pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 10:36 am
Power GrabAs the article summary points out, ISPs will already retain data that is related to criminal activity if law enforcement makes the request. No further law is needed.
IMO, this goal of this proposal is to harass law-abiding ISP customers. Crooks can already make use of any number of encryption methods and other tactics to cover their tracks if they wish to commit crimes online, and as a result, retaining such data will help very little to track crooks.
Sadly, such proposals are always popular with both political parties. | |
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| coldmoon Premium Member join:2002-02-04 Fulton, NY
1 recommendation |
coldmoon
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 10:56 am
Re: Power Grabsaid by pnh102:As the article summary points out, ISPs will already retain data that is related to criminal activity if law enforcement makes the request. No further law is needed.
IMO, this goal of this proposal is to harass law-abiding ISP customers. Crooks can already make use of any number of encryption methods and other tactics to cover their tracks if they wish to commit crimes online, and as a result, retaining such data will help very little to track crooks.
Sadly, such proposals are always popular with both political parties. Like the lock on your front door, the only real effect will be to chill law abiding use of the Internet and will do nothing to stop those determined to engage in illegal activities. Those who already have the skills to hack into someone else's network get past this type of monitoring before it is even implemented. This is nothing more than an attempt to legalize general datamining rather than focusing on information related to a specific criminal investigation. Without independent Judicial review, this is dangerous and should not be allowed as it is obvious that the authorities can't resist moral hazard; especially when there is no one looking over their shoulders to make sure they behave. JMHO Mike | |
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| | FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
FFH5
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 12:53 pm
Re: Power Grabsaid by coldmoon: will do nothing to stop those determined to engage in illegal activities. Those who already have the skills to hack into someone else's network get past this type of monitoring before it is even implemented. I don't think the intent of such laws is to prevent crimes. It is to provide evidence after the fact to convict criminals in court. And you give too much credit to the criminals on how well they will cover their tracks. Most are not really very smart and they leave tracks all over the place of their activities. | |
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Re: Power GrabI agree with your assessment. Maybe we should extend this to all car manufacturers implementing GPS systems that maintain all data on us so they can give that to authorities. Then we can extend this to every person / child puts their DNA and Finger Prints into a national database so we can be tracked and "discovered" in the event that we do / have done something that requires them to have evidence for this. /sarcasm off
They already have the tools they need to track those needed to be tracked. They can obtain a court order and begin tracking them. | |
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| | | coldmoon Premium Member join:2002-02-04 Fulton, NY |
to FFH5
said by FFH5:said by coldmoon: will do nothing to stop those determined to engage in illegal activities. Those who already have the skills to hack into someone else's network get past this type of monitoring before it is even implemented. I don't think the intent of such laws is to prevent crimes. It is to provide evidence after the fact to convict criminals in court. And you give too much credit to the criminals on how well they will cover their tracks. Most are not really very smart and they leave tracks all over the place of their activities. No, the focus of my post was in regard to the chilling effects that such a law would have for law abiding Internet users as it becomes known that everything they write, every e-mail, details of where they have surfed (whether on purpose or by accident), etc will not only be recorded, but retained for (presumably) casual inspection or algorithmic analysis for two years. Further, that this monitoring would be conducted with little or no judicial oversight. You can see this effect when a person knows they are being taped or their words/actions will be recorded to video. Speech becomes self censored and ultimately useless to accurate analysis in the event of a real criminal investigation. I do not give most criminals credit and agree that the vast majority are going to leave some form of traceable evidence. The example was to highlight that there is more than one way for bad actors to "skin that cat" when they come to it which makes the dragnet approach ultimately useless for anything OTHER than general Governmental data mining and the danger that introduces given their obvious lack of respect for the clearly defined boundaries of their authority. JMHO | |
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| TamaraBQuestion The Current Paradigm Premium Member join:2000-11-08 Da Bronx ·Verizon FiOS Ubiquiti NSM5 Synology RT2600ac Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)
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to pnh102
said by pnh102:CrooksPrivacy and net neutrality advocates can already make use of any number of encryption methods and other tactics ...
