dslreports logo
 story category
EFF Wages War On Fine Print
Launches additional resources to track TOS, AUPs
Back in June, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) launched their terms of service tracker, which keeps an eye on company TOS for any changes that might be of interest to consumers. At launch the tracker didn't track any broadband ISPs, something the EFF told us they'd correct. They have, and now track 56 companies, including Comcast, Verizon, AT&T, Time Warner Cable, Earthlink, T-Mobile and Sprint. The company has now announced that they've launched a new blog specifically dedicated to tracking company abuse of their customers through mouse print. The new resource tracks ongoing litigation and developments regarding AUP and TOS changes, and will provide white papers aimed at giving the average Internet user "a general background on many of the legal issues that surround Terms of Service agreements."
view:
topics flat nest 
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

STOP!

Remember Ronnie said eliminate all existing regulation and enact no new regulations, let citizens pound sand as Corporations stuck it to American Citizens. Then Bush let corporations stick it up your tush. Congratulations to the EFF, at least one organization is looking out for American Citizens. We need new laws with teeth to put the greedy pigs on a short leash.

Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium Member
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX

Doctor Four

Premium Member

Terms of service tracker link broken

It leads to a line with the urchin tracker javascript if clicked on from the news article page, or a 404 from the Front Page.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Why Is This Bad?

As long as contract terms are fully disclosed, even with fine print, and the company is adhering to said contract, then what exactly is the EFF's complaint?

If the customer doesn't bother to read the fine print, why is that anyone else's fault but the customer's?

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

1 recommendation

karlmarx

Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

I challenge you to read the 'fine print' of ANY cellular phone contract. You have to be a lawyer to understand it. What the EFF wants to do is make it so there is NO FINE PRINT. Period. If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans). The terms should be short, and to the point. I guarantee you, if most people understood what they were signing, a LOT of them would say 'screw it, it's a bad deal'. Fine print is how they make a BAD DEAL look good.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by karlmarx:

I challenge you to read the 'fine print' of ANY cellular phone contract.
I read the fine print of everything I sign, whether it is a lease, mortgage contract, car purchase agreement, cell phone contract or whatever, every time.
said by karlmarx:

You have to be a lawyer to understand it.
So just because you can't do it means that we have to ruin things for everyone else? I've never had a problem looking up the meanings of legal terms online and I am no lawyer.
said by karlmarx:

What the EFF wants to do is make it so there is NO FINE PRINT. Period.
You can go to any service provider's website and view a copy of a potential contract with no fine print. You can even use your browser settings to jack up the font size to whatever you like.
said by karlmarx:

If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans).
So you finally switched to the GOP? Nice.

aSic
application specific
Premium Member
join:2001-05-17
Wakulla, FL

aSic

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by pnh102:
said by karlmarx:

If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans).
So you finally switched to the GOP? Nice.
*rimshot*

Nice zing.

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue to pnh102

Premium Member

to pnh102
said by pnh102:

said by karlmarx:

I challenge you to read the 'fine print' of ANY cellular phone contract.
I read the fine print of everything I sign, whether it is a lease, mortgage contract, car purchase agreement, cell phone contract or whatever, every time.
said by karlmarx:

You have to be a lawyer to understand it.
So just because you can't do it means that we have to ruin things for everyone else? I've never had a problem looking up the meanings of legal terms online and I am no lawyer.
said by karlmarx:

What the EFF wants to do is make it so there is NO FINE PRINT. Period.
You can go to any service provider's website and view a copy of a potential contract with no fine print. You can even use your browser settings to jack up the font size to whatever you like.
said by karlmarx:

If you buy something, the rules should be simple and easy enough for a 9th grader to understand (well, a 4th grader if you want to include republicans).
So you finally switched to the GOP? Nice.
How do you look something up when you're there, away from the computer?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by Gbcue:

How do you look something up when you're there, away from the computer?
The best way is to never sign something on the spot. If it is a cell phone contract, those can be read at home before you sign up. As for a mortgage, I was able to read the paperwork before closing and prepare my list of questions. The same goes with a lease. For the car loan, the only thing I was worried about was being scammed into one of those "you own it but you really don't" type of deals... and if the dealer is desperate enough to close a deal with you, they will let you read the contract.

If you have a phone with a data plan and a browser, that also helps.

Bill Neilson
Premium Member
join:2009-07-08
Alexandria, VA

Bill Neilson to pnh102

Premium Member

to pnh102
said by pnh102 See ProfileI read the fine print of everything I sign, whether it is a lease, mortgage contract, car purchase agreement, cell phone contract or whatever, every time.
[/BQUOTE :


I would be willing to bet that you have not read the fine print of everything you have signed

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by Bill Neilson:

would be willing to bet that you have not read the fine print of everything you have signed
And you'd lose.

I don't see why this is considered a bad thing. Any contract that involves you paying money for something and which has the potential to really screw you over if you aren't careful really should be read and understood by you before you sign it.

