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Ditch Your Contract If Your Speed Stinks?
What happens when real world speeds don't match up with advertised speeds...
by Karl Bode Thursday 20-Dec-2007 tags: bandwidth · world
While technicians and informed users know that an "up to 3Mbps" connection means under optimal conditions (line quality, CO distance), less informed consumers are repeatedly surprised when they perform their first speed test and notice they're getting significantly less. While some have suggested regulator-enforced speed tests to ensure customers are getting what they pay for, there's too many factors to consider (trojan infection? poor home wiring?) to make proper enforcement practical.

A recent UK survey showed that 62% routinely get less than half of the top speed advertised by their provider. UK consumer watchdog "Which?" also reported that users in the UK often see a third of the speed stated in advertisements. The group found that buyers of an "up to 8 Mbps" tier actually achieved 2.7Mbps on average, and some didn't see speeds any faster than 0.09Mbps. Nobody surveyed saw speeds faster than 6.7Mbps.

That gaping difference between advertised and real prices has resulted in pressure on regulators to change the way ISPs do business. UK consumer advocates would like to see a number of changes, including the ability to opt-out of one's contract if your line speed varies significantly from the advertised speed.

With the arrival of long-term contracts here in the States, is it only fair to allow users out if they're not getting what they pay for? Or does that in essence make ISPs liable for line conditions they may not always have control over?

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L337
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Chicago, IL

I would ditch it but...

They lock you in a 1 year contract if you haven't forgotten plus the lame penalty fee!

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Austin, TX
kudos:1

Re: I would ditch it but...

Well and there is the issue. The article isn't suggesting any penalty for the ISP, other than the user being able to cancel their long term contract based on less than expected performance. I see absolutely no problem with that idea.
--
Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

I DO see a problem with that.

For one, NEITHER side is 100% trust-able. The remedy is simple..

1) Don't care if the customer isn't sophisticated or not.. Simple English is what it is... the line may not reach up to the stated speeds for various reasons.

2) The customer loves to lie. If people don't believe me, this very site is proof - there are people almost daily telling others how to lie to cable and phone to get a better deal or break a contract. (ie: "Call the company and tell then you will leave to go to X, and they will give you an offer of "X" to stay which you can't get by just asking")

3) Penalties SHOULD apply no matter what. You have generally 15 or 30 days to try the service. If you don't like it, you can cancel usually with out the penalty. However, that whopping $100 penalty fee you are charged to cancel is usually the difference or cost of what they gave you in discounts anyway - so maybe the consumer should work with the company to get the problem resolved.

To be honest.. I don't blame the phone company (Excuse me while I choke on that) for doubting the consumer at every turn. There are way too many people out there that are dishonest and if the phone company (since this is what we are talking about) caved to every person, they'd go broke. Many times the problem is not the providers, rather, a problem based on bad inside wires, improper installation, customer owned routers, viruses, etc. So, should the phone company simply let you out of a contract because the consumer knows know better? I don't think so..

..and yes.. I'm talking about the phone company even while this article/op-ed piece is using the term "ISP" because in this case, the ISP that uses contracts is phone or cellular service (ie: phone service) and not cable at-large.

Nightshade
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: I would ditch it but...

I don't trust both sides either but I do know that what the company advertises is not a concrete thing. Most people when they see "speeds up to 6Mbps" only see the 6Mbps and ignore the up to, regardless if it's in simple English or not. When they are getting speeds for a lot less then what the company says then they complain that they should get better speeds, totally ignoring the line conditions and the "up to" part. I bet this frustrates the ISP's customer service more than anything getting these types of calls.

Actually, some ISPs can put you in a service contract. Qwest for example. In order to get the price for life guarantee for their DSL service you are locked in a two year contract with the company. So what are saying does apply to ISPs and not exclusively to phone or cellular service. Because most ISPs don't lock you in a service contract The "try before you buy" is pretty much in effect for as long as you pay the monthly fee. But for cellular service, which is contract heavy, there should be a 15 to 30 day trial period before you commit yourself to the service via a contract. As far as I know, none of the cellular providers provide a trial period.
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

said by Nightshade:

Actually, some ISPs can put you in a service contract. Qwest for example. In order to get the price for life guarantee for their DSL service you are locked in a two year contract with the company.
Let's leave Qwest out of this one for a moment because of all the major players, Qwest was the first and pretty much only one to stop the contract crap. Verizon and AT&T pretty much require a contract or sock it to you.... the Qwest price for life is a promotion that allows the customer to keep their price at what it is when they sign the agreement. However, Qwest doesn't put you into a contract from the start.. it's purely an option.

