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EFF: NSA Analysts Confirm AT&T Snoop Rooms
Group Continues Battle Against Warrantless Surveillance
by Karl Bode 04:28PM Tuesday Jul 10 2012 Tipped by fatness See Profile
The Electronic Freedom Foundation (EFF) recently announced that they've gained new support for their legal campaign against the government's warrantless domestic surveillance program: three former NSA analysts. According to the EFF, the three analysts are going on the record to confirm the agency, with the help of phone companies like AT&T and Verizon, are intercepting nearly all United States communications in real time in violation of the law. The claims support earlier claims by an AT&T whistleblower that the telco was giving the NSA wholesale access to Internet and voice traffic via specially designed monitoring rooms. From the EFF:
quote:
"For years, government lawyers have been arguing that our case is too secret for the courts to consider, despite the mounting confirmation of widespread mass illegal surveillance of ordinary people," said EFF Legal Director Cindy Cohn. "Now we have three former NSA officials confirming the basic facts. Neither the Constitution nor federal law allow the government to collect massive amounts of communications and data of innocent Americans and fish around in it in case it might find something interesting. This kind of power is too easily abused. We're extremely pleased that more whistleblowers have come forward to help end this massive spying program."
It continues to be amusing that the press continues to get often hysterical about smaller scale privacy invasions (CarrierIQ being the latest), but the largest law-breaking domestic surveillance program ever conceived doesn't seems to bore the national technology press.

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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·KCH Cable

Incomplete

Even if there was a "day in court," it's probably too late to pull the plug.

First, there was this:
»news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9982898-7.html
Obama signed a 'compromise' bill after saying he wouldn't support immunity for telco involvement. Oops.

Second,
There's this, concerning the datacenter being built in Utah:
»www.washingtontimes.com/news/201···pying-c/

nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY

Re: Incomplete

The rhetoric is just over the top hyperbolic on this one. Break out the tin foil hats kids! The gubmint is spying on you!

I'm much more concerned about the completely unregulated, with no oversight, collection of our data by private companies.

Noah Vail
Son made my Avatar
Premium
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Lorton, VA
kudos:3
Reviews:
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1 recommendation

Re: Incomplete

said by nothing00:

The rhetoric is just over the top hyperbolic on this one. Break out the tin foil hats kids! The gubmint is spying on you!

The reasons why governments harvest data about their citizens are well documented.

Can you cite reasons why our gov agencies wouldn't collect data that they want?

said by nothing00:

I'm much more concerned about the completely unregulated, with no oversight, collection of our data by private companies.

Which suits some folks in Congress just fine.
And big corporate data likes people hysterical over gov intrusion.

Then there's the super-super-secret third option for folks who'd prefer to not get played by either side of the gov/corp duopoly.
They place the liberty of citizens above either gov or corps.
--
Campaign contributions influence laws through a process called bribery.
Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
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·Embarq Now Centu..
·Comcast
·CenturyLink

These weasels are preparing their minority report!

When the news reporters state that the police took action against a perpetrator, was through good police work. In some cases the perpetrator was an innocent that had their broadband connection hacked. I always wonder if many of the SWAT Team break in's shown on TV, on innocent citizens, are because the spies are sloppy and do not double check to be certain that they are breaking into the right house. Remember the NSA will claim that the spying on citizens is to protect the children and to prevent victimless crimes. When will the government require cameras be installed in bedrooms to make certain that spouses do sex according to local laws.

coldmoon
Premium
join:2002-02-04
Broadway, NC
Reviews:
·Windstream

Re: These weasels are preparing their minority report!

said by Mr Matt:

When the news reporters state that the police took action against a perpetrator, was through good police work. In some cases the perpetrator was an innocent that had their broadband connection hacked. I always wonder if many of the SWAT Team break in's shown on TV, on innocent citizens, are because the spies are sloppy and do not double check to be certain that they are breaking into the right house. Remember the NSA will claim that the spying on citizens is to protect the children and to prevent victimless crimes. When will the government require cameras be installed in bedrooms to make certain that spouses do sex according to local laws.