Bill Neilson
Premium Member
join:2009-07-08
Alexandria, VA

Bill Neilson

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

I doubt it. It makes your argument stronger online but nobody reads every single line of every single product they buy. Some are almost 10-12 pages long of small line-by-line words.

I am sure you won't admit otherwise but I doubt I am wrong.

Not mocking you as I don't either

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by Bill Neilson:

I doubt it.
And you're more than welcome to do that. I'll continue reading contracts.

If it helps to convince you, I do not sign up for many subscription-based services simply because I do not like the types of terms in some of these contracts.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to Bill Neilson

Premium Member

to Bill Neilson
Ten to twelve pages is nothing. If I'm entering into a contract that make me financially liable for something, I do read everything. Ask the closing agent that I used to close on my last house. I spent close to two hours reading/signing everything. The sad thing is that the closers said that they've never had anyone read the documents. What??? Why would you not read everything if you're getting ready to agree to pay more than $1 million dollars over the next 30 years?

FWIW, I actually read the license agreements on software that I install on my computer too, but that's a different discussion.
jjeffeory
jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN

jjeffeory

Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

Good for you. I do the same thing with contracts, but not the EULAs. Bad me, I know...
jjeffeory

jjeffeory to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
I doubt you have enough time to keep up with all the monthly changes that are happening. Also, I've read contracts where they refer to something in some other location. You go to that, it refers you to some other place that you can not fine, etc... It's a racket to hide the "icky" parts.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by jjeffeory:

I doubt you have enough time to keep up with all the monthly changes that are happening.
Funny you mention that. The only bills where I have that problem are the water + sewer and electric bills, neither of which has a contract attached to it. As for cable and cell phone bills, which are the only 2 services I have which are contract-based, I've never experienced a charge or rate change that wasn't covered somewhere in the contract or terms of service.
said by jjeffeory:

Also, I've read contracts where they refer to something in some other location. You go to that, it refers you to some other place that you can not fine, etc... It's a racket to hide the "icky" parts.
And again, if you experience this problem, and you do not like the terms, then do not sign up for the service. Simple as that.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

DataRiker

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

Even bottom feeding lawyers admit fine print is usually just a bogus attempt at "jibber jabber".

How could you possible understand that?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by DataRiker:

Even bottom feeding lawyers admit fine print is usually just a bogus attempt at "jibber jabber".

How could you possible understand that?
Google is my friend.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

DataRiker

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

So you don't see the stupidity in trying to understand something that is, by the creators admission, absurd?

Fortunately, the rest of us do.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by DataRiker:

So you don't see the stupidity in trying to understand something that is, by the creators admission, absurd?

Fortunately, the rest of us do.
The creators say this? Where? Just because some shady lawyers you know make this claim does not mean the lawyers who wrote these contracts make the same claim.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

DataRiker

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

Well, I saw this in 2 instances. The first was a Harvard law scholar on an unrelated documentary (mortgage crisis), and the second was from a lawyer friend.

Either way your presumption that google will substitute years and years of legal experience needed to decode these things is wrong. In some cases the authors motives are to get litigated ( did I ever mention lawyers are ....well nevermind)

Think about why that might be.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by DataRiker:

Well, I saw this in 2 instances. The first was a Harvard law scholar on an unrelated documentary (mortgage crisis), and the second was from a lawyer friend.
Funny you mention the mortgage crisis. Talk about a situation which could have been avoided entirely had the people who signed their contracts actually bothered to read what they were signing before committing to it.

That just validates my argument even more.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

1 edit

DataRiker

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

Your assumption that you have read every type of mortgage contract is astounding.

Even more astounding is your assertion that you could have understood, even when a Harvard law professor can't, the contractual language of the modern mortgage.

You have proved nothing but your own ignorance.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by DataRiker:

Even more astounding is your assertion that you could have understood, even when a Harvard law professor can't, the contractual language of the modern mortgage.
Sorry, but that says more about your friend than it does about me.

I had zero problems reading and understanding, in its entirety, my mortgage contract when I went to closing. I had my questions, I went over them with lawyers at closing, looked up some other things I did not know, and my house has yet to be foreclosed upon.

And to be fair, a standard mortgage contract for a primary residence is NOT that complicated either. If someone from Harvard cannot understand it, that says more about that person than the vast majority of people who sign and abide by these contracts every day.

DataRiker
Premium Member
join:2002-05-19
00000

DataRiker

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

Your contract does not equal everyone's contract. You do not have the scope of mind to comprehend that.

Nor do you have the ability to comprehend predatory contracts, which are the norm these days.

You should not have to blame the victims. The law should protect people, not hurt them.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by DataRiker:

Nor do you have the ability to comprehend predatory contracts, which are the norm these days.
Really? Where is your proof? From what I've heard 91% of mortgages are still current.
said by DataRiker:

You should not have to blame the victims. The law should protect people, not hurt them.
Sure I can. If the terms were fully disclosed and the borrowers did not bother to read or understand what they were signing, then why is it the lender's fault?
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
The single biggest issue is that they are so one sided and can be changed at any given time by the corporations.