What I am saying DOES in fact apply to the phone company directly because the phone company is the one that does use the contract with their service as does cellular. Cable offers them but again, as an option and only in limited areas at this time. Since the phone company IS the ISP, I still tie that to the phone company direct.

The try before you by is not a promotion - its the law and Yes, all of the cellular companies offer the trial period. Many of them are 15 days.. some states like California have laws that require 30. Many, if not all states, require a break out period with cellular service.

I see where you are coming from, but you're getting confused on a few issues.

Nightshade
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: I would ditch it but...

Yeah I am confused on a few things. For one thing, I didn't know that there are laws that make cellular providers provide a trial period. That is a good thing. I do know that the price for life thing is a option. I should of been more clearer on that. At least you know what my point was and where I was coming from.
--
True Happiness Must Come From Within

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:4
said by fiberguy:

said by Nightshade:

Actually, some ISPs can put you in a service contract. Qwest for example. In order to get the price for life guarantee for their DSL service you are locked in a two year contract with the company.
Let's leave Qwest out of this one for a moment because of all the major players, Qwest was the first and pretty much only one to stop the contract crap.
Huh? qwest requires a 2 year contract with $200 ETF if you cancel early to get the price for life*
-
* life is defined as the package you have(say you have 768/256 and qwest wants to EOL that package, you lose your price for life and whatever else they have that you go for you will have to resign for another two years)
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

I'm sure exactly what you're saying.. but what my point is, if I'm figuring out your question correctly, is that Qwest does not require contracts. Price for life is PURELY an option.. And, to be honest, price for life is a joke anyway. Make ANY change to your service and you lose price for life.

Nightshade
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Re: I would ditch it but...

So if you have Qwest cellular service and want to upgrade it you lose the price for life thing?

Man, you are right! It is a joke.
--
True Happiness Must Come From Within
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

No.... the DSL service...

asdfghjklzx5
Premium
join:2004-05-03
kudos:1
said by fiberguy:

Verizon and AT&T pretty much require a contract or sock it to you.
FYI, AT&T ditched contracts about a year ago (last spring I think).
--
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DrD

@embarqhsd.net
said by Nightshade:

As far as I know, none of the cellular providers provide a trial period.
Sprint has a 30-day trial period.

Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA

1 edit
I call BS..this is a perfect solution to an already one sided business..If the CONSUMER has the right to cancel due to Shitty performance perhaps the ISP will be MORE inclined to advertise truthfully? Or ACTUALLY research and remediate consumer issues? These Companies can not seem to service their customers on their own then let them be REGULATED into it!!! Oh and with Kevin Martin at the helm of the FCC the telcos will NEVER go broke
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»davescustompc.com
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

said by Hangmn:

If the CONSUMER has the right to cancel due to Shitty performance perhaps the ISP will be MORE inclined to advertise truthfully? Or ACTUALLY research and remediate consumer issues? These Companies can not seem to service their customers on their own then let them be REGULATED into it!!!
Two problems:

1) we don't "regulate" people into compliance.. there are legal systems for that and laws already in place - enforce them.

2) how do you distibguish between "ISP shitty performance" and, say, bad routers, viruses, and any of the other dozen issues that are non-ISP related? The ISP/Phone company IS-NOT responsible for that and should not be. It's not THEIR fault that the consumer doesn't have their house in order and the consumer should not be able to terminate a contract 'just because they can't get the speed'...

The truth to networking, that many people forget, is that every point of the line is prone to failure. MANY TIMES, that point is in the hand of the customer beyond the responsibility of the ISP.

You stated that the ISP would be "MORE inclined to advertise truthfully"... where are they lying today? There is a difference between what is being said and what the consumer wants to hear, and/or simply ignores..

.. as far as I know, everything I've read about the advertisement clearly states that service speeds may vary due to X reasons.... and so far that's been true. They also said "speeds up to..X" and again, that has also been true. I've yet to hear any ISP state (going back to dial up modems) anything like "we guarantee your speed will always be X fast"... then I'd say they are not being truthful.

Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA

Re: I would ditch it but...