Like off-shore VPNs to refuse to be monitored, tracked, counted, watched, and harassed by over-zealous, Orwellian, corporate and government nosy pigs! When does the camera in the bedroom become law? When do they mandate your webcam be turned on all the time? This is another intrusion into our personal lives. It's none of their damn business what we do online (or anywhere else for that matter), where we go, what we see and read. My IP address already does ONE thing, and one thing only. It tunnels off-shore. They already see nothing beyond that. When do VPNs become illegal? This is another waste of time and money. Worse, it's another step towards a Chinese-Style police state, where everyone is treated like a criminal. | |
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| KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
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to pnh102
that is just it as mentioned, the Criminals already take measures to "not be seen" or they operate from outside our laws in another country.
and Child Porn is always a shit excuse, the only way that is taken down from what I have seen on shows like FBI Files is by good old fashioned police work of getting involved with the people who do the crime and then when you have enough evidence you authorize coordinated stings. | |
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| | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Jan-26 7:21 am
Re: Power GrabI read this somewhere and I can't remember who said it, but it is quite fitting:
"Child Porn" is literally the root password to the US Constitution. | |
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| | | KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
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Kearnstd
Premium Member
2011-Jan-26 9:51 am
Re: Power Grabsaid by pnh102:I read this somewhere and I can't remember who said it, but it is quite fitting:
"Child Porn" is literally the root password to the US Constitution. And Terrorist must be the answer to the secret question when the Root PW is forgotten. =) | |
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| | | fatnesssubtle
join:2000-11-17 fishing |
to pnh102
said by pnh102:I read this somewhere and I can't remember who said it, but it is quite fitting:
"Child Porn" is literally the root password to the US Constitution. It's true. "Terrorism" was an earlier one. I wonder what the next ones will be. "Objectionable content" doesn't have a very catchy ring to it. | |
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to pnh102
said by pnh102:As the article summary points out, ISPs will already retain data that is related to criminal activity if law enforcement makes the request. No further law is needed. Agreed. It's sad to see how our federal government has routinely found the existing US justice system deficient and campaigned for the ability to override or ignore it in different ways. ISP's will give data to law enforcement agencies at the drop of a hat; defense attorneys and other interested parties have a more difficult time obtaining it from ISP's. I get the feeling that the real goal here is so that any government investigator can just sit, point, click, and have any information they wish about anyone. | |
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to pnh102
Obama Administration Justice Department is owned by the MAFIAA.does this post surprise anyone.
obama will not be getting my vote again.i made that mistake once and i won't be fooled again. | |
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| | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
KrK
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 6:41 pm
Re: Power GrabDidn't take too long for someone to blame Obama. Figures. As for the second part, yes, you will, are being, and will continue to be. | |
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| | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 8:29 pm
Re: Power Grabsaid by KrK:Didn't take too long for someone to blame Obama. Figures. As for the second part, yes, you will, are being, and will continue to be. To be fair, the MPAA, RIAA and their member companies are big donors and supporters of the Democrat party. However, when the GOP is in power it loves to be stupid and kowtow to these groups as well. The GOP is only slightly less in bed with the content industry than the Democrats. Why the GOP would want to help the content industry I will never understand. | |
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| | | | fatnesssubtle
join:2000-11-17 fishing
1 recommendation |
Re: Power GrabThe Bush administration used telcos to get what they wanted, and rewarded those who played along. The Obama administration is using ISP's to get what they want now. And what they both want (and every future administration of either party will want) is more information on more Americans at their fingertips, with no obstacles to the use of that information. | |
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| | | | | pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium Member join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD |
pnh102
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 10:07 pm
Re: Power GrabI have no doubt at all that if the GOP was in power it would support this proposal to the hilt. | |
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RichCat to pnh102
Anon
2011-Jan-25 11:47 pm
to pnh102
Request? dosen't the law require a warrent? or was that only in America. Where they had not only laws but a Constitution to protect privacy! | |
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| KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ |
to pnh102
Ok now who manages security on this? what is to stop my data from getting out into the public domain because some idiot left a laptop on a seat on a bus. How long until the Corporates ask that the data be purchasable for data mining? And I am sure the RIAA and MPAA will buy access from their pet congress critters to it so they can issue preemptive lawsuits on anyone who visited The Pirate Bay. | |
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axus join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC |
axus
Member
2011-Jan-25 10:52 am
The constitution is also frustrating for "Law Enforcement&qThe bill of rights and due process can be inconvenient for "law enforcement". But we don't get rid of them, because they provide even greater benefits to society by limiting abuse of power.
