SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT
1 recommendation |
Duh..They're expecting an unshielded copper pair to handle modern bandwidth demands?
It's rather obvious on why it can't handle squat. | |
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Re: Duh.." They're expecting an unshielded copper pair to handle modern bandwidth demands?"
The copper pair will only be unshielded in most cases the length of the drop from the terminal to house. Cable is shielded, or at least it always was during my almost 30 years with SWB/SBC/AT&T. | |
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| | SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT ·StarLink
1 recommendation |
Re: Duh..said by Austinloop:The copper pair will only be unshielded in most cases the length of the drop from the terminal to house. Cable is shielded, or at least it always was during my almost 30 years with SWB/SBC/AT&T. The problem is, most areas are still using the decades-old lines without hope of updating them or even checking on them for damage or signs of old age. Most copper pairs are not certified for anything else besides voice, and even that is iffy. | |
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Re: Duh..That wasn't what you said in your original statement. How would you suggest checking for damage on buried cables? Dig them up every how many years?
For example, the cable that serves my house was placed pre 1979 and has no problems. I get a full 25 meg profile on U-Verse. | |
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to SimbaSeven
said by SimbaSeven: Most copper pairs are not certified for anything else besides voice. That is true but DSL is designed to work over copper. The larger issue is distance. If the circuit is short DSL works just fine. The problem is to compete with Cable circuit needs to be shorter then 10,000 feet which requires investment in expensive remote terminals. /tom | |
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Re: Duh..Lets correct your statement a little.
To compete with Cable, DSL needs lines to be shorter than 1000ft. | |
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| | | | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA |
Re: Duh..Let's split the difference. I am doing just fine on 3,300; let's call it 3,500 feet max. | |
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to Skippy25
You are wrong. With pair bonding, DSL can provide speeds of over 10 mbps or more at 10,000 feet. | |
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| | | | | ·Consolidated Com.. ·Republic Wireless ·Hollis Hosting
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to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:To compete with Cable, DSL needs lines to be shorter than 1000ft. Well I guess that all depends on your definition of "compete." VDSL2 can deliver 15Mbp/s rates out to 3kft and 8 to about 7kft. But you are correct Cable is able to deliver significant speed over the coaxial portion of the network between the node and customer. Another important consideration is how well the ISP has provisioned their internal network and peering. Fast first-mile access is wasted if they are unable to move the data within their network and get it to the Internet. /tom | |
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| | | | | | silbaco Premium Member join:2009-08-03 USA |
silbaco
Premium Member
2012-Oct-16 12:50 pm
Re: Duh..VDSL2 can do better than that. 50mbps at 3300ft without bonding. 100mbps can be achieved if within 1600ft, still without bonding. Finland has several providers offering 100mbps on VDSL2. | |
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| | | | | | | SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT ·StarLink
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Re: Duh..said by silbaco:VDSL2 can do better than that. 50mbps at 3300ft without bonding. 100mbps can be achieved if within 1600ft, still without bonding. Finland has several providers offering 100mbps on VDSL2. Too bad we won't have that for quite awhile. Not to mention, ADSL is still widely used throughout this country. | |
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| | | | | | | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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Re: Duh..said by SimbaSeven:Too bad we won't have that for quite awhile. Not to mention, ADSL is still widely used throughout this country. AT&T is actually retiring ADSL equipment in their 22 states as they move users to "IPDSLAM"; which is either ADSL2+, or VDSL, depending on the location. MT is CenturyLink, yes? | |
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| | | | | | | | | SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT ·StarLink
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Re: Duh..said by NormanS:MT is CenturyLink, yes? Unfortunately, yes. I doubt CL will ever upgrade this state to anything besides ADSL. Heck, Optimum is kicking the crap out of them at the moment (30x5 vs 5x896k). They don't seem to care. | |
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| | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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to SimbaSeven
said by SimbaSeven:The problem is, most areas are still using the decades-old lines without hope of updating them or even checking on them for damage or signs of old age.