And a point of failure outside the consumer's home is 90% of the time "stumbled" on by the ISP Engineers. Never is a poor performance complaint EVER (or very rarely) investigated past the Demark. Also how many times have you heard "the error is at the peer or backbone level" and "beyond our control" Its not "beyond their control" Its a fucking network ticket to the peer provider...solving the problem for MANY consumers. Again ..bounce.. shitty performance SHOULD be grounds for contract dismissal by the consumer...
--
»davescustompc.com
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

Where are you getting your stats from?

"fucking" and "shitty"? I guess that makes it more serious.

Either way, you're still missing the point at hand.. it's clear you've had issues and you want to vent.. that's your right... but I'll stick to the facts and the argument at hand.

I don't disagree that if a company is failing to provide OR do something about the service that a customer should be able to leave with out penalty.. but the ISP also should have the right to verify their service at the DMARK and rule from there. Further, if they do have to "verify" the service at the home and it's found to be "no problem" then the customer should also pay.

The consumer wanted the right to certain things when it came to phone service years ago.. to have control over inside wiring, phone sets. etc.. with that came other obligations. One of those was that phone isn't responsible for any problem inside.. So, if there is a problem inside the house, which by the way, is where 90% of these problems are for your information, then the customer has the right/obligation to pay.

Until the customer is honest, why should the provider go way out of their way to be easy in return?

nekkidtruth
You fail at life.
Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
Reviews:
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Re: I would ditch it but...

I'd just like to add that having worked for 2 different ISP's as a technical support agent, it is relatively easy to determine whether an issue is the users problem, or the ISP's.

I'm sorry but even without having been a tech support agent, I know there are certain things that can easily help determine who's problem it is. Maybe the issue is that tier 1 and 2 tech agents aren't properly trained to troubleshoot and or haven't the slightest idea how to do their JOB save reading from a script.

They have tools that check the line stats both DSL and cable. Either the issue is in fact with the service, or there is an issue with the customers computer. Regardless, it should take a matter of a few seconds to determine which the issue is. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. Once it's established there is an issue with the service or the customer's computer, it's pretty simple to establish which route to take (ie. escalate or refer to someone else).
--
Weeeeeee

Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA
Oh and the ISPs are honest? Hijacking mis typed URLs for profit and getting busted after out right lying about FORGING PACKETS...calling it "reasonable network management"? Please your shill arguments are falling on deaf ears
--
»davescustompc.com
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

Re: I would ditch it but...

Dude... take your adolescent rant elsewhere. Really adult of you to attack someone, personally, because of their opinion.

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Austin, TX
kudos:1
said by fiberguy:

2) how do you distibguish between "ISP shitty performance" and, say, bad routers, viruses, and any of the other dozen issues that are non-ISP related? The ISP/Phone company IS-NOT responsible for that and should not be. It's not THEIR fault that the consumer doesn't have their house in order and the consumer should not be able to terminate a contract 'just because they can't get the speed'...

The truth to networking, that many people forget, is that every point of the line is prone to failure. MANY TIMES, that point is in the hand of the customer beyond the responsibility of the ISP.
The answer is, (keeping with telco/DSL) a tech can plug in at the outside box, in front of the home wiring/routers/computers and check the sync rate.

Now I'm not complaining or even suggesting this be applied to cases where "up to 6Mb" ends up being 4.7Mbps, and a customer complaining. The article is talking about ISPs whos AVERAGE 8Mb service is less than half, with many under 3Mbps. When you are THAT far off, with THAT many people, something isn't right with your advertising.
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bear73 See Profile

Re: I would ditch it but...

This is what needs to happen, when our customer calls in complaning of slow speed, a speed test should be run, those numbers should be imputed into the trouble ticket ie: AT7T elite-6mb service, cust gets 1.34 on speed test) then the tech goes to the nid, runs a speed test from there, and lets say he gets 5.2mb, thus trouble is not in at&t's facilities, similar to how pots repair troubleshoots voice issues, so now we know its either: a bad modem, a bad filter (should of allready been check by tier 2's list), or outher inside wiring issue. advise customer of such if they are home, and state it will be xx for me to come in and if its not the modem/filters ie its an inside wiring issue, there will be a charge to fix it. And before you alll flame me for the added costs to roll that many trucks, do what pots do, offer a maintence/warranty at xx dollars per months. ("For just 4.99 a month, you can have uninterupted HSI service. Modem bad? A new one will be shipped for no cost (S&H included) Need a Tech to roll? no charge for a service call") For those that dont opt for this plan there will be a 70.00 charge to roll a tech. which we'll wave if u agree to signup for the DSL Inside Maintence Plan.

