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Even The Patriot Act's Author Says NSA Has Gone Too Far
Insists They Won't Renew Act if NSA Doesn't Shape Up

Wisconsin Republican Representative Jim Sensenbrenner is about the farthest thing you can be from a civil libertarian, but as the author of one of the most draconian expansions of United States surveillance power, even Sensenbrenner this week acknowledged the law he crafted was being abused, stating that even he won't be inclined to renew the Patriot Act if the NSA doesn't clean up its act.

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Sensenbrenner was only the latest to point out the government was abusing section 215 of the act, which insists that only data "relevant to an ongoing terrorist investigation" can be collected. The NSA, as it has been made very clear, insists that everyone and everything is relevant, and they're gobbling up this data by the fistfull -- via everything from live fiber splits at AT&T head ends, to undersea cable taps.

At a hearing of the House Judiciary Committee this week, Sensenbrenner laid into Deputy Attorney General James Cole, arguing that the government was trying to have its cake and eat it too:
quote:
"You sure are (having it both ways) because you're saying have the court authorized to get the records of all the phone calls that are made to and from phones in the United States including people who have nothing to do with any kind of terrorist investigation. You gobble up all of those records and then you turn around and say well we’ll pick out maybe 300 phone numbers out of the billions of records that you have every day and you store for five years there. All the rest of this stuff is sitting in a warehouse and we found out from the IRS who knows who wants to have any kind of legal or illegal access to it. You are having it both ways."
We'll have to see how intense Sensenbrenner's opposition is after the anger over the Snowden leaks dies down. Meanwhile, at these same hearings, NSA Deputy Director Chris Inglis acknowledged the NSA collects more data than they previously admitted (shocking), stating they now collect data on users "two or three hops" away from a terror suspect -- instead of the two hops previously stated by the agency.
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CrazyFingers
join:2003-10-01
Columbia, MO

CrazyFingers

Member

Meanwhile, at the NSA Ministry of Love...

Every shred of anything Sensenbrenner said, wrote, emailed, tweeted, thought, or dreamed is being microscopically scrutinized for anything that can send him to Room 101.
It shouldn't take long.
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

ISurfTooMuch

Member

Re: Meanwhile, at the NSA Ministry of Love...

II think a more likely scenario is that he'll have an election challenge the next time he's up for re-election that will push him back into line.
criggs
join:2000-07-14
New York, NY

criggs to CrazyFingers

Member

to CrazyFingers
said by CrazyFingers:

Every shred of anything Sensenbrenner said, wrote, emailed, tweeted, thought, or dreamed is being microscopically scrutinized for anything that can send him to Room 101. It shouldn't take long.

Sorry; don't get the cultural reference. What is Room 101? Thanks.
dra6o0n
join:2011-08-15
Mississauga, ON

dra6o0n

Member

Re: Meanwhile, at the NSA Ministry of Love...

Twisting evidence and story and pushing a person to the point of locking them up for 'some reason'?
erik2250
join:2007-08-02
Etobicoke, ON

erik2250 to criggs

Member

to criggs
In the book 1984, it was where the government tortured political prisoners into accepting their beliefs.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

1 recommendation

skeechan

Premium Member

Time has come for new Guards

quote:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

elios

Member

NSA keep it up

some good might yet come of this if we can kill one of the WORST bills ever to be passed in to law

mr sean
Professional Infidel

join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia

1 recommendation

mr sean

Six degrees of separation?

"Two hops"?
"Two or three hops"?
Pretty soon it's six degrees of separation.
And then what happens when the NSA realizes we share a connection to Kevin Bacon?

The Patriot Act was bad enough, the government's abuse of it after the fact is, quite literally, without precedent and inexcusable.

Probitas
@teksavvy.com

Probitas

Anon

Re: Six degrees of separation?

I think there is plenty of evidence showing the government of the day, and in the last few decades, abuses the trust of the people. Between the wars started and other abuses of power, it's a surprise some of these people still get re-elected into office. Of course, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence suggesting elections are tampered with as well, so there you go.

What is surprising is why people can be so surprised by it. After the shock wears off, most people should be shrugging and saying to themselves, What did I expect?

mr sean
Professional Infidel

join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia

mr sean

Re: Six degrees of separation?

said by Probitas :

I think there is plenty of evidence showing the government of the day, and in the last few decades, abuses the trust of the people. Between the wars started and other abuses of power, it's a surprise some of these people still get re-elected into office.

Power is a corrupting influence.
One strength of a Democracy, in theory, is the degree to which the government is accountable for abuses or corruption. Its a messy and sometimes painfully protracted process, but the alternatives are even less attractive.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to Probitas

Premium Member

to Probitas
said by Probitas :

it's a surprise some of these people still get re-elected into office.

