 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   firephoto KDE Premium join:2003-03-18
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| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by kapil :said by supergirl :If you're not a terrorist or terrorist supporter, who cares? I have tried, and boy have I tried, to understand that rationale but it never did make any god damn sense to me. » en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came.... Most of the idiots that give that reasoning only use a phone for gossip and other worthless chit chat so in their mind it's true since no one gives a damn about who is screwing who or where the best tree is to shoot a squirrel and drink a keystone. | |
|  |  |  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by firephoto :said by kapil :said by supergirl :If you're not a terrorist or terrorist supporter, who cares? I have tried, and boy have I tried, to understand that rationale but it never did make any god damn sense to me. » en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came.... Most of the idiots that give that reasoning only use a phone for gossip and other worthless chit chat so in their mind it's true since no one gives a damn about who is screwing who or where the best tree is to shoot a squirrel and drink a keystone. But you on the other hand are discussing more weighty topics - like overthrowing the US Gov't.? So you are worried about monitoring. -- -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   firephoto KDE Premium join:2003-03-18
·Verizon west (ex G..
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by TK Junk Mail :But you on the other hand are discussing more weighty topics - like overthrowing the US Gov't.? So you are worried about monitoring. No but it's funny you pic the part that this administration worries about more than foreign terrorists. How does it go... protect what we have first, protect what our friends have second, and see what we can do for the country third? I think someone watched to many television shows in the 80's based on Texans.
Great ideas or other little bits that can lead to making money aren't very safe when discussed over an insecure communications method when the people listening are in it for the money first. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   yock The Internet Is For Porn Premium join:2000-11-21 Fairfield, OH
| said by TK Junk Mail :But you on the other hand are discussing more weighty topics - like overthrowing the US Gov't.? So you are worried about monitoring. Well geez, because there's nothing in-between gossip and treason. Good grief, there was a time when you made relevant, rational posts. I think that has passed. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus
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| said by TK Junk Mail :But you on the other hand are discussing more weighty topics - like overthrowing the US Gov't.? So you are worried about monitoring. Yeah, let's not forget that this and past administrations have used methods like NSLs to gather dirt on their political enemies or people that they just don't like.
Oh no, law abiding people having nothing to fear... Talk about being ignorant of the things that can go on in Washington. -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   S_engineer
join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL | Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law Arguments from people that THINK privacy still exists...great. Unplug the modem, turn off the cell, and kill the digital idiot box, you'll have privacy! -- Burn a tire, but make sure you buy that carbon offset! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  bmn ? ? ? Premium,ExMod 2003-06 join:2001-03-15 hiatus
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| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by S_engineer :Arguments from people that THINK privacy still exists...great. Unplug the modem, turn off the cell, and kill the digital idiot box, you'll have privacy! Yeah, let's all jump on board with you and celebrate the death of privacy... I assume the party is at your house, right ? You invited the NSA and FBI to eavesdrop ? Got your telescreen setup so they can watch us while we watch the game ?
And in case you are wondering...  -- Prove it... Save the Internet Time (NTP) service, use the pool. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   supergirl
join:2007-03-20 Pensacola, FL | Yeah, I'm sure Bill Clinton used the NSA to wiretap all the women that accused him of rape.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   yock The Internet Is For Porn Premium join:2000-11-21 Fairfield, OH
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by supergirl :Yeah, I'm sure Bill Clinton used the NSA to wiretap all the women that accused him of rape. That's an interesting thought. He did get off the hook for all of those, didn't he? I'd bet some quiet wiretaps would have benefited him quite nicely.
Since you're the one who brought it up, just what evidence do you have to offer that he didn't use the NSA to his own advantage there? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   JoeOnSunset Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood. Premium join:2002-11-25 Ormond Beach, FL
| If Bill Clinton abused his power, then it's okay that George W. Bush does? Absurd.
All the better to make the point that abuse-of-power is the natural tendency of governments (and the people who make up government), which is why we should always be dilligent in designing checks on that power. I wonder where I heard THAT before...
