Dish, Echostar Must Pay TiVo $200 MillionAT&T, Verizon lawyers paying close attention... 08:56AM Tuesday Sep 08 2009 by Karl Bodetags: legal · competition · business · hardwareIn the continuing saga of TiVo versus, well, everybody, TiVo is continuing to come out on top, with a Texas Judge ruling that Dish and $200 million should be paid to the DVR company for DVR patent violations. The settlement total calculates a $2.25 royalty per DVR subscriber per month from April of 2008, when an appeals court sided with TiVo over Dish Network after a nearly five year legal patent battle. AT&T and Verizon lawyers are likely watching all of this with great interest, after both telcos were sued by the company last month for violating many of the same patents.
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cdru
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Fort Wayne, IN
| $200m That $200m isn't just for licensing from the original lawsuit. The original lawsuit amount of close to $200m has already been paid for the period prior to April 2008. The new amount is $1.25 per subscriber plus an additional $1 for contempt from the period since April 2008.
TiVO had wanted close to $1b in fines for contempt, but the court balked at that amount.
At this point, Dish should have just bought out a controlling share of TiVO for about the same price. | |
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cameronsfx
join:2009-01-08
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| Re: $200m said by cdru  :That $200m isn't just for licensing from the original lawsuit. The original lawsuit amount of close to $200m has already been paid for the period prior to April 2008. The new amount is $1.25 per subscriber plus an additional $1 for contempt from the period since April 2008. TiVO had wanted close to $1b in fines for contempt, but the court balked at that amount. At this point, Dish should have just bought out a controlling share of TiVO for about the same price. Charlie Ergen's too cheap. | |
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cdru
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join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN | Re: $200m Charlie Ergen has more money (net worth: $9.1b) then I and probably everyone else on these forums ever will. I'll defer judging his financial wisdom or calling him "too cheap" until after I make my first cool billion dollars. | |
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Steve Mehs
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| Re: $200m And how exactly do you think he got that 9.1B? By being cheap! Charlie Ergan is the scum of the earth, he's the spawn of Satan, or perhaps he's even Satan himself. He's an ole' miser who makes Ebenezer Scrooge look like philanthropist of the millennium. I have no problem with companies making money and as much of it as possible, that's what America is all about. What I have a problem with is how el Cheapo uses his customers as pawns in his game and then airs all his dirty laundry with programming providers on Fr Charlie Gospel Hour the second Monday of every month (aka the Charlie Chat). When I had Dish Network, it was a very long five year period after I learned how Charlie operated. Every month I'd fear my favorite channels would be dropped because el Cheapo was too greedy to pay but then come on channel 100 the following month and tell us how he's 'doing it for us'.
Granted all programming providers have contract disputes, DirecTV just dropped Versus the other day, the best MSO on the planet, my Time Warner Cable, dumped HDNet and HDNet Movies in June, but it isn't a constant threat. With Dish Network I always wondered which channel was next on the chopping block.
Leaving Dish Network and not supporting the likes of that evil greedy old man was things I could have done.
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| | | | | | axiomatic
join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX | Go Tivo! Go Tivo!
Now take this money and go build something cool. Cablelabs is lollygagging around right now. I think maybe you need to take this $200 Million out for a spin and smack Cablelabs around with it a bit. | |
| | | gtoken
join:2003-12-28
Fort Smith, AR | Whats the bottome line? If/when Dish pays the fine... Will this be the end of this? What does this mean for Dish DVR equipment? | |
| | blacksurfer
join:2002-07-14
Sherman Oaks, CA | Re: Whats the bottome line? Wait till Tivo makes money from ATT and Cable. But this will all be mute when the patent office voids Tivo patent. | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
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00000
clubs: | Re: Whats the bottome line? ha! AT&T and cable will be crying soon. | |
| | | bigboy
join:2000-12-04
Palo Alto, CA | mute?
Oh, you meant "moot." | |
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Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
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1 edit | said by gtoken :If/when Dish pays the fine... Will this be the end of this? What does this mean for Dish DVR equipment? At the moment it means nothing since Dish is still appealing the ruling that their latest modifications still infringe on TiVo's patent. When that ruling comes in, assuming the appeals court sides with TiVo, then Dish with have to pay additional fines (for the time it took for the appeals ruling) and then decide which of the following it wants to do:
1. Pay TiVo a licensing fee for each DVR set top box they have deployed.
2. Disable recording on all their deployed DVR set top boxes.
3. Do nothing and get hit with major penalties for every day they ignore the judges ruling.
4. Appeal to the Supreme Court.
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KrK
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| Re: Whats the bottome line? said by Morac :1. Pay TiVo a licensing fee for each DVR set top box they have deployed. 2. Disable recording on all their deployed DVR set top boxes. 3. Do nothing and get hit with major penalties for every day they ignore the judges ruling. 4. Appeal to the Supreme Court. How this will most likely playout:
If none of the Tivo patents are voided upon re-examination, Dish and Echostar will be in a tough place.
Option #1: Tivo already has them over a barrel and is asking a fee which is too high and so Echostar has balked completely at #1 so far. Paying a $200 million plus fee and penalties is still cheaper while they wait for the final results.
Option #2: Really isn't an option, unless they want to lose millions of customers. This is the reason they haven't disabled the DVR's yet despite being ordered to do so (and the result is this $200 million contempt fine)
Option #3: This is what they are currently doing, but they also have been trying to have some of the Patents they are accused of violating overturned, and also, they've completely redesigned their DVR's to avoid Tivo's patents (but this has proven difficult because of the scope of some of them). It's hardly "do nothing" but in terms of the action it's "We're not turning them off, we'll take the punishment rather then obey."
