DISH Sues TiVo to Avoid More Patent Problems - DISH wants to sell product without facing ongoing litigation

DISH Sues TiVo to Avoid More Patent Problems
DISH wants to sell product without facing ongoing litigation
(old news - 03:11PM Saturday May 31 2008)
tags: legal · satellite · business · Dish Network

Back in 2006, TiVo filed a patent infringement lawsuit against DISH Network, claiming that DISH’s DVR was a violation of a patent held by TiVo. The courts found that to be correct and recently denied DISH their appeal request. DISH is moving on to the Supreme Court with its appeal but in the meantime has filed a lawsuit against TiVo regarding DISH’s new DVR software. TiVo has been making public statements that the new technology also infringes on a TiVo patent and DISH wants a judge to confirm that it does not. TiVo hasn’t commented on the lawsuit.

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Forums » DISH Sues TiVo to Avoid More Patent Problems


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pandora Premium join:2001-06-01 Outland ·ooma ·Future Nine Corpor.. ·Comcast	Dish has got to get its DVR act together Dish has got to get its DVR act together. Losing the distant channels really hurt, if they lose DVR capability, Dish will lose the vast majority of DVR users. -- "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
	permalink · 2008-05-31 15:57:51 ·

brooklynman4 join:2004-09-07 Brooklyn, NY	Re: Dish has got to get its DVR act together This is gonna be fun lets see what happens next.
	permalink · 2008-05-31 16:20:04 ·

v35_pilot
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I suspect at worse Dish will be forced to cough up royalty payments, both for current and past subscribers. There is no way Dish will just roll over and cut off all DVR features of their receivers when all appeals have been exhausted.

As a longtime Dish customer I actually think their DVR has come a long way and surpasses most cable companies and Verizon FIOS's DVRs, especially with their introduction of name-based recordings over the last several months.

permalink · 2008-05-31 18:13:53 ·

Morac

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1 edit

Re: Dish has got to get its DVR act together

said by v35_pilot

:

I suspect at worse Dish will be forced to cough up royalty payments, both for current and past subscribers. There is no way Dish will just roll over and cut off all DVR features of their receivers when all appeals have been exhausted.

Dish is currently violating an injunction against it to shut down their DVRS. The injunction took affect earlier this month (after Dish lost the appeal against TiVo's lawsuit). As it stands now, there will be a contempt of court hearing on September 4th where it's expected heavy fines will be slapped on Dish for failing to comply with the injunction.

If Dish was going to settle, you'd think it would have done so already.
--

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permalink · 2008-05-31 22:15:32 · Print ·

Jmartz

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said by pandora

:

Dish has got to get its DVR act together. Losing the distant channels really hurt, if they lose DVR capability, Dish will lose the vast majority of DVR users.

They will not lose customers over that. Cable Company DVR's suck (Cablevision is probably the worst) and they still have plenty of customers and the Cable Companies get to charge insane fees for the DVR's. Cablevision charges nearly $17/month for it's DVR which doesn't have nearly as much functionality or user friendliness as the Tivos do.

permalink · 2008-05-31 22:11:04 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	Dish HAS their act together. It's these leeches like Tivo who want to say "We own the DVR", you can't make your own, we'll sue" that need to be slapped around.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 12:25:45 ·

pandora
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Re: Dish has got to get its DVR act together

said by KrK

:

Dish HAS their act together. It's these leeches like Tivo who want to say "We own the DVR", you can't make your own, we'll sue" that need to be slapped around.

I tend to agree with your sentiment. Unfortunately the courts do not agree with either of us.

The last time Dish pushed an issue around, it lost distant network access for many customers. If Dish doesn't get it's legal act together, it risks more sanctions. Last time they lost distant networks, my comment was more along the lines of if they're not careful, and if history repeats, they could lose all DVR capability as the result of a courts injunction.

I'd rather not see Dish Network taken out of the DVR business by order of a court. If this were to happen, it'll be a disaster for Dish and their customers.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

permalink · 2008-06-01 12:52:15 · Print ·

KrK
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Re: Dish has got to get its DVR act together

Dish didn't push the issue, the broadcasters sued. Dish fought hard to save the distant networks but lost due to lobbyist $$$$ IMHO.