Oh right, it's one of the founding principles of our nation. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   superht1
join:2001-02-22 Kennesaw, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law Bill clinton didn't abused his power he exploited everyone using his administration privilege Anyone who is in power can do or say whatever the hell he likes. We people are follower and are idiots in nature. If we are smart we would not need a leader If one guy say let's throw nuke everywhere, would you do it? Don't blame him even if its his fault blame the stupid masses who will follow one person. I've had enough of people following one person then blame that one person Use it as a scapegoat for their poor excuses because can't think on their own. We the people never existed. We the lemmings who will do anything for someone to lead us. It doesn't matter right or wrong. If it sounds good but doesn't work in reality, still do it.
Stop electing one person to do the thinking for everyone Since nobody is perfect why let one person rule this nation. Did most of love war? Did most of us wanted to go to war? You people let one person convince you to go to war. You are a fool. You are a tool if you are one of them. If someone poked you with a needle, and you don't know who it is do you bomb the hell out of everyone? if someone pissed you off, do you shoot to kill? There's a lot of stupid people in life and they will always find a reason to kill someone. The laws are made to keep people in check Is their a law to keep the leader in check? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   supergirl
join:2007-03-20 Pensacola, FL
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| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by superht1 :Bill clinton didn't abused his power he exploited everyone using his administration privilege Anyone who is in power can do or say whatever the hell he likes. We people are follower and are idiots in nature. If we are smart we would not need a leader If one guy say let's throw nuke everywhere, would you do it? Don't blame him even if its his fault blame the stupid masses who will follow one person. I've had enough of people following one person then blame that one person Use it as a scapegoat for their poor excuses because can't think on their own. We the people never existed. We the lemmings who will do anything for someone to lead us. It doesn't matter right or wrong. If it sounds good but doesn't work in reality, still do it. Stop electing one person to do the thinking for everyone Since nobody is perfect why let one person rule this nation. Did most of love war? Did most of us wanted to go to war? You people let one person convince you to go to war. You are a fool. You are a tool if you are one of them. If someone poked you with a needle, and you don't know who it is do you bomb the hell out of everyone? if someone pissed you off, do you shoot to kill? There's a lot of stupid people in life and they will always find a reason to kill someone. The laws are made to keep people in check Is their a law to keep the leader in check? Well, yes, the Congress keeps the President in check and so does the Supreme Court. Ever heard of "Checks & Balances" in the Constitution? Oh, they hide that in books so that will be our little secret. Oh, I never said the Congress was competent though. 
Actually, war is good for the economy. WWII ended the Great Depression not FDR's policies. Actually, contrary to Democrats assertions, the deficit has DECLINED this year not gone up due to Iraq and Afganistan. -- Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton. -Supergirl | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   JoeOnSunset Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood. Premium join:2002-11-25 Ormond Beach, FL
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law That's sort of a circular argument.
First you say, "We need to TRUST our executive branch and reduce judicial and congressional oversight on them, cuz it's a SCARY time!"
THen I say, "But we need that oversight. Remember history?"
So you respond, "We have oversight. It's called congress and the courts, duh."
Man is that duckspeak if I've ever heard it. | |
|  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
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·AT&T Southwest
| said by supergirl :If you're not a terrorist or terrorist supporter, who cares? There has not been one single case of wiretapping an American that has nothing to do with terrorism so what is the big deal? Really? Any since there's been zero oversight, just how would you know that? It's happened in the past when it was totally illegal, and now that it is quasi-legal who's to say it's not happening again?
What about the allegations of whistle-blowers like Russell Tice?
I'd say there's been plenty of broad, wide wiretapping and monitoring of Americans who had nothing to do with terrorism. -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by KrK :I'd say there's been plenty of broad, wide wiretapping and monitoring of Americans who had nothing to do with terrorism. I'd say there hasn't been any.
So there ya go, two opposing views with no proof either way. | |
|  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
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| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by lesopp :So there ya go, two opposing views with no proof either way. ... Except for whistleblowers and the like saying the system is being abused. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL | Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law None the less, allegations are not proof. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   yock The Internet Is For Porn Premium join:2000-11-21 Fairfield, OH
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law said by lesopp :None the less, allegations are not proof. And there will never be an investigation just because the government says so. How convenient, don't you think? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL | Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law Yes, I would say ignoring investigations, hearings and court cases that thus far haven't panned out is convenient. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   yock The Internet Is For Porn Premium join:2000-11-21 Fairfield, OH
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law But that isn't relevant to the FCC's reluctance to investigate. To them, it's a matter of national security.
