Don't Get Too Excited About The FCC's Comcast 'Investigation' Words are but wind... by Karl Bode 03:12PM Wednesday Jan 09 2008 Tipped by No_Strings  Both consumer advocates and phone industry sock puppets have urged the FCC to dig into Comcast's forging of TCP packets to throttle upstream p2p applications. One of our regular forum users was the first to discover the practice earlier this year, after which an Associated Press report created an Internet firestorm. Comcast found itself in serious PR hot water after groups like the EFF subsequently showed how the practice sometimes interferes with other Internet traffic. Among the groups urging the FCC to act were the Free Press, the Consumer Federation of America, the Consumers Union (publishers of Consumer Reports), the Media Access Project, Public Knowledge and professors at Yale, Harvard and Stanford law schools. In a complaint (pdf) filed by Free Press, the group asked the FCC to penalize Comcast to the tune of $195,000 per subscriber. Yeah that's not happening, but yesterday FCC chief Kevin Martin told attendees at CES that the agency will at least take a look at Comcast's practices. "Sure, we're going to investigate and make sure that no consumer is going to be blocked," Martin told conference goers. "The question is going to arise: Are they reasonable network practices? When they have reasonable network practices, they should disclose those and make those public."Martin's choice of words is telling. If you're a network neutrality supporter eager to see someone clamp down on application throttling, you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for the FCC. The policy statement (pdf) that guides the FCC's hand in matters of network neutrality is not law, and is intentionally vague enough to allow providers to get away with anything short of an outright traffic blockade. ISP lawyers can effectively argue that all forms of application throttling constitute "reasonable network management." In Comcast's dealings with the press, they've been very aware of these legal semantics, stating that the company is simply delaying traffic, not blocking it -- and for the betterment of the Comcast network. The interesting part of Martin's statement is his insistence that such practices be made public. Comcast has been painfully mysterious about the particulars of their traffic shaping practices, refusing to disclose even which hardware their using (though we know it's Sandvine gear). They also boot high-consumption customers if they cross invisible monthly download limits the carrier does not share with customers. In our conversations with the company, they don't even acknowledge such caps exist. In contrast, cable operator Cox also employs monthly caps and throttles upstream p2p traffic, but has been rather forthcoming about the practices. In a broadband industry where ISPs are throttling BitTorrent traffic, imposing mystery caps and now contemplating piracy filters, it would be beneficial for consumers if all of these practices were clearly outlined, allowing them to make intelligent service comparisons. But it's highly unlikely that Kevin Martin will be the man to force ISPs to come clean. While it's true that Martin has gained a reputation for being an enemy of the cable industry, it's unlikely that he'll take any serious action against Comcast. Martin already knows that Comcast's actions don't violate his agency's own, intentionally wimpy guidelines. It's also unlikely he'll pass new regulation forcing carriers to reveal network practices, because it would upset his friends at AT&T and Verizon. The end result? The FCC will likely issue a small fine and a tersely worded press release that suggests that Comcast come clean about their traffic shaping -- and include at least some specifics somewhere in the company's jungle of fine print. digg:tech_news/Don_t_Get_Too_Excited_About_The_FCC_s_Comcast_Investigation
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 FFHPremium join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ kudos:5 | Comcast responds »news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080109/tc_···fcc_dc_1
Comcast Corp said on Wednesday that it would cooperate with an investigation by U.S. regulators into how it manages some Internet traffic on its network, but again denied it had interfered with file-sharing services.
"Comcast does not, has not, and will not block any Web sites or online applications, including peer-to-peer services," David Cohen, a Comcast executive vice president, said in a statement on Wednesday.
Comcast said it used bandwidth management technology on its network that can slow delivery of files, but that it would not block them outright.
"We believe our practices are in accordance with the FCC's policy statement on the Internet, where the Commission clearly recognized that reasonable network management is necessary for the good of all customers," Cohen said. And Comcast walks right thru the FCC loophole. Nothing will change. -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page | |
|  |  Camelot OnePremium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Greenwood, IN kudos:2 | Re: Comcast responds Can you even call it a delay, when it never gets passed? | |
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1 recommendation | said by FFH:And Comcast walks right thru the FCC loophole. Nothing will change. Nor should it. They (ISP's) aren't in business to provide some sort of perceived 'God given right' to full on 24/7 internet access. Especially to something as downright egregious as bittorrent. | |
|  |  |  Camelot OnePremium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Greenwood, IN kudos:2 | Re: Comcast responds said by JasonD :said by FFH:And Comcast walks right thru the FCC loophole. Nothing will change. Nor should it. They (ISP's) aren't in business to provide some sort of perceived 'God given right' to full on 24/7 internet access. Especially to something as downright egregious as bittorrent. If I am paying for the connection, and choose to use it to download perfectly legal content via bit torrent, where exactly is Comcast's right to block that option? And I say block, because thats exactly what their "delay" does.
