 disc
join:2005-12-31
Raleigh, NC | that should improve the business case for FTTH ... for cablecos | |
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 | | | Re: that should improve the business case for FTTH Would it always work in replacing narrow telco cables to individual homes? I'm thinking whatever contractors are doing this installation, need to keep a trenching machine and whatever else they need as a backup, in case the cable insulation has a hole in it along the way, or is creased in a spot where the replacement fiber can't be threaded through.
But whatever method is used, AT&T Uverse should use it. FTTN isn't enough for me to bother switching to them. | |
|
 tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:4
 ·Fairpoint Commun..
 ·Hollis Hosting
| Clever technology I first heard about the company from a post in the AVsforum:
»www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···=1197209
If it works as well as they make out sounds like a great idea. Pull copper out if existing cables, and use the outer jacket as a cable duct for fiber.
The blurb from the company mentions another benefit is the salvaged copper can be sold for scrap, helping reduce upgrade cost. Normally underground cable is abandoned.
Here in NH most outside plant is aerial cable. That is much less costly to upgrade the underground. Not sure if the technology is cost effective for aerial cable.
/tom | |
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| rody_44Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA | Re: Clever technology Its a clever technology with no practical purpose. | |
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| | tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:4 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| Re: Clever technology said by rody_44: Its a clever technology with no practical purpose. Why do you say that?
Reusing old copper cable as fiber duct is a lot cheaper then having to dig up streets to install new underground cable.
/tom | |
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| | |
1 edit | Re: Clever technology --nm--- | |
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| |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
1 edit | It's a very clever technology with very low cost.
Wow, color me impressed.
Somebody was really thinking outside the box with that idea (but inside the cable)  | |
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| | fbruno
join:2000-04-06
Berwyn, PA
2 edits | Tell that to the trunk guys at Manhattan Cable Televsion. In 1988, they softened the dialectic in existing underground trunk cables using large jolts of electric current, making it possible to pull out the insides and easily install this new fangled thing called fiber.
They avoided the major expense of building new ducts and opening many trenches at the then upsurd price of $92 per foot. Worked like a charm. We ended up with no active devices from the headend at 23rd Street all the way up to East 86th Street.
Think about it - this was 1988! | |
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|  rawgerzIn Debt we trustPremium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA | I wonder if a redneck and a pickup truck would be even more cost effective?
Never heard of buried coax before, I've only seen it aerial. Still it's pretty similar to what verizon crews do for aerial fiber. Tie some lubed up ball on one end, and use a leaf blower to suck it though.
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You can't make all the people happy all of the time. But it should be common sense to shoot for the majority. | |
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| |  r81984Fair and BalancedPremium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
 ·row44
| Re: Clever technology said by rawgerz:Never heard of buried coax before, I've only seen it aerial. I can't believe you just said that, LOL.
--
Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are. | |
|
| |  ptrowskiGot Helix?Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
 ·VOIPo
·Choice One Commu..
| said by rawgerz:I wonder if a redneck and a pickup truck would be even more cost effective? Never heard of buried coax before, I've only seen it aerial. Still it's pretty similar to what verizon crews do for aerial fiber. Tie some lubed up ball on one end, and use a leaf blower to suck it though. Wow. Have you ever been in a neighborhood that doesn't have poles? I guess not. 
--
"So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org | |
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| | | chimera
join:2009-06-09
Washington, DC | Re: Clever technology Sure he has, he just can't see the cabling so it isn't there. :P | |
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| | | | ptrowskiGot Helix?Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4 Reviews:
·VOIPo
·Choice One Commu..
| Re: Clever technology said by chimera:Sure he has, he just can't see the cabling so it isn't there. :P Out of sight, out of mind, doesn't exist.....