»FCC Refuses to Investigate Telcos in Wiretapping Issue
So, here we are faced with likely Constitutional violations and the only entity which has jurisdiction to investigate them has declined to do so because they believe it will breach national security.
Methinks you're too eager to accept excuses. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
| Re: Some relevant passages about the proposed law So it doesn't count when the ACLU sues the NSA and on appeal the judge rules "IN CONSIDERATION WHEREOF, it is ORDERED that the order of the district court is VACATED and the case is REMANDED with instructions to DISMISS the case for lack of jurisdiction."
»www.fas.org/sgp/jud/statesec/aclu070607.pdf
Then there is the case presently moving in the courts where Verizon and AT&T are being sued, I guess it doesn't count either.
And let's not forget the plethora of hearings held by the House and Senate regarding this issue, but I suppose they don't count either.
What does the FCC's reluctance to investigate have to do with the current topic (Democrats Working on FISA and Surveillance Bills)?
I'm only eager to accept facts, I do not accept hearsay, innuendo or excuses. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   yock The Internet Is For Porn Premium join:2000-11-21 Fairfield, OH
| said by KrK :said by lesopp :So there ya go, two opposing views with no proof either way. ... Except for whistleblowers and the like saying the system is being abused. Which would normally warrant an investigation. Instead, the government has passed its hands over our collective eyes stating "These are not the droids Constitutional Violations you're looking for." | |
|  |  |   nursemike
join:2001-10-14 Palm Bay, FL | "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." It was spoken by Thomas Jefferson. Do you think that the people fear the government or the government fears the people? | |
|  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
| Fear mongering... How's it feel to see George Orwell's book coming true? So much for the government being run by the people. Instead, it's being setup to spy on us all. Great. What next? Court mandated tracking devices for everyone? Mandatory Cameras in your home? It being illegal to encrypt your hard drives for fear the government can't access our personal data? This crap is getting far out of hand. Why don't we focus on the real issues in this country like Children needing Healthcare, Crime, Educating Kids, etc, instead of spending money on this crap. | |
|  |  Nuts
join:2006-04-27 Forest, OH | Re: Fear mongering... Your real issues are all State and Local issues. National security is one the few responsibilities of the Federal government. | |
|  |  |  jc100
join:2002-04-10
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edit: October 7th, @11:39AM
| Re: Fear mongering... National Security is a farse Nuts.. Which country did the 9/11 Hijackers come through (Not Mexico). Canada. Are our borders with Canada secure? Hell no. Are our borders with Mexico secure? Hell no. Why might you ask? Well on the southern front, we have businesses "complain" about the illegals but then hire them in mass droves. They aren't taking our jobs, but they sure are being encouraged to come. If these same companies didn't utilize their labor, there'd be no incentive to flood the borders. On the northern front, we have so much wilderness and open borders up there, it isn't funny. We wouldn't know who is coming and going if our lives depending on this. Couple this with the fact the second worst terrorist attack was committed by a Christian named Timothy Mcveigh, and NOT a Muslim, and you got a whole lot of crap. You never had this sort of thing in 1995. Now, however, we've got the country in this mass stupor of ignorance, believing every Muslim is out to get you. Not true. Quite frankly, more attacks on the U.S. have been perpetrated by Americans than foreigners. Unibomber, School Shootings, Oklahoma city, Eco Terrorism, Abortion Clinic Bombings, all done by us. Hence, to think we need to start spying on everyone in the name of "security" is a joke. We don't need these laws. What we need is people to do their jobs properly within the confines of the law. No laws should EVER be made that turn a Democracy into a police state. When you have no oversight on such programs, as has happened, you get instances where the FBI photocopies letters to demand information illegally, and the NSA spying on everyone. Hence, who polices the police? Either way, we got bigger issues in this country. Murder alone kills 20-22,000 a year. Millions of Children have no insurance or are underinsured. Poverty is a huge problem. Yet, we feel the need to spend hundreds of billions on programs that go after isolated instances and don't focus on real security. Wonderful. OUr government and tax dollars "hard" at work. I wonder which of their friends will get these contracts? | |
|  |  |  |   Wolfie00 Premium join:2005-03-12
| Re: Fear mongering... said by jc100 : Which country did the 9/11 Hijackers come through (Not Mexico). Canada. Please educate yourself before spreading malicious drivel.