Keep in mind, this is all just an outsider's opinion. I would never use Comcrap, even if dial up was the only alternative. Anyone who hates their customers as much as they do has no place in my home. -- Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
|  |  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 | Re: Comcast responds said by Camelot One:If I am paying for the connection, and choose to use it to download perfectly legal content via bit torrent, where exactly is Comcast's right to block that option? And I say block, because thats exactly what their "delay" does. They don't block your ability, as a Comcast customer, to download. They limit the number of upload connections their users able to establish to minimize upstream channel congestion. | |
|  |  |  |  ditka_bPremium join:2001-10-05 Barrington, IL | Yes unfortunately it is A-OK for a few users that use Bittorent legally to be blocked. Just like it's OK to Search every person at the airport to stop the few from ruining the trip for others. | |
|  |  |  |  |  lesopp join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL 1 edit | Re: Comcast responds It would be interesting to see bittorrent modify their application so that the packets appear to be VoIP, using the same UDP ports as RTP with the DiffSrvices field set to express forwarding. | |
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 |  |  | | said by JasonD :said by FFH:And Comcast walks right thru the FCC loophole. Nothing will change. Nor should it. They (ISP's) aren't in business to provide some sort of perceived 'God given right' to full on 24/7 internet access. Especially to something as downright egregious as bittorrent. They're not the Internet police or the government. And what people use on their connection is none of their business. Bittorrent is not an illegal piece of software to use. | |
|  |  |  |  QumahlinNever Enough TimePremium,MVM join:2001-10-05 united state | Re: Comcast responds While I agree with you that its not an illegal piece of software, your statement of "what people use on their connection is none of their busines" Please remember YOU do not own your connection. It is not "yours". You essentially are leasing the connection so what you do on it most definitely is their business to an extent and if you choose to find a ISP that agrees with your way of thinking...good luck. Because I promise you even if the ISP isn't openly blocking anything they are still paying close attention to the traffic their customers are sending and receiving.
Don't get me wrong I disagree with them doing this, and orignally their sandvine implementation was not used for this and was actually used to help customers maintain speeds, prioritize certain traffic such as XBL, VOIP, etc. | |
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 |  |  | | If I pay for internet access, and nowhere in the contract does it say it will block any kind of internet traffic (remember, Sandvine causes connections to be dropped, not slowed), and the ISP does, in fact block traffic, then they're not abiding by the agreement between them and me, and something needs to be done to show them that they can't do whatever they want, legal or not, and get off scot-free. | |
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 |  CabalPremium join:2007-01-21 Reviews:
·Suddenlink
| The loophole that allows for network engineers to do their jobs by managing their network? I'm amazed at the short-sightedness of people advocating a flat, unmanaged, unQoS'd Internet. -- Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru? | |
|  |  |  Camelot OnePremium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Greenwood, IN kudos:2 | Re: Comcast responds said by Cabal:The loophole that allows for network engineers to do their jobs by managing their network? I'm amazed at the short-sightedness of people advocating a flat, unmanaged, unQoS'd Internet. I am not one of them. I would have no problem with Comcast CAPPING the bandwidth for certain protocols, it's this total block that I have objection to. (upstream or down, a block is a block, and a delay is a block, if the "delayed" traffic never gets to it's desination) -- Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
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 Camelot OnePremium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Greenwood, IN kudos:2 | Or it just won't end. I see the more likely case being that the "investigation" just never ends, thus there is no conclusion, an no finger pointing. All the while Martin gets to claim the FCC is "doing something about it". -- Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
|  |  | | Re: Or it just won't end. Probably more likely, yes. | |
|  |  patcat88 join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY kudos:1 | said by Camelot One:I see the more likely case being that the "investigation" just never ends, thus there is no conclusion, an no finger pointing. All the while Martin gets to claim the FCC is "doing something about it". Yep, it will be investigated forever, until a new chairman comes and kills it as being part of the previous administration. But by this time (many years from now), nothing mainstream will care. When people want blood, you tell them you are doing an investigation, until they cool down and forget, you can drag it out as long as you want. | |
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 | | Comcast Investigation One thing I noticed for certain. In this photo of Martin, which I assume is more recent, he looks a whole lot older. Perhaps the slapping around he got from Congress woke him up to the fact that his actions are not immune from scrutiny. | |
|  SlickEnWPremium join:2003-01-21 Seattle, WA | Valid Points but this'll bring the heat to CC :) You guys make some valid arguments, but I figure with the amount of press this BS has gotten and how its overstepping the lines of most big brotherism to a rather hefty degree (Forging packets is dangerous ) , add the fact that some of the larger groups have teamed up to put this to light should yeild some interesting results. | |
|  |  QumahlinNever Enough TimePremium,MVM join:2001-10-05 united state 2 edits | Re: Valid Points but this'll bring the heat to CC :) Your correct, it will yield less invasive ways to restrict your traffic and will yield small disclaimers added to the ToS. Anyone who thinks the customer is going to come out on top of this one is betting on a long shot.