I believe it's OK for the government to tell business *not* to do something, but adding requirements to them is burdensome and should only be done if businesses are causing problems to society.
The way I see it, if the only indication of a crime is a record of bytes that passed through a network, and there was no damage done in the real world, then maybe it shouldn't be a crime?
If the law enforcement weren't notified of the effects of a crime in a month or two, then either we need more people working those cases, or there wasn't enough damage to be noticeable. | |
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Re: The constitution is also frustrating for "Law Enforcemesaid by axus:The bill of rights and due process can be inconvenient for "law enforcement". But we don't get rid of them, because they provide even greater benefits to society by limiting abuse of power.... you mean we haven't gotten rid of all of them yet. make no mistake, the US govt (executive, judicial and legislative branches all working together) is clearly on the path to gut or weaken any constitutional right that is "inconvenient" for "keeping us safe" what was it that funny guy that flew kites said...... | |
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AlexNYC
Member
2011-Jan-25 10:59 am
HummmCar manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. | |
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Corehhi
Member
2011-Jan-25 11:37 am
Re: Hummmsaid by AlexNYC:Car manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. It has been suggested that cars have black boxes like airplanes. Add GPS and you have a nice tracking set up. | |
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| | RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY |
RARPSL
Member
2011-Jan-25 12:53 pm
Re: Hummmsaid by Corehhi:said by AlexNYC:Car manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. It has been suggested that cars have black boxes like airplanes. Add GPS and you have a nice tracking set up. The Black Box in cars already exists and is in most (many?) cars. It is part of the computerized control system on the car. As to GPS, the police can activate the tracker if they want. You have seen it on NCIS/etc. and that is not just Hollywood plotting. Look up OnStar for details. | |
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RichCat
Anon
2011-Jan-25 11:59 pm
Re: HummmWhy bother with E911 on every cellphone out there can do that now. On the New phones they call it a feature!
So sez my manual HTC EVO | |
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to AlexNYC
said by AlexNYC:Car manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. I guess you don't have on-star? | |
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AlexNYC
Member
2011-Jan-25 11:54 am
Re: HummmAbsolutely not. And if I did I would have disabled it. | |
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No I don't have On star, do they have it set up to save data??? I do know a guy was suing On star because after a crash they called him in his car and the driver refused to have them send help. They sent the police and he got a DUI.
I worry more about this stuff as it relates to divorces etc. | |
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Re: HummmWith all the little electronic sensors on modern vehicles, OnStar 'could' log all your vehicles data. » www.onstar.com/web/porta ··· nt#Share» autos.aol.com/article/ve ··· -device/Almost all new cars come with an event data recorder, which is an electronic device connected to a variety of sensors around the vehicle both inside and outside. It can tell if a driver is wearing a seatbelt, or if the oil pressure is low, and in the event of a crash it will send a signal instructing the car's airbags to deploy. It also tracks the car's acceleration or deceleration and its speed in the seconds before a crash occurs. Such information is vital to crash investigators and commonly is used by insurance companies to determine who's at fault in a wreck. | |
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RichCat to Corehhi
Anon
2011-Jan-26 6:53 am
to Corehhi
Never faced a DUI have you? Divorce is a vacation in comparision. | |
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| TechieZeroTools Are Using Me Premium Member join:2002-01-25 Lithia, FL |
to AlexNYC
said by AlexNYC:Car manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. I thought about this analogy as well, but I think it doesn't fit right as the car company is not constantly supplying you the car. Regardless this is BS that they expect the ISP to be a Big Brother Cop. | |
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| flbas1 join:2010-02-03 Fort Lauderdale, FL |
to AlexNYC
not necessarily the car manufacturers - like GM or Ford. That is like Scientific America keeping tabs on their cable-tv set-top boxes. Instead, think more like car rental companies (like the ISP's "renting" you access to the intertubes). » www.paylesscar.com/faq.asp#18or » writ.news.findlaw.com/ra ··· 823.htmlFirst, let's look at the Connecticut case. It arose because American Car Rental had a policy of charging its clients $150 for "excessive wear and tear" to the rental car, each time they drove over 79 miles per hour.
