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story category Democrats Take Nap On Network Neutrality
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
(old news - 05:41PM Tuesday Apr 14 2009)
tags: legal · competition · fcc · business · Op/Ed · Politics · net-neutrality
With supposedly pro-network neutrality Democrats now in a position of power in Washington, network neutrality provisions protecting consumer choice were all but a given, right? Not so much. Jason Lee Miller pens an interesting piece highlighting how (so far) the song remains the same in Washington. Interim FCC boss Michael Copps has proposed a fifth network neutrality provision, kind of ignoring the fact the first four probably aren't even enforceable. Meanwhile, attempts to craft substantive guidelines keep getting torpedoed -- by both parties:
We're not surprised by Barton, a Texas Republican funded by Comcast and AT&T: that's historical par for the course. But Waxman's a Democrat, and Democrats are supposedly pro-net neutrality. Meanwhile, we should also be surprised by Dianne Feinstein's (D-CA) lame and failed attempt to sneak in "reasonable network management" provisions into the economic stimulus package as Waxman looked the other way.
Of course, one could easily argue that network neutrality legislation wouldn't be necessary if there was increased competition, since carriers would lose customers if they tried something stupid. But the jury remains out on what the FCC has planned on this front, and any effort to craft a comprehensive national broadband policy could find itself equally compromised by K-Street lobbyists. As Larry Lessig found with copyright issues, there are technology problems that may not be fixable unless we address some fundamental and truly bipartisan dysfunction first.

Related:
  1. Time Warner Cable: Let's Not Talk About Net Neutrality
  2. McDowell Gets Another Term At FCC
  3. Google Voice Ban Is Clear Network Neutrality Violation
  4. 5 Signs Our Broadband Plan May Already Be In Trouble
  5. Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
  6. FCC To Announce New Net Neutrality Rules Monday
  7. What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
  8. AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
Forums » Democrats Take Nap On Network Neutrality
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S_engineer

join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast

Bipartisan?

Because they work sooo well together.

This is a joke....what made anybody think things were going to be different?

Hook, Line, and sinker!
--
"When I was in junior high school, the teachers voted me the student most likely to end up in the electric chair."---Sylvestor Stallone

rawwhide
Zer0
Premium
join:2000-09-03
Zero
clubs:
·AT&T DSL Service

Re: Bipartisan?

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Because they work sooo well together.

This is a joke....what made anybody think things were going to be different?

Hook, Line, and sinker!
The more things change the more they stay the same.
--
To talk much and arrive nowhere is the same as climbing a tree to catch a fish.

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Fuck bi-partisanship. In most countries, whoever wins the election governs the country while the losers get to sit in the corner and make noise at random intervals.

If the other party had much better ideas for the country than the President and his administration, they would have won the election.

Bi-partisanship doesn't work. Never has. It's BS. You want to run the country?...convince your countrymen that your ideas are sound and win an election to get in power.
--
»www.Digium.com
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: Bipartisan?

said by kapil See Profile :

Fuck bi-partisanship. In most countries, whoever wins the election governs the country while the losers get to sit in the corner and make noise at random intervals.
In other countries, there is no "2 party system". In other countries there are a handful of parties constantly nipping at the main ones. Parties even form into various "platforms" and "blocks", they often leave those too. New parties come into existence, old ones die out and disappear regularly.

In the US, the 2 party system might as well be the 1 party system, may I see your papers please?

james

join:2001-02-26
antarctica

Re: Bipartisan?

said by patcat88 See Profile :

In other countries, there is no "2 party system". In other countries there are a handful of parties constantly nipping at the main ones. Parties even form into various "platforms" and "blocks", they often leave those too. New parties come into existence, old ones die out and disappear regularly.
This man speaks the truth.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
Hear hear!
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Because they work sooo well together.

.....
Au contraire - there is wide and deep bipartisanship when it comes to legislating for their corporate masters. K street is a little more "democratic", but it's still humming along nicely.

there won't be any competition until the telcos and cablecos stop calling the shots.
regmanabq

join:2006-10-18
Albuquerque, NM

Parties are a joke anyway, what ever happened to representing the people who elected you? Representatives are to represent the people, not parties.

Time to vote independent! Stop supporting the two party system which allows our congressmen and women to represent their friends instead of you and I.

old_dawg
"I Know Noting..."

join:2001-09-22
Westminster, MD

said by S_engineer See Profile :

Because they work sooo well together.