Same thing here. Tivo wants DISH to pay them a lot of money. Dish has developed their own DVR's from scratch, and don't want to raise subscribers rates.

So they fight the extortion attempt.

DISH isn't the bad guy here.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

permalink · 2008-06-01 13:09:23 · Print ·

pandora
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Re: Dish has got to get its DVR act together

I don't think Dish is the bad guy, it is surprising to read you apparently rebutting that impression. At the same time, Dish has got to work with the court system and avoid antagonizing where possible. Dish lost distant networks when it fought in court, and may be risking the loss of DVR functionality if it cannot positively resolve the current situation. My hope is Dish will resolve this without damaging DVR support.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."

permalink · 2008-06-01 13:21:01 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	Re: Dish has got to get its DVR act together My point is Dish didn't make a mistake "fighting in Court". They took Distant networks from Dish, Dish HAD to fight to try and save it.... and lost.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 18:25:26 ·

AD7BK
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Dish Network

Well, you see when companies are not truthful, when they have a lot of money, they will use it to hire liars (Lawyers) to make it where they gain control over the said technology (like the Playstation dual shock and a company in Washington state that invented the feedback (the rumbling feature of the controller). Welcome to America the country of the double standard. After all we were founded by "A bunch of slave owners who wanted to be free" Say one thing, do something different.

Sad. But Dish network sucks for HD. Now they are tring to sue TiVo. Who was first in the Digital Video Recording market?

I hope that some day that everytghing in the US straighten out. It was great back in the 80's now it's total chaos.
--
The following statement is true...
The preceding statement was false!!--George Carlin

permalink · 2008-05-31 17:41:14 · Print ·

EPS join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA	Re: Dish Network This is a countersuit- TiVo has already won suits against Dish for older DVRs and is making claims that their newer versions, designed to avoid infringement, also violate their patents. Dish is looking for clarification, but TiVo initiated the proceedings.
	permalink · 2008-05-31 17:44:29 ·

AD7BK Premium join:2000-03-23 Port Orchard, WA	Re: Dish Network It looks like that. Perhaps the truth will come out. And once that happens, Dish better patent it. -- The following statement is true... The preceding statement was false!!--George Carlin
	permalink · 2008-05-31 17:49:08 ·

EPS join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA	Re: Dish Network TiVo has stated to analysts that they expect patent enforcement to be a major source of revenue in the coming years for the company, so I'd expect more suits, against more than just Dish and Echostar.
	permalink · 2008-05-31 18:07:45 ·

Morac

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Re: Dish Network

said by EPS

:

TiVo has stated to analysts that they expect patent enforcement to be a major source of revenue in the coming years for the company, so I'd expect more suits, against more than just Dish and Echostar.

I think TiVo is looking for licensing fees (which they already have with DirectTV, Comcast and soon Cox). I doubt law suits are going to become a major source of revenue, especially when they take so long to complete (TiVo has yet to see a dime from their suit against Dish).

Currently TiVo has deals with Comcast and Cox so it's very unlikely they will sue them. Since Comcast and Cox use Motorola and SA boxes (which are getting TiVo software), I doubt TiVo would sue Motorola or SA either.

TiVo also has a "no sue" contract with DirectTV, though I think that expires in a few years. DirectTV now holds the old ReplayTV contracts (many which conflict with TiVo's) so even without the "no sue" contract, it might not be in TiVo's best interest to sue DirectTV.

I'm not sure who's left to sue at this point.

permalink · 2008-05-31 22:22:27 · Print ·

scooby
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Was ReplayTV first or Tivo first?

Tivo appears to be trying to make an example out of Dish. The jury awarded Tivo something like $100 million in damages for the previous software violations. If this holds up, they can force everyone else to either sign a licensing contract or face a lawsuit and let the jury decide.

Comcast probably has a licensing deal with the Comcast Tivo that is in development.