Most copper pairs are not certified for anything else besides voice, and even that is iffy. Probably true for Qwest/CenturyLink. But I see a lot of new, aerial copper in SBC/AT&T areas I travel through. | |
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to SimbaSeven
don't forget stuff like analog pair gain systems, which is what I was on (still am as far as I know). this is old technology and is limited to ISDN speeds (128K). I never could get DSL (and still don't think I can) because they didn't want to upgrade that part of the system. | |
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to SimbaSeven
I Live ~3mi away from the terminal that my (qwest) CenturyLink DSL comes through. Because of a glitch i know even our 40 year old bell telephone line can handle 3.3mbit. After i informed a tech of this apparent glitch they dropped us back to the 1.3 we were getting before. the problem is the terminal is only fed by T1 circuits (8 per DSLAM, with one DSLAM providing 139 different connections) so it wasnt working at all. if they ran fiber to the terminal im sure we could all get at least 3.5 out here. more if they put a new terminal in closer to my house.....
Actually, there is already PUD owned fiber optic lines 150ft from my front door, i really hope CL uses one of their lines to put a terminal closer to my house on...... | |
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| | SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT |
Re: Duh..Nice upload you have there. | |
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| | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA |
Re: Duh..If I thought I really needed it, I'd get tech support to put me on Annex M; trade off some download for more upload. | |
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Re: Duh..said by masterstars :i pay 77.73 a mouth for comcast highspeed performance Is that the price of the bundled service (double play/triple play)? Is that a promotional term price? Looks kind of low for standard bundled price. | |
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| | | | SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT |
Re: Duh..I paid $64.95 for Optimum's 30x5 package here. | |
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masterstars to NormanS
Anon
2012-Oct-18 6:37 am
to NormanS
it's basic cable + high speed performance. double play.. and no it's not the promotion price. | |
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| | | | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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Re: Duh..said by masterstars :it's basic cable + high speed performance. double play.. and no it's not the promotion price. Okay. So you are not paying $77.73 for Internet. You are paying $77.73 for Internet + Basic TV. | |
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masterstars
Anon
2012-Oct-22 8:46 pm
Re: Duh..technically yes, to just get the internet by it's self is much more expensive. | |
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| AZinOH join:2007-04-25 Swanton, OH |
to SimbaSeven
My 12MB DSL serves my need & I will keep it until it does not:
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| | nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
1 recommendation |
nunya
MVM
2012-Oct-16 1:42 pm
Re: Duh.. | |
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| | | NormanSI gave her time to steal my mind away MVM join:2001-02-14 San Jose, CA TP-Link TD-8616 Asus RT-AC66U B1 Netgear FR114P
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Re: Duh..said by nunya:When I see the speeds people are still putting up with from DSL, it's laughable compared to cable. When I see the bill for such amazing speeds, I gag. Comcast, the local MSO, wants not just my firstborn son, but my left nut as well, for that kind of speed. But they admittedly do have a crumb to toss my way: Xfinity Economy. DSL speed for DSL price. | |
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| | | | dnoyeBFerrous Phallus join:2000-10-09 Southfield, MI |
dnoyeB
Member
2012-Oct-16 4:18 pm
Re: Duh..Agree completely. The Economy tier is killer. I don't know what all this 'speed' is about. Who needs it? Whats the most a home user will do;
watch some streaming video play games read email
That is all less than 1mbps. WTH do I need 50mb? I've been trying to get some cheap DSL for years but their service to my house is crap and they really don't care to figure out why. (new house) | |
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| | | AZinOH join:2007-04-25 Swanton, OH |
to nunya
If you're happy with that speed & the price tag, that's fine. I don't care about that much speed and will never care about it. When & if DSL does fail, I'll happily switch to cable and pay whatever it costs. Until then, I'm good with what I have and what I pay and I don't need a "feel good feeling" about having such fast speeds.