This is a joke....what made anybody think things were going to be different?

Hook, Line, and sinker stinker!
Fixed it for you.
--
"Our network engineers are aware of the problem..."

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

T.I.A.

This is where the country is heading. We have nobody to blame except ourselves

We the people elected these guys into office.

Time
Premium
join:2003-07-05
·Dish Network
·Cox HSI
·Embarq

Re: T.I.A.

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

This is where the country is heading. We have nobody to blame except ourselves

We the people elected these guys into office.
And continue to elect these individuals into office.

Did you people really believe things were going to be different?
Core0000
Premium
join:2008-05-04
Somerset, KY
·Windstream

I hate to say it.. but I actually agree.

This is why democracy sucks. The majority rules. Now if we still had a republic, maybe things would be different.. but then again,maybe if the south would have won?

Eh.. anyways, enough with my tangents..
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: T.I.A.

There are two inaccuracies in your post, kind of.. 1) we are not a "democracy"... and 2) Majority doesn't always rule here.

N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: T.I.A.

Actually, I believe you failed to understand his viewpoint.

He knows we are technically a Republic, but calls us a "democracy" (his quotation marks) to denote that when the masses realized they could send people to Washington to take other people's money and give it to them, we ceased being a Republic, and devolved to some sort of organized mob rule....

Nero fiddles as Rome burns, the emperor has no clothes and in the end, Obama is little, if at all different than his predecessor.

At least his flubs were his own, this guy has to get his from a Teleprompter.
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20

Re: T.I.A.

said by N3OGH See Profile :

Actually, I believe you failed to understand his viewpoint.

He knows we are technically a Republic, but calls us a "democracy" (his quotation marks) to denote that when the masses realized they could send people to Washington to take other people's money and give it to them, we ceased being a Republic, and devolved to some sort of organized mob rule....
I never assume that people know that and the quotes didn't give me indication when he backed it up by saying "majority rules".. It's amazing how many people DO believe we are a democracy and not a democratic republic as we elect our representatives and don't get a direct vote. There is a difference and many don't know it. They here the word "democracy" and apply the wrong definition.

...and.. to your other point.. Obama is an idiot!

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

said by N3OGH See Profile :

calls us a "democracy" (his quotation marks) to denote that when the masses realized they could send people to Washington to take other people's money and give it to them, we ceased being a Republic, and devolved to some sort of organized mob rule....
I have a funny feeling that you don't include taking the land of Native Americans (or imposing a system of slavery) within the meaning of "when the masses realized ..."

It seems like those who make a distinction about "democracy" and "republic" do so very selectively. Usually when it's their ox being gored -- as they live comfortably within a democratic republic established on the premise of never-ending frontiers, and "manifest destiny" (to take land from others).

Mark

N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL

Re: T.I.A.

Sorry, I wasn't around 150 years ago to throw smallpox infected blankets to Native American peoples in order to participate in "manifest destiny". My people came off the potato boat 2 generations ago and were greeted by signs in shop windows that stated "no Irish need apply".

Regardless of your origins, we all have some sort of transgression in our heritages. One Native American tribe warred with, and conquered another. The Germans oppressed the Polish, the English oppressed the Irish, the French laid down for everyone, and African tribesman sold the rival tribes they conquered into slavery.

So save your righteous indignation for someone else, eh?
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

Re: T.I.A.

said by N3OGH See Profile :

So save your righteous indignation for someone else, eh?
Hmm. I thought you were implying that the "mob" mentality was new, and we had lost a "republic."

My point was that things are pretty much the same today as they were 200 years ago. Better in some ways. Worse in others. Depending on how you're impacted by the "mob's" use of government.

I was simply questioning what sounded like a nostalgic version of the past.

Mark

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com


1 edit
said by Core0000 See Profile :

This is why democracy sucks. The majority rules. Now if we still had a republic, maybe things would be different..
Can you describe the difference between a republic and democracy? I hear people make insinuations all the time. But, for a republic to exist it must have been constituted by popular will, and continue to exist by the continued assent of the people. That sounds like "democracy" (the popular will of a past and present generation).

Likewise, republics always provide a means to amend themselves. For example, we have an amendment process. That too is based upon popular will (democracy).

A pure democracy would be where everyone takes a vote on every single issue. And (or) it wouldn't be impeded by various requirements to change the law.