--
"So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org | |
|
| | | | | said by ptrowski:said by rawgerz:I wonder if a redneck and a pickup truck would be even more cost effective? Never heard of buried coax before, I've only seen it aerial. Still it's pretty similar to what verizon crews do for aerial fiber. Tie some lubed up ball on one end, and use a leaf blower to suck it though. Wow. Have you ever been in a neighborhood that doesn't have poles? I guess not. He just assumes they don't have cable there... 8-) | |
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| | | | ptrowskiGot Helix?Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4 Reviews:
·VOIPo
·Choice One Commu..
| Re: Clever technology said by jjeffeory:said by ptrowski:said by rawgerz:I wonder if a redneck and a pickup truck would be even more cost effective? Never heard of buried coax before, I've only seen it aerial. Still it's pretty similar to what verizon crews do for aerial fiber. Tie some lubed up ball on one end, and use a leaf blower to suck it though. Wow. Have you ever been in a neighborhood that doesn't have poles? I guess not. He just assumes they don't have cable there... 8-) Or electricity either.
--
"So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org | |
|
| | | rawgerzIn Debt we trustPremium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA | Probably have, just didn't notice. Don't know anyone that travels that looks for poles and/or what's on them. I figured cable co's used fiber to begin with in the most metro areas, not like it's often the streets would be dug up..
But I doubt there are many places like that to begin with, underground is very costly, so unless you travel to Manhattan or I guess Toledo, you won't see it
--
You can't make all the people happy all of the time. But it should be common sense to shoot for the majority. | |
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| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1 | Re: Clever technology said by rawgerz:But I doubt there are many places like that to begin with, underground is very costly, so unless you travel to Manhattan or I guess Toledo, you won't see it Most states require all new subdivisions/more than X amount of homes built by 1 developer to have all underground utilities. | |
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|  KylemaulLovin' My FirefoxPremium
join:2001-03-30
North Port, FL | said by tschmidt:The blurb from the company mentions another benefit is the salvaged copper can be sold for scrap, helping reduce upgrade cost. Normally underground cable is abandoned. As the center conductor of coax is simply copper coated steel, I doubt the economic benefits touted. | |
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| | tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:4 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| Re: Clever technology said by Kylemaul:As the center conductor of coax is simply copper coated steel, I doubt the economic benefits touted. Construction depends on the type of coax. In the video they were pulling out copper pairs, not coax. There is a chart on the site estimating the amount of copper recovered based on pair-count.
/tom | |
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| |
1 edit | said by Kylemaul:As the center conductor of coax is simply copper coated steel aluminum, I doubt the economic benefits touted. Since we're talking trunk/feeder I have fixed your comment. | |
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| | | Its not full copper, its copper coated, its worthless for scrap so no they wouldn't save much money | |
|
 koitsuPremium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:13 | Neat technology/concept I had to watch the video a few times to figure out how exactly it worked ("what the heck is the fluid for?!"), until I realised that the fluid is used in a similar fashion as dish soap, oil, or butter to remove a ring off a human finger (the finger in this case would be the physical copper). The result is that the conduit is left intact so you can use it to run fibre.
Quite effective, IMHO, assuming your conduits aren't falling apart. 
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer. | |
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| iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
 ·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Neat technology/concept It's actually not messing with the conduit. The fluid dissolves the dielectric in the coaxial cable, so once you pull the core out (probably copper, could be something else) you're left with the coaxial jacket, which can then be used as a conduit for fiber. So even direct-buried cable will work in this situation. | |
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| | koitsuPremium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:13 | Re: Neat technology/concept Oh... hrm, I guess I'm still not understanding it. Time for me to find a cross-section diagram of what the dielectric portion is, vs. conduit vs. copper/core...
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer. | |
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| | |  tubbynetreminds me of the danse russePremium,MVM
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ | Re: Neat technology/concept said by koitsu:Oh... hrm, I guess I'm still not understanding it. Time for me to find a cross-section diagram of what the dielectric portion is, vs. conduit vs. copper/core... take a pair of snips to a leftover piece of coax. you have your center conductor (that protrudes from the fitting), then a "spongy" stubstance, then an outer jacket of some sort of metal and then some sort of outside wrapping/dressing.
the dielectric actually carries the wave. in the purely transverse electromagnetic (tem) case of wave propagation, you have a voltage differential between conductors, resulting in a electric (e) and magnetic (h) fields that obey maxwell's equations. when excited, these fields will allow for a propagation down the coaxial cable in the low-loss dielectric material according to the helmholtz wave equations.
q.