Add in the fact that the majority of complainers are people who are pissed because they can't seed copyrighted material and up their torrent ratios to the private sites they belong too.
For those who want to argue with my above statement, please be aware for every customer seeding a "legal" torrent there are 20+ customers seeding a "illegal" torrent. Why this matters is because you'll find most businesses follow the 80/20 rule when it comes to setting up processes/procedures
Also realize I am on the same side as you, and I seed quite a few "legal" and "illegal" torrents 24/7...but I don't fool myself into thinking what i'm doing is 100% legit like most others like to | |
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 |  joakoPremium join:2000-09-07 /dev/null kudos:6 | Legal BS So if I forge your signature I guess I can say I am only delaying you finding out about a fraudulent transaction so thats totally alright? I don't think the issue is that Comcast is doing as they wish with their network, they are forging harmful packets on a network. They are pretending to be an IP address that they really aren't sending fake RST packets. -- Am Heimcomputer sitz' ich hier, und programmier' die Zukunft mir | |
|  SeleniaI love DebianPremium join:2006-09-22 Fort Smith, AR kudos:2 | Slow Down? wtf I don't use Comcast and haven't been in a Comcast area in years. All I can say is torrents seeded by only Comcast users are hardly worth downloading, unless it's one of a kind. The first connection from a Comcast user(encryption forced) usually takes a few minutes to drop. Then it's actively terminated accross several reconnects of the torrent client. The it'll reconnect successfully several times, but boot you within a few seconds of transfer. You then have to repeat the cycle for hopefully a few more MB. if that. I am on Roadrunner and do not experience this even with users of Rogers or Shaw in Canada and certainly not with cleaner ISPs in the US. I don't even use them but can tell you that Comcast does all but block torrents. It doesn't often matter which city the Comcast users are in, either. So we know it's not a routing issue. | |
|  HallPremium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Germantown, OH kudos:2 | News or opinion ? Geez Karl, are you writing short little news "blurbs" or is the front page of DSLR becoming your commentary or forum outlet ? | |
|  |  en102Canadian, eh? join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: News or opinion ? DSLReports = Karl's Blog ? -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
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 | | SCREWED What Comcast is doing should not come as a surprise to anybody. All of you in support of this company that hates its customers and is determined to screw everyone, you're about to get what you deserve. I'm glad that there are people that are determined to bring this to the forefront and eventually this company will be brought to justice. Only a matter of time. | |
|  |  axus join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: SCREWED Justice? The only person in the justice business that seems interested in consumer protection is Eliot Spitzer, and he got to where he wanted (governor) doing that. Apply pressure with your wallet (don't get Comcast) and on your senator and congressman, don't expect the DoJ to do anything for you. | |
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 | | Exessive While I'm all for remedies against this type of activity by Comcast, I do think the asked for
quote: $195,000 per subscriber
is excessive.  | |
|  linicxCaveat EmptorPremium join:2002-12-03 United State Reviews:
·TracFone Wireless
·CenturyLink
| I agree. As someone who has had some interaction with FCC I agree wholeheartedly that it is effectively neutered like the dog who sniffs, mounts the bitch, but can't perform. Thanks to good ol' boy lawyers and pols, Lady Justice isn't only blind she;s gagged, too. -- Mac: No windows, No gates, Apple inside | |
|  cabetclPremium join:2003-01-08 Millington, NJ | Drive them crazy We just need several online games that also use p2p protocol. Then the games stop working due filtering so now there is a legitimate reason to complain. | |
|  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | Re: Drive them crazy Get right on that, would you, and let us know how well that really works. 