American knew exactly when that occurred because its subsidiary, Acme Rental, used GPS installed in its cars to monitor renters' speed as they traveled. Whenever GPS reported that the customer drove at least 80mph for more than two minutes at a time, the company charged the customer's credit or debit card $150. | |
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| packetscan Premium Member join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT |
to AlexNYC
said by AlexNYC:Car manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. Well if you look at say On-star, based on the way it works it's always communicating in short bursts, so to some extent your on-star equipped vehicle is being tracked 24/7 and a warrant or subpoena is enough to get the info of where the vehicle has been. It comes down to how many days, weeks, months or years this data is kept. | |
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| | KearnstdSpace Elf Premium Member join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ |
Kearnstd
Premium Member
2011-Jan-26 2:16 am
Re: Hummmsaid by packetscan:said by AlexNYC:Car manufacturers do not keep track of where their customers are driving either ... even if some vehicles are used in the perpetration of a crime. Well if you look at say On-star, based on the way it works it's always communicating in short bursts, so to some extent your on-star equipped vehicle is being tracked 24/7 and a warrant or subpoena is enough to get the info of where the vehicle has been. It comes down to how many days, weeks, months or years this data is kept. Also why if you are a criminal and you use your own car, do not use the EZ-Pass Lane when going to commit a crime. the cops can go get the handy court order and go Oh Hey you did get off that exit one mile from the crime scene exactly 5 minutes before the robbery and then got back on 2 minutes later.... | |
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| | | RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY |
RARPSL
Member
2011-Jan-26 5:41 am
Re: Hummmsaid by Kearnstd:Also why if you are a criminal and you use your own car, do not use the EZ-Pass Lane when going to commit a crime. the cops can go get the handy court order and go Oh Hey you did get off that exit one mile from the crime scene exactly 5 minutes before the robbery and then got back on 2 minutes later.... I have read about cases (which might just be urban legends) of EZ-PASS (or its equivalent under a different name) being used to automatically issue speeding tickets. The idea was the car was logged going though two toll barriers with a time difference short enough that the car would need to have been speeding to have gone that far in the time span between the two records. | |
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WHT join:2010-03-26 Rosston, TX |
WHT
Member
2011-Jan-25 11:03 am
Ask for $45 for each records searchDo it like Comcast (?) does for RIAA/MIAA user IP address look up. | |
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Pay the billThe smart criminal will use encryption and hide their tracks. The ISP will forward the cost to the consumer.
How about no. | |
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Mr Matt
Member
2011-Jan-25 11:12 am
Police staters at work! What is the difference in requiring ISP's to retain a history of all a subscribers use of the internet and requiring all citizens to have cameras installed in every home particularly the bedroom routed to the local police to make sure they do not do anything in violation of local or federal laws. Then of course every automobile should have a GPS installed reporting it's location to local law enforcement just in case the driver goes to a store that sells porn. Every cell phone should have a system installed to track wherever the subscriber goes so the government can know if the subscriber goes to a "bad" location. I am sorry my mistake all cell phones already have a system to track the location of the subscriber that has the handset in there possession. The government wants the ISP's to keep the data because they can and because the conservatives want to discard certain portions of the Constitution. Then of course is the new internet philosophy of guilty until proven innocent. You will be screwed if some pervert hacks into your WiFi connection and downloads anything considered illegal. Obviously the victim will be double victimized because the authorities seize all of their computers to go through a fishing expedition on their hard drives to confirm in fact that they have not done anything naughty. How long will the subscriber spend in the slammer if the authorities find a few songs that were downloaded by some 12 Year old brat visiting a year ago. | |
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Re: Police staters at work!said by Mr Matt: What is the difference in requiring ISP's to retain a history of all a subscribers use of the internet and requiring all citizens to have cameras installed in every home particularly the bedroom routed to the local police to make sure they do not do anything in violation of local or federal laws. You obviously haven't been keeping up. That proposal was put out there almost five years ago. » www.informationliberatio ··· ?id=6506Just when you think this can't get any more absurd, you learn it got more absurd a long time ago. | |
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So Much for "Smaller Government"Yeah, thanks for that. Government is intrusive and too big if it plays a part in health care (or even dictating cost control thereof), but it isn't so small nor intrusive if it has drag-and-drop access to what people do on the internet. | |
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Murdoc49 Premium Member join:2009-02-08 Manitowoc, WI |
Murdoc49
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 11:32 am
So what about false accusations?Like if someone spoofed someone elses ip address...That sort of stuff? | |
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supertech
Anon
2011-Jan-25 11:59 am
Our ISP will keep the IP log but they will be net NATed IPV4Our ISP will keep the IP log but they will be wide area networked NATed IPV4 IP's | |
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The DOJ...is really only concerned with possible downloading of music and songs. They have enough former RIAA/MPAA attorneys there and in control to make sure that the RIAA/MPAA can get what they want. And of course, spying on all citizens is extremely important. Anyone who thinks that the government really bothers to get court orders or any such thing before spying on anyone is dreaming. | |
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1984, Just a little bit closerWe're slowly creeping more and more towards becoming liable for "thought-crimes". Orwell's book was not a manual on what to do, but a freakin' warning! | |
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caster665
Anon
2011-Jan-25 12:59 pm
Re: 1984, Just a little bit closeryour going to jail for life for pre murder | |
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RWSI
Anon
2011-Jan-25 12:38 pm
Whos going to pay.If we have to maintain a database, who is going to pay for the storage? We do not have the millions it will take to store that much data.