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| | | | nunyaLXI 483 MVM join:2000-12-23 O Fallon, MO ·Charter
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nunya
MVM
2012-Oct-16 7:40 pm
Re: Duh..At the current price, I'm happy. In Feb., I probably won't be happy. Charter Cable has a new head honcho, and he seems hellbent on pissing customers off. They've made some pretty poor business decisions in the pas few months. I'm only on the 100 package because of the usage caps. I do not have cable and we stream everything on many TVs and in HD to boot. The speeds on 30 would be fine for me, the cap is what's worrisome.
Right now I pay $60 / mo for the 100 package. I do not have phone or video service. That's set to increase to around $100+ when my promo expires. I think Charter's internet service is great. I think their online support personnel are great as well. I just don't think the service is $100 / mo great. | |
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to nunya
I think there is a future for WISPs. Local and national. That speed test is what I currently have here in SF, $35/month, not a dime extra. That awesome up speed is great for many things these days. Online backups, video conferencing is what I use thie most. | |
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| tobyTroy Mcclure join:2001-11-13 Seattle, WA |
to SimbaSeven
said by SimbaSeven:They're expecting an unshielded copper pair to handle modern bandwidth demands?
It's rather obvious on why it can't handle squat. It is not the phone wire where the problem is, it is the company that owns the wires. Rural phone companies have no competition, so why should they feel the need to spend a cent on anything. | |
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Happier With DSLI switched to DSL after moving. I had cable before. I get 12 Meg download speed and 768 K up. The speed is slightly faster for a couple bucks more than what I was paying for 10Meg Cable, and the huge advantage is my ping times in WoW have been cut by almost 50%. Makes cable look really bad. My only gripe is that both cable and DSL ISPs are stingy with upload speed. | |
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·Consolidated Com.. ·Republic Wireless ·Hollis Hosting
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DSL vs CableI had been a fan of DSL years ago during the early rollout of high speed access.
However DSL is distance limited so without investment in remote terminals to reduce wire length typical phone loops are limited to a few megabits per second at best.
The holy grail is fiber to the premise (FTTP) but that will be a long time coming for most of us. I'm stuck at 3Mbp/s ADSL. Service is stable but it does limit how we can use our access.
/tom | |
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lordfly join:2000-10-12 Homestead, FL
1 recommendation |
lordfly
Member
2012-Oct-16 10:55 am
WISP kills DSLI had DSL and barely could get 1 meg downloads with pings >500. I really got pissed and AT&T did everything they could to re-tune the line, but I just live in an old neighborhood. We aren't even slated for Uverse it is so bad.
My WISP tower is only a couple of miles away and I get 10/3 speeds with 20ms pings. It works no matter what. Even when the wind gets up, it is raining really hard, and my transceiver is swinging back and forth in the wind I still get the same speeds. With DSL a little bit of wind or rain and it went to crap.
DSL is old technology that should go the way of dial-up.
Oh, and my cost is $40/mo flat. No taxes, fees or commitments. It is run by a local business so my money stays local. | |
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Re: WISP kills DSLThe house I bought can only get 1.5 meg DSL from Centurylink or some over priced plan from Comcast. I opted for the local home-brew WISP and get a deal similar to yours. I can run multiple Netflix streams and run VOIP and have had no issues. The service is rock solid. There are no caps or throttling, extra fees, contracts, or equipment to rent/buy. I plan on keeping with them for a long time.
