EFF Sues Gov. For Docs Proving Illegal Surveillance Secret Court Rules Government Violated 2008 FISA Laws The last lawsuit that could have held somebody accountable for the government's total disregard for the law when it comes to domestic spying was just shot down, but the EFF remains hard at work battling what they argue is an intelligence and law enforcement community that's clearly driven off the rails. The EFF says they're now suing the government in the hopes of forcing the release of documents the EFF claims show that Uncle Sam unlawfully surveilled Americans’ e-mails and telephone calls (with the full cooperation of companies like AT&T and Verizon): ...Wyden is trying to say that the NSA has found a way to collect a ton of information on Americans and sift through it in a way that he considers to be illegal. And, in at least one secret decision by a secret court, judges agree with him. On July 26, the EFF sought documents under a Freedom of Information Act claim to support Wyden’s statements, including classified FISA court opinions, reports and any documents connected to congressional briefings about the topic. The government did not forward any documents, so the EFF sued in federal court in the District of Columbia. Senator Wyden's attempt to get the NSA to fess up to repeatedly breaking the law have so far been high comedy; the agency has recently gone so far to pretend they even have the ability to spy on American electronic communications. The NSA also recently tried to argue that it would violate citizen privacy if they divulged they'd been violating citizen privacy.
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  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | Who cares Yeah I know I should, but I don't. At least not specifically about this case. The government spies on us. Well, spying implies that it's secret so it's not really a secret when everyone knows about it or at least likely suspects it. They all but flat out admit to it. There's nothing that they are going to do to stop. And there's nothing that anyone can honestly do about it.
Even if the EFF wins the lawsuit (it won't) and the judge says release the documents (he/she won't), the Executive Branch will just claim executive privilege, or classify it double secret top secret, or have the FISA court make the judicial order disappear, or just "lose" the documents in question. Or Congress will just pass a retroactive law effectively legalizing it as they have done previously.
Or, even if the government wants to comply, provide a complete dump of information in hard copy format and let the EFF find the needle in the haystack (Ever see The Pentagon War where Colonel Burton gets all the information he asked for...and then some). Let the EFF find the email or executive order or two inside a dozen semi loads of copier paper boxes... | |
|  |  coldmoonPremium
join:2002-02-04
Broadway, NC
 ·Windstream
| Re: Who cares said by cdru:Yeah I know I should, but I don't. At least not specifically about this case. The government spies on us. Well, spying implies that it's secret so it's not really a secret when everyone knows about it or at least likely suspects it. They all but flat out admit to it. There's nothing that they are going to do to stop. And there's nothing that anyone can honestly do about it.
Even if the EFF wins the lawsuit (it won't) and the judge says release the documents (he/she won't), the Executive Branch will just claim executive privilege, or classify it double secret top secret, or have the FISA court make the judicial order disappear, or just "lose" the documents in question. Or Congress will just pass a retroactive law effectively legalizing it as they have done previously.
Or, even if the government wants to comply, provide a complete dump of information in hard copy format and let the EFF find the needle in the haystack (Ever see The Pentagon War where Colonel Burton gets all the information he asked for...and then some). Let the EFF find the email or executive order or two inside a dozen semi loads of copier paper boxes...
The three letter agencies would be well served by NOT pursuing this type of behavior and are sacrificing their own safe harbors under the law by continuing to poke an angry hornet's nest without their bee keeper's suit. There are legitimate and essential reasons for these agencies to exist, but openly flaunting the law because they can only leads to general distrust and contempt for what they are doing; inviting attack rather than serving their primary responsibilities to the American people.
When someone or something becomes too big for their britches, it becomes more and more likely for them to get a wake up call in some form or another which may have wider implications than simple embarrassment...