Humans are a lazy bunch. Until something affects them personally (sucking up Internet traffic isn't one of them for a vast majority), most are happy to trudge through life ignorant of their surrounds. Complacency is easier than taking ownership and educating oneself about the political antics our governments have become known for.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz to mr sean

MVM

to mr sean
Heck, I have a bacon number of three if you fudge the last step to count high school plays.

WHT
join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX

WHT

Member

Re: Six degrees of separation?

said by Guspaz:

Heck, I have a bacon number of three if you fudge the last step to count high school plays.

I watched Footloose ... does that make me one hop away?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot Act. Many sections of the act were needed and improved security and cooperation amongst US agencies; tightened border controls; etc.

Only 1 section of the act(215) is in dispute. And that can be rewritten to make sure the NSA has to get more oversight for intercepting data.
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus

Premium Member

Re: Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot Act.

I would say that this is simply your opinion, and is one that is not widely shared.

The biggest problem with the passage of this bill (as with most) is that so few even bothered to read it before voting. If our representatives did this, and viewed it with the level of consciousness anywhere approaching "ordinary human being" - we might actually have representatives worth a damn.

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium Member
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170

2 edits

skeechan to FFH5

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to FFH5
Yet they still couldn't catch Nadal Hassan, the Times Square bomber or two Chechen Islamists even after being told about them numerous times by the Russians.

Seems to me that the Patriot Act is a complete waste of everything.

There is nothing in the Constitution that permits government to go into a private business like a phone company and seize records of ANY KIND wholesale. The 4th Amendment is very clear on this point.

The problems go beyond this law to include a Supreme Court that seems to have lost its copy of The Constitution.
Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT

1 recommendation

Rekrul

Member

Re: Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

said by skeechan:

The problems go beyond this law to include a Supreme Court that seems to have lost its copy of The Constitution.

They know exactly where their copy of The Constitution is. It's in the same place as Obama's copy;


The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

The Antihero to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot Act.

There's nothing right with it either. And calling this abomination the "Patriot" Act is an insult to all the true patriots who died for our country.

cchhat01
Dr. Zoidberg
join:2001-05-01
Elmhurst, NY

cchhat01

Member

Re: Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

said by The Antihero:

said by FFH5:

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot Act.

There's nothing right with it either. And calling this abomination the "Patriot" Act is an insult to all the true patriots who died for our country.

Thank god someone acknowledged the fact that calling a bill "Patriot Act" has no bearing in its actual application. Any logical person looking at these two words would think the about enlisting into the armed services or some sort of public service to help further the country's governmental transparencies. The bill is a complete 180-degree turnaround from such an ideal.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

said by cchhat01:

said by The Antihero:

said by FFH5:

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot Act.

There's nothing right with it either. And calling this abomination the "Patriot" Act is an insult to all the true patriots who died for our country.

Thank god someone acknowledged the fact that calling a bill "Patriot Act" has no bearing in its actual application. Any logical person looking at these two words would think the about enlisting into the armed services or some sort of public service to help further the country's governmental transparencies. The bill is a complete 180-degree turnaround from such an ideal.

It is only an acronym. The actual bill was "Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism" which was much more accurate. Blame society and the TV networks for the trend to make acronyms for everything.

DrModem
Trust Your Doctor
Premium Member
join:2006-10-19
USA

DrModem

Premium Member

Re: Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

Yea it wasn't intentional... it was just a coincidence. Making a series of words that spell out PATRIOT happens all the time... better odds than a coinflip. I mean, look how often it happens!

sarcasm

Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium Member
join:2000-08-05
united state

Snakeoil to FFH5

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IMO, there is just 1 thing wrong with the patriot act. The fact that it exists.

But such acts are easy to pass when the people are upset and afraid after a major event like 911.

Which shows just how lightly people view their Freedom.
Security or Freedom, you can't have both.
Kamus
join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX

Kamus

Member

Re: Patriot Act OK. 1 section needs modification

said by Snakeoil:

Security or Freedom, you can't have both.

Well said. That is the price of living in a free society. There's not a whole lot you can do if some idiot decides to bring a bomb into a subway, or a demented moron from shooting up a movie theater.
But the benefits of freedom makes it more than worth it having to deal with enemies like those.

Bring it on, bitches.

M35
@wideopenwest.com

M35 to Snakeoil

Anon

to Snakeoil
said by Snakeoil:

...Security or Freedom, you can't have both.

