site Search:


 
   
story category
Debate Rekindled Over Forcing ISPs to Retain User Logs
Latest Bill Hung Up Over Exclusion of Wireless Carriers
by Karl Bode Wednesday 13-Jul-2011 tags: legal · business · privacy · consumers
For much of the last decade the U.S. government has been trying to force data retention requirements on ISPs, most frequently under the banner of fighting child pornography. New bills seem to pop up every year or so, though privacy advocates have traditionally beaten such efforts back. Mandatory ISP data retention was something you'll recall was a priority for the Bush/Gonzales Justice Department, and (much like warrantless wiretapping) is now being championed by the Obama Administration Justice Department.

The latest effort is H.R. 1981: Protecting Children From Internet Pornographers Act of 2011, and is the focus of hearings this week. The bill has support from the The National Sheriffs' Association, who insisted this week the lack of log retention "significantly hinders law enforcement's ability to identify predators when they come across child pornography." However eager law enforcement is for the new law, it appears to have hit a stumbling block -- in that wireless carriers (and hotspot owners) have been excluded, largely due to wireless carrier lobbying. That's resulted in some politicians -- including this latest bill's sponsor -- to have second thoughts.

... during today's hearing before Sensenbrenner's crime subcommittee, even the sponsor of H.R. 1981, current Judiciary chairman Lamar Smith (R-Tex.) acknowledged that there were problems with the legislation. We want to "figure out a way so that we do not exempt wireless providers," Smith said. That exemption apparently came about after lobbying from wireless companies, and has already drawn sharp criticism from the Justice Department.

Again, while child pornography is used as the PR face to try and get these laws passed, the primary focus is extending the nation's domestic surveillance capabilities. Or, as the case often is, retroactively making things that the government has already been doing for years, retroactively legal. Groups like EPIC continue to protest the bill, arguing that the collection of more data means more leaked data during security breaches, and the expanded authority will be used well beyond child pornography investigations.

view: topics flat text 
Post a:

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

These days ....

If a bill has "Protecting" "Children" "Pornography" or "Terrorism" in the title that means we should RUN not walk away from it as fast as possible.

It's actually designed to do none of that, just get passed chock full of new draconian monitoring or recording on regular American citizens.... and that is a fact.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
gorehound

join:2009-06-19
Portland, ME

Re: These days ....

just another step towards a real police state.
fuck off us government.i hate your guts.
ohpamerican

join:2011-07-15
Stockton, CA
I agree with you 100% couldn't have said it any better, just wish that this "ALL ABOUT ME" generation would wake up before it's to late, but I guess as long as they have their i pads, and smartphones, and Xbox's they are pacified. Just how the Government, and the Obama Administration likes it.

Romney2012
Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe in
Premium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4

Forcing ISPs to retain something most do anyway

The only thing this law does that ISPs aren't already doing is set how long to retain user logs. The only thing I'd change would be to not exempt wireless carriers. Make all ISPs keep logs for 18 months.
--
Record your speedtest.net results in DSLReports SpeedWave
»www.speedtest.net/wave/afe201cb84d45c88

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

Re: Forcing ISPs to retain something most do anyway

This law does more then that and will cost way more then that. I find it interesting that it's all about "Accepting money to facilitate access to child pornography". The record retention thing is merely a byline.... however I feel it's the REAL purpose behind the bill.

Once this database is up, then it can easily be expanded to all sorts of other "investigations" or fishing trips.

Only a matter of time.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
·row44
said by Romney2012:

The only thing this law does that ISPs aren't already doing is set how long to retain user logs. The only thing I'd change would be to not exempt wireless carriers. Make all ISPs keep logs for 18 months.

Or how about pass a law that forces ISP to never keep logs.
Customers are not paying for them to log what they do.
Privacy should win here.

All they will do is force people to use 3rd party VPNs from foreign countries for about $10 a month. It is bullshit that you will have to pay more for privacy when privacy can come from your ISP and actually save your ISP money in costs.
--
...brought to you by Carl's Jr.

Jefferson

@verizon.net

Re: Forcing ISPs to retain something most do anyway

The next step is of course to outlaw or more likely license encryption (see another post about being forced to provide decryption passwords for your encrypted drive). Since VPNs depend on encryption, so much for that remedy.
We have altogether lost the healthy suspicion of law "enforcement" that inspired the founders of the USA to embed strong protections in the Constitution. Americans would be astounded to know about the amount of surveillance technology they've paid "our" government to buy and deploy against us, or more specifically those targeted by the wealthy and powerful.

notagainplz

@anonymouse.org

time to move

It's time to move to the Middle East where they are enjoying actual freedom after 30-40 years of western oppression. The corruption that g.w. Bush instilled on the western world will make us all even more a slave population that will be monitored and detained and maybe disappear in the dark of the night.

martial law is fun. also called patriot act, protect america act, protect canada act, protect the copyright mafiaa act, forget the constitution ever existed act.

Romney2012
Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe in
Premium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4

Re: time to move

said by notagainplz :

It's time to move to the Middle East where they are enjoying actual freedom after 30-40 years of western oppression.

