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screw upHow bad of a beating do you get if the FBI gives you a secure laptop and you leave it lying around somewhere for hackers to steal? | |
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| RaptorNot a Dumptruck join:2001-10-21 London, ON |
Raptor
Member
2012-Sep-5 9:36 am
Re: screw upIt wasn't physically stolen from what I read regarding the original story; data was obtained using that 0-day Java exploit last week. | |
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| morboComplete Your Transaction join:2002-01-22 00000 |
to footballdude
said by footballdude:How bad of a beating do you get if the FBI gives you a secure laptop and you leave it lying around somewhere for hackers to steal? That's the shocking part: no one will care so there will be no real beating. Look at all previous data leaks by the government and by private companies (credit card breaches). The consequences of the negligence is laughable. | |
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amungus Premium Member join:2004-11-26 America |
amungus
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 9:25 am
lot of data3TB from a laptop? I find that part hard to believe unless they mean uncompressed... Doubt they issue laptops with that kind of raw capacity. Whatever the hackers claim to have, however, is still some interesting data. Popcorn time.. | |
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| openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 9:29 am
Re: lot of dataIf the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs. | |
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| | TamaraBQuestion The Current Paradigm Premium Member join:2000-11-08 Da Bronx ·Verizon FiOS Ubiquiti NSM5 Synology RT2600ac Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)
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TamaraB
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 9:54 am
Re: lot of datasaid by openbox9:If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs. When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal. | |
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| | | sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 10:03 am
Re: lot of datasaid by TamaraB:said by openbox9:If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs. When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal. Wrong. Thievery is thievery, no matter the origin of the material. Just because you stole it doesn't make it legitimate (ie if you shop lifted, and someone broke into your car and stole that merchandise, that merchandise isn't any more legitimate then when you had it). | |
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| | | | | tshirt Premium Member join:2004-07-11 Snohomish, WA 1 edit |
tshirt
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 11:18 am
Re: lot of datasaid by TamaraB: Unless you returned it to it's owner, which is what essentially has taken place here. Really? They seem to be suggesting public release which certainly won't help the privacy of the individuals to whom the info ID's, even IF it demonstrates the validity of their claim to have hacked that data. No one likes what the FBI has done, some of it may be usefully security wise, but the secure handling of that info is a paramount duty so IF the FBI really lost it, that's a crime of it's own (aren't they now required to notify each user of its loss?) Whistleblowers are protected for reveling a problem, but not if they found the problem by criminal means outside the scope of their normal employment. something similar should apply to third parties, no matter how good their intentions (or not) the hacking itself is still a crime. | |
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| | | | | | Thaler Premium Member join:2004-02-02 Los Angeles, CA |
Thaler
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 12:11 pm
Re: lot of dataBut the privacy of the individuals was already breached. At least now people know about it. | |
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| | | | | | | tshirt Premium Member join:2004-07-11 Snohomish, WA |
tshirt
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 1:31 pm
Re: lot of data MAYBE data taken as they claim, MAYBE they got it elsewhere, and are blaming the FBI (makes a good story) MAYBE they have little or no data (it's most a story, for the PR value) But suppose it happened as they say. I would liken that to breaking into each house on a road, eventually I may find evidence of some illegal or unsavory actions in some house. reporting it is the right thing to do, but doesn't justify my break-ins.
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| | | | | | | | Cthen Premium Member join:2004-08-01 Detroit, MI |
Cthen
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 2:06 pm
Re: lot of datasaid by tshirt: I would liken that to breaking into each house on a road, eventually I may find evidence of some illegal or unsavory actions in some house. reporting it is the right thing to do, but doesn't justify my break-ins.
Actually, that has happened many times over in court. As long as the one who committed the crime was not the lawyer, the person tends to get a pardon on their actions in return for bringing vital evidence to a case. (Not every time though depending on how severe the crime was) The problem here is this haxing group going public rather than saving it as evidence. They are trying to play a public judge and jury themselves without having any legal counsel doing research into what they have. | |
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| | | | | | | | | tshirt Premium Member join:2004-07-11 Snohomish, WA |
tshirt
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 2:47 pm
Re: lot of dataIt MIGHT be used to excuse that directly connected crime, but a continuous crime spree?