--
"...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..." | |
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| | | |  Kett2000Premium
join:2002-04-23
Sunnyvale, CA
1 edit | Re: Neat technology/concept said by tubbynet:said by koitsu:Oh... hrm, I guess I'm still not understanding it. Time for me to find a cross-section diagram of what the dielectric portion is, vs. conduit vs. copper/core... take a pair of snips to a leftover piece of coax. you have your center conductor (that protrudes from the fitting), then a "spongy" stubstance, then an outer jacket of some sort of metal and then some sort of outside wrapping/dressing. the dielectric actually carries the wave. in the purely transverse electromagnetic (tem) case of wave propagation, you have a voltage differential between conductors, resulting in a electric (e) and magnetic (h) fields that obey maxwell's equations. when excited, these fields will allow for a propagation down the coaxial cable in the low-loss dielectric material according to the helmholtz wave equations. q. This just brought back memories of E-Mag classes in college. =D
-K. (EE) | |
|
| | | | I don't believe you are correct. To dissolve the dielectric it would need to be a petroleum based product and wouldn't be biodegradable (Something they promote pretty heavily that they have EPA and EU certification for biodegradability of the fluid). But the biggest killer to your statement is that the system isn't for coax, they mention that they can do coax but this stuff is actually targeted at telco's and copper bundles based on their site information (Flash diagram, Video, FAQ and Pictures indicate copper bundles, not Coaxial cable) and I've never seen a telco copper bundle with dielectric around the copper pairs. Based on their diagram and flash program detailing the installation the fluid is nothing more than a lubricant (wouldn't surprise me if it's vegetable oil) that in the case of coax would be pressure injected between the dielectric and the sheath and then the whole dielectric + copper is pulled out in one piece leaving only the PVC sheath behind.
You really should visit the site before you start commenting on how the system works, but this is the internet, you know how it works based on the news post, right? Sheesh | |
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| | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 | Re: Neat technology/concept No, sorry. I read the press releases on Multichannel (which specifically talked about dissolving the dielectric) and watched the demo video. Maybe I read everything wrong, but I could've sworn the release talked about dissolving the dielectric. | |
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| | | | KabelX
join:2009-11-18
Fort Lauderdale, FL | Re: Neat technology/concept The dielectric and center conductor are not dissolved during the process. A combination of the fluids components and pressure allow the core to be extracted. The cable is left with the outside sheath and the aluminum turn-plate which serves as your conduit.
The technology is seeing success far greater than predicted on the process pertaining to coaxial cable. | |
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| | | | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 | Re: Neat technology/concept Thanks for interjecting an official response. Guess I didn't know what I was talking about | |
|
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
| What speeds/prices are offered in the FTTH trial area? That's the true measure of whether Buckeye is serious about pushing out the benefits of fiber to its customers. They could just keep 12/1 and 20/1 maximum tiers for customers (depending on whether you bundle...I'd be limited to 12/1) even though they're on fiber. Or they could push things up a little (maybe 12/2 and 20/5) or a lot (15/5 and 30/10) on the higher tiers, adding speed to lower tiers as well.
Buckete is one of the more expensive providers as speed vs. pricing goes; I think they're even more expensive than SuddenLink for equivalent speeds (assuming you get rated speeds on SL). Hopefully this will gve folks in Toledo a better broadband option; I know I'd hate to be limited to 1 Mbps of upload speed on a cable connection. | |
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See 12 replies to this post |
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rawgerzIn Debt we trustPremium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA | So what happens to those that have service? Are they going to leave them without TV, internet, and possibly home phone for possibly weeks while they redo it all and rewire all the homes? I don't think they could get away with laying coax along the sidewalks
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You can't make all the people happy all of the time. But it should be common sense to shoot for the majority. | |
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| tubbynetreminds me of the danse russePremium,MVM
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ | Re: So what happens to those that have service? said by rawgerz:Are they going to leave them without TV, internet, and possibly home phone for possibly weeks while they redo it all and rewire all the homes? I don't think they could get away with laying coax along the sidewalks how do you figure weeks?
cox around here has maintenance windows from midnight to 4am.
you have to remember that there is already fiber to the node in all cable plants. there exists only hardline from the node to each pedestal/tap and then your typical rg6-qs to the nid on the house. assuming this works as it is claimed, you set up actives at the pedestal that you are wanting to upgrade, and you essentially bump the node further down in the plant. customers are still using docsis for hsi and typical cable boxen to receive signal. once the customer premise is scheduled for the upgrade, you run the fiber to the home and disconnect his cable line from the pedestal. you're essentially running two plants concurrently until all users are migrated from the coaxial plant.
q.
