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Do Not Track Discussion Has Become a Farce
Direct Marketing Association Not Even Trying...
by Karl Bode 09:12AM Wednesday Oct 10 2012
The effort to get Do Not Track functionality embedded into browsers has descended into total farce. It was already farce in that neither the FTC, the W3C, nor the marketing, content and telecom industries really wanted to jeopardize the billions to be made from snoopertising by empowering consumers. But when Microsoft recently proclaimed they'd be enabling Do Not Track by default on IE 10, whether it was for the press, an edge on Chrome or altruism -- all discussion imploded. Last week a coalition against Do Not Track sent a letter to Microsoft crying that they were harming the Internet experience.

Consumer advocates say since Microsoft's announcement the marketing industry has stopped negotiating entirely, and the discussion over giving consumers a useful choice is all but dead. Ed Bott over at ZDNet, highlights just how absurd things have now become, pointing out a recent proposal by the marketing industry that would redefine "Do Not Track" as "yes sir, please track me all the time." The Direct Marketing Association (DMA) this week proposed this change to the Do Not Track standard:
quote:
Marketing should be added to the list of "Permitted Uses for Third Parties and Service Providers" in Section 6.1 of the Tracking Definitions and Compliance Document.
When asked to defend adding marketing to a standard designed to help consumers avoid intrusive marketing (apparently by one of the six people left who care about this stuff), the Direct Marketing Association launched into a tirade on the pure awesomeness of marketing:
quote:
Marketing fuels the world. It is as American as apple pie and delivers relevant advertising to consumers about products they will be interested at a time they are interested. DNT should permit it as one of the most important values of civil society. Its byproduct also furthers democracy, free speech, and – most importantly in these times – JOBS. It is as critical to society – and the economy – as fraud prevention and IP protection and should be treated the same way.
In short, it's pretty clear that nobody in any industry is serious about giving consumers tools to help deal with intrusive tracking ads, and the marketing industry in particular has completely stopped trying. With regulators totally asleep at the wheel for fear of impacting job creation or offending campaign contributors in an election season, you're not getting them anytime soon. Enjoy having everything you do tracked and sold all the time while being stored insecurely and with no rules governing any of it. What could possibly go wrong?

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topics flat nest 

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Greenwood, IN
kudos:2

MS is to blame for this one

DNT is a great concept, but Microsoft killed it the minute they decided to enable the option by default. Not tracking people who specifically enable the option is one thing, but the majority of websites are just going to ignore the setting completely if it is the default. And as much as I hate tracking, I can't say as though I blame them.

I view it no different than shipping TVs that by default skip commercials, rather than making the user take action to skip them. At least in the latter, advertisers have a chance with lazy people, and advertising really does fund the world we live in.

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: MS is to blame for this one

said by Camelot One:

the majority of websites are just going to ignore the setting completely if it is the default.

The sites are ignoring DNT requests anyway. The MS default setting is just a smokescreen.
--
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat ··· rm_home/
»www.gop.com/2012-republican-plat ··· onalism/
Chubbysumo

join:2009-12-01
Superior, WI
Reviews:
·Charter

1 recommendation

Re: MS is to blame for this one

said by FFH5:

said by Camelot One:

the majority of websites are just going to ignore the setting completely if it is the default.

The sites are ignoring DNT requests anyway. The MS default setting is just a smokescreen.

indeed. If you have firefox, getting NS and AB+ is the best way to kill any tracking by scripts(google analytics is everywhere), and you can only enable the scripts you need for the site to run, not allowing 3rd party tracking cookies, and blocking those pesky facebook like buttons that track where you are(along with anything else you want to block. DNT is a good idea, but currently, every website but the EFF ignores it.
Mike_C

join:2007-07-19
Vancouver, BC

Re: MS is to blame for this one

Ghostery is another good plugin for all browsers that allows more blocking of advertisers, FB, G+ and twitter tracking.
bugabuga

join:2004-06-10
Austin, TX
I think it's stupid. It doesn't matter why DNT is set, it should be honored. If user chose IE because it has that on by default, does that change situation? If non-IE browser will on first start say "Would you like marketing companies to spy on your every page view, select Track Me Please!" and set DNT accordingly, will they start complaining that browser misrepresented the intent of poor marketing companies and thus DNT has to be ignored for that browser too?