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| | | cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | Re: Who cares said by coldmoon:The three letter agencies would be well served by NOT pursuing this type of behavior and are sacrificing their own safe harbors under the law by continuing to poke an angry hornet's nest without their bee keeper's suit. There are legitimate and essential reasons for these agencies to exist, but openly flaunting the law because they can only leads to general distrust and contempt for what they are doing; inviting attack rather than serving their primary responsibilities to the American people.
When someone or something becomes too big for their britches, it becomes more and more likely for them to get a wake up call in some form or another which may have wider implications than simple embarrassment...
Not that I don't disagree with you, but I'm a realist. Nothing is going to happen. Nothing ever happens. The CIA has always done what they want, legalities never really been questioned. Same with the NSA. The FBI has been distrusted since Hover. At best (for the people), the TLA gets their hands slapped and told not to do it again and then they go off and do it again. At worst (again for the people), nothing happens which is really what is going to happen here.
The culture at any of the TLA is NOT going to change as the result of any lawsuit. I'll guarantee it. | |
| | | | | | Re: Who cares I'm much much more concerned about private companies "surveilling" us because we have to use their products to engage in society. (email, credit cards, web logging, cell carriers, EZ-Pass, etc) These companies don't have any restrictions on what they can do with your data and turn it over to anyone trying to make a buck off it. Oh, and sue them? Not likely... You waived that right.
At least the government agencies have legal restrictions. And they also have priorities. You and I are not their priority. | |
| | | | |  NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:9
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: Who cares said by nothing00:At least the government agencies have legal restrictions. And they also have priorities. You and I are not their priority.
You will become their priority when the neighbor you pissed off by squirting his cat with your garden hose as it tried to use your rose garden as its toilet tells the authorities you are planning to bomb the local airport terminal.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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|  celeritypcFor Lucky Best Wash, Use Mr. SparklePremium
join:2004-05-15
Caldwell, NJ | I've said it before, I'll say it again: if the government is wasting its time listening to my phone conversations or reading my email, they have waaaaay too much free time on their hands.
I would hazard to guess that accounts for most of us.  | |
| | | cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | Re: Who cares said by celeritypc:I've said it before, I'll say it again: if the government is wasting its time listening to my phone conversations or reading my email, they have waaaaay too much free time on their hands.
I would hazard to guess that accounts for most of us.
Unfortunately they are not "listening". Some computer is listening and along with all of it's brothers and sister computers, listen to any and every communication that they can. | |
| | |  KilroyPremium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Ann Arbor, MI | said by celeritypc:I've said it before, I'll say it again: if the government is wasting its time listening to my phone conversations or reading my email, they have waaaaay too much free time on their hands. Yes, but at the same time they shouldn't be wasting the time and money to do it. It isn't that I do anything wrong, and if I do they need to get the warrant to prove it, not just pull it out of the pile.
One day this will all come home to roost when the people get fed up. It is happening all over the world and is just a matter of time before it happens here.
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| KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | All the government has to do to make the general population not care about spying is simply state that its to protect the children from pedophiles and terrorists and they have instantly gained wide approval from their fox news viewers.
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| |  LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | said by cdru:Yeah I know I should, but I don't. At least not specifically about this case. The government spies on us. Well, spying implies that it's secret so it's not really a secret when everyone knows about it or at least likely suspects it. They all but flat out admit to it. There's nothing that they are going to do to stop. And there's nothing that anyone can honestly do about it.
Even if the EFF wins the lawsuit (it won't) and the judge says release the documents (he/she won't), the Executive Branch will just claim executive privilege, or classify it double secret top secret, or have the FISA court make the judicial order disappear, or just "lose" the documents in question. Or Congress will just pass a retroactive law effectively legalizing it as they have done previously.
Or, even if the government wants to comply, provide a complete dump of information in hard copy format and let the EFF find the needle in the haystack (Ever see The Pentagon War where Colonel Burton gets all the information he asked for...and then some). Let the EFF find the email or executive order or two inside a dozen semi loads of copier paper boxes...
+1 Not me.