The WISP I went with isn't even the only WISP in the area. It just happens to be the one with the best rates and best service. | |
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| sparks join:2001-07-08 Little Rock, AR
1 recommendation |
to lordfly
well I talked to one of them in my city and got some answers that I thought I was talking to AT&T it was $59 a month for residential how fast oh its fast how fast its 50 times faster than dialup how fast its fast
lol | |
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skeechanAi Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 |
skeechan
Premium Member
2012-Oct-16 11:20 am
In other news, Sun rises in the EastAnyone surprised? If DSL was used as a retention service it would be one thing, but telcos charge as if it were a 50Mb service, requiring expensive POTS or charing huge extras for stand-alone service. And then if you pony up for POTS you have all of the associated taxes and junk fees. Even $15 DSL isn't anywhere close to $15. | |
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1 recommendation |
Mr Matt
Member
2012-Oct-16 11:31 am
Teleco's to stingy to provide sufficient backhaul!I temporarily have both Comcast broadband and CenturyLink DSL. It appears that Centurylink is too stingy to upgrade their network to provide sufficient back haul capacity. I am paying for 10 Megs down and 768K up. I get that speed during off peak times. In the evening I have trouble downloading video from YouTube and other video sources. My speed drops from 10 Mbps to under 3 Mbps. I always get the speed I am paying for during low traffic periods like 1AM or 7AM on Sunday. The problem is not with the last mile it is the lack of capacity to connect the remote terminal to their broadband network. The fact that CenturyLink is offering Prism Television in this area exaggerates the problem because the prism video streams get priority over subscriber data transmission. | |
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Re: Teleco's to stingy to provide sufficient backhaul!I have same issue. Here in Northern Indiana, between 5pm-1/2am, this is the connection I get: » speedtest.net/result/225 ··· 2048.png which is actually better than it normally is during said time frame. Any other time of day, ping hovers around 15ms with a d/l of 4.10mbps and an u/l of 0.37mbps. Yet, calling CL tech support to complain or ask for help, they say nothing is wrong with the line, oh, get this, that speedtest I posted link for, that ping and those speeds, are apparently completely acceptable and require no ticket to be submitted. And if I happen to get a tech agent willing to help, he sets up a time to have an service tech come out. How convenient for them that their service techs can't come out to your place after 5pm, when the majority of the problems happen. | |
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DSL can provide high speeds!Want proof? Take a look at U-Verse, which is DSL and can do upwards of 25 mbps down/8 up. With pair bonding this number can be doubled. With regards to shielded wire vs unshielded, yes copper pairs are unshielded, but it doesn't matter as long as they are TWISTED. See, most noise and crosstalk is common mode, which means that it is referenced to ground. If you twist pairs, the noise gets induced (coupled) into each of the two wires in the pair equally - and can easily be filtered out by an input stage that only responds to the difference in the two wires of the pair, while rejecting stuff that appears equally in both. This is why PA systems with balanced microphones can be hum free over thousands of feet, while there is a practical limit of 25 or so feet when running an unbalanced microphone.
In theory, DSL lines should be getting better, because the biggest noise component is crosstalk (signals from one pair leaking into an adjacent pair). The reason this is true is simple - the fewer 'hi pot' services in a cable, the less crosstalk. Since T1 lines are now less popular then before there are simply fewer of them around. Same thing with POTS service - when phone rings it puts 90 plus volts of 25 Hz AC across the pair. Less phones ringing because fewer people have home phone service means less crosstalk. Unfortunately, most telcos have been lax in keeping up their copper cables and things like bad splices and water ingress can make a good cable unusable for DSL.
Oh, one more thing--- the statement that Verizon has stopped FiOS deployment is simply not true. I have friends that tell me they are still stringing fiber to new neighborhoods in Philadelphia. If Verizon were smart they would start deploying a U-Verse product at the end of each fiber. This way they could have the best of both worlds. | |
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| contsole Premium Member join:2003-12-30 Newington, CT |
contsole
Premium Member
2012-Oct-22 8:32 am
Re: DSL can provide high speeds!said by qworster: With regards to shielded wire vs unshielded, yes copper pairs are unshielded, but it doesn't matter as long as they are TWISTED. AT&T restrung my street for U-verse but I see the 300' drop to my house is still Not twisted. I wonder if they would replace it if I subscribed? | |
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camperjust visiting this planet Premium Member join:2010-03-21 Bethel, CT |
camper
Premium Member
2012-Oct-16 12:56 pm
No surpriseFor me, the thing that chased me away from DSL was AT&T's attitude.