We don't have either of those (with representative democracy, and a constitution requiring states to ratify constitutional amendments).

So, I never understand what people mean about how we're supposed to be a "republic."

said by Core0000 See Profile :

but then again, maybe if the south would have won?
We'd still have slavery?

We'd be under German and/or Japanese occupation (because we wouldn't have responded to WWI and II the way we did)?

We'd have more civil wars, as Missouri attacked Illinois over pollution, or the changing boundaries of the Mississippi river?

Yeah. Let's go back to the "good old days." It sounds so fetching.

Mark
Core0000
Premium
join:2008-05-04
Somerset, KY
·Windstream


2 edits

Re: T.I.A.

said by amigo_boy See Profile :

said by Core0000 See Profile :

This is why democracy sucks. The majority rules. Now if we still had a republic, maybe things would be different..
Can you describe the difference between a republic and democracy? I hear people make insinuations all the time. But, for a republic to exist it must have been constituted by popular will, and continue to exist by the continued assent of the people. That sounds like "democracy" (the popular will of a past and present generation).

Likewise, republics always provide a means to amend themselves. For example, we have an amendment process. That too is based upon popular will (democracy).

A pure democracy would be where everyone takes a vote on every single issue. And (or) it wouldn't be impeded by various requirements to change the law.

We don't have either of those (with representative democracy, and a constitution requiring states to ratify constitutional amendments).

So, I never understand what people mean about how we're supposed to be a "republic."

said by Core0000 See Profile :

but then again, maybe if the south would have won?
We'd still have slavery?

We'd be under German and/or Japanese occupation (because we wouldn't have responded to WWI and II the way we did)?

We'd have more civil wars, as Missouri attacked Illinois over pollution, or the changing boundaries of the Mississippi river?

Yeah. Let's go back to the "good old days." It sounds so fetching.

Mark
I am just now getting into a little bit of history, politics, financial policy, us trade deficit, etc.

So I may have made a mistake in the democracy/ republic bit. (Seems like I read somewhere we were founded as a republic) but who knows.. I have read so much stuff, I am starting to garble it all together mentally.

I thought a republic was more 'law of the land, common sense type deal' and democracy was 'we'll vote on something, and the majority wins, even if it doesn't make sense' in overly simplistic terms..

But, to rephrase what I originally said completely..

'There are a lot of entrenched interest in Washington, I vote but it doesn't count for squat, I send my representative letters, but it doesn't do squat... and it makes me feel very aggravated.'

As for if the south had won comment (Question mark), no I don't think slavery would have existed... I think it would of phased out, may have taken a bit longer.

But like I said, it was a question mark, so it was a "What would be different."

Anyways, I've still got a lot to learn. Hopefully you will have some patience with me.

Learning quite a bit from mises.org... very informative site..

ninjatutle
Premium

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

What the hell happened to this country

9.75% sales tax here for crying out loud. Freedom sure ain't free. It cost a lot of money and lives

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: T.I.A.

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

What the hell happened to this country
What happened to this country is that a lot of people started thinking that shit is free and doesn't cost money.

Defense, roads, schools....stuff costs money. You don't want to pay taxes?...move to Saudi Arabia where oil money pays for everything.
--
»www.Digium.com
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: T.I.A.

said by kapil See Profile :

Defense, roads, schools....stuff costs money. You don't want to pay taxes?...move to Saudi Arabia where oil money pays for everything.
Can't move there unless you can prove citizenship to before oil was discovered.

james

join:2001-02-26
antarctica

Re: T.I.A.

said by patcat88 See Profile :

Can't move there unless you can prove citizenship to before oil was discovered.
Don't worry, they make exceptions for the mega-rich, so there's still hope.

SLD
Premium
join:2002-04-17
Or unless you can prove oil drips out your ass.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

said by kapil See Profile :

Defense, roads, schools....stuff costs money. You don't want to pay taxes?...move to Saudi Arabia where oil money pays for everything.
Amen to that.

According to the IRS, half of all income earners pay almost all income tax collected. Perhaps the half that only pays a pittance should endure a tax hike so that these things can be paid for.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

kapil
The Kapil

join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL

Re: T.I.A.

said by pnh102 See Profile :

Amen to that.

According to the IRS, half of all income earners pay almost all income tax collected. Perhaps the half that only pays a pittance should endure a tax hike so that these things can be paid for.
You won't find me arguing against that. Everyone who earns an income should pay taxes. I'd even be okay with a flat tax rate for all income levels...as long as there are other social programs to help the needy.