Isn't that exactly what they are accusing the FBI of?* That is thousands of illegal searches looking for that needle in the haystack/for evidence of more serious crimes?
*we can't say if the FBI action is in fact justified or legal/illegal due to the secercy of the action if any. we can certainly say that the hackers are operating outside the law, and evidence they present is suspect (or should be) because it is also the justification of their cause. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Thaler Premium Member join:2004-02-02 Los Angeles, CA |
Thaler
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 3:18 pm
Re: lot of datasaid by tshirt: Isn't that exactly what they are accusing the FBI of?* That is thousands of illegal searches looking for that needle in the haystack/for evidence of more serious crimes? Problem is, one of these groups is a random bunch of assholes that occasionally do something productive in their troll sprees. The other group is a government agency rifling through my junk in a questionably legal manner. I don't expect much from anonymous internet denizens. I should be able to expect someone I fund (albeit through taxes) to not screw me in return. Maybe I just expect too much. | |
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| | | | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
to TamaraB
You're blinded by your argument. How can you even begin to suggest that returning the UDID of one of my devices to everyone on the planet is "returning it to its owner"? | |
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| | | | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
Re: lot of datasaid by openbox9:How can you even begin to suggest that returning the UDID of one of my devices to everyone on the planet is "returning it to its owner"? The owner is whoever paid for it and that would be me. The rest of the owners are the entirety of US citizens who fund the FBI through taxes - paid directly and/or passed to them through the cost of goods they buy. | |
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| | | | | | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-6 12:47 am
Re: lot of dataOk, so yes, the UDID would be returned to the owner....and about 4 billion other people. How is that a good thing again? | |
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| | | | | | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
Re: lot of datasaid by openbox9:Ok, so yes, the UDID would be returned to the owner....and about 4 billion other people. How is that a good thing again? The whole of it includes public awareness that gov agencies warehouse our private info. Therein lies the good. | |
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| | | | | | | | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-6 10:03 am
Re: lot of dataSo two wrongs make a right? Does anyone actually believe that Big Brother hasn't been watching us? | |
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| | | | | | | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
Re: lot of datasaid by openbox9:So two wrongs make a right? Correcting a wrong by returning information to those who've paid for it is an excellent example of right. said by openbox9: Does anyone actually believe that Big Brother hasn't been watching us? Nearly everyone is uninformed of the level, depth and detail at which our government monitors us. This action rolls back a tiny bit of that unhealthy ignorance. | |
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| | | | | | | | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-6 10:58 am
Re: lot of datasaid by Noah Vail:Correcting a wrong by returning information to those who've paid for it is an excellent example of right. Returning information? Paid for? I'm still confused as to what point you're attempting to make. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
Re: lot of datasaid by openbox9:said by Noah Vail:Correcting a wrong by returning information to those who've paid for it is an excellent example of right. Returning information? Paid for? I'm still confused as to what point you're attempting to make. The entirety of government, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation is funded by US Taxpayers. What the government generates is owned by us - because we pay for it. | |
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| | | | | | | | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-6 12:48 pm
Re: lot of dataOk, now if you can tie the funding of our Federal Government to the allegations of FBI data being accessed and posted for the world to see, that would be nice. | |
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| | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
KrK to sk1939
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 1:22 pm
to sk1939
No, that's called whistleblowing or exposing wrong doing.
Oh yes, the authorities consider it a crime..... but it's still right in every way. | |
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| | | | | sk1939 Premium Member join:2010-10-23 Frederick, MD ARRIS SB8200 Ubiquiti UDM-Pro Juniper SRX320
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sk1939
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 2:05 pm
Re: lot of datasaid by KrK:No, that's called whistleblowing or exposing wrong doing.
Oh yes, the authorities consider it a crime..... but it's still right in every way. No, it's still illegal in every way. Whistleblowing is illegal, and for good reason. Go ahead, leak secrets to the Soviets and get people killed, after all your only helping the "balance of power".... | |
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Re: lot of dataSomethings you need to do illegal things for the greater good... | |
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| | | | | | | SimbaSevenI Void Warranties join:2003-03-24 Billings, MT ·StarLink
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Re: lot of datasaid by Trencher:Somethings you need to do illegal things for the greater good... Define greater good. If I gave Iran nuclear information to "balance" things out, am I really looking for the "greater good"? Classified is classified. If you're in the military and are leaking classified information, you deserve what you get. | |
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| | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
KrK to sk1939
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 9:24 pm
to sk1939
That's not whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is when you expose wrong doing or illegal and unethical behavior to the sunlight.
