Euro Carriers Whine About Programmable SIMs Like things just as (expensive and long-term contracted) as they are Friday Nov 19 2010 15:39 EDT Last month reports surfaced indicating Apple was working on a programmable SIM card that would allow consumers to buy a phone online or at the Apple Store -- with all activation via Apple's App Store -- bypassing European carriers entirely. The problem, as we noted then, that this was only happening in Europe -- the political and financial power of AT&T and Verizon never allowing such disruption here in the States. Now it turns out Apple's plan may not be happening in Europe, either. MuniWireless directs our attention to the fact that European carriers are are whining about the shift: quote: Some of Europe's leading mobile operators are warning that they could take punitive action against Apple if it introduces a technological innovation on its iPhone. The operators are privately saying they could refuse to subsidise the iPhone if Apple inserts an embedded subscriber identity module, or Sim card. The operators are accusing Apple of trying to gain control of their relationship with their mobile customers with the new Sim.
Of course claiming they'll stop subsidizing is a bluff, given that if they did stop subsidizing, consumers would no longer have the incentive to enter into long-term contracts with ETFs, and carriers would be forced into more intense competition with retailers on phone prices. All of this could potentially be good for consumers, but not so good for carriers, who as with any disruption to the current wireless ecosystem (be it Google Voice, Mobile VoIP, push IM, open platforms) are simply afraid of being relegated to dumb pipes. Update: Ars Technica directs our attention to the fact that this isn't just an Apple shift: the GSM Association is forming a task force to develop a standardized programmable SIM module expected to be used in devices launching in 2012. |
tiger72SexaT duorP Premium Member join:2001-03-28 Saint Louis, MO |
tiger72
Premium Member
2010-Nov-19 3:47 pm
Karl - are you kidding me?SIM cards put the control in CONSUMERS' hands. You buy a sim card from whatever company you want. You put it in YOUR phone. That's how unsubsidized phones work, and have worked for, oh 2 decades.
If Apple gets its way, the control goes away from consumers into APPLE's hands. Instead of buying a SIM card for, say, T-Mobile and jailbreaking your iPhone. Apple would require ALL activations to go through them. That means, instead of being able to use hacked iPhones on T-Mobile, or selling US iPhones on Ebay in Europe for cheaper than Apple sells them in Europe, all gates are secured by Apple.
This takes fanboiism to a new height. Net neutrality and consumer rights be damned, eh? Or do you really not see this as what it is: a clear ploy by Apple to ensure exclusivity restrictions and profits in other markets? | |
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Re: Karl - are you kidding me?I am not a fanboi but this makes Apple trying to pass it's tech as WonderBar!
I want to put my OWN sim card in. One when I am in France (Orange) and one when back in the states (ATT).
Just one more nail in getting the (ShutupWoz) Droid World phone... | |
| | wifi4milezBig Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace join:2004-08-07 New York, NY
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to tiger72
said by tiger72:SIM cards put the control in CONSUMERS' hands. You buy a sim card from whatever company you want. You put it in YOUR phone. That's how unsubsidized phones work, and have worked for, oh 2 decades. I know, I was just as shocked as you when I read Karls article. I really get a kick out of the flip flopping hypocrisy of BBR. They are adamantly against corporations attempting to assert control over the market; except of course when they are for it..... | |
| | coz @charter.com |
coz to tiger72
Anon
2010-Nov-19 11:04 pm
to tiger72
From the ARS Technica article:
"Furthermore, it could make it easier for users to switch carriers or push for shorter-term contracts"
How is that anti-consumer?
Furthermore, since many carriers steadfastly refuse to check an IEMI blacklist of stolen devices, a programmable SIM could permit Apple to make a lost or stolen handset inoperable without involving the carriers. The carriers don't care if a handset is stolen, they just want you to sign-up.
Apple is most certainly looking for additional profits. I think they're also tired of the support element that is required to be received from the carriers.
By the way, there are no consumer rights for wireless service. Your contract pretty much takes them all away, and if you're pre-paid your rights are limited to no longer using the service. | |
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Re: Karl - are you kidding me?said by coz :Furthermore, since many carriers steadfastly refuse to check an IEMI blacklist of stolen devices, a programmable SIM could permit Apple to make a lost or stolen handset inoperable without involving the carriers. And it would make the phone inoperable with that carrier without involving the carrier. SIM cards contain the account specific encryption key on them. In general you can't extract the keys. The chip is a one way system. Keys go in, never to come out again. If the carrier doesn't give the customer the encryption keys, any programmable SIM card is impossible. If the carrier doesn't support the embedded SIM card standard, no phone with it will be supported. End of story. | |
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S_engineer Premium Member join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL |
Dumb Pipes...There's not enough money for carriers to be happy as a dumb pipe, nor will there ever be. | |
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Re: Dumb Pipes...You are correct. I just wish it was all Sim Cards and you paid for Unlocked phones allowing you move carrier of Choice and have networks with a universal MHZ spectrum. Yes I know it can't work that easy. | |
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to S_engineer
said by S_engineer:There's not enough money for carriers to be happy as a dumb pipe, nor will there ever be. The thing is that AT&T is pretty much close to being a dumb pipe in the US with the iPhone as can be. | |
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Re: Dumb Pipes...Agree. Considering the fact MediaNet can't compete with App Store or iTunes.
And when you use blackberry, a partial control belongs to RIM. | |
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Subsidizing vs. LoanIn Europe buying an "unsubsidized" phone is an economically rational decision. When you buy it at full price, you get a huge discount in wireless service from the carrier far exceeding the cost of the phone. Those "subsidies" are nothing more than a loan with huge interest rates.