SHHHHHHH! Don't give them any new ideas...
--
Returnil - 21st Century body armor for your PC
en103

join:2011-05-02

Re: These weasels are preparing their minority report!

let's see... Cable boxes with cameras, TV's with cameras/microphones for Skype, every laptop with a camera/microphone, every cell phone with a camera/microphone.... All remote/software accessible - who says big brother can't get what they want.

workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Get Buttle!

His name is Tuttle?

Whatever. Close Enough.

Dave
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

1 recommendation

Oh. My.

All righty then.

Back to the real world.... unfortunately I can't get that 30 seconds back.
ISurfTooMuch

join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL
said by Mr Matt:

When will the government require cameras be installed in bedrooms to make certain that spouses do sex according to local laws.

When? About six years ago.

»www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200···as_x.htm
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
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Austin, TX
kudos:5

OK got to regulate here

snippets from the report above

warrantless
in violation of the law
widespread mass illegal surveillance
massive spying program
law-breaking domestic surveillance

wow, all that in 3 paragraphs.

Interestingly, none of this is factual. It's all someone's opinion, and the courts and Congress who, gee, actually get to DECIDE whether something's legal or illegal, disagree. Guess who wins that argument?

intercepting nearly all US communications
mass surveillance of ordinary people
collect massive amounts of data and communications of innocent Americans

wow again. How does anyone actually know what is happening? The details are of course classified. This is simply extrapolation to an unjustified conclusion.

And, of course, no mention of WHY one would want to take measures for national security. Ummm... maybe... there's a lot of people, and nations, who want to kill as many of those "innocent Americans" as possible, and cripple the USA, by any means necessary? Oh, yeah, forgot about that one.

Last point.. if you're going to throw random observations into the mix, and extrapolate from them to your desired conclusions, and pre-emptively declare them true... well how about this one? President Obama, after he was sworn in, supported pretty much every domestic national security measure started by the Bush Administration. Hmmmm... why did that happen? Maybe he saw what was actually going on and realized it was fine, useful, and critical to national security. Eric Holder has not peeped about any of this, you notice.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Re: OK got to regulate here

The courts decide when a lawsuit is brought by citizen's against the government. Congress decides after citizens vote them into office asking for them to decide. "It's OK because the government says it's OK...though it's a secret so we can assume it's OK even if the government doesn't say it's OK" is not any kind of argument. Not even if Obama says so. Or his lackey, Mr. In-Contempt-of-Congress...

KodiacZiller
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73368
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What the hell are you talking about? Former NSA analysts who had *access* to these programs are coming forward and saying it is absolutely true.

Every bit of data that flows across American pipes is being sucked in by the NSA and stored.
--
Getting people to stop using windows is more or less the same as trying to get people to stop smoking tobacco products. They dont want to change; they are happy with slowly dying inside. -- munky99999
asdfdfdfdfdf
Premium
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Well the evidence is mounting that there is large scale domestic data harvesting.

According to the nsa's own website they have 2 key missions:

"NSA's SIGINT mission is specifically limited to gathering information about international terrorists and foreign powers, organizations, or persons. "

"Information Assurance involves preventing unauthorized access to sensitive or classified national security information and systems. The purpose of the Information Assurance mission is to keep others from stealing or tampering with our national security systems and information."

It seems increasingly clear that there is enormous mission creep here and the crossing of a very dangerous border that was put into place to protect american citizens from indiscriminate surveillance. The government should not have secret rooms where all our communications are funneled through for their monitoring. This should be non-negotiable.

It isn't really clear whether this is technically legal, whether it has simply never been properly tested in the courts, nor the extent to which the congress is even aware of what is actually going on. It's pretty clear to me that it is well outside the boundary of the spirit and intent of the law. These organizations are a secret government within a government and it isn't a sure bet that our elected officials are even in the know about what they are doing. They may also not want to be in the know.

Is there ever going to be a point at which "for our own protection" isn't a justification for everything?

airwavz
Always the green wire

join:2011-09-11
Mount Juliet, TN
kudos:1

3 recommendations

said by MyDogHsFleas:

"the courts and Congress who, gee, actually get to DECIDE whether something's legal or illegal, disagree."