"Staff Statement No. 1 - Entry of the 9/11 Hijackers into the United States" in the "Report of the The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States" ("The 9/11 Commission Report"), states that none of the 9/11 attackers entered or tried to enter the United States illegally through land borders, but rather exploited legal entry systems from overseas:
"Beginning in 1997, the 19 hijackers submitted 24 applications and received 23 visas. The pilots acquired most of theirs in the year 2000. The other hijackers, with two exceptions, obtained theirs between the fall of 2000 and June 2001. Two of the visas were issued in Berlin, and two were issued in the United Arab Emirates. The rest were issued in Saudi Arabia. One of the pilots, Hani Hanjour, had an application denied in September 2000 for lack of adequate documentation. He then produced more evidence in support of his student visa application, and it was approved. Except for Hanjour, all the hijackers sought tourist visas." ... "The 19 hijackers entered the United States a total of 33 times. They arrived through ten different airports, though more than half came in through Miami, JFK, or Newark." -- "Against stupidity, the very gods themselves contend in vain" -- Friedrich Schiller
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|  |  |  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
| So is it your opinion we should deal with the fascist jihad movement as a law enforcement matter? Or are you saying that because there are other problems we should ignore it?
The problem with "doing their jobs properly within the confines of the law" is that prior to 9/11 the laws meant to protect our privacy also protected those foreign non-state actors wanting to cause us harm. Are you saying we should go back to that?
You always use Timothy Mcveigh as a parallel to the present day jihadist movement but he did not do his vile deed in the name of god or Christianity, he did it because he felt the government was too intrusive following the events in Waco.
You say we never had this sort of thing before 1995, but the first WTC attack, perpetrated by muslim extremists, was in 1993. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
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| said by jc100 :Why don't we focus on the real issues in this country like Children needing Healthcare, Crime, Educating Kids, etc, instead of spending money on this crap. That would be great, but the problem is that you have a group of people complaining about laws and practices that have been in existence for decades. Due to this newfound "problem", Congress needs to look like they're doing something to appease their whining constituents. | |
|  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
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| Re: Fear mongering... said by openbox9 :to appease their whining constituents. I'm sure you meant to say "Represent the American Citizen" didn't you? | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL | Re: Fear mongering... Sure I did. I just find it humorous that only in the last year or two has it been necessary to "represent the American citizen" in this manner. We haven't had a problem with this for decades. | |
|  |  |  |  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
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| Re: Fear mongering... We've had the problem for decades...
... But most people, I'm sure, took some comforts in the numbers. IE The herd mentality. In the past, to "monitor" an American, they'd actually gave to physically wiretap your phone and record your conversations in real time. They's have to open your mail and read it. They's have to plant bugs and recording devices... all these things took effort and resources, and agents to go over the material.
Simply put, you were safe because they had to concentrate on the "Persons on interest" with their time and money.
That didn't make it any more legal or just, but it did lead to somewhat a sense of (perhaps false) security for the average joe.
But now fast forward to the modern age. With the new technology, they now can have computers and logging of literally millions of people if need be. They can have programs and scanning real time through people's internet usage, phone calls, emails, etc.... There's no longer any safety in numbers because they can monitor and watch EVERYBODY.... and it's not just for Terrorism, anymore. It could easily be expanded to include "Objectionable" material, "Suspected Copyright Infringement", "Suspicious activity", "Tax avoidance" etc etc
We're really opening up a can of worms here. Once you let the Genie out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |  |  |  See 9 replies to this post | |
 Scotty6595
join:2005-04-03 Frisco, TX | LMAO at all you that drank the lefty cool-aid... They rant and rave and tell you what to think and then what you want to hear just to get a vote and low and behold they are continuing to persue and perpetuating the very policies that you have been told to hate.
ROFL!!!!
Sheeple... | |
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