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"...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..." | |
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| | | | Re: So what happens to those that have service? It also helps that cisco now has equipment that does both docsis and ftth. | |
|
 W8ASATieng gi vay?
join:2000-07-31
Dayton, OH
·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | I hope this technology works..... Bring it on! The cable in my entire plat is underground, and laying fiber will probably never happen unless something like this makes $ense to the cable companies such as TW.
Fingers crossed....
(edit): I watched the video, and it looks like it works for the large cable diameters, but doesn't address the small RG6/59 cable types.(/edit)
--
Microwave and RF Components at www.ohiomicrowave.com | |
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|
See 8 replies to this post |
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| | Awfully disruptive to the customer though How long an outage would you experience while they were upgrading your area to fiber using this method? | |
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| Reviews:
·AT&T Midwest
·voip.ms
·MyPhoneCompany
| Re: Awfully disruptive to the customer though said by travisc:How long an outage would you experience while they were upgrading your area to fiber using this method? Wouldn't be completely free of problems but in most cases they would probably cut over to a temporary aerial or laid-on-the-ground system for the neighborhood before starting the process. | |
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| | wow that is cool This might be the innovation that can really make a difference in the future for getting fiber to the home. | |
|
 Simba7
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT | Competition for FiOS This could help other cable companies to deploy FTTH. It would be a good incentive to ditch copper completely and deploy fiber.
Not to mention.. it would pay for itself. Sell the copper to deploy fiber. Heck, they might actually come out ahead. | |
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| rody_44Premium
join:2004-02-20
Quakertown, PA
1 edit | Re: Competition for FiOS i guess you guys failed to notice that in the video its not even coax. Its a sham man, in the real world cable companies use on average .750. Thats not even big enough to run fiber. Im guessing the company that developed the process scoured the USA and actually found the one out of million areas this might actually work and agreed to try it free or some deal like that for advertisement. Dont buy into the hipe as its a useless technology. Keep in mind that in real world a 625 cable hard line is a total of .625 thousands of a inch on the outside. My guess is they went out and found a developement that ran 2 hardlines and told buckeye they could do it. Is it possible in a developement where a extra hardline was ran. Sure it is,but in the real world its not feasable | |
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| | mworks
join:2006-06-13
Faison, NC | Re: Competition for FiOS Actually .750 cable is big enough to house several fiber lines.
6 strands only need .325 to fit, so 12 strands is easy. | |
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| | | | The new pencil fibers house a 12 count and are the size of a phone drop. Even a 188 count is smaller in diameter than the inner diameter of the .750 sheath. Just lube that sucker up with pulling lube and away you go. | |
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| | tschmidtPremium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:4 Reviews:
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
| said by rody_44: Its a sham man, in the real world cable companies use on average .750. Thats not even big enough to run fiber. I think you are assuming fiber diameter including protective sheath. The size of the fiber itself is tiny. Inside a duct there is minimal need for mechanical protection.
/tom | |
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| | Without digging things up? And you guys belueve that? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA....
First... Any chemical that would "dissolve" the dielectric (the white part) of the COAX would be highly toxic or corrosive and would need to be recaptured during the process which is very costly.
Second... Fiber to the home? If a home already had an aerial COAX going to it, a fiber optic cable can be attached and pulled to the home replacing the old COAX. If the COAX is underground then it's most likely in a conduit. Again the fiber optic cable would again be connected to the COAX and pulled thru. I did cable for years and NEVER had to "dig". The COAXes were either aerial or in a conduit from the pedistal to the side of the house.
The precentage of homes without exisitng cabling would be very very low and those would be done on an as needed basis.