No, you seem to have forgotten that line in the constitution about We the people. The courts and congress don't get to decide anything - they are to represent the views and choices of the people who elected / allowed them to be appointed to their position. That is all. Period. According to the very doctrine this country was founded upon, WE ARE the government - not some second-class species to be constantly observed and monitored like fish in a tank!

said by MyDogHsFleas:

"Ummm... maybe... there's a lot of people, and nations, who want to kill as many of those "innocent Americans" as possible, and cripple the USA, by any means necessary? Oh, yeah, forgot about that one."

No, I did not forget about 'that one'. There have always been people, countries, and nations who want to eliminate and/or overtake the US, as well as any other nation that disagrees with their world view. When we all lived in caves and carried big sticks there were saber-tooth tigers and scary dinosaurs trying to eat us as well, but we didn't have 'the government' to save our ass from 'the bogeyman' back then. Our distant ancestors got on with Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - or at least a decent meal - without worrying about cyber-bullying/political correctness/the red menace/evil terrorists, et al.

Any TRUE conservative would agree with one of our country's great founding fathers:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Ben Franklin

I support our government following the constitution to the very letter - beyond that give me back my freedoms, and I'll take my chances with the "menaces" of life!

How does anyone know what is actually happening? Because at least 5 (that we know of) REAL Americans have had the guts to come forward and DETAIL the blatant illegal abuses being perpetrated by the NSA and other agencies in total disregard of our constitution!!

pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA

Re: OK got to regulate here

said by airwavz:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Ben Franklin

I support our government following the constitution to the very letter - beyond that give me back my freedoms, and I'll take my chances with the "menaces" of life!

How does anyone know what is actually happening? Because at least 5 (that we know of) REAL Americans have had the guts to come forward and DETAIL the blatant illegal abuses being perpetrated by the NSA and other agencies in total disregard of our constitution!!

And that is the best comment I've read on this thread so far. You nailed it! Every day you hear of a new agency, new executive order, etc., that runs afoul of the Constitution. The sad thing is that few people actually care.
--
General class working toward Extra. Love the digital modes!

Rambo76098

join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
I'm just gonna leave this here. Wouldn't want mydoghsfleas to think terrorists are any good at what they do.

"Americans Are as Likely to Be Killed by Their Own Furniture as by Terrorism"
»www.theatlantic.com/internationa···/258156/

"According to the report, the number of U.S. citizens who died in terrorist attacks increased by two between 2010 and 2011; overall, a comparable number of Americans are crushed to death by their televisions or furniture each year. This is not to diminish the real--albeit shrinking--threat of terrorism, or to minimize the loss and suffering of the 13,000 killed and over 45,000 injured around the world. For Americans, however, it should emphasize that an irrational fear of terrorism is both unwarranted and a poor basis for public policy decisions."
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Re: OK got to regulate here

said by Rambo76098:

I'm just gonna leave this here. Wouldn't want mydoghsfleas to think terrorists are any good at what they do.

"Americans Are as Likely to Be Killed by Their Own Furniture as by Terrorism"
»www.theatlantic.com/internationa···/258156/ and over 45,000 injured around the world. For Americans, however, it should emphasize that an irrational fear of terrorism is both unwarranted and a poor basis for public policy decisions."

This is like those stories that read, "Crime rate down, but more people in prison! Why?"

ummmm....... let me think.

Maybe..... our counter terrorism measures are working?

As opposed to, terrorism is not a real threat?

Another point: household accidents are manifestly different from terrorism attacks. It's like comparing auto accidents to plane crashes. One is frequent but only affects a few people at a time. One is very infrequent but causes hundreds (or thousands or hundreds of thousands) of people to die all at once and has huge economic and political implications.

You address these two risks in very different ways.

Or are you saying that the NSA should be using its webcam-overtaking application to check whether people have safe furniture in their houses?

Rambo76098

join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

Re: OK got to regulate here

I'm pointing out that for Americans, statistically, death by terrorism is as likely as death by your own furniture.