Sure you can. Why do we spend billion and billions on the military, NSA, CIA, FBI and the rest of the spook speak agencies? All that is just waste? With a military that spends more than the next some 12 nations combine, we can't be safe? Wow, standards are low these days. We never needed the PATRIOT act, it was a grab at that time playing on the emotions of the citizens. Goes to show that the government and the citizens will dump the Constitution to have the illusion of safety, when in fact we are safe.

Jim Kirk
Premium Member
join:2005-12-09
49985

Jim Kirk to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

There is nothing wrong with the Patriot Act. Many sections of the act were needed and improved security and cooperation amongst US agencies; tightened border controls; etc.

Only 1 section of the act(215) is in dispute. And that can be rewritten to make sure the NSA has to get more oversight for intercepting data.

Hello, R.i.N.O.

jseymour
join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

1 recommendation

jseymour

Member

The Quality Of Our Elected Officials

Imagine: You give a government agency unprecedented powers and they abuse them. What a surprise.

We really need to start electing better people to represent us.

The very smart men that wrote the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights knew that governments are a threat to liberty. People like Sensenbrenner are working to defeat the protections those very smart men put in place.

Jim

CosmicDebri
Still looking for intelligent life
join:2001-09-01
Lake City, FL

CosmicDebri

Member

Re: The Quality Of Our Elected Officials

said by jseymour:

Imagine: You give a government agency unprecedented powers and they abuse them. What a surprise.

We really need to start electing better people to represent us.

The very smart men that wrote the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights knew that governments are a threat to liberty. People like Sensenbrenner are working to defeat the protections those very smart men put in place.

Jim

Sadly it doesn't matter who we vote in...... heads of NSA and the like aren't voted in. They are placed there, and stay there. They view the Presidents as renters and of no consequence, because they come and go..... other politicians are just bumps that occasionally cause irritation, but there are plenty of ways to 'handle' irritation when the back room guys want to....
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: The Quality Of Our Elected Officials

said by CosmicDebri:

heads of NSA and the like aren't voted in. They are placed there, and stay there.

You do know who the Director of the NSA is don't you? He won't stay there very long and the next person appointed for that position will be approved by Congress, like all other appointees. So yes, it does matter who you vote for...as long as you can get enough of your fellow citizens to vote similarly.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

3 hops covers just about everyone in the USA

Say there are 300 'suspects' - which may be all that are legitimate targets.

Say Suspect #1 has 100 contacts - that's hop 1
Say each person in hop 1 has 100 contacts of their own - that widens the net to 10,000 - that's hop 2
Say each person in hop 2 also has 100 contacts - now the net is 1,000,000 people - that's hop 3

300 suspects x 3 hops = 300 Million people - suspiciously close to the total population of the USA, all of whom are now 'persons of interest' in "terrorist" investigations. Take that Gestapo, Stasi, & NKVD - got you beat!!

The least the NSA could do is to make the program self-financing, by correcting grammatical & typographic errors in our e-mail for a small fee - say $10-15/person/year. Operators are standing by. All major credit cards accepted. Call now - don't worry....we're recording that call too.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: 3 hops covers just about everyone in the USA

said by MaynardKrebs:

300 suspects x 3 hops = 300 Million people - suspiciously close to the total population of the USA, all of whom are now 'persons of interest' in "terrorist" investigations.

So you understand the basics, and for analysis if the contacts end up being that dispersed then it would be discarded more likely a spammer or a cat on the keyboard, however like hunting bots, if a large enough percentage of those contacts end up at suspicious or known bad addresses then it MIGHT warrant further investigation.
this is a numeric sieve hoping to find a few flecks of real gold out of a mountain of glitter.
It is designed to be more efficient in the use of other investigational resources, something gov't agencies are usually pretty bad at.
Wilsdom
join:2009-08-06

Wilsdom

Member

Paper tiger

Like the NSA cares. Might makes right, and they have the capabilities and the backing of Obama (assuming he doesn't hold office due to their backing)

kingdome74
Let's Go Orange
Premium Member
join:2002-03-27
Syracuse, NY

kingdome74

Premium Member

Oddly enough...

... Obama escapes all blame. LOL, oh my, and we wonder, when a president is held to no account, heads an out-of-control government doing everything they accused the former administration of doing - domestic wireless wiretapping, drone surveillance, IRS and NSA over-the-top zealotry for political purposes, killing of American citizens without due process, collecting emails and phone records, and on and on. Obama is no more than a happy bystander while our constitution crashes down around our ears. Just like he sat in church for 20 years and never heard a word.
clone (banned)
join:2000-12-11
Portage, IN

clone (banned)

Member

"Terror Suspect"

NSA Deputy Director Chris Inglis acknowledged the NSA collects more data than they previously admitted (shocking), stating they now collect data on users "two or three hops" away from a terror suspect -- instead of the two hops previously stated by the agency.