Middle East and actual freedom is still a joke. If you think otherwise you are sadly deluded.
--
Record your speedtest.net results in DSLReports SpeedWave
»www.speedtest.net/wave/afe201cb84d45c88

FBGuy
yippee ki yay
Premium
join:2005-03-19

Re: time to move

at least they know when they are getting f***ed. Here in the US we delude ourselves into think we are never getting f***ed.
Kamus

join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX
said by notagainplz :

It's time to move to the Middle East where they are enjoying actual freedom after 30-40 years of western oppression. The corruption that g.w. Bush instilled on the western world will make us all even more a slave population that will be monitored and detained and maybe disappear in the dark of the night.

martial law is fun. also called patriot act, protect america act, protect canada act, protect the copyright mafiaa act, forget the constitution ever existed act.

What? sure we got some really nasty things that need addressing here in the west, but you're not serious... are you?

Also, i hope you're not a woman and saying this, this is seriously the most retarded thing I've read all month.

Corehhi

join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC
Reviews:
·Hargray Cable

Wireless industry

Money talks BS walks, nice score on the exemption. The big problem for carriers is all the requests and extra crap that will be requested from them. Think a whole department of poeple working 24X7 doing what ever gov. tells them to. That's really what this is all about.
innoman
-
Premium
join:2002-05-07
Dallas, TX
kudos:1

right...

I want accurate data on how frequently this type of info has been used in cases of Child Pornography, etc...
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

No, ISPs do not all keep such logs.

In fact, my ISP cannot keep such logs, because most of our users do not have public, static IPs. Due to the impending exhaustion of IPv4 addresses, most use network address translation and share a handful of addresses.

tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: No, ISPs do not all keep such logs.

then you can log which IP was feeding which internal address at what time, no different than what the big boys do.
It is possible, but perhaps an excessively large task for the small ISP.
I'm not sure why the extended time frame is needed.
certainly ISP's should keep such records for a limited time, and if the gov't hasn't found reasonable cause to subpoena in say a year they should be considered out of date/out of luck.
and yes I would consider the ISP responsible for the record safekeeping, that they should not be used or released for any other purpose then a valid individual court order (no mass harvesting).
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

1 edit

Re: No, ISPs do not all keep such logs.

You obviously do not understand how network address translation works. All the customers appear to have the same address, and the router makes tens of thousands of mappings between ports every SECOND (infeasible to log).
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·CenturyLink
·Comcast
·Embarq Now Centu..
·Millenicom

Police want unlimited power to snoop on citizens.

It looks like the government would like to monitor all citizens activities just in case they might have unapproved thoughts and engage in unapproved not illegal activities.

People are naive and do not understand how their privacy is slowly eroding. Anything that passes through a broadband connection can be copied and retained unless the communication is encrypted.

One of the schemes that prosecutors used to justify prosecuting Casey Anthony was the fact that there was two searches for information on chloroform on the families shared computer without any way to determine who made the searches.

What if some guest downloads material that is a felony without your knowledge through your broadband connection. Later you might find yourself caught up in a police dragnet without having broken any laws when the police start snooping through retained data on prior activities. The next thing that would happen would be requiring the victim of police overreach to prove their innocence in an environment where one is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
old_wiz_60

join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA

Hyprocrisy.

At the same time they want the ISPs to retain the logs, they are castigating Belarus for actually doing it.

When we do it, it is to prevent "child pornography", when other countries do it it is an infringement of civil rights. bah.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Jurisdiction

Isn't that the FBI's job? What are all these sheriffs doing drooling over kiddies and operating treasure hunts for pedos' stashes?
PacketExodus

join:2010-07-26
Reviews:
·buckeye cable

Not Enforceable, Not Practical, Not Going To Happen

You can't economically log, categorize and securely store for 18 months that amount of data. It would be too costly, too much of a burden on the smaller regional ISP's and their resellers. They will not be coerced into retaining user logs any longer than what's necessary for them to manage their network. And besides, this is the government we're talking about. The effort to fight child pornography is a red herring. They don't give a damn about 'the children'. It's about corporate espionage and domestic surveillance of dissenting individuals. The sheriffs that are sponsoring the bill have all the tools they need to do their jobs effectively. They don't need any more toys. They outta get off their asses and stop complaining about the inconveniences associated with law enforcement.

O Really

@verizon.net

Re: Not Enforceable, Not Practical, Not Going To Happen

All costs associated with extra storage for logs will come in the form of price increases. Everyone will do it at nearly the same time and add a line on the bill "government mandate charge". The cell companies have this down to a fine art.
Where's the T party stand on privacy, I wonder.

FBGuy
yippee ki yay
Premium
join:2005-03-19

good grief

we are going to protect ourselves into oblivion eventually. protections of these kind are absolutely unnecessary.

Sad Sack

@verizon.net

Re: good grief

The land of the free and the home of the brave? Fooled me ...

ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

I know why.

Their central database is either too overloaded with recording internet traffic as it stands or they simply want to offload some of the logging to ISP's which will soon be run by the Ministry of Communications in a decade or so.

Monday, 04-Jun 00:37:37 Terms of Use & Privacy | feedback | contact | Hosting by nac.net - DSL,Hosting & Co-lo
over 12.5 years online © 1999-2012 dslreports.com.