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FBI Denies AntiSec Hack Ever Happened
Though Press Statement Chooses Words Carefully

Yesterday we noted that hacking group AntiSec has released what they're claiming is a portion of a trove of Apple user data collected from a hacked FBI laptop. The group released what they say is only a redacted portion of 12 million Unique Device IDs, including personal information such as user names, device names, notification tokens, cell phone numbers and addresses. On Twitter, the FBI has responded by saying AntiSec's claims are "totally false."

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A statement to the press was a little more carefully worded -- not denying that the hack happened -- but denying that there's evidence the hack happened -- "at this time." The quote gives the impression they think they weren't hacked, but that they want to be careful as they investigate further:