This is why no one in the US buys phones unsubsidized. They're forced to still take the inflated monthly prices even if they bring their own, essentially giving up $400 to the carrier for nothing.
And hearing corporate apologists carp about Americans willingly buying into long term wireless contracts triggers my stupidity alarms. They have no other choice. It's the rational economic decision in America, since carriers are able to engage in illegal extortion. Or they use T-Mobile as an example, whose BYOP program is nowhere near what European carriers are forced to abide by. | |
| | 34764170 (banned) join:2007-09-06 Etobicoke, ON |
34764170 (banned)
Member
2010-Nov-19 7:11 pm
Re: Subsidizing vs. Loansaid by sonicmerlin:This is why no one in the US buys phones unsubsidized. They're forced to still take the inflated monthly prices even if they bring their own, essentially giving up $400 to the carrier for nothing.
And hearing corporate apologists carp about Americans willingly buying into long term wireless contracts triggers my stupidity alarms. They have no other choice. It's the rational economic decision in America, since carriers are able to engage in illegal extortion. Or they use T-Mobile as an example, whose BYOP program is nowhere near what European carriers are forced to abide by. There are definitely people buying unsubsidized phones in North America. I have zero interest in entering into contracts for a cell phone especially if its just for the so called "free" phone which isn't free. | |
| | Desdinova Premium Member join:2003-01-26 Gaithersburg, MD |
to sonicmerlin
"This is why no one in the US buys phones unsubsidized."
I bought a Razr two years ago. Since then I've owned a Nokia N95, an N97 and I just bought an N8, all unsubsidized. The phones I want aren't offered at a reduced rate, so I'm okay with paying a higher price for gear that's non-marked, non-branded that I can do with as I please non-contractually. | |
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skuv
Anon
2010-Nov-20 4:58 am
Re: Subsidizing vs. Loansaid by Desdinova:"This is why no one in the US buys phones unsubsidized."
I bought a Razr two years ago. Since then I've owned a Nokia N95, an N97 and I just bought an N8, all unsubsidized. The phones I want aren't offered at a reduced rate, so I'm okay with paying a higher price for gear that's non-marked, non-branded that I can do with as I please non-contractually. When someone says "no one" does something or other, it is hyperbole, they don't literally mean that "no one" does the thing. He's using hyperbole to say that not enough people do it to make a difference in the cell phone market in the US. A normal person reading that comment would realize that is what is meant. No need for you guys to inform him that you buy unsubsidized phones. | |
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to Desdinova
Read it again! A new phone subsidy is recouped in the monthly rate. Even after the subsidy is paid off the higher monthly rate continues. BYOP and you're still paying a monthly rate elevated to pay off a subsidy. | |
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jfmezei Premium Member join:2007-01-03 Pointe-Claire, QC |
jfmezei
Premium Member
2010-Nov-19 4:09 pm
Why is Apple doing this ?Sorry, but Apple would be stupid to be doing away with the SIM card concept.
And networks wouldn't really appreciate someone's ability to reprogram a virtualised SIM card at will. (think about how hackers could impersonate other people).
If Apple has to start to think up such stupid ideas, it means that it is running out of steam and won't be innovating in the right direction from now on.
The way it is supposed to work: The phone is mine. And the SIM card is the link between my phone and the network I have chosen. Apple made a big mistake by allowing a network to dictate what features of the phone were enabled and disbaled (such as the APN configuration menu) on officially unlocked iPhones. And it appears they will now worsen the situation.
If Android based phones were available unlockedd and unassociated with any network, I doubt very much that they would disable menus after you've inserted a SIM card (which is what happens to the iPhone). | |
| | TransmasterDon't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY 1 edit |
Re: Why is Apple doing this ?This is just another reason why I will never have an iPhone, or a 3G iPad. I will say it again right now a Blackberry looks like the best choice for me. By the way you can get unlocked Android gear. I don't know anything about this outfit. I Do know Chinavasion I mentioned in other threads is a scam outfit. but anyway here is what can be had. go here: This is a 7 inch tablet expandable to 32 gigs of storage and costs 100 dollars plus shipping. For 100 bucks I can just imagine how good it's quality is. » www.focalprice.com/CE009 ··· ite.html | |
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It makes me wonder about TETHERINGis it included or sold separately on European carriers (such as Orange, T-Mobile UK, Vodafone)? | |
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USIt won't happen in the US as we only have 2 major carriers that use GSM here- T and ATT. You either can get them or you can't. With VZ and Sprint being CDMA there's no point in using this standard here as CDMA does NOT support a SIM card. Yah VZ may have world phones with SIM cards but they're not active and why would you? for them to activate it to get roaming service you should just get the phone unlocked and put in a TMO or T SIM on prepaid to get service in those areas. It's smarter than using the VZ sim. | |
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A step backwardThinking of this more, getting rid of the SIM would be a step back.
Yup, we're going back to the days where you bought the phone and then had the carrier program it, then you would be able to use it with one carrier only.
Fine for most people, kinda sucky for people who want to switch carriers when traveling and take advantage of local rates. | |
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The carriers..in the U.S. own enough Congressmen to block any attempt to do this in the here. A phone that could be bought by anyone and used on any network without long term contracts would never never happen in the U.S., regardless of technical issues of CDMA vs GSM vs anything else. Any congressman who dared to vote in favor of such a thing would see his/her campaign funds dry up at the next election and whoever runs as opponent would get lots of money as long as they promise to vote the right way. Voting against might even get you some custom fitted new shoes. | |
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