And I'm going to have to disagree with you that we're being effective, as we kill more children in Pakistan in the war on terror, than Americans die in actual terrorism.

That sure makes us look like the terrorists, huh?

»www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne···ign.html
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Re: OK got to regulate here

said by Rambo76098:

I'm pointing out that for Americans, statistically, death by terrorism is as likely as death by your own furniture.

Um, duh. I actually did understand the content of your post. Was that supposed to be a response?

And I'm going to have to disagree with you that we're being effective, as we kill more children in Pakistan in the war on terror, than Americans die in actual terrorism.

That sure makes us look like the terrorists, huh?

»www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne···ign.html

Without responding to your point, what's that got to do with the topic here, which is me asking why do you think that we haven't had any terrorism deaths in the USA since 9/11? Is it really because "terrorism isn't a big problem", which somehow is concluded based on the risks of household accidents?

You somehow want to change the meaning of the word "effective" here. Don't know how we made that leap.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
said by airwavz:

said by MyDogHsFleas:

"the courts and Congress who, gee, actually get to DECIDE whether something's legal or illegal, disagree."

No, you seem to have forgotten that line in the constitution about We the people. The courts and congress don't get to decide anything - they are to represent the views and choices of the people who elected / allowed them to be appointed to their position. That is all. Period. According to the very doctrine this country was founded upon, WE ARE the government - not some second-class species to be constantly observed and monitored like fish in a tank!

Manifestly untrue. The Constitution does not give you, personally, or any group of random people, the power to pass laws or to pass judgement on the Constitutionality of laws. We are not a town-hall-style democracy where you get to vote on individual laws. That's Congress' job. We are a representative democracy where you vote for elected officials as your representatives in the Executive and Legislative branches, and then they make appointments to the Judicial branch.

So, if you want to change things, your power is your vote. Go do it.

I can't believe I have to actually say this. How did you miss these basic facts about our country?

[bquote
said by MyDogHsFleas:

"Ummm... maybe... there's a lot of people, and nations, who want to kill as many of those "innocent Americans" as possible, and cripple the USA, by any means necessary? Oh, yeah, forgot about that one."

No, I did not forget about 'that one'. There have always been people, countries, and nations who want to eliminate and/or overtake the US, as well as any other nation that disagrees with their world view. When we all lived in caves and carried big sticks there were saber-tooth tigers and scary dinosaurs trying to eat us as well, but we didn't have 'the government' to save our ass from 'the bogeyman' back then. Our distant ancestors got on with Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - or at least a decent meal - without worrying about cyber-bullying/political correctness/the red menace/evil terrorists, et al.

Mmmmm kay then. You go right ahead and defend yourself against sleeper cells. Don't need no gummint to do that for us. Good luck with that.

You really don't think large scale state sponsored terrorism within our borders is a new thing?



Any TRUE conservative would agree with one of our country's great founding fathers:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Ben Franklin

I support our government following the constitution to the very letter - beyond that give me back my freedoms, and I'll take my chances with the "menaces" of life!

Well first off I am not a "true conservative" by any means, but nice try at pigeonholing me.

And, frankly, I am sick and tired of this stupid Ben Franklin quote that gets thrown out here every 100 milliseconds. It is essentially content-free and open to any interpretation you might want to put on it.

Do you really think Ben Franklin was against spying to thwart threats against his country? Try googling it.

How does anyone know what is actually happening? Because at least 5 (that we know of) REAL Americans have had the guts to come forward and DETAIL the blatant illegal abuses being perpetrated by the NSA and other agencies in total disregard of our constitution!!

What did they detail? And how do you leap to the conclusion that "massive illegal spying" is happening? Communications have always been accessed for national security reasons, even before there were computers or the Internet. There's nothing new there. What I am objecting to is the leap to conclusion that everyone here has that it's "illegal" and that "massive spying on Americans" is going on. we even have a thread where people are imagining that their webcams in their bedrooms are being tapped to monitor their sexual behavior. My point is, this is all speculation as to what is being done with the data.