Who agrees with me?

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Austin, TX
kudos:1

Re: I would ditch it but...

said by DSLInstallTech :

This is what needs to happen, when our customer calls in complaning of slow speed, a speed test should be run, those numbers should be imputed into the trouble ticket ie: AT7T elite-6mb service, cust gets 1.34 on speed test) then the tech goes to the nid, runs a speed test from there, and lets say he gets 5.2mb, thus trouble is not in at&t's facilities, similar to how pots repair troubleshoots voice issues, so now we know its either: a bad modem, a bad filter (should of allready been check by tier 2's list), or outher inside wiring issue. advise customer of such if they are home, and state it will be xx for me to come in and if its not the modem/filters ie its an inside wiring issue, there will be a charge to fix it. And before you alll flame me for the added costs to roll that many trucks, do what pots do, offer a maintence/warranty at xx dollars per months. ("For just 4.99 a month, you can have uninterupted HSI service. Modem bad? A new one will be shipped for no cost (S&H included) Need a Tech to roll? no charge for a service call") For those that dont opt for this plan there will be a 70.00 charge to roll a tech. which we'll wave if u agree to signup for the DSL Inside Maintence Plan.

Who agrees with me?
I fully support that, so long as the fee is waived if it is found to be the outside line or modem. I thought it was that way already, but I guess not.
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koma3504
Advocate
Premium
join:2004-06-22
North Richland Hills, TX

Re: I would ditch it but...

It is already that way if you have the IW plan.
hurfy
Premium
join:2002-08-06
Spokane, WA
So the service i tried years ago when i thought about cable should be ok? Luckily it had a 30-money back guarentee...tho i am not sure who they gave my money back to That did have a contract to cover the free installation (drill a hole and shove a long cable thru it, literally)

Cable service at the time was like 2M when i get home from work and run a speed test it clocks in at 12K. They had totally oversold it with no date when it gets better (line was there, it would get over 1M after 2am!) No problem if you get locked into a contract with that then?

I see no reason they can't give you over half what they sold you at a minimum. Or sell what they can provide. The power company doesn't sell me 1Kwh and give me half that cause the power line across the state sucked it all up...

La Luna
Survived Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online
said by Hangmn:

I call BS..this is a perfect solution to an already one sided business..If the CONSUMER has the right to cancel due to Shitty performance perhaps the ISP will be MORE inclined to advertise truthfully?....
And who is going to "remediate" customers who try to ignore or refuse to comprehend or try to play the semantics game (ie, play stupid) with the simple kindergarten term "up to"?

I bet if they were in jail for "up to" 10 years, they'd be looking to get out in five...."well, you said 'UP TO'....five is fine, right?". Suddenly, the meaning of the term would be crystal clear to them.
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Hangmn
Don't Fight It...It's Inevitable
Premium
join:2000-04-08
Philadelphia, PA

Re: I would ditch it but...

How about the floor mangers who refuse to take calls?
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»davescustompc.com

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

It would be unreasonable to impose a requirement in regard to every customer - there are too many variables, as mentioned in the blurb. But why not something like the Federal regulation for fuel economy in cars. The carmakers have to have the average of all their models (sold units? weighted by how many of each model?) up to the required standard.

Similarly, the ISPs could be rated for the average that customers actually get in each tier or plan, based on samples of many customers at various times, or some sort of testing scheme. They should have to disclose the results too and give compensation for those who consistently get way below the norm.

Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept

join:2004-06-26
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Embarq Now Centu..

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

Your post is undergoing examination by TheCliqueClub, as well as certain FanBouys, as it has come to their attention that it displays above average common sense
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openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:1
Who does the tests and with what configuration? I've seen some computers that aren't really capable of achieving some of the advertised throughputs regardless of whether the provider is actually able to provide it. There are still too many variables to attempt your scenario.

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

1 edit

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

The new EPA mileage test is supposed to represent typical city or highway driving. When measuring inflation, the test shoppers get a standard basket of goods, designed to represent what most people typically need.

Similarly, the test would sample subscribers who would be verified to have common configurations (invited to volunteer, like with TV ratings) - say, a PC running late-model Windows, with 10/100 ethernet, whatever kind of modem the ISP gives out, and medium distance from the ISP's CO/box/whatever it is.