(this was a few years ago)
I called AT&T and asked about their DSL service. When I asked them what speeds are available, I was told "up to 8mbps" and "up to 6mbps".
Hearing the "up to" weasel words, I asked if they could tell me before I sign up what speed I could expect, and they answered "no", that I would have to sign up for the service (one year contract, minimum) and then see what speed I got.
So I asked if I sign up for the "up to 8mbps" service, and I get less than 6mbps, would I have to pay for the "up to 8mpbs" service or would I fall back to paying for the "up to 6mbps" service.
I was told that since I signed up for the "up to 8mbps" service, I would have to pay for that level of service for the length of the contract.
At that point, I moved over to Comcast HSI. | |
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sparks join:2001-07-08 Little Rock, AR 1 edit |
sparks
Member
2012-Oct-16 1:12 pm
AT& hahahahahawell I am 330 ft from the bit bad AT&T box in my neighborhood BUT its across the street and its 2700 feet of wire to get to my house. I do ok at 6mb on dsl but they could not get uverse to work. Said there are soooooo many wire changes and splices and taps in the lines nothing is going to work. SO now what. Put in new wires and hope people go with them?
Yea we are cancelling dsl in november but they are still running $14 promo ads in my area for dsl.
Overall AT&T just rapes their users and pays the bosses big bucks. Of couse when I see what the wireless morons pay and say thanks I know its a lost cause to complain or ask for anything better.
I like this statement but you didn't finish $15/mo for a POTS line isn't a bad deal, nor would $15 + 6% sales tax. The problem is all of the additional taxes/fees that have been tacked on over the years.
No those fees supply the bribes they pay to the fcc and the senators they own, the rest then goes to the company execs.
The one good thing about dsl is the pings and the huge advantage is my ping times in WoW have been cut by almost 50%. Makes cable look really bad.
I get pings even thru the spy system of about 60ms on bf3 my buddy on the same block with comcast is over 100ms. | |
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And in other newsI'm waiting for a J.D. Power study that says VHS can't keep up with the demands of HDTV. Even with an S-Video connection using S-VHS there is serious picture degradation compared to the provided DVRs. | |
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| silbaco Premium Member join:2009-08-03 USA |
silbaco
Premium Member
2012-Oct-17 1:51 am
Re: And in other newsAlready been done. "Most VHS machines cannot provide a high-definition picture or sound (high-definition VHS is called D-VHS, but it is not in widespread use)." » www.jdpower.com/content/ ··· ater.htm | |
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tbessie join:2001-05-13 San Francisco, CA |
I chose DSL based on customer service, not absolute speedMy ISP is SONIC (which several other people here have) - they are the most friendly, competent and effective ISP I've ever had. After years of "legacy DSL", and then a year or so of "Fusion DSL", I recently got "bonded Fusion DSL" (2 wire pairs active), and tho' not exactly blistering, I'm getting decent speeds:
I'm paying quite a bit more than I'd like, but I'd rather pay that than pay slightly less and have to deal with Comcast. Sonic is dedicated to protecting user privacy, and puts me in touch with customer service people who are actually technically competent (as opposed, for example, to the AT&T drone I spoke with last night who tried to help me with the "unplug it, wait X minutes, plug it in again" method of fixing something (it was actually a firewall issue, which I figured out)).
Until we get last-mile fiber or a new technology, I'm stuck with these speeds, I think. And last-mile fiber is being introduced to San Francisco V E R Y S L O W L Y.
Funny, considering how we're the heart of the technology sector 'round these parts.
- Tim
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AVDRespice, Adspice, Prospice Premium Member join:2003-02-06 Onion, NJ |
AVD
Premium Member
2012-Oct-21 1:10 am
how did the telegraph do?or smoke signals or carrier pigeons? or ISDN? or the pony express? | |
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