I absolutely do not believe this is a real process but then... this is just my opinion. | |
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| | | Re: Without digging things up? said by Ioweyou :
I did cable for years and NEVER had to "dig". The COAXes were either aerial or in a conduit from the pedistal to the side of the house.
Guess you only worked in areas with plant from the 90's and up. Here, pretty much anything from the late 90's and older were all direct buried drops. All over this state. | |
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| | A much simpler way.... How about this?
Since we're already abandoning DSL as a communications medium, pull out the DSL line from the Central Office, attach it to the fiber optic cable, then pull out the DSL line from the Customers house and just keep pulling until the fiber optic cable shows up! Makes more sense to me and they can make a reeling machine to reel up the DSl line as the fiber optic cable travels behind it.
And then all you'll have to do is upgrade your DSL central offices to manage fiber optic lines and you're done! | |
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| patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1 | Re: A much simpler way.... lol | |
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SlyLoK
join:2007-10-19
Sugar Grove, VA | If I did it.. I would want to get 50% off for life. | |
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1 edit | Lots o Lube Just grade now ill be known as the Cable Phelcher. Seriously the only problem i see is the many thousands of cut drops that have been spliced and burried going to the home. | |
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| | Splices Excellent idea that will run across a ton of hiccups in CATV land. There is no solution that I know of for buried splices and they are everywhere. I suppose if they make a custom fitting for splicing the sheath and leave the core open for feed through but that requires TDRing every cable that won't work and digging up the splice. Pulling it apart and changing the splice at that location.
This is a great idea I just don't see the practicality of it in older CATV plants. | |
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 EGeezerSummertimePremium
join:2002-08-04
Midwest
kudos:7
·Callcentric
| TW, ATT et. al. are spending more money ... The big guys spend money on ads, lawsuits and lobbyists while companies like Buckeye spent it on engineers, research and building a better product. I hope Buckeye is able to reap the rewards and market share without being squelched by lawyers and obstructionists.
--
The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis | |
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|  ILpt4UPremium
join:2006-11-12
Lisle, IL
kudos:4 | Re: TW, ATT et. al. are spending more money ... So how much is Comcast paying Buckeye Cable to Field Trial this procedure?  | |
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| | IT'LL NEVER WORK! Sheesh, total bull$hit. I have placed alot of big cables and I cannot see this working unless the situation is absolutely perfect.
In the little video it looks like ~2700pr cable and when placing stuff that big it is very hard to make it turn corners without kinking and ruining lots of pairs inside. So, imagine there's a kink 300' down the line, those guys pump their magic oil in it, and start tuggin. Cables awfuly tight at that small kink but it manages to pull the core out. As soon as the core's past the slight kink the sheath completely collapses....whoopsie. | |
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Core0000Premium
join:2008-05-04
Somerset, KY Reviews:
·New Wave Communi..
|  FTTH without a lot of digging
You need to pass this video along to all of the Cable co's and DSL providers that you know of, every week, for a year.. I am sure you have the know how to set up some kind of automatic email system.
This is a technology that definitely needs the word spread about it.
Of course in my area, most of the lines are above ground... but the cable co (Next to a major highway), and the DSL provider(smack dab in the city, lines underground) are both, in locations where there's a lot of concrete and asphalt for miles.. So I am betting this tech would still help out big time. Financially.
This tech gets me excited. | |
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 fiber_manThings Happen For A ReasonPremium
join:2001-01-27
Port Saint Lucie, FL
·AT&T U-Verse
| Video From what I saw they pulled out an old paper cable with an lead sheath on it. The old paper cable cables used to have air pressure on them to keep them dry. All they did was put a lube in the cable to pull the old copper and paper out. This is a great idea when the ducts are collapsed between manholes. We just pull the cables out of the ducts and use the cable to pull 2-3 inter ducts right behind the cable coming out just in case the duct is collapsed.
Most likely it was done in a duct run between manholes in a straight shot [no sharp bends]. I like to see them pull a gel filled cable out buried in a subdivision with splices on it. Also they dug a pit to cut the cable they were pulling so I guess we will still be digging up people yards.
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GO NOLES!! | |
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