Look, there's a set of people who think that the Internet is somehow magic and should be free of all scrutiny by countries and authorities to enforce anything we have historically enforced -- copyright law, crime, fraud, sexual exploitation of minors, terrorism, slander/libel, etc. etc. etc. Get over it. The Internet is not magic.

airwavz
Always the green wire

join:2011-09-11
Mount Juliet, TN
kudos:1

2 edits

1 recommendation

Re: OK got to regulate here

said by MyDogHsFleas:

We are a representative democracy where you vote for elected officials as your representatives in the Executive and Legislative branches, and then they make appointments to the Judicial branch.

Your words.....Exactly!

Now WHAT 'BASIC FACTS' DID I MISS?!?

I can't believe I actually have to say this. How can you so completely misinterpret the constitution?

And I have been voting since I was 18 - problem is, a lot of the electorate doesn't do any research on the candidates other than believing the BS spewed from their TV sets, which tends to negate my thoughtful, prepared, and researched choices in which candidates I vote for.

But then again, I could be wrong; after all, I'm not privileged to live in the state with the record of most corporate legal victories, and home to "W"... (oh my, did I say that out loud?)

PS: In regards to "are you saying that the NSA should be using its webcam-overtaking application to check whether people have safe furniture in their houses?"

I'm saying the NSA should be eliminated, the federal government should go back to overseeing the military, and MAYBE the interstate highway system, and the rest of that tax-sucking bureaucracy should be dismantled!

PSS: And a couple more points -

said by MyDogHsFleas:

Communications have always been accessed for national security reasons, even before there were computers or the Internet. There's nothing new there. What I am objecting to is the leap to conclusion that everyone here has that it's "illegal" and that "massive spying on Americans" is going on.

No one here is leaping to conclusions - it's been admitted by Bush, Obama, the NSA, and many others that under the "authority" of new laws enacted under the guise of 'protecting us from terrorism' that this spying is being done en mass, and without warrants. Our constitution plainly states that there will be NO search, seizure, or other violation of our privacy without a warrant, granted only by review of the facts pertaining to the alleged offense.

said by MyDogHsFleas:

And, frankly, I am sick and tired of this stupid Ben Franklin quote that gets thrown out here every 100 milliseconds. It is essentially content-free and open to any interpretation you might want to put on it.

First off, how could that be open to interpretation?!? If you are willing to give up your Liberty (Freedoms granted by the Constitution of these United States of America) for some temporary safety (the illusion the government - or anyone else for that matter - can keep you out of the cross-hairs of some delusional maniac bent on destroying human life) deserves neither (because if you believe the government should protect you while you sit on your behind and watch as true heroes defend this country, you don't deserve to be a citizen of this great nation!)

And frankly, if you are so "sick and tired of this stupid Ben Franklin quote", feel free to move to a country with Sharia Law - I am sure you can support their leadership and form of government much more...
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Re: OK got to regulate here

This is getting old.

You said: "the courts and Congress don't get to decide anything" and "we are the government".

Wrong. You are a voter and you vote for your representative, who DOES get to decide everything we're talking about, under the Constitution.

Apparently they are not deciding things to your liking. Keep voting, and try to convince others to vote your way. That's how it works.

"eliminate the NSA" yeah ok. that'll go over big in the next election. That is surely about number 479 on the list of things people are riled up about. Do you see this popping up on ANY polls anywhere?

Not to mention the fact that it's a completely unrealistic fantasy.

"it's plainly and admittedly unconstitutional" you're just saying the same thing, again, that I shot down in my OP. No, it's not. Until and unless a court says so.

ben franklin quote: I say it's completely open to interpretation, and you say no it's not, then you provide your interpretation. Lose. And then you follow it up with the lamest comeback (next to invoking the Nazi/Hitler comparison) on the Internet: "If you don't like it why don't you leave the country." GMAFB.

If this is the best you got I'm out. I'm just trying to bring some reality to this thing. Apparently it's not taking with you. Hey, I tried.

Camaro
Question everything
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Westfield, MA
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said by MyDogHsFleas:

And, of course, no mention of WHY one would want to take measures for national security. Ummm... maybe... there's a lot of people, and nations, who want to kill as many of those "innocent Americans" as possible, and cripple the USA, by any means necessary? Oh, yeah, forgot about that one.