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|
 camaro92Question everythingPremium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
 ·Comcast
| Spying is needed To a point, when private industry is getting involved because of a piece of paper says so then where are the pro business people screaming about the government sticking its nose where it shouldn't belong ?
I could care less about the semantics of this topic either you are on one side of the fence or the other because partisanship is non existent in our country anymore. | |
| | | Echelon If you can use it to communicate they have it monitored.
Its called echelon.
Read up on it you may get that warm and fuzzy feeling after you understand what it does. | |
| | | | Re: Echelon said by shawn808 :If you can use it to communicate they have it monitored.
Its called echelon.
Read up on it you may get that warm and fuzzy feeling after you understand what it does.
Echelon is old. It is no longer really applicable in today's world where everything is sent over fiber. Echelon was about eavesdropping on satellite communications, which used to be the preferred method for international calls. Life was simple in the 70's and 80's, since satellite comms were so easy to intercept and NSA didn't need the help of the telcos to achieve it. There was also no Internet, thus making their task simple. Today that's not the case, they need the help of the telcos to spy on the fiber lines.
This is why NSA tapped AT&T's backbone and have similar taps at Verizon and other Tier-1 providers (it's also known they have taps on the undersea cables). That's why Bush wanted retroactive immunity for the telcos (and Obama vowed to fight it while campaigning but ended up agreeing with the policy once he became president).
That's why it's funny to hear Keith Alexander claim they don't have the technical ability to spy on everyone, when it is common knowledge they do indeed have such an ability. Now whether they actually read aunt Millie's e-mail is a different story, but to claim they simply "can't" even if they wanted to is a blatant lie.
But NSA doing domestic spying isn't really new. There were cases back in the day where they got caught spying on U.S. citizens. Senator Strom Thurmond, for instance, had his phone tapped by them. The U.S. spied on British politicians for Thatcher and the Brits spied on Americans for the U.S. to avoid 4th amendment issues. Each country did spying for the other. (Remember, Echelon was a joint project between the U.S., Canada, Britain and Australia. Each nation had access).
The only people who watch out for us are the Senate and House intelligence oversight committees. The problem is they aren't on the inside day to day and can only go by what NSA tells them. So really there is no oversight and this is why everyone has to take his/her own privacy into his/her own hands. Strong encryption is one option.
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Getting people to stop using windows is more or less the same as trying to get people to stop smoking tobacco products. They dont want to change; they are happy with slowly dying inside. -- munky99999 | |
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| | Spying If you got nothing to hide, what do you have to worry about?
/sarcasm | |
| iknowPremium
join:2012-03-25 | don't vote mainstream anymore not voting for democrat or republican would fix this. vote for an independant. | |
|  ARGONAUTgot android?Premium
join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN
kudos:1 | Freedom isn't free..Bla Bla Bla American's have forgotten why Freedom and Liberty are important.  | |
| | | Unreasonable search and seizure Go EFF! They will probably never win, but I am rooting for them! | |
| | |  Stop and think !!
Do you really want a bunch of government agents knowing every detail of your life? What are they allow to do with the information? Who has access? Imagine going to the DMV to get a driver's license and being denied because you once emailed somebody information about how to avoid a parking ticket! Or ( thanks to Obamacare) Being denied medical treatment because you had a phone call with someone where you voiced discontent with the current administration in Washington.
Email's are private communication on a privately owned network. There is an expectation of privacy. Same with phone calls. They made are on a privately owned network.
If the citizens of this country do not take a stand against continued government intrusion, the government will continue to intrude. Next there will be mandatory listening devices installed in our homes... | |
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| FOIA exemption for classified information »www.sec.gov/foia/nfoia.htm
Would seem to stop this lawsuit in its tracks.
Reading the suit filed by the EFF, they don't even address this point.
They are not stupid, so I can only conclude this is a nuisance lawsuit designed to garner publicity.
And it looks like they got it. Welcome to the spin zone, people. | |
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