Annnnddd....the definition of a terror suspect is:

»www.activistpost.com/201 ··· you.html

-Anyone angry about banker bailouts.
-Having more than 7 days worth of food on hand.
-Missing any digits/limbs
-Paying for goods/services with cash
-Keeping your text conversations private while in a public place
-Having Ron Paul stickers on your car
-Belief in "Conspiracies" (Remember kids, NSA spying was an Evil Rightwing Nutter Conspiracy Theory(tm) less than 2 months ago.)
-Owning gold/silver
-Owning firearms

This is where the real problem lies. I don't think most people have a problem with targeted spying on people who are working with REAL (Not 3-letter agency affiliated) foreign terrorists. When they are blanket-collecting EVERYONE'S data, then only "using the data" of people 2-3 hops away from anyone on the list above, they effectively have wholesale monitoring of everyone.

Sooo, all you "have nothing to hide" folks, are you sure you aren't 3 "hops" away from anyone on the list above?
The Antihero
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

The Antihero

Member

Re: "Terror Suspect"

said by clone:

-Having more than 7 days worth of food on hand.

I get paid biweekly, and I do my grocery shopping when I get paid. Since I shop for two weeks of food at a time, I guess I fall under that category.
easonin
Rock Ridge, FL
join:2008-07-08

easonin

Member

America!

F U C K Y E A H ! !

meeeeeeeeee
join:2003-07-13
Newburgh, NY

meeeeeeeeee

Member

So what are YOU doing?

Are you writing your representatives (you can find them at »whoismyrepresentative.com/ with just your zip code) and TELLING them that you will not be able to morally vote for them again unless there is a complete investigation into all the abuses and criminal acts and the perpetrators brought to justice?

If YOU are not part of the solution, YOU ARE the problem.

••••••••••

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Like rats on a sinking ship....

Now that it's out, everyone who hopes to get re-elected will start to back pedal and put distance between them and the Patriot Act.

Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

Kilroy

MVM

Everything is related

quote:
section 215 of the act, which insists that only data "relevant to an ongoing terrorist investigation" can be collected.
Easy enough, everything is related. The terrorist we are investigating is on the planet earth, so we are collecting data related to everyone who may have contact with him, breathed his air, or drank his water.

The government is just like everyone else, you give them an inch and they will take a mile.
SunnyD
join:2009-03-20
Madison, AL

SunnyD

Member

Re: Everything is related

I came here to say exactly this.

Laws are meant to be both abused and broken. Only when scrutinized by the public can that truly be acceptable.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Wisconsin Republican Representative Jim Sensenbrenner is...

....backing away from the fact that the NSA is doing EXACTLY what he asked them to do, has been briefed on it repeatedly and is ONLY "upset" NOW, because you are aware of it and might blame him.
If he wasn't fully aware of what could and was being planned and done with further billions in appropriations, he SHOULD have been.
Not being "inclined" means more like "maybe they'll forget by then".
I don't believe what the have done is illegal or totally inappropriate, but these jackasses who won't stand up for their own actions truly disgust me.
IF it is so evil congress COULD stop it now, but they won't.
b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
united state

b10010011

Member

So where did you think it would end?

Really Representative Jim Sensenbrenner?

You opened this door, capitalized on the nations fear, and even gave it a clever name so anyone who did not vote for it obviously hates America.

Now you are worried they have gone too far?

w0g
o.O
join:2001-08-30
Springfield, OR

w0g

Member

patriot act designed to take away rights of americans

The Patriot Act was designed to take away the rights of Americans, make them easier to spy on, easier to violate, easier to imprison and convict of crime. It also made it harder to imprison and convict police and government officials of crime, especially government crime done against the public. It made it so the government had near unlimited power and authority, without restriction or regulation. This bill needs to be done away with, and a new anti-government bill drafted to go after these same abuses needs to happen. I want to see an anti-government version of the Patriot Act, which criminalize government officials for abusing the public, spying unlawfully, committing crimes, and running programs in secret without the publics permission. I want it to change the focus of government, to being nothing more than a servant of society, to keep and maintain things. Police officers shouldn't be out to do anything to the public that we don't want and approve of, and they should be easily fired, dismissed, and given criminal penalties when they fall out of line. I want to decriminalize the public when it comes to engagement with police and government officials, because I think government officers are entirely responsible for their interactions with the public. when it comes to assault on police officers, or excessive use of force and battery of individuals, I think the police are entirely responsible and should be criminalized for it. it is the only deterrent out there, to make them think twice before causing harm to the public.