If there is a TV that has skip ads on by default, I'd expect some customers to buy it precisely because it's a nice out-of-box experience.
--
Hyperom: Rants about life, politics, technology

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Greenwood, IN
kudos:2

Re: MS is to blame for this one

I see your point, but IE isn't a choice, it is the default on windows. It would be different if it was Firefox or one of the other (better) browsers. Anytime the default option on the default browser excludes marketing, marketers will ignore the option.
--
Intel i7-2600k /ASRock P67 Extreme4 /4x 4Gb G.Skill /2x Intel 510 series 250Gb SSD /3x WD20EADS 2TB /2x PNY GTX 260 /Silverstone 850W /Custom water cooler /Antec Twelve-Hundred

pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON
kudos:1
Advertising doesn't fund shit. All of the money to pay for it comes from our pockets eventually.

The big spenders seem to spend about 5-10+% of their revenue on marketing. That is added on to the cost of everything we buy.

So nothing that comes free with advertising is really free, we spend thousands of dollars a year on it when we buy products for the privilege of having ads inserted into content that we consume.

Personally I wish we'd drop the convoluted bullshit and just pay what things are worth.

Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:14
quote:
DNT is a great concept, but Microsoft killed it the minute they decided to enable the option by default
I wouldnt doubt they did this ON PURPOSE knowing it would cause a ruckus and end up ruining it!!!! (THEY ARE NOT ON PPL'S SIDES ANYMORE..... THEY ARE INTRUSIVE ASSHOLES TRYING TO RUN EVERYONE'S LIVES)

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC

Re:  

said by Dude111:

... THEY (Microsoft) ARE NOT ON PPL'S SIDES ANYMORE.....

They never were.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Joke indeed

All you have to do is look at the Noscript add on at Firefox. News sites are the worst. 20 or more trackers, each one of those trackers have numerous trackers that track each one of them, and on and on. So if you are looking at Russian porno sites just think who knows about it, if you care of course. Those of you who worry about the NSA and such watching you, that is the least of your problems.
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

The DMA does have a point

Marketing fuels the world.

That is true. Without marketing and branding, a lot of the goods we have devolve to a bunch of trinkets and wasteful junk that consumers would ignore. Not exactly good for consumption based economies.

carpetshark3
Premium
join:2004-02-12
Idledale, CO
Reviews:
·CenturyLink

Re: The DMA does have a point

If the companies did pay any attention to tracking, you wouldn't get ads that demographics say you are supposed to be interested in, but actual products that you are.

I subscribe to sites like this - you will never find me on a MS or Apple forum although I do have a couple of Linux forums. Therefore, sending me ads for Windows or Apple products will only get ignored anyway. If I was interested, I would subscribe.

I belong to astronomical sites - there isn't enough business for a major advertising campaign - I get newsletters from the vendors themselves.

Some items are only allowed to be sold through local dealers. If the dealer doesn't have a web site, but depends on newsletters, I'm getting the info from a newsletter, your ad is superfluous.

Some ads - like the spate of roofing companies after a hailstorm are welcome. Gives me more names I can research and check on before deciding.

If I haven't shown any interest in a product in years - ads aren't going to change my mind. Good impartial review sites and not shills just might. If I consider your ad to be a pain - I'll buy from a competitor.

If you really want to direct market and track, then pay attention to what users really do look at. If we aren't mainstream, that's your problem. All the ads in the world won't make us so.