Those who can afford to pay more, should.
--
»www.Digium.com

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

Re: T.I.A.

said by kapil See Profile :

I'd even be okay with a flat tax rate for all income levels
A "flat tax" is a myth. Even those who propose "flat taxes" propose a minimum income level for the "flat tax" to apply. In other words, that's two rates: 0% and 15% for anyone earning $12k per year.

So, even flat taxers validate the principle of progressive taxation.

Next, it's just a matter of *how* progressive the taxation should be. For example, why should $11k be "essential" for a "basic" standard of living. But, $13k shouldn't?

Taking it a step further, why should a new Ford Fiesta every 7 years, Mac N Cheese, a basic tract home, and basic medical services be as just as "essential" as a Ferrari, caviar, a McMansion and botox treatments?

Flat taxers do themselves in because they use the principle of flat taxation -- and hope nobody will notice that they're really proposing progressive taxation that isn't very progressive (with no principle to support their position).

I haven't seen any flat taxer propose a truly *flat* tax that would apply to the first dollar earned. Probably because it wouldn't be popular. So, if we're going to have progressive taxation -- we might as well consider the progressivity of "essential" and "basic."

Mark

birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
·Verizon FIOS

Re: T.I.A.

said by amigo_boy See Profile :

Even those who propose "flat taxes" propose a minimum income level for the "flat tax" to apply. In other words, that's two rates: 0% and 15% for anyone earning $12k per year.

So if I explain it as "the threshold below which the cost of processing the tax forms is greater than the resulting tax proceeds", does that fix it?

The reason the flat tax will not be established is the long history of exceptions. Everyone wants to be special, not the same as everybody else.

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com


1 edit

Re: T.I.A.

said by birdfeedr See Profile :

said by amigo_boy See Profile :

Even those who propose "flat taxes" propose a minimum income level for the "flat tax" to apply. In other words, that's two rates: 0% and 15% for anyone earning $12k per year.

So if I explain it as "the threshold below which the cost of processing the tax forms is greater than the resulting tax proceeds", does that fix it?
If the threshold were $2k income I could agree. The problem is, everyone who proposes a so-called "flat tax" says it won't apply to the first $15k (or so). They explain it as "not taxing the basic essentials."

That's the problem with calls to replace the income tax with a consumption tax. Anything simple sounds nice. The problem is the devils in the details.

Those who call for a sales tax exclude the basic essentials (food, health care, housing, etc.). Then we're back to the spectacle of oat meal being as essential as Filet Mignon. Emergency room visits as essential as botox treatments. A studio apartment as essential as a McMansion.

said by birdfeedr See Profile :

The reason the flat tax will not be established is the long history of exceptions. Everyone wants to be special, not the same as everybody else.
Situational ox goring is human nature. "I don't benefit from social moderation to Darwinian markets... but those other guys want to use government to take from me..."

But, the real problems with a so-called "flat" income tax (or a consumption tax) are

1) We have a long history of recognizing the "basic essentials" of life.

2) The "basic essentials" aren't a binary on/off. Things that the first $3k of income will buy are more essential than what the next $3k will. It's nonsensical to start taxing at $15k, at the same rate, as if the next $1k in income is just as essential as the first $1k (or the next $200k).

Mark
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA

said by pnh102 See Profile :

Amen to that.

According to the IRS, half of all income earners pay almost all income tax collected. Perhaps the half that only pays a pittance should endure a tax hike so that these things can be paid for.
Now there's a really stupid idea, increase taxes on the working poor so the only ways they can survive are welfare or crime. Guess you want even higher taxes if you don't want the working poor to be able to support themselves.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

Re: T.I.A.

said by Sammer See Profile :

Now there's a really stupid idea, increase taxes on the working poor so the only ways they can survive are welfare or crime. Guess you want even higher taxes if you don't want the working poor to be able to support themselves.
You missed the sarcasm.

In all seriousness though, the spending problem in this country could be solved by a very easy but highly-unlikely-to-ever-be-enacted policy: allowing only people who pay taxes to vote.
--
Blagojevich / Madoff 2012!

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

Re: T.I.A.

said by pnh102 See Profile :

In all seriousness though, the spending problem in this country could be solved by a very easy but highly-unlikely-to-ever-be-enacted policy: allowing only people who pay taxes to vote.
That's simplistic. Everyone pay's taxes, right? Even the welfare recipient pays sales tax and property tax (as a part of their rent).

