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| | amungusPremium
join:2004-11-26
America Reviews:
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| "doesn't satellite employ a SDV service?"
No. Sat's broadcast everything they can... they have many "birds" in orbit, and newer/better ones to accomadate more channels.
Also, I do wonder what happens when it's "full" anyway. Would that not defeat the purpose???
Whatever. Leave my analog alone for awhile. It works, and it's been working for YEARS now.
Long as they keep sending analog to my house, I don't care what they do w/the rest of their TV bandwidth. It'll probably turn out to be a huge mess no matter what they do.
Sure, more HD will probably be nice, but there are still MANY people who don't have an HD set - and even those who do who would still like for their older sets to keep working. | |
| | | | | | wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·T-Mobile US
| said by Fox McCloud:doesn't satellite employ a SDV service? Dish Network's DVR service works marvelously using this technique; why can't TiVo just adapt and use this kind of system?
No, satellite is always on. Cable companies can already provide many more HD channels than they do. Also, TiVo literally can't do anything about SDV right now because the fucking cable companies won't agree to a standard that CE devices can use for upstream communication. It's infuriating. What's more, the Cable Labs license that one must agree to to build a box that uses CableCARDs doesn't allow OCAP boxes with third party UIs. So TiVo is essentially fucked if they want to provide a box with their UI and SDV support. So they're somewhat technically within the letter of the law requiring separable security, but they're stifling the market for portable boxes with their administrative restrictions. SDV is merely another of those attempts to stifle the market for third party boxes. In most markets, (Cox, at least) doesn't need SDV. They have 900MHz cable plant and are upgrading beyond that as we speak. They have plenty of QAMs sitting there idle. They have the bandwidth to add at least 20 HD channels tomorrow in my market. The rebuild to support higher frequencies doesn't take all that long, either. | |
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|  banditws6Shrinking Time and DistancePremium
join:2001-08-18
Frisco, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| TiVo ought to just license their OS/user interface to be used on other companies' hardware, like they're doing with Comcast. My TiVo Series 2 has needed numerous infusions of spare parts to keep it running, and it's only a couple years old. If I could just run the TiVo OS on my Comcast DVR, I'd be happy.
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"I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent | |
| | | | | | | | |  Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
·Comcast
2 edits | Re: Stupid TiVo Why should I have to cancel, when the problem was caused by the cable companies violating FCC regulations and then bypassing the regulations on a technicality when they couldn't get their waivers and finally refusing to certify any cableCARD device as 2-way unless it uses OCAP?
Satellite isn't bound by the FCC regulations and there is no "cableCARD" for satellite so that is a red herring. Thanks for playing though. | |
| | | | | swintecPremium,VIP
join:2003-12-19
Alfred, ME
kudos:3 Reviews:
·RapidVPS
·Sprint Mobile Br..
·VoicePulse
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Stupid TiVo Thats the problem, there is regs for cable, but not for satellite. I'll concede about satellite for now, based on the technical aspects of it.
Why should you cancel? The answer is simple. You have seemed to develop the thought that cable TV is necessary for you to live. It isn't. Why should there be these insane regs put on cable companies? They are there own companies that built there own networks...they are out to make a profit. Sure they make a decent one, and why shouldn't they enjoy the fruits of there labor? It's a pretty decent business don't you think? Now because of this you expect the government to step in, mandate another handout and stop the progress of technology??
To borrow a thought from the late Joe Dirt, I hate to tell you, the cable companies arent a charity, maybe one day UNICEF will start offering cable service to your house, until then, tough rocks.
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| | | | | | Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Stupid TiVo Read this article, it explains things better than I can. Basically put though, you wouldn't allow your cable company to force you to rent a computer from them to access the Internet or only allow you to surf with a cable company approved web browser so why should TV be any different (it runs over the same wires)?
The main difference between cable companies and other businesses is that pretty much every cable company started out as a legal monopoly. This was changed in 1996 by the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which was designed to promote competition in exchange for removing the regulation of cable prices, but until very recently it basically worked in reverse with a lot of small monopolistic cable companies being bought out by larger ones. Most of the remaining cable companies are de facto monopolies. Monopolies are generally not good for consumers.
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The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. | |
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| | | wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·T-Mobile US
| said by swintec:Satellite "forces" you to use a box as well...no complaints about them doing that? Dish Network shouldn't be allowed to do it. They use open standards for everything. A standard DVB-S receiver would have no problem tuning their stuff if they'd let you use one with one of their access cards.
DirecTV, on the other hand, uses a system that was designed before such a standard existed. At least they have a decent excuse.
We just have a bunch of monopolizing bastards running the media show in this country, and they've gotten it in their heads that forcing you to use (and pay for) their box does something for customer loyalty.
The only loyalty I have is TiVo. Without it, TV is nearly unbearable. | |
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major marcoRes Firma Mitescere NescitPremium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
1 edit | Not Again EDIT:
I just realized that this is already happening here. The cable box is ssssssssssssllllllllllllllloooooooooow. And if you want to look at the on-screen programming for the next day, then it sits there and sits there and sits there. I left it sit for 2 hrs one day and the schedule still wouldn't load. PPV doesn't work either because you can't scroll through the options fast enough. It takes a minimum of 5 minutes from the time you hit the down arrow on the remote to get to the next item on the menu. And then there has been the widespread blackouts happening with all three services at the same time -phone, cable AND Internet-
Cox has not officially commented on any of this BTW. They like to keep customers in the dark, especially in this county. If you call up and complain the official story is that nobody knows nuttin'. They have no comment or just make shit up. 
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The Toll
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|  SSidlovOther Things On My MindPremium
join:2000-03-03
Pompton Lakes, NJ
·Optimum Online
| YAWN...Cablevision already deployed this to its footprint We don't have DOCSIS 3.0. But we do have switched video.
Yes, it does have some odd side effects, more popular shows seem to get more bandwidth. Sluggish tuning or stuttering on tuning-- that is, you change channels and you get a picture and if you stay on the channel, the picture stops and starts momentarily for just an instant(system adjusts stream?).
While I have no sets with cablecards, it still works though not all cards work in all units. There are a number of complaints posted all the time at the Cablevision forum here.
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»www.Warpstock.org | |
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