The PC doesn't make much difference apart from the network card. Things like routes and congestion would average out with different individuals and different times of day and days of the week.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:1

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

The NIC and the system most definitely make a difference (I don't think my P133 firewall would perform very well if I loaded up Win XP like you suggest). So does the software running on the system and the "integrity" of the software (think compromised system). Unless you want to give these testers baselined test equipment and ensure it's installed correctly, there is no way to accurately test what you are asking to test.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

Yes, and USB cards are pretty slow, too. That's why I'm sure we can determine a good base line machine. A P133 isn't very useful for most people now.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:1

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

That was my point. Without defining a baseline for a test machine, and ensuring testers have the baselined machine, the test is invalid. And my P133 is chugging along nicely as my BSD firewall with four interfaces. It has no problem passing traffic to max out my 10/1 connection. However, I don't think the same could be said if I loaded Win XP, which was my other point.
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: A great sign...

Rather than have to deal with computer user's problems, why not put in a speed tester CLIENT into the modem/router?

Yauch

join:2005-06-24
The simple answer is to run the test from inside of the customers premise equipment or modem. A lot of brands have that capability already.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:1

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

You mean the test is run by the ISP using tools built into the CPE? If the CPE has the capability, then yes, that's an option. Then you just need to work on the motivation for doing so. And then if you get past that, what's the benefit?
Austinloop

join:2001-08-19
Austin, TX
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

Lets not forget that a test from the cpe may not be a true indicator of the speed. It was mentioned above that inside wiring is the responsible of the customer, not the telco and there are many types of inside wiring, not necessarily twisted pair, etc. etc....
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:1

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

Testing from the CPE is the most "accurate" for the goal that this conversation was initiated for and would be a "true" indicator of throughput if the connection was installed by the ISP. The problem that you're probably referring to is that the installers (if they even visit the customers' premises) often don't install the lines to the CPEs and then they have no quality control mechanism.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA
OH come on. I work in IT and 100% of our 2k plus machine can do this. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that if your machine is running Windows 2000 you can get the advertised speeds. The ISP have minimum machine requirements, and that should be good enough. As far as other configurations and who does the test, establish as base configuration of 1 computer, within the minimum requirements and go through several different bandwidth testing sites. Take the median values... We can come up with a solution.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:1

Re: How about enforcing it like the "fleet average"

If you work in IT, then you should have a fairly good understanding about how many consumers' computers are comprised (knowingly or otherwise) in the world and how that may invalidate any test that you want to run even if it's on the most robust workstation available today. Relying on ignorant consumers and their minimum spec'd computer (BTW, the specs are for the crappy software that ISPs want you to load and the "CSR zombies", not for connecting to the network) is insufficient for a test that's geared towards providing blame or exposing alleged limitations of ISPs.
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
I have 5Mbps cable service and until I tweaked my tcp receive window, I could only benchmark tests at 4.000Mbps. After tweaking my receive window, the speed went up to 4.9Mbps.

I would bet that most customers who have speed beyond 3.0Mbps need to be tweaked before they will get the full benefit of their potential bandwidth.

In my opinion, damn the tests. Damn the regulation. Damn the easy contract out.

What's the best way to improve a company's product?

COMPETITION

The only way we're all going to be happy is if we have choices. Only choice provides a universal motivation for companies to treat customers with respect and provide the best possible product while still making investors happy with a modest profit. Right now most of us don't have a choice. Only the precious few have multiple HSI and video choices. The government should be working with incentives and regulation to foster competition. Oh, and one more thing, we should STOP funding the GD telcos and wireless companies with the USF and make them plow their own fields. If it isn't profitable to be in some rural, swamp town, let the local residents build a muni project or, if they prefer to be like Green Acres where they have to climb a pole for voice, so be it.

Anonone

@sbcglobal.net
said by openbox9:

Who does the tests and with what configuration? I've seen some computers that aren't really capable of achieving some of the advertised throughputs regardless of whether the provider is actually able to provide it. There are still too many variables to attempt your scenario.
Huh? Can't get network throughput of less than 10mbps?
amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

yes.

"is it only fair to allow users out if they're not getting what they pay for? Or does that in essence make ISPs liable for line conditions they may not always have control over?"