DirecTV has a licensing/support contract with Tivo and they bought ReplayTV so they are probably safe from ever being sued by Tivo. The patent battle between the two would be bloody and could invalidate some of Tivo's patents.

permalink · 2008-05-31 22:07:41 · Print ·

joako Premium join:2000-09-07 /dev/null	Re: Dish Network Both came out around the same time. I think TiVO was first but I can only find vague references to Replay being released sometime Nov 1999. -- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
	permalink · 2008-05-31 23:39:45 ·

Morac join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ ·Comcast	Re: Dish Network said by joako : Both came out around the same time. I think TiVO was first but I can only find vague references to Replay being released sometime Nov 1999. If I recall correctly, TiVo beat Replay to market by a month. -- The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired.
	permalink · 2008-05-31 23:42:38 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	Re: Dish Network Nope. ReplayTV was first.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 12:37:48 ·

Morac join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ ·Comcast	Re: Dish Network said by KrK : Nope. ReplayTV was first. They may have announced their product first, but TiVo was first to actually have a product on the shelves. Here's a link to the story from someone at TiVo. »www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sh···t=389014
	permalink · 2008-06-01 22:51:02 · Print ·

KrK
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1 edit

Re: Dish Network

Ok in researching this further, there seems to be mass confusion. It appears that ReplayTV and Tivo were unveiled at CES, and ReplayTV was pretty much ready to go while Tivo needed some more work, so Tivo's team busted hump working night and day.

From what I can tell, finished replayTV's may have been shipping first to warehouse or etc but their actual debut was scheduled and Tivo may have therefore beaten them to the punch on hitting store shelves. Some say ReplayTV was first, some say Tivo was first. It matters not much....

However what I did find out was Tivo already tried to sue ReplayTV for patent infringement..... BUT due to ReplayTV's strong set of relevant DVR patents themselves apparently what happened was both companies settled with a cross-licensing agreement--- IE they agreed to not sue each other over patents and actually did like a legal technology share agreement.

This is really what DirecTV has bought--- and one reason why they have a "Tivo can't sue us" clause... They have ReplayTV's patents and crosslicensing agreement with Tivo now.

Tivo is after Dish now.... but honestly Dish has developed it's own DVR's in house. Still with patent law it may not matter.... It's kinda a crock....

Tivo focused on easy of use, while ReplayTV focused on powerful features and cutting edge tech. IE Networking, Commercial Skip, etc

In fact it was Commercial skip and networking that sealed their doom. They got sued bigtime by Hollywood, and the cost of the ongoing legal suit really buried SonicBlue... We lost a good Tech company. Remember SonicBlue's routes were in S3's, IE the old Diamond Multimedia....

Long before the Ipod, there was the RIO MP3 player.... Remember that? It too was sued by the RIAA and Hollywood but it actually won the lawsuit... still cost millions to defend though, and Diamond Multimedia wasn't a huge company with deep pockets.

permalink · 2008-06-01 23:10:55 · Print ·

Morac

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1 edit

Re: Dish Network

said by KrK

:

This is really what DirecTV has bought--- and one reason why they have a "Tivo can't sue us" clause... They have ReplayTV's patents and crosslicensing agreement with Tivo now.

I'll mention the "won't sue" contract went into effect (in 2006) a year before DirecTV bought out ReplayTV's patents (2007). It occurred when DirecTV was going to drop the DirectTV manufactured TiVo box and go solely with it's own boxes. The agreement is that DirectTV will support the TiVo boxes until 2010 and that neither company will sue the other for patent violation. See the press release.

said by KrK

:

Tivo is after Dish now.... but honestly Dish has developed it's own DVR's in house. Still with patent law it may not matter.... It's kinda a crock....

There is a rather interesting history between TiVo and Dish. The story, according to TiVo, is that TiVo originally approached both Dish and DirecTV to license TiVo's DVR technology. TiVo allowed both Dish and DirecTV to examine TiVo's prototype DVR. DirecTV chose to license the technology while Dish chose not to. Shortly later Dish came out with their own DVR that basically did the same exact thing as TiVo's prototype.

TiVo's patent is very specific in that it is designed to allow a machine with very little processing power to perform DVR functionality. That's not very important these days because processing power is cheap, but back in 1999 it was a big deal. That Dish came out with a DVR very similar to TiVo's at that time right after TiVo showed them how the TiVo DVR works is why TiVo chose to sue Dish. Think of it as this century's Philo Farnsworth vs. David Sarnoff.

That said, most likely, Dish has worked around TiVo's patent at this point. That's why Dish is suing TiVo to show that their new software does not infringe. Unfortunately for Dish, it's most likely too late for that to prevent the injunction from taking effect.
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permalink · 2008-06-02 09:53:56 · Print ·

KrK
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Re: Dish Network

That's TIVO's side of the story anyway.

