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Dem Lawmaker: NSA Leaks Just Tip Of the Iceberg
Which Of Course is What NSA Leakers Have Been Saying
Last week's latest leaks about the NSA's domestic spy capabilities are only just the "tip of the iceberg," according to one Democratic politician briefed on the programs. Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.) made that statement after being briefed on Tuesday about the NSA's programs by counterterrorism officials. "What we learned in there," Sanchez said, "is significantly more than what is out in the media today." If you've actually read what previous NSA and carrier whistle blowers have been saying for ten years (and it's increasingly obvious that most of the press has not), the depth of the NSA's surveillance rabbit hole shouldn't be particularly surprising.
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Beans5
join:2005-07-16
united state

Beans5

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The Rabbit Hole

Brings back memories.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· irSi08m4

Probitas
@teksavvy.com

Probitas

Anon

it's funny if one new when to laugh

As time goes by, the USA is actually becoming the enemy they wish to capture, as increasingly they engage in the exact same methods their purported enemies engage in. At this point, their moral high horse has kicked them to the curb, taken a dump and a leak on their carcass, and gone on it's merry way.

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

TechyDad

Premium Member

Re: it's funny if one new when to laugh

I'd joke "If we don't use the tactics that our enemies use then we'll never beat them", but - sadly - too many people believe that to be true.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

CXM_Splicer

Premium Member

Re: it's funny if one new when to laugh

Yes, the same corporate kool-aid bringing us down the spiral... 'We must remain competitive!'

KodiacZiller
Premium Member
join:2008-09-04
73368

1 recommendation

KodiacZiller to Probitas

Premium Member

to Probitas
said by Probitas :

As time goes by, the USA is actually becoming the enemy they wish to capture, as increasingly they engage in the exact same methods their purported enemies engage in. At this point, their moral high horse has kicked them to the curb, taken a dump and a leak on their carcass, and gone on it's merry way.

Yep, wasn't it Bush who said we wont stoop to their level? Who said that America will not change it's values about freedom and democracy? The whole time it appears the government has been working secretly to undermine all of our values just to catch a few terrorists. Our actions have proven the "terrorists have won." No, they don't get by with much actual violence anymore, but they have changed our whole system of government to one of a surveillance state.

America is no better than China or old Eastern bloc Europe. Indeed China as well as the old Stasi would be jealous of NSA's capabilities of spying on its citizens.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK

Premium Member

Re: it's funny if one new when to laugh

The Chinese like to copy what we do. At least we have found something we can still be world leaders at---- spying on our own citizens. Indeed, China has something new to aspire to.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit

meeeeeeeeee

Member

The ONLY way

That THIS Government can retain ANY credibility with its people and the world is to have an immediate investigation of all the crimes committed, a speedy trial and meaningful sentences for ALL those responsible. ANYTHING else would be just another dog and pony show.
strange_69
join:2001-08-07
Ridgecrest, CA

strange_69

Member

Watergate???

Gee, I wonder how Prism would compare to Watergate wire-tapping? Anyone???

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: Watergate???

Prism and Watergate are quite different but that does not justify what is going on with Prism.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt to strange_69

Premium Member

to strange_69
Since Watergate was about a sitting president and his POLITICAL staff using public and private resources ILLEGALLY for personal and political gain.
Nobody (nobody reasonable) is suggesting this is for the benefit of any individual politician or party.
It's intended purpose is the security of the united states and all it's citizens residents and guests.
It has no comparison to Watergate, however Watergate and it's broad revelation were a watershed event which drove a large portion of the US public to publicly mistrust EVERYTHING the gov't attempts. This unthinking distrust is as part of the problem with US politics as is extreme amounts of money or the current TOTAL dysfunction within the congress.

We don't need another revolution, we need a little consistant cooperation and functional results.
Too much effort is going toward the game of politics, too little towards a better future for America and the world.

Mephisto13
join:2008-05-16
Gatineau, QC

1 recommendation

Mephisto13

Member

Re: Watergate???

said by tshirt:

Nobody (nobody reasonable) is suggesting this is for the benefit of any individual politician or party.