I think so. If I got a 3Mbps package, I'd expect at least 2.5Mbps. Liable for line conditions? You better bet. ...I thought they had at least some control over their own infrastructure. In home is different, and subject to whatever terms......

Glad to have no contract and BETTER than advertised speeds from Cox. Thank you Cox. If I had DSL, I'd still expect it to be within an acceptable speed range. There should be an acceptable range for such packages. It should be realistic.
If you're in one range, they should be able to set your plan accordingly.
If it's way over, like several megabits, then maybe you could have the option of keeping that turbo plan or downgrading to something more long the lines of what you want to pay for.

Cox seems to have a good idea - upgrade people, see if they can actually get those speeds, then announce higher speeds and work them into the plans.

I started at around 3Mbps with them (it was actually testing at 4-5). They bumped the "preferred" (read: most commonly purchased plan...) up to 4 or 5 (I don't remember). A year or two later, I started seeing closer to 7-10Mbps. Guess what - they then bumped preferred into the 7Mbps range. Works pretty well I think.
hoyleysox

join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

speeds vary - its not always the ISPs fault.

It is not obvious to an end-user what is causing slower throughput. If you buy a ferrari because the salesman tells you it drives 200 mph, but can't drive that fast because of road conditions, you don't get to return the ferrari.

There are many factors that limit the end user's realized or perceived throughput that the ISP cannot control:

Upstream transmissions reduce download speeds.
Site host's upstream bandwidth availability.
Resource intensive local applications.
The backhaul network's routing to the site.
Botnet infections using your the bandwidth.
Neighbor sharing your wifi.
Poor inside wiring.
etc...
jammmin

join:2000-12-14
Upper Marlboro, MD

No going to happen

That is why they all advertise "Up to" a certain speed level.

Even Verizon FIOS does that also.

Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:15

ISP errors should invalidate contracts

Well, the obvious thing would be to forbid ISPs from anti-consumer lock-in contracts. There is no good reason that they should exist, as a superior option is offering the ability to pre-pay for a year. It's pro-rated by nature, and consumers would have a much better idea what they're getting themselves into with a pre-paid year rather than a one-year contract.

The primary problem with contracts is that ISPs often refuse to terminate them even when they themselves make substantial changes to their service offerings. Witness examples of Bell refusing to let customers out of contracts even though they've change the service from unlimited to 30GB cap, and begun throttling P2P. Many people find that they can't use the service for the things they bought it for, but Bell won't let them out of their contract.

That said, yes, ISPs should allow customers out of contracts if they can't provide a reasonable speed. You have to keep in mind that in the vast majority of cases, poor DSL speeds are caused by the distance from the customer to the CO. This is something that ISPs know *IN ADVANCE*, before the customer orders. If they sell 7mbit service to somebody 6000m from the CO, well, duh, they're not going to get 7mbit. If they still insist on selling the customer the service (at this point, let's assume it's an error on the ISP's fault and they forgot to check the distance, or had an error in their database), then that's the ISP's error, and they need to correct it.
jdjbuffalo

join:2004-01-17
Denver, CO

Re: ISP errors should invalidate contracts

If the ISP is changing the service, especially to the detriment of the customer, then THEY are breaking the contract. So it's already invalidated.

Most people don't want to go to court over something like this but if they wanted to charge me $250 after THEY changed the service then you better believe that I'll take them to small claims court. If even 1% of users did this you would see them stop this crap immediately.

Although, as another poster pointed out, the best cure for this and all the other crap they pull is COMPETITION. If we had real competition (10+ ISPs to choose from) then this stuff would fix it self, so to speak.

Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:15

Re: ISP errors should invalidate contracts

In Bell's service area, they do have competition. Yes, those competitors still use Bell's lines, but other than a base charge for the line ($20.50/mth for the standard 5mbit service), the ISPs decide how much to charge (typically $30-40/mth).

Many of these ISPs don't even offer contracts. My ISP refuses to offer contracts, saying that they're anti-consumer. They do offer the ability to pre-pay a year at a bit of a discount, though, since people kept asking for stuff like that.

Anyhow, the competition (from both the cable internet providers that service the same area, and the wholesaler DSL ISPs) hasn't stopped Bell from getting worse and worse. Many of the wholesaler ISPs offer better quality at cheaper prices.

The thing is, Bell is the big telco, so they seem content to hold onto their core customers, the people who don't know anything about technology and are just happy if their hotmail loads eventually when they open their browsers. There are so many of these customers who just care if it works (at any speed), that they can let the wholesalers deal with more demanding consumers.