If you support your app via ads - get the ad company to let you vet the ads. I don't mind them on a cell phone/tablet for a free app, but there are some that are not quite appropriate on a game a child can play.

If the app is good enough, I will usually buy it. I don't believe in brand loyalty. Every company can make a lousy product at times.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: The DMA does have a point

Sounds like you are the type of consumer that companies need targeted marketing strategies for. It's refreshing to hear a viewpoint that doesn't outright oppose targeted marketing strategies...at least as long as the targeting improves. That logically progresses to the next discussion about how marketers obtain information to effectively target you.

seamore
Premium
join:2009-11-02

Re: The DMA does have a point

said by openbox9:

Sounds like you are the type of consumer that companies need targeted marketing strategies for. It's refreshing to hear a viewpoint that doesn't outright oppose targeted marketing strategies...at least as long as the targeting improves. That logically progresses to the next discussion about how marketers obtain information to effectively target you.

Do you honestly believe people WANT to be blasted with ads?
Only a fool would think so.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: The DMA does have a point

Sigh. Thanks for returning this forum back to normal.
Expand your moderator at work
Chubbysumo

join:2009-12-01
Superior, WI
Reviews:
·Charter
said by openbox9:

Sounds like you are the type of consumer that companies need targeted marketing strategies for. It's refreshing to hear a viewpoint that doesn't outright oppose targeted marketing strategies...at least as long as the targeting improves. That logically progresses to the next discussion about how marketers obtain information to effectively target you.

I hate random marketing, and would much prefer targeted marketing, but at the same time, I have this knowledge that along with targeted marketing, you get spam ads more often than targeted marketing because some companies dont care, they just want clicks/sales, and will advertise to any eyes that are willing to watch. I like the fact that on sites that I like, I can enable advertising with AB+ and NS to support the site, and most sites that I do like have non-intrusive ads anyways, so, they get my seal of approval, and my clicks. Sites that have overly annoying adverts stay blocked, because my eyeballs hate annoying, flashing, loud sound blasting adverts, especially those that are layover ads.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: The DMA does have a point

said by Chubbysumo:

I hate random marketing, and would much prefer targeted marketing, but at the same time, I have this knowledge that along with targeted marketing, you get spam ads more often than targeted marketing because some companies dont care, they just want clicks/sales, and will advertise to any eyes that are willing to watch.

That's not effective targeting and it will likely cost the marketers more than focusing on targeting strategies.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1

1 recommendation

I use ADBlock Plus, I do not need those security risks into my system. Maybe once ad vendors learn to clean up their own house and get rid of ads with sound and video I will care enough to let them show their ads in my browser again. But I doubt that will happen since rich media ads mixed at 300% volume exist for the same reason TV ads are mixed louder, So that they are harder to simply ignore.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: The DMA does have a point

said by Kearnstd:

Maybe once ad vendors learn to clean up their own house and get rid of ads with sound and video I will care enough to let them show their ads in my browser again.

That is part of an effective targeting strategy. As marketers learn what individual consumers want, they can focus their marketing strategies. Customer A likes to be wowed by lights and sound, then great, Customer A receives those types of ads. Customer B likes low key, less-intrusive ads, then Customer B receives those types of ads. Everyone wins. Targeting doesn't just need to be about what products/services individuals might be interested in, it can also shift the individual marketing strategies as well. Volumes on some TV ads are louder because the current broadcast mechanism of TV does not allow truly effective targeting and therefore advertisers resort to "forcing" consumers to be interested in their products by overwhelming them.

cabana
Department of Adjustments
Premium,Mod
join:2000-07-07
New York, NY

snoopertise

Bottom lining it ...

The discussion is even more basic then the age old debate if marketing is evil or not evil.

It's that you have NO FREAKING choice on being blasted even when you seemingly are told ... you do.