Option #4: Most likely outcome, but unless some patents are voided or dismissed this is a long shot at best. In the end it may come down to #1 on Tivo's term and a large price hike across the board for Dish subscribers.
Everyone else is next.
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| cpsycho
join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON
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| WTF? I guess they should sue me next my home theater PC does most of the same stuff.
They could technically sue the whole internet. Dont forget about computer manufacturers.
I really hope the world is gonna end soon, all this bull is just making life not worth living.
Bring on WWIII | |
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cdru
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Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: WTF? said by cpsycho :I guess they should sue me next my home theater PC does most of the same stuff. No, they wouldn't come after you. They would come after the manufacturer or developer that made the product that allows you to do what you do on your computer, if they think it's infringing. It's not a patent violation to duplicate someone else's invention. It's a patent violation to duplicate it and try to sell it to others or otherwise market it. | |
| | | apollo80
join:2002-01-31
Richmond, VA
| Re: WTF? said by cdru :said by cpsycho :I guess they should sue me next my home theater PC does most of the same stuff. No, they wouldn't come after you. They would come after the manufacturer or developer that made the product that allows you to do what you do on your computer, if they think it's infringing. It's not a patent violation to duplicate someone else's invention. It's a patent violation to duplicate it and try to sell it to others or otherwise market it. So TiVO could sue Microsoft for the integration of Windows Media Center into some of their operating systems? WOW... | |
| | | | hottboiinnc
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| Re: WTF? TiVO isn't big enough to take on MSFT.
Also Media Center has probably been around long before TiVO even started building their boxes.
If they think they can take on MSFT, they better have their ducks in a row, only because MSFT can stomp them like a fly. | |
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cdru
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| said by apollo80 :So TiVO could sue Microsoft for the integration of Windows Media Center into some of their operating systems? WOW... If Microsoft offered a product that infringed on one of TiVO's patents, yes they could be sued.
If/when Tivo goes after Microsoft it will be after any legal loose ends have been cleared up in the Echostar case and TiVO has extremely solid case law to build upon. There is no point in taking on several cases at once before the dust has even started to setting on the initial case.
Microsoft also has a considerable patent portfolio of their own that they keep as a defensive weapon. If TiVO ever came after them, they would break out those patents and make it very difficult for TiVO to fight one case with multiple additional counter suits coming back at them. It would take a very sizable war chest for TiVO to do so, which is what they are trying to build up with these early lawsuits in addition to case law.
Finally, Microsoft would just buy TiVO. They wouldn't even bat an eyelash at what it would cost. MSFT has $8b in cash on hand with another $12b in short term investments. The amount it would take to crush TiVO is almost a rounding error.
Look up SCO v. IBM or SCO v. Novell to see what happens when a relatively small company attempts to pick a fight with the largest IT companies in the world. | |
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cdru
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| Re: WTF? said by KrK :Did you hear? This case is back from the dead. Looks like the Federal Appeals court Judges ruled Novell did NOT own the code. SCO is back in business and the lawyers are full steam ahead. Both the cases vs Novell and IBM are back on. Return of the Living dead, patent lawsuit style. » news.digitaltrends.com/news-arti···erturned Yes I did hear, but also read more into it as well as read the latest news. Your post is slightly inaccurate.
The judge didn't rule that Novell doesn't own the copyrights, the judge ruled that there enough ambiguity in the APA that the summary judgement entered my Kimball was improper and that a jury trial would be more appropriate. A jury still could find in favor of Novell. That is if it even realyl goes back to a jury. Novell filed an rehearing en banc to go back to a full panel of 9 (or in this case 8) appealate judges, just just a partial panel of 3 judges.
As to being full steam ahead, hardly. Even if it does eventually get remanded back to the lower court and stays there, it's not certain if SCO can or will continue to fight it. The appeals court upheld that Novell was entitled to royalties from the Sun licensing agreement that fueled SCO's war chest early on. SCO now has to pay that to Novell, although that leads into the other issue, SCO's Chapter 11 proceedings.
SCO's management is effectively no longer in control of the company's legal future. A court appointed trustee is now running things and gets to decide if continuing the lawsuits is in the creditors best interest, if assets should be sold off, or what exactly the future holds for SCO.
The Novell case must be decided before the IBM case can proceed since Novell's claim of ownership destroys SCO's case against IBM if upheld. | |
| | | cpsycho
join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON | I did make it a product. I bought all the pieces, put it together. I sell computers too. I even get requests to turn computers into home theater pc's. I just hope their bs patent does not hold water in canada. | |
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cdru
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Fort Wayne, IN
| Re: WTF? said by cpsycho :I did make it a product. I bought all the pieces, put it together. I sell computers too. I even get requests to turn computers into home theater pc's. Right. Separate discrete components. Microsoft wouldn't be liable for a patent that saved a ATSC as a MPEG stream for instance because they didn't make the capture card. It's hard to infringe on a patent with a technology you don't touch.
However Microsoft could be infringing on the automatic rewind of a program when coming out of a fast forward.
I just hope their bs patent does not hold water in canada.
I wouldn't stake my business on it. I've never seen any indication that the Canadian version of the US patent wouldn't hold up as well, especially if it goes through the US patent and legal system successfully. Presuming you are a smaller shop, you likely have nothing to worry about directly as TiVO would go after the money, from the manufacturers or Microsoft, or possibly the big time computer manufacturers like HP and Dell. | |
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