New power source,new servers, new generator to guarantee power and much more.
By the way our network was designed in such a way to avoid tracking.
NUTS | |
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Re: Whos going to pay.You'll just have to redesign your network and make any other changes necessary to come into compliance. Your other options are to either shut down or be out of compliance, which means you could be prosecuted.
You didn't think a little thing like financial hardship would stop something like this, did you? | |
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Canada as wellCanada's police force also wants ISP's to keep two years worth of rolling data. Along with emails and VOIP data. And the police want an initial 100% warrant-less information gathering, to be able to get a users name, account details and email address's from the ISP's, without having to bother a Judge, for the first part of the investigation. It's completely illegal under our Constitutional and Civil Rights, but some Judges sign away our Rights under that dastardly term of "safety". Meanwhile police forces in North America do not want to be videoed as they commit crimes(assaults). But are all so happy to put up thousands of cameras to be able to relax in a nice warm police building, so they no longer have to patrol the streets(cost savings). Exercise your Right to Freedom of Communication and send a criminal officer to 'time out'(also known as desk duty), since the police in Canada don't get jailed for minor or major crimes. » bccla.org/ | |
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hmmwell i think this is simple bad for sheer fact it it pass. it will get worst | |
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drstein join:2004-06-12 Sacramento, CA |
RIAAYou know who else is slobbering over this? The RIAA. The RIAA has *five* former DOJ lawyers that are in high up positions.
No doubt this is a nice 'gimme' to their friends in Hollywood. | |
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unenforceableISP's might keep some basic logs, such as mail and other services, but nobody keeps copies of your email, except for the non-downloaded or un-read messages, or if you keep your mail on the server.
ISP's are going to need to build giant sniffer boxes and archive all this data on innocent citizens? Deep Packet Inspection for hundreds of million of users just doesn't scale. Are exchange points going to need to have DPI as well? How broad is this legislation going to cover? | |
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2 Zoom 5341J
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KrK
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 6:38 pm
I can't even imagine the costs this means for ISP's.This could quickly add up to terrabytes of data. And massive backup headaches.... and oh, if the data is corrupted or destroyed, do the ISP's face massive fines and punitive damages?
And once such data is being recorded for DOJ requirements, won't this mean that divorce attorneys and employers and others will be able to sue for access to a person's history?
This is just bad all around. Consumers and customers will pay for it in every way. | |
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ARGONAUTHave a nice day. Premium Member join:2006-01-24 New Albany, IN |
ARGONAUT
Premium Member
2011-Jan-25 7:10 pm
A database by any other name..This is just another database for intelligence agencies to play with.
When working up a profile online activities is no different than collecting information on what books are bought and checked out at the library.
The child porn stuff is just smoke. | |
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doc69 Premium Member join:2004-08-01 |
doc69
Premium Member
2011-Jan-26 12:09 am
Wow!!!CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL... Why do you people try to turn this into a debate? Three words CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. There no more debate. Move along people there's nothing else to see here. Wow... | |
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SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature. Premium Member join:2000-08-05 united state |
Snakeoil
Premium Member
2011-Jan-26 7:48 am
The day this happens is the day I disconnect.IMO, this also would have a major impact on the 1st amendment. Lets say you visit many anti-government sites, speak out harshly against the current regime. Then you could be labeled as a terrorist and rounded up and put away.
Maybe the fed should go to China/North Korea and ask them to run our internet over here. | |
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