And here is a scenario - how many people have a computer for each and every person in there house ... ok ... number is growing ...
but for example many kids share with their parents -

so lets see ... browsing by X number of people on one computer = arrrrrrrrrrghhhhh

oh and also the assertion that I am so stupid that if I were looking for product xyz ...
I can't possibly wonder into the internets all by myself and research ... I need it spoon fed to me.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: snoopertise

said by cabana:

oh and also the assertion that I am so stupid that if I were looking for product xyz ...
I can't possibly wonder into the internets all by myself and research ... I need it spoon fed to me.

If you're searching for product xyz, then you don't need to be marketed to.

cabana
Department of Adjustments
Premium,Mod
join:2000-07-07
New York, NY

1 edit

Re: snoopertise

said by openbox9:

said by cabana:

oh and also the assertion that I am so stupid that if I were looking for product xyz ...
I can't possibly wonder into the internets all by myself and research ... I need it spoon fed to me.

If you're searching for product xyz, then you don't need to be marketed to.

My assertion is ... I really don't need to be marketed too unless I ask for it ... I should have the right to say ... if you want me to pay a price for me to use your site ... fine.
I understand you gotta pay the rent.

I can even put up with your throwing some ads my way if and when I am in the act of looking for xyz.

But if you tell me you are not tracking me ... but you really are... that I have a problem with.

I don't care to have my information sold nine ways to Sunday ... just so you can throw unwanted crap my way... for so many reasons.

a) because I don't believe there are any teeth in penalties for abuse of flinging my personal information out there
b) because somewhere ... sometime ... a line has to be drawn in the sand of what you can and cannot know about me without my permission
c) malware explosions (ok I don't have this cause I am locked down ... but average joe just clicks away)
d) maybe one errant search explodes into 5 hundred "like products of the same errant nature"
e) Mobile - sigh - waiting for 5 thousand ads to load when all you want to see is xyz is just maddening
f) I am PAYING ... PAYING ... PAYING ... left and right for the apparent "privilege" of using the internet ... I pay the ISP(s), I pay the taxes, I pay the bandwidth, I pay the rental charges, I pay the equipment charges, I pay the gov't charges and the "make up a name for it" fees ...

At the end of the day a marketing company would like to continue to reach into my pocket ... but hey marketing company there is only so much pocket to go around
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2

Re: snoopertise

said by cabana:

I don't care to have my information sold nine ways to Sunday ... just so you can throw unwanted crap my way... for so many reasons.

You seem to be missing the point of targeted marketing. Targeting market sectors (can be individualized with technology and the Internet) is about finding a specific problem and then offering a specific solution for that problem. Target marketing is not about "throwing unwanted crap" your way. That is wasteful and often ineffective.
Expand your moderator at work

n2jtx

join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY

Forget About It

Run AdBlock and Ghostery and you are already doing a pretty good job of blocking tracking. Add "Private" mode to the mix and it is even better.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.

MooJohn

join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Windstream

2 recommendations

Asking won't work

Simply asking a company to stop tracking obviously won't do the trick. That will be as effective as the Do Not Call list. The only thing left is active blocking via the already-mentioned browser extensions. If the marketers think they have a right or an obligation to force ads on us then it is our job to prevent that attempt. Giving the ads content based on what we searched recently or what site we viewed does not make the intrusion any more palatable.
--
John M - Cranky network guy

newworld

@sbc.com

caps

I don't care if every site becomes a pay site as long as the data I don't want is not sent to my browser and counted against my monthly download cap. Since they are bytes that I am paying to recieve, I should be the only one making the determination of which bytes I will get.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Targeted Ad's

I don't mind targeted ad's. I just purchased 10 pairs of pants online now I am getting email from belt and suspender companies. I just happen to need both. I like this.
--
I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's.
- Mark Twain in Eruption

Insight6

join:2012-08-25

1 recommendation

DNT is a farce--a scam.

One can check the box to not be tracked. Their likelihood of success in not being tracked is the same as the success would be if they checked the box, "I want to get laid."