Maybe you mean: only those who have an income not produced through welfare.

But, then what do we do with, for example, the ultra wealthy who are so through the use of society's moderation of "free" market forces (the SEC, FDIC, creation of corporate charters by state legislatures, a fictional yet legal "person" to stand as the fall guy for officers and investors)?

Mark

Killa200
Premium
join:2005-12-02
Spring City, TN
meh, sales tax has been like that here for years

DrModem
Premium
join:2006-10-19
USA
·EarthLink
·1and1
·PeoplePC


1 edit

...

Until we get rid of the two party insanity in this county, it will continue heading in the same direction at a varying pace, no matter what letter is next to the names.

In 2010 and 2012 make a REAL change and think outside the Democrat and Republican box.

See 12 replies to this post

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Sometimes I wonder.....

.... what would of happened if on 9/11 the Terrorists hit the Capitol building instead of the Pentagon or WTC. Would we be worse off?

.... I wonder.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

See 7 replies to this post

Matt
Gone playing Dragon Age Origins
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Stay away from these threads

I told myself I was going to stay away from these topics, but how about we give them a little longer than 3 months before we show up with pitchforks and torches?

See 8 replies to this post

koam
Pink Pecker
Premium
join:2000-08-16
East Puddle
clubs:

control and censorship

network neutrality is a codeword for thought control and censorship. the marketplace of ideas does not need to be regulated.
dieman
Premium
join:2002-08-02
Minneapolis, MN

Re: control and censorship

telecom hegemony is a codeword for thought control and censorship. the marketplace of ideas does need to be regulated.
viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net

HUH??? You've been listening to Glenn Beck, haven't you? The concept of everything being even, or 'neutral' on the Internet translates to thought control and censorship? I should probably shut up now before someone goes militia on me.

As to the article, I don't fault Republicans and Democrats per se, I believe the real culprit is the campaign finance system that allows companies and interest groups to donate obscene amounts of money to the political system. They expect something back, and we end up with shitty legislation as a result of dueling interests.
dieman
Premium
join:2002-08-02
Minneapolis, MN

Eh?

Last I checked, I was a bit more worried about becoming unemployed than network neutrality. I'm honestly fine if they don't figure this one out until next year.
chronoss2009

join:2008-09-23

on word of BI

so these two faction called parties are BI are they isn't it illegal to be gay

GAY govt , imagine that
inferno

join:2008-07-06

What do you expect?

You guys were dupped into voting for CHANGE AND HOPE from the messiah and you voted all of these idiots into office. Thats what you get, don't blame anyone else but yourself because you voted for these idiots!

Great job!

OBAMA = FAILURE

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Re: What do you expect?

Really? Well there's a lot of idiots up there I didn't vote for, so I assume that *YOU* idiots voted for them, so you can't blame anyone else but yourself, either.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

GOOD!

Good this is something we DO NOT NEED! NO NETWORK NEUTRALITY!

Tails

join:2007-09-25
Sanford, NC

Re: GOOD!

WARNING:

MY SYSTEMS DETECT UNSTABLE AMOUNTS OF SARCASM.

Proceed with caution captain.

DrModem
Premium
join:2006-10-19
USA

Re: GOOD!

Actually, from him it's probably serious.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable

Re: GOOD!

and you're right. I wasn't being sarcastic.

If you are not happy with the way your provider is; build out your OWN network and do what you want with it. Then you can give unlimited equal access to everything that touches YOUR network. See how you can handle it all.

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com

Re: GOOD!

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

If you are not happy with the way your provider is; build out your OWN network and do what you want with it. Then you can give unlimited equal access to everything that touches YOUR network. See how you can handle it all.
I don't support the people who say "unlimited" should mean unlimited.

But, telling people to build out their own networks isn't reasonable either. These commercial networks are built across public property (easements, rights of way) using granted monopolies.

There needs to be a better balance, where these "commercial" companies are better regulated as a public utility. Or, municipal infrastructure (buried and strung wires, access points on light poles) should be owned by the municipality and with interfaces to make it easier for anyone to provide service through.

Your argument seems to be that it's a free market and anyone can compete if they don't like the incumbents. That's not true.

Mark
Forums » Democrats Take Nap On Network Neutrality


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