When has that ever changed ?

The 3 letter agency's screwed up because they didn't want to share intelligence, so they had the pieces back then to put together but didn't, and now they should get new tools when they screwed up big time. Last time I saw a coworker screw up they were escorted out the door.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1

1 recommendation

we should not have to give up our rights to privacy just so the government can play security theater.

However I can understand now that Fox News and the rest of mass media have effectively brainwashed the public into accepting everything short of government mandated spy cameras in our homes by using the "OMG Terrorists at every turn" excuse.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Government Rights

Obama has already declared that he has the right to kill anyone, so he seems entitled to monitor the internet, have first dibs at your daughter's virginity, etc. etc.
mythology
Premium
join:2002-10-16
Seneca, SC

1 recommendation

Federal Government is the real threat.

Americans dont realize it yet but we are no longer a free people and the ruling political class does not acknowledge the constitution unless it benefits them. The War on Terror is now the War on Americans. Revolution or complete tyranny is coming.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Re: Federal Government is the real threat.

Thanks, Alex Jones. You are the Rush Limbaugh of the conspiracy theory crowd.

airwavz
Always the green wire

join:2011-09-11
Mount Juliet, TN
kudos:1

Re: Federal Government is the real threat.

When you can no longer avoid logic and truth, there's always THE LAMEST comeback on the internet, the "You are the Rush Limbaugh of the *insert target group du jour here* crowd. What's that wheezing sound? Oh yea, it's a last desperate gasp.

Oh, by the way - "it's plainly and admittedly unconstitutional" is not a quote from ANY of my posts. So are we now just making stuff up? I wouldn't fault you for trying - it's worked well for the last 2 administrations!

We - the majority of people here and all across America - reject your delusional (intentional?) BS, and substitute actual reality....
(Now could someone turn off the oven? I believe this one's done to a crisp.)
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5

Re: Federal Government is the real threat.

ok I admit:

a) the Alex Jones reference was snarky

b) I put quote marks around a paraphrase of what you said, should have said it was a paraphrase of this paragraph: (and a fair one I would assert)

quote:
No one here is leaping to conclusions - it's been admitted by Bush, Obama, the NSA, and many others that under the "authority" of new laws enacted under the guise of 'protecting us from terrorism' that this spying is being done en mass, and without warrants. Our constitution plainly states that there will be NO search, seizure, or other violation of our privacy without a warrant, granted only by review of the facts pertaining to the alleged offense.

My bad.
rdmiller

join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA

1 recommendation

Free Beer Foundation

We need an organization that can translate EFF "announcements" into the decaf version. There's probably some useful information buried under all the hype.

franknalco

join:2005-01-27
Littleton, CO

A Failure to Amend

Our Constitution is woefully inadaquate at protecting American's privacy in the 21st Century. Our inability to update the document has us falling far behind other nations in guaranteeing rights of its citizens. In fact, most other nations that are updating their constitutions no longer look to ours as a model, instead more closely copying those of Canada and the EU declaration of rights. Thomas Jefferson, in a 1789 letter to James Madison, wrote that every constitution “naturally expires at the end of 19 years” because “the earth belongs always to the living generation.” Our Constitution has recently been sarcastically compared to Windows 3.1, and their doesn't seem to be any impetus to make it applicable to todays world. We have judicial and executive acts that leave us less and less protected from big government and big business, both of whom are more than happy to plow through loopholes and on the fringes. I am going to go out on a limb here and predict that even if the NSA is doing what is said is being done, it is upheld.

••••
old_wiz_60

join:2005-06-03
Bedford, MA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

Waste of time..

The NSA and the other spooks (aka the U.S. Gestapo) will continue to do whatever they feel is necessary to snoop on people. They care not one whit for the Constitution or for U.S. laws - they totally believe the end justifies the means.

The spooks simply believe they are above the law anyway.

onyxmicro

join:2007-06-06
Roanoke, VA

By the time you realize you're living in a police state,

it's too la.........