Once nice thing Dish did though was they setup their DVR's to record the actual raw digital stream before decompression, processing back to image for TV. The result of this was that the recorded show was of the exact same picture and sound quality as the show appears on the TV.... while still getting the benefits of compression.--- IE no quality loss.
--
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permalink · 2008-06-03 05:22:52 · Print ·

KrK
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said by scooby

:

Was ReplayTV first or Tivo first?

ReplayTV. They were close, in development at the same time, but ReplayTV beat Tivo to market. Not that it matters much.

Tivo appears to be trying to make an example out of Dish.

They are. So far everyone's caving in to the extortion, but Dish is resisting and saying "Go to Hell." So like many just causes, they are being put through Hell. They have a history of fighting BS, and are hoping that justice will win out in the end.... which is looking a bit slim at the moment. Dish may end up having to pay the extortion fees, which of course will be passed on to customers.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

permalink · 2008-06-01 12:36:37 · Print ·

joako Premium join:2000-09-07 /dev/null	On what date was ReplayTV released to market and do you have a source for that? -- 09:F9:11:02:9D:74:E3:5B:D8:41:56:C5:63:56:88:C0
	permalink · 2008-06-01 13:11:12 ·

KrK
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Re: Dish Network

ReplayTV hit the markey January 1999. Tivo's first was March 31st-ish same year. I was very interested in the "PVR". I own a ReplayTV and am familar with their legacy. Back when they had their SonicBlue site and ReplayTV site it used to be up on that site.

Checking for third party references....

From ZDNET »updates.zdnet.com/tags/replaytv.html

"Even though ReplayTV beat it to market by a few months in 1999, it was TiVo that quickly became synonymous with digital video recorder DVR..."

From Wikipedia: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReplayTV

"The first ReplayTV model launched in January 1999, two months ahead of rival TiVo."
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)

permalink · 2008-06-01 20:33:43 · Print ·

gtoken join:2003-12-28 Fort Smith, AR ·Cox HSI ·Dish Network	said by AD7BK : Welcome to America the country of the double standard. After all we were founded by "A bunch of slave owners who wanted to be free" Say one thing, do something different. Canada would be a hop and a skip for you. Why dont you just get the he77 out if you dislike this country so much?
	permalink · 2008-06-01 18:59:20 ·

AD7BK Premium join:2000-03-23 Port Orchard, WA	Re: Dish Network I was quoting George Carlin and Canada disturbs me LOL
	permalink · 2008-06-02 01:42:30 ·

rawgerz In Debt we trust Premium join:2004-10-03 Grove City, PA	Open Source? Wouldn't Linux OS DVR's be exempt from any infringements? I mean Linux is open source so..
	permalink · 2008-05-31 23:24:32 ·

EPS join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA	Re: Open Source? Being open source doesn't mean immunity to patent violations. There have been patent claims against the Linux operating system itself, ignoring any DVR functionality.
	permalink · 2008-05-31 23:34:50 ·

pete2o2o @verizon.net	Re: Open Source? There needs to be more dvr competition out there i think dish is gonna win this one.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 00:12:55 ·

Hall Premium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Dayton, OH ·EarthLink ·AT&T Midwest ·Earthlink Cable Mo..	said by rawgerz : Wouldn't Linux OS DVR's be exempt from any infringements? I mean Linux is open source so.. You have to distinguish between the OS and various "support" software and the application software that runs on top of Linux. Dish's DVR software is not open-source, nor does it have to be.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 10:17:09 ·

scooper join:2000-07-11 Youngsville, NC	You guys are not seeing the whole picture It's alot more complicated than you're all saying.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 09:40:50 ·

dishsucks @comcast.net	Yeah it does Dish blows and needs to have an unfortunate accident. Scorpions, snakes, a flood.. I haven't decided yet.
	permalink · 2008-06-01 13:22:16 ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	Re: Yeah it does said by dishsucks : Dish blows and needs to have an unfortunate accident. Scorpions, snakes, a flood.. I haven't decided yet. You mean it blows because it kicks Comcast's ass?
	permalink · 2008-06-01 20:34:52 ·

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You guys are not seeing the whole picture

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