So, unfortunately, it seems like the only way that we're going to get good service is if the CRTC (our version of the FCC) continues to regulate the phone companies (Bell, Telus) requiring them to share their lines at reasonable prices. Better than nothing, I suppose.

Millenniumle

join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY

Latency issue?

I've noticed since swiching to DSL from cable that I have a nearly 200 millisecond latency across the board. I have to increase my RWIN even over LAN to achieve advertised speed, something I previously only needed to do over WLAN. The advertised speed is there, but I bet most users in my ISP don't see it. And boy does a 200 millisecond latency put one heck of a kabosh on throughput in a hurry. 2 or 3 Mbps of a 6 Mbps connection over LAN and .5 to .7 Mbps over WLAN.

I wonder if the ISP in question is a result of the same problem.

gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall

join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA

2 edits

Just be honest

My ISP told me up front that there was an overhead attached to upstream and downstream, and that if I didnt reach a percentage (I think 80%) of advertised speeds, that I should call them and they would fix the problem.
I am happy with that

They also offered to switch me to a lower price tier without incurring early termination fees, if they couldnt get the higher tier working properly.

verolom

join:2002-03-23
Reston, VA

Re: Just be honest

Advertising throughput that cannot be achieved for whatever reason, especially a known one (overhead, CO distance, bandwidth hog neighbor) should be considered bait-and switch and should invalidate any "contract". In my view any contract should come with an SLA that clearly and verifiably defines all aspects of the service. There is a clear demarcation point that can facilitate the verification.

If the ISP will not provide certain level of service why should the user be required to provide a certain level of payment?

digitallife4ever

@umusic.com

AT&T Download Speeds

What annoyed me with AT&T was this.

I had purchased the "up to" 6 Mbps service which was working great for 6 months. Out of the blue, I started only getting 2.7 Mbps max on the download. After complaining, they bumped me down to the "up to" 3 Mbps service.

You would think if my line previously qualified up to 2.7 Mbps, I'd be able to maintain that even with the 3 Mpbs package? Noooooo, I started getting maximum speeds of 1.3 Mbps and tech support would only tell me that my line couldn't handle anything faster than 1.3.

Then they tried to bump me down to the 1.5 Mbps promising more reliable/consistent service. No thanks. I'm sure I would have gotten maximum speeds of 768 Kbps if I let them downgrade me again.

How can someone less than 900 ft from the CO in a brand new developed area get such poor DSL speeds?

Millenniumle

join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY

Re: AT&T Download Speeds

If latency is the issue, that is exactly what you'd expect to see: Throughput well below line speed. Drop the line speed, drop the throughput.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

1 edit
That sucks...
I had initialy 1.5/256 from AT&T for 1 year (PPPoE no less)
After the 1 year promo expired, DSL-Extreme offered same price as AT&T has initially, and for a couple $$ more, 3Mbps/512kbps on DHCP.
It worked well. After ~ 1 year (just after renewing, no less), I ended up getting some sync loss, and ended up living at between 2496/512kpbs and 1984/512kbps for quite some time.

AT&T stated that I should only be at 1500/384 because I'm near 12,000' from the CO (prequal at 9,000').
After AT&T's rewiring for Uverse (line drop was due to water in the lines - typically when sprinklers went off, my SNR went into the toilet... same time every day for ~ 6 months).
Now I have a really steady 3008/512kbps sync @ 12,000', and AT&T (through web or store or even resellers like DSL-Extreme) will give 1500/384 kbps. :mad:

Home> wan adsl line near
$ tracert www.yahoo.com
 
Tracing route to www.yahoo-ht3.akadns.net [209.131.36.158]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.254.11 
  2    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  netblock-68-183-52-1.dslextreme.com [68.183.52.1] 
  3    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  LAX1.CR1.Gig6-0.dslextreme.com [66.51.199.133] 
  4    20 ms    21 ms    20 ms  netblock-66-51-198-182.dslextreme.com [66.51.198.182] 
  5    20 ms    20 ms    29 ms  PAT2.SJC.yahoo.com [206.223.116.16] 
  6    21 ms    21 ms    22 ms  g-1-0-0-p171.msr2.sp1.yahoo.com [216.115.107.87] 
  7    20 ms    20 ms    21 ms  te-8-1.bas-a1.sp1.yahoo.com [209.131.32.17] 
  8    23 ms    21 ms    22 ms  f1.www.vip.sp1.yahoo.com [209.131.36.158] 
 