It's not only right, it's absolutely essential. | |
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| | | | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
to sk1939
said by sk1939:Whistleblowing is illegal, and for good reason. And that good reason is called self-serving corruption. That's the basis for all law written to protect violations of public trust. | |
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| | | | WHT join:2010-03-26 Rosston, TX |
to sk1939
said by sk1939:When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal. said by openbox9:Wrong. Thievery is thievery Ummmm...The second thief is a whistle blower. Anyway...If the data is still in possession of the original party, then there is no theft. If you steal money, that's theft becasue the original owner no longer has it. It may play out as an unauthorized access to a computer network - where a computer would still be considered part of a literal, but not physical, network | |
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| | | | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 8:21 pm
Re: lot of dataYou misquoted me. Anyway, the second alleged thief in this situation is more than a thief, given the cracking/breaking into the computer that was involved. Taking something that you do not have a right or permission to is theft, regardless of intentions. said by WHT:Anyway...If the data is still in possession of the original party, then there is no theft. I'm curious if you'd maintain that position if someone cracked your computer and "copied" all of your financial, medical, family, and personal information and then distributed it to everyone on the planet. said by WHT:It may play out as an unauthorized access to a computer network - where a computer would still be considered part of a literal, but not physical, network At least. And that's still a felony. | |
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| | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
to sk1939
said by sk1939:Wrong. Thievery is thievery In the same way that repossessing a toy from a child when they shouldn't have it is thievery. | |
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| | | skeechanAi Otsukaholic Premium Member join:2012-01-26 AA169|170 |
to TamaraB
Tell that to PFC Bradley Manning. | |
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to TamaraB
Wrong. Both are criminals. | |
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| | | FFH5 Premium Member join:2002-03-03 Tavistock NJ |
to TamaraB
said by TamaraB:said by openbox9:If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs. When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal. LOL. Point out that in the statutes. | |
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| | | | TamaraBQuestion The Current Paradigm Premium Member join:2000-11-08 Da Bronx ·Verizon FiOS Ubiquiti NSM5 Synology RT2600ac Apple AirPort Extreme (2013)
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TamaraB
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 6:08 pm
Re: lot of datasaid by FFH5:LOL. Point out that in the statutes. It's in the same statutes which allow the government to spy on you without a warrant, to grab personal information from ISPs without a warrant, to shut down websites without probable cause and without recourse, to detain people without charge..... it's in those "secret" statutes. If government can disobey laws with impunity, then we the people, who are the government, have been given the same rights by default. It's a shame that it takes an act of hacking to reveal what our government, who serves us at OUR pleasure, and at OUR expense, is doing to us in our name. Bob | |
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| | | | Noah VailOh God please no. Premium Member join:2004-12-10 SouthAmerica |
to FFH5
said by FFH5:said by TamaraB:said by openbox9:If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs. When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal. LOL. Point out that in the statutes. Or in other words, Celebrate Corruption! | |
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| | | openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144
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to TamaraB
That is quite possibly the silliest comment that I've read in a while. | |
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| wentlancYou Can't Fix Dumb.. join:2003-07-30 Maineville, OH |
to amungus
And there is no such thing as data compression that could make a large flat text file much smaller?? I agree that there must have been more data compromised, but 3TB uncompressed would easily fit onto todays laptops. | |
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to wentlanc
I would assume as the FBI, they have large hard drives. LoL | |
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| MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ 3 edits |
to amungus
It's possible a laptop could have a 3 TB drive, though most do not.
What I'm curious about is how Anonymous found the time to transfer 3 TB worth of data over WiFi without the laptop owner noticing.