Sure you agree to it at this point in time, but then all of a sudden after you have become "dependent" or accustomed to the product they go and throw a wrinkle in there hoping you will miss it OR simply will not mind so much because you have become comfortable with their product/service and fear change OR times have changed and you really have no good viable option anyway and they know that.

This can be and should be simply rectified. Regulations should be enacted that companies CANNOT change an agreement on a user until either the term is up or until the customer leaves and comes back. These companies want to have us agree to a 2 year plan, then we are on THAT plan for 2 years. If they and their legal department missed a screwing when drawing up that plan, then I guess they have to wait 2 years to rectify it and stick it to us.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by Skippy25:

The single biggest issue is that they are so one sided and can be changed at any given time by the corporations.
So clearly that provision is not hidden by the fine print. Again, what is the problem?
said by Skippy25:

Sure you agree to it at this point in time, but then all of a sudden after you have become "dependent" or accustomed to the product they go and throw a wrinkle in there hoping you will miss it OR simply will not mind so much because you have become comfortable with their product/service and fear change OR times have changed and you really have no good viable option anyway and they know that.
So in other words, people allow themselves to be screwed. Whose fault is that? And what difference would it make if these terms were posted in 72 point Courier New instead of 4 point Arial?
said by Skippy25:

This can be and should be simply rectified. Regulations should be enacted that companies CANNOT change an agreement on a user until either the term is up or until the customer leaves and comes back. These companies want to have us agree to a 2 year plan, then we are on THAT plan for 2 years.
If you are talking about cell providers, then most contracts stipulate that the company making a change to the contract allows the customer an out at no charge.

Perhaps the EFF should refocus its efforts on the people who sign contracts without reading or understanding the terms. Maybe there are a lot of people who would like to know more about what their contract say and the EFF could be a huge help for such people.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

Shouldn't I be able to change the fine print anytime to fit my needs as well and if they dont like it they can cancel the agreement without me assessing an early termination fee?

Or how about I get to add fine print that says payment is best effort and at my sole discretion OR if they don't like something and want to dispute it we will both tell my mom our stories and she will decide who is in the right and it is binding?

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

said by Skippy25:

Shouldn't I be able to change the fine print anytime to fit my needs as well and if they dont like it they can cancel the agreement without me assessing an early termination fee?
If they agree to it then sure. If they don't, too bad. That's all part of contract law. If you do not like that the wireless carrier doesn't care for your terms, well that's the art of negotiation, when you have no leverage, they won't care who you are or what you want.

But in the grand scheme of things, cell phone contracts seem to work just fine for most people except for the vocal minority that thinks that agreed-upon contract terms should be thrown out simply because they do not like them anymore.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to Skippy25

Premium Member

to Skippy25
I don't have much pity for people who can't/won't read contracts before signing them, but I will agree with this point. A contract is a contract and should be binding for both parties.
said by Skippy25:

Regulations should be enacted that companies CANNOT change an agreement on a user until either the term is up
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25

Member

Re: Why Is This Bad?

And I would agree with you 100% as this was the entire point of my posting.

A contract is a contract and any stipulations to change the contract should either be left out or allowed both ways.

pistachionut
join:2008-11-09
Waverly, WV

pistachionut to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
I believe we fully understand you read everything before applying your John Hancock and that's great, but the simple truth is that most don't. Also the TOS contracts are often intentionally obscure and hard to understand, one because people who actually want to read it give up, and two, because for a lot of people they don't know what the heck they're reading and therefore DON'T know what to ask.

Anything that assists the consumer in understanding what the heck they're signing/agreeing to is a bonus in my eyes, and I cant understand your vehement support of how the system currently works. As it stands, it is broken, and severely favors the provider while penalizing the consumer. You can throw more flawed logic at this if you want, but that's where it stands.

•••
jjeffeory
jjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN

jjeffeory to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
It's a full time job just keeping track of the fine print for most people if they don't want to get screwed. Gotta read the fine print for everything. I'd prefer just having a 1 page TOS with NO "fine" print for these types of services. The average consumer shouldn't need to try and keep track of 40 or 50 of these and their changes monthly.

cameronsfx
join:2009-01-08
Panama City, FL

1 recommendation

cameronsfx to pnh102

Member

to pnh102
said by pnh102:

As long as contract terms are fully disclosed, even with fine print, and the company is adhering to said contract, then what exactly is the EFF's complaint?

If the customer doesn't bother to read the fine print, why is that anyone else's fault but the customer's?
How does the EFF get money? They never win anything.

DrStrange
Technically feasible
Premium Member
join:2001-07-23
Bristol, CT

DrStrange

Premium Member

Here's a working link to TOS tracker

»www.tosback.org/timeline.php
33358088 (banned)
join:2008-09-23

33358088 (banned)

Member

go eff

i guess the small print is whats costing us all more and getitng us less
i guess its not the people running htese cmpanies into the ground cause they know that they can after all get a $$$ handout
HECK can i have some $$$ for a failed company