Home> wan adsl chan data
near-end interleaved channel bit rate: 0 kbps
near-end fast channel bit rate: 3008 kbps
far-end interleaved channel bit rate: 0 kbps
far-end fast channel bit rate: 512 kbps
 
relative capacity occupation: 54%
noise margin downstream: 13.0 db
output power upstream: 12.0 dbm
attenuation downstream: 47.5 db
Node-Lnk Status      TxPkts      RxPkts      Errors  Tx B/s  Rx B/s     Up Time
 1-ENET  Up         3939640     5397500           0       0       0   113:09:26
 

--
Canada = Hollywood North

DotMac4
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA

If you want an SLA

Buy an SLA.

benc
Premium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL
Reviews:
·Charter

Re: If you want an SLA

Even in the case of the SLA, it's not the provider's problem if your network has problems.

In the case of DSL, I do believe that the speed should be measured when the modem is jacked straight into the DEMARC. Now, if that speed is too slow, then you should complain.

But if your router is overloaded, or you have ten users on a 10Mbps hub (note I did not say switch), I don't see how that's the provider's problem.

Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-01
IA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Mediacom

No

You agree to a contract that clearly states "up to XX Mbit", most of the time you get 30 days or so to test the service. If you want something better than that get a business account with a guaranteed service.

Most of the time people agree to a contract just to get a free installation/hardware and/or a monthly discount.
nbicomputers

join:2002-03-31
Bronx, NY

Simple solution

just sell the bandwith in ranges of speed such as.
for 19.95 per month you will get between 768 and 1,500 Mb
for 29.95 you will get between 1,500 and 3000 Mb
with a no less than in the contract

You will bet between 1,500 and 3,000 Mb per second download speed in any case you will get NO Less than 1,500 Mb and normally you will get no more than 3,00 Mb
marv60

join:2005-08-19
New Orleans, LA

Re: Simple solution

May I make a few comments! A comment was made that it is not the providers fault if your house is not in order. I pay for in home wiring(for the last 30 or more years), so if the in home wiring is not up to snuff it is their fault. I pay for 3.0mb service and if I get 1.5 service instead then they should bill me for the lower service and skip the bull about of up to speeds. And when I went from 1.5 service(actually got about 1.2 service) to 3.0 service(actually got better than 3.0) than then all of a sudden the service drops to less than 500kbs, then I would say that the provider has a problem that should be fixed and if they cannot fix it then they should not hold one to the contract. Just my two cents worth. For years my provider told me that the best they could do was 1.5, but I found out that my neighbor was getting 3.0 and after much complaining they upped me to 3.0. His line comes from the same box as mine. Also, they should be able to tell you what you can actually expect, instead of saying that nothing is quaranteed.

What is find interesting is that Cox Communication advertizes high speed service up to 2.5 times faster than the fastest dsl(in NO up to 6.0), but actually delivers much slower service, while in Boston, Comcast actually provides some home service as fast as 30mb, Why the big difference?

erice30

@verizon.net
Yes i get over 3 Mbps on my DSL and i have the 3 meg teir so thats not allways true
NetKrazy

join:2007-11-29
Littleton, CO

SLA's and guarantee's

What an interesting mix when you start entering in a shared environment such as cable. Consumers call for the services they "pay for" but don't often consider what they are paying for. Regardless of any marketing spin the medium is a shared resource and the business model ONLY works in a shared environment. Even the banner of this very site pitches a T1 at 359 per month... that's only 1.5mbps. This is a far cry from the $50 per month for "up to 3mbps" service.

what if you offer a range as suggested above. Will the consumers be content if they are in the "low" end of the range 70% of the time. What if they are on the low end between the hours of 4 and 12 in the evening when usage is the highest. If a consumer can't take into consideration "up to" can they understand the "lower" number?

MSO's often receive complaints "My service is fine in the morning and late at night" and will never accept the answer of "Well sir it is peak hours and your service is 'up to'".

So as a business or a consumer when you compare the difference in price between DSL and modems, a T1's and DS3 what level of service do you expect? If you should get 1.5mbps at all times on your 6meg modem should you be paying $359.00 for internet to your house to ensure your minimum.

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