Even assuming using 802.11n at the fastest theoretical speed (300 Mbps/37.5 MBps), that's still nearly a day to transfer all the data. Assuming realistic 802.11n speeds it would take about 2 days maxing out the laptops WiFi (which I'm assuming someone would notice). Granted if the data was compressed, the time to transfer would be considerably (maybe 1/10th of that so say about 4 hours), but still... | |
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| cdruGo Colts MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN |
to amungus
said by amungus:3TB from a laptop? I find that part hard to believe unless they mean uncompressed... Doubt they issue laptops with that kind of raw capacity. Whatever the hackers claim to have, however, is still some interesting data. Popcorn time.. Based on just the tweet, it doesn't indicate whether the 3TB are from this hack, other hacks, or compilation of miscellaneous other information they think is important. | |
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| Cthen Premium Member join:2004-08-01 Detroit, MI |
to amungus
said by amungus:3TB from a laptop? I find that part hard to believe unless they mean uncompressed... Interesting, why is it more believable if the data was uncompressed? | |
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jmn1207 Premium Member join:2000-07-19 Sterling, VA
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jmn1207
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 12:19 pm
The FBI Should Hire a Jedi for Damage ControlThese aren't the UDIDs you are looking for. | |
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2 Zoom 5341J
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KrK
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 1:21 pm
Deny, Deny, Deny!.... but.... hedge in case they have other evidence as pure proof.
I've said it for years: Authorities *HATE* hackers.... because they can expose too much sunlight into their "secret" (illegal) activities.
Expect some serious reprisals against Anti-Sec now.
Anyone care to raise bets whether they will be classified a "Terrorist" organization?
Anyone?
Anyone?
I said years ago that Hackers one day may be the only real freedom fighters we'll have left. | |
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| 60632649 (banned) join:2003-09-29 New York, NY |
60632649 (banned)
Member
2012-Sep-7 2:22 am
Re: Deny, Deny, Deny!bullshit, professionals have to pay bills and don't like sleeping rough like the smelly occupier types. Hackers can piss off. | |
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| | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium Member join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK |
KrK
Premium Member
2012-Sep-7 5:09 pm
Re: Deny, Deny, Deny!Yes, I can see how the exposure of illegal eavesdropping could crimp the profit potential, and the embarrass the power elite. Pass more draconian laws... that will help. | |
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Its a big BS ploySomeone on another forum made an interesting argument for what this data really was. Since we know that there are well more than 12 million iPhones sold just the past two quarters alone, the FBI or other TLA would have a heck of a lot more than 12 million records. The enlightening comment was that this data came from a server of sorts that was used to provide services to an iOS application that kept track of the UDIDs for managing requests. My guess that this is probably a true statement, and now one cares about news unless it is something absurd and over the top. Anyone could use Google to find some person on LinkedIn that works in the FBI. This whole story sounds like BS to me.
"we're sitting on 3TB additional data"... PROVE IT. What application was this tied to in the AppStore? Again, if this was a US Government agency, there would be a hell of a lot more info than 12 million records. And let me guess, this supposed FBI guy had 12 million records of data running in Excel or in a CSV file, YEAH RIGHT! | |
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19579823 (banned)An Awesome Dude join:2003-08-04 |
19579823 (banned)
Member
2012-Sep-5 5:02 pm
Of course the FBI is denying it.... THEY DONT WANT THE SHEEPLE TO SUDDENLY WAKE UP AND REALISE THEY HAVE ALL THIS!! | |
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Rekrul join:2007-04-21 Milford, CT |
Rekrul
Member
2012-Sep-5 7:25 pm
Java?What the hell does the FBI need Java for? In fact, what does anyone need Java for? I think I've used Java maybe three times in my life and it was never for anything that I needed to do, just a couple things I wanted to try out. | |
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| openbox9 Premium Member join:2004-01-26 71144 |
openbox9
Premium Member
2012-Sep-5 8:29 pm
Re: Java?Sadly, some organizations actually bought into the Java hype and have applications that require Java, at least in part. | |
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| 60632649 (banned) join:2003-09-29 New York, NY |
to Rekrul
It's our government, don't try to make sense of it. Their decisions make no sense. | |
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60632649 |
60632649 (banned)
Member
2012-Sep-5 10:43 pm
We were warnedWhen you hear these words it's time to head for the hills... "we're the government and we're here to help" -- RR | |
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