Actually, since there is no oversight, how can you be sure? Who's to say there isn't a politician or two who have abused this to spy on their political opponents to get an edge? It's not supposed to be used in that way...but since there is no oversight, who really knows what is happening behind closed doors...we just have to trust the government's word on this. And we know how far that can be thrown.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

2 edits

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

Apparently you are among the un-reasoned.
Do you really believe if the GOP leadership in congress (who are among the fully briefed) would sit back so complacently as they have been if this was purely for Obama/democratic purposes?
or visa versa?
does that make ANY sense at all?
oh' You are a French Canadian, go eat some stinky cheese
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium Member
join:2011-08-11
NYC

1 recommendation

CXM_Splicer

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

I would agree and I believe the people using these systems DO have the intentions of stopping our enemy (a/k/a the terrorists). The problem comes from who they consider their enemies tomorrow. Dissidents? The Tea Party? Gun Owners? Union organizers? Systems which provide the depth of information that these do are put to use, not limited.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

I agree it is a dangerous slope.
As I expressed before, I'm hoping this leads to greater oversight with as much transparency as possible.
ultimately having it twilight at a set point, say 10 years, unless the full congress can agree, after an explicit review that A} their is positive value (including publicizing detailed examples of completed cases.) and that there is NO deliberate/systemic abuse or damage intentional or not (with examples of how the agency backed away/compensated anyone accidently mis-identified.
OR some sort of bi-partisan oversight commission.

I believe these sort of systems if properly designed ARE BLIND (or should be) to sympathies of one race or religion or domestic political leaning and if only looking at patterns or phone #'s or email addresses SPECIFICALLY tied to TERRORIST/VIOLENT/economic actions against US interests SHOULD be it's ONLY purpose.

But people ranting it's illegal (congress et al authorized it and can de-authorize it at any time) or the end of the constitutional law, or time for revolution/overthrow of the gov't or all of congress should be voted out every time (which give sitting officials little reason to represent YOU) do little toward reasonable discussion of reasonable limits on this or any other issue.

KodiacZiller
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join:2008-09-04
73368

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KodiacZiller to tshirt

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to tshirt
said by tshirt:

Apparently you are among the un-reasoned.
Do you really believe if the GOP leadership in congress (who are among the fully briefed) would sit back so complacently as they have been if this was purely for Obama/democratic purposes?
or visa versa?
does that make ANY sense at all?
oh' You are a French Canadian, go eat some stinky cheese

Both parties have been convinced by the snake-oil salesmen at NSA (who themselves are in bed with contractors) that broad surveillance (and uprooting the constitution) is the best way to catch terrorists. In fact, most members of Congress know next to nothing about how the NSA operates, as evidenced by the article Karl posted above. Only the "gang of 8" really knows details and considering how out of touch some of those people seem in these briefings, I seriously doubt even they have any idea about the technical details. Do you think these 8 members of Congress sit around NSA all day "monitoring" them to ensure nothing illegal is going on? If not, who does? Some NSA ombudsman? Some pencil pushing bureaucrat?

At the end of the day, nothing will be changed. Once the government gets these powers, it will never give them up. Government always grows, it never gets smaller (sort of like the 2nd law of thermodynamics). The only question an average Joe should be asking himself is whether these technologies are worth the trade-off. Use the technologies and have everything you do be monitored (and stored in Utah), or don't use them and be free of surveillance. It's a choice we're all going to have to make as government surveillance will grow exponentially over the next decade.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

In fact all members of congress are entitled to briefing (some limited, depending on the tenure and requested info) but all members voted on the patriot act (due to shorter house terms SOME members currently serving are no longer those who voted.
and if you believe the NSA/secret gov't has ALREADY taken over
A} how did Snowden ever reach the press, let alone escape the country
B} WTF are YOU going to do about it (probably black helicopters above you right now)

KodiacZiller
Premium Member
join:2008-09-04
73368

KodiacZiller

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

said by tshirt:

In fact all members of congress are entitled to briefing (some limited, depending on the tenure and requested info) but all members voted on the patriot act (due to shorter house terms SOME members currently serving are no longer those who voted.

Most of the people who voted on the Patriot Act have admitted that they didn't read it (not an uncommon practice in Congress). The Patriot Act was nothing but security theater -- a way for Congress to shake their fists and proclaim they are "doing something" when in fact they were as helpless as the rest of us. No one was going to be able to detect it beforehand, Patriot Act or not. Sometimes the bad guys do get lucky - sometimes unforseen disasters happen. But that's no reason to uproot the constitution on a whim.

and if you believe the NSA/secret gov't has ALREADY taken over
A} how did Snowden ever reach the press, let alone escape the country

Because they presumed he was "one of them." He also had access to a lot of systems most users didn't (due to his system administration job). So he took a thumb drive in, copied a bunch of files, then left the country before anyone knew what happened.

B} WTF are YOU going to do about it (probably black helicopters above you right now)

*I* am not going to do anything about it. Indeed, no one can. The only choice us average citizens have is whether to participate in this electronic world of surveillance. And before you say "I have nothing to hide" perhaps you should read this piece on Wired. Molinspike destroys this argument quite beautifully.