Bandwidth management is bandwidth management. | |
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 u3912974 join:2007-07-31 San Francisco, CA | angry pirates i like comcast | |
|  |  PashuneCaps stifle innovationPremium join:2006-04-14 Gautier, MS Reviews:
·Vonage
·CableOne
| Re: angry pirates Psst...not all of us are pirates. Think of the ones who download completely legal content such as Linux distros or unlicensed anime...
I'm not a Comcast user, and I love it. 3 mbit DSL does everything I need it to. -- I have achieved 3 meg , fastpath sync on a 15,700 ft. 26 ga copper line. =] | |
|  |  | | Not everyone are pirates there matey. | |
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 | | Oh, I think we'll see a fine . . . . I think the FCC will go further than you expect on the notice issue. It is very easy to slap Comcast hard for outright lying while still refusing to address the underlying real question. Further, Martin and others opposed to prophylactic regulation have a vested interest in showing that the FCC's policy works and is enough to protect consumers.
So I suggest we'll see a fine, and a hefty one at that, but only on the the theory that outright lying to customers can never be reasonable (while leaving the door open to a refusal to confirm or deny or a refusal to divulge details). | |
|  | | Comcast is not "forging" anything. The packets they're sending are commands -- in accordance with the standards -- telling the computers which are engaged in a violation of the networks terms of service to stop.
Using BitTorrent on Comcast's network is a breach of contract, and for good reason. It's taking Comcast's bandwidth for the benefit of third parties. Comcast is 100% within its right to stop the traffic that is in violation. | |
|  |  | | Re: Comcast is not "forging" anything. So, you're telling me that I send an e-mail to family that is NOT on Comcast's network, they have a right to block it because it's not benefiting Comcast??
I have to say bullshit to that arguement. If that's the case, there would be no traffic on the connections because nothing that is done on the internet directly benefits Comcast, besides looking at their pathedic webpage and paying the bill online.
So that is a piss-poor excuse and rational for supporting them. Go, collect your Comcast paycheck, and don't spend it all in one place. | |
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 | | This is the first battle in the war To me it's pretty simple. Comcast and the other cable and phone companies want to block you from BOTH consuming bandwidth (costs them direct expenses) AND using their Internet connection to get services and content that you would otherwise pay them for (e.g. video, phone) (costs them lost revenue). Follow the money!
Of course they start with Bittorrent. The FUD that they spew about BT is mostly a red herring to divert people from the real issue. The prize that they are after is to deny customers the ability to get VoIP or video from anybody but themselves. BT is just a mosquito that they want to swat, and a tool to get a legal framework in place to reach the prize. Voice and video are the cash cow that they desperately want to hang on to.
BT users provide just enough legitimate network management concern on the ISP's part that they hope to use this to establish a legal precedent for denying service to customers. One they get the legal framework established to deny services to the customer FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE ISP'S PROFIT (not just the health of the network!), then they are home free.
Want to use Skype, Vonage, ekegia, or any other VoIP provider? Sorry, against the TOS; buy our VoIP product instead. We just can't manage our network if you bandwidth pigs use a competing service. We are innocent. We just happen to make a lot more money when we deny you these services.
Want to view Youtube or Youporn or CNN online? Sorry, against our TOS; buy our bundle of 99 crap channels to get the 3 that you are interested in. We just can't manage our network if you evil pirate bandwidth pigs use a competing service. We are innocent. In fact, we are the good guys, saving the world from evil pirates. We just happen to make a lot more money when we deny you these services.
I have been in the CATV industry for a while. They view the requirement to provide service to their customers as an unavoidable speed bump on the way to cashing their checks. ANYTHING that they can do to minimize the cost and maximize the revenue stream is fair game in their view. They see the end of the monopoly and they are terrified.
This contempt for their customers' desires will be their undoing over time, now that they are getting more and more competition. But it takes a generation to flush the existing tier of managers who have this monopoly mindset. By then FiOS and Google TV and Skype and others will have eaten way into their profitability. They have no answer except to go into panic mode and try to block services, in order to buy a few more days of monopoly before the implosion. Oh well! | |
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