»www.wired.com/opinion/20 ··· illance/

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

said by KodiacZiller:

Most of the people who voted on the Patriot Act have admitted that they didn't read it (not an uncommon practice in Congress). The Patriot Act was nothing but security theater -- a way for Congress to shake their fists and proclaim they are "doing something" when in fact they were as helpless as the rest of us. No one was going to be able to detect it beforehand, Patriot Act or not. Sometimes the bad guys do get lucky - sometimes unforseen disasters happen. But that's no reason to uproot the constitution on a whim..

In 2001 the original vote was in angry/being supportive of bush but it has been renewed several times (it has a 4 year sunset clause) where anger had no place.
Being a historic document referenced in many campaigns on both sides, you would think SOMEONE would have bothered to read, and attempt to understand it.
It's short (in DC terms)sunset was intended that it be temporary (as you might have marshall law special regulations in time of war)
OR that it would be adapted/adjust to fit the needs of the war on terror.
We have come to understand the war on terror is a forever thing but that doesn't mean the patriot act (or it's successor(s)) needs to be.

However it currently is in force, congress could (in theory) agree end or change it at any time, but until they do Obama and the gov't have the obligation to use every possible available resource.

If you want change tell your representatives THIS is job one.
However you'll need to remain supportive/accept the responsibility if it allows the next (inevitable) terror attack through.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Watergate???

said by tshirt:

If you want change tell your representatives THIS is job one.
However you'll need to remain supportive/accept the responsibility if it allows the next (inevitable) terror attack through.

LOL. THIS multi billion dollar, constitutional voiding fiasco hasn't stopped ANYTHING but the number of federal employees and contractors from going down. Our brilliant government has proven again and again that it is totally inept at collecting any meaningful intelligence EVEN WHEN IT IS HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER!! The most likely reason for this is because they have already decided who they want to target and the data they collect does not fit any of those targets. Our illustrious government is notorious for handing out contracts that say "This is the answer we want, so make the data fit".

"If you take away our toy the boogieman is gonna getcha". Well I'm sorry little government, but this time the toy you chose threatens the very core of why this nation was founded, what it is about and threatens to destroy it, so WE will have to be responsible adults and take the toy away. We'll continue to have our share of malcontents and mental defectives acting out, and each time little government will snivel "See!!! it's the boogieman", but we'll just have to be happy we preserved our nation.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

said by meeeeeeeeee:

said by tshirt:

If you want change tell your representatives THIS is job one.
However you'll need to remain supportive/accept the responsibility if it allows the next (inevitable) terror attack through.

LOL. THIS multi billion dollar, constitutional voiding fiasco hasn't stopped ANYTHING ....

And you ABSOLUTELY know this because....?

And you think the end goal/ entire purpose of this is?
just to extract money from YOU?
So they could have built an empty building a just said " expensive stuff happens inside, pay up" right? or told you they built a building on some military base so you can't see it, and pocketed the building cost too.
In fact you seem quite unhappy living in the US, our broadband sucks most people suck, the gov't really sucks, and has for years and political and economic powers assure change is impossible.

one might wonder why you stay.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 edit

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Watergate???

said by tshirt:

And you ABSOLUTELY know this because....?

Because I'm an adult with a mind who can see and think for himself. LOOK at all the "claimed terrorist" cases the government scares you children with. For God's sake USE what is between your ears instead of just blindly accepting what they push down your throat. OPEN your eyes and THINK, EVEN if it makes your head hurt!

Oh...and your ATTEMPT at a personal attack is pathetic and childish.
meeeeeeeeee

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meeeeeeeeee to Mephisto13

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to Mephisto13
said by Mephisto13:

said by tshirt:

Nobody (nobody reasonable) is suggesting this is for the benefit of any individual politician or party.

Actually, since there is no oversight, how can you be sure?

Actually, There IS oversite... It's just that Mr. Clapper and his co-conspirators feel that they have a RIGHT to LIE under oath to the United States Congress.
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom to tshirt

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to tshirt
Obama assigned that task to the IRS.
Expand your moderator at work

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

1 recommendation

karlmarx to Anon

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to Anon

Re: Watergate???

Who is to say that homeland security doesn't have access to the info? How about the IRS? Department of Agriculture? How about the Department of Transportation? What about the department of Education? The problem is that this wholesale collection of data may not be used against you today, the problem is that tomorrow, you may be 'the enemy of the state'. Ever gone to a protest, you're on the list. Maybe you aren't using the toilet right, and the Toilet Safety Administration will put you on the no fly list. Your car is blacklisted, so the local cops pull you over every time you drive. Maybe you've been to a protest, and you own a gun, you could be a problem. The possibilities of this data being used by the WRONG people are endless. The only solution, is to prevent the data from ever being collected in the first place. I love this country, I've been all over the world, and there is nothing like it. BUT, in the last 20 years, all that we've worked for over the last 200+ years is being destroyed to 'maybe' stop the scary 'terrist'. I for one, worry far more about being abused by my own government than I worry about terrorist.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

so there should be a purge for random info, and in fact likely is as storage of any size would rapidly overwhelm any usefully purpose this isn't a bucket it's a sieve looking for only red or blue or gold grains of sand in a vast white desert.
I doubt anyone but the NSA would have direct access, but some items might be directed to an appropriate agency for action.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

1 recommendation

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Watergate???

said by tshirt:

so there should be a purge for random info, and in fact likely is as storage of any size would rapidly overwhelm any usefully purpose this isn't a bucket it's a sieve looking for only red grains of sand.

It's much more like installing nets covering every inch of all the seas in order to catch a guppy. ONLY a Washington Bureaucrat could envision anything so stupid and intrusive. This is NOT being constructed for the guppy, but for enemies of The Party in the future.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

1 edit

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

You watch way to much bad TV

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Watergate???

I haven't even OWNED one for 5 years. No time to waste on drivel like Amerikans Idle.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: Watergate???

In this case
TV = streamed/web video, dvd's, downloads, even those 5700 "distro's" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) you weren't going to pay for anyway.

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

Re: Watergate???

said by tshirt:

In this case
TV = streamed/web video, dvd's, downloads, even those 5700 "distro's" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) you weren't going to pay for anyway.

Yes....Drivel. YOU on the other hand seem quite expert in it.
strange_69
join:2001-08-07
Ridgecrest, CA

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to tshirt
AP?
Expand your moderator at work
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

ISurfTooMuch

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Don't just tease us

If she believes this is even more serious than is being reported, she shouldn't just tease us; she should tell us about her specific concerns.

•••

GlennLouEarl
3 brothers, 1 gone
Premium Member
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA

GlennLouEarl

Premium Member

"Tip of the iceberg"

...and an error of Titanic proportions.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

1 recommendation

StuartMW

Premium Member

Re: "Tip of the iceberg"

And we all know what happened to the Titanic.
StuartMW

StuartMW

Premium Member

I don't trust them

Which is why I take the statements by Congresscritters and other officials with many grains of salt. IMO most of them couldn't find their own ass using both hands while others appear to have an agenda.

I have no doubt that the NSA is doing way more than we suspect but I don't see how we'll ever know for sure. The top people probably don't know or, like General Keith Alexander, have their own purpose.

»www.wired.com/threatleve ··· cyberwar

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: I don't trust them

said by StuartMW:

Which is why I take the statements by Congresscritters ..

Have you ever considered supporting one with whom you generally agree, BEFORE they reach congress and then as they advance politically , regularly contacting them and discussing issues and concerns you have.
even ones already in office are amazingly responsive to sensible individual letters and phone calls, mass emails and {insert your fake name here} web petitions carry much less weight and elicit no direct individual response, so vital to building a working relationship with YOUR* employee.

*you and others in your district, but like most things the squeaky worm gets the grease (attention) and has greater influence over the end result.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

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John Galt6

Premium Member

Interesting Article in Wired

»www.wired.com/threatleve ··· war/all/
wkm001
join:2009-12-14

wkm001

Member

On the upside

At least the NSA knows how full of crap the RIAA is. They know exactly how much torrenting goes on.
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

ISurfTooMuch

Member

We need a complete security audit

I think that, given what we know and what we suspect, we need a complete security audit of every major OS out there, including all current versions of Windows, OS X, Unix, Linux, iOS, Android, Windows Phone, and BlackBerry. Each one needs to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb to see whether they have built-in backdoors.

And it goes without saying that this needs to be done by one or more independent organizations, preferably more than one for each OS, and preferably in several countries.

And it will quite telling just to get the reactions of each of the vendors, especially if they're asked to provide any kind of assistance. And if the vendors protest, do it anyway. In fact, the more they protest, the more suspicious I'd be.

••••
Kamus
join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

Kamus

Member

And we thought the Chinese had it bad...

I was always sort of terrified when i read how bad the Chinese government spies on their own people. Monitoring phonecalls and cutting the call off if the conversation had words like "revolution" in them.
Or the Taxi cabs all being tapped, etc.
Turns out the US has been just as bad (or worse) all along.

Also. I can't help but think that with all this information available to whom it may be available to. There has got to be some HUGE financial benefit in using this ill gotten information.
gaforces (banned)
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA

2 edits

gaforces (banned)

Member

Re: And we thought the Chinese had it bad...

Welcome to the USA. Home of the brave. Land of the not so free after all.
And don't worry, they are keeping all the data at the NSA'a super duper secret secure mirrored EarthWorld Data Center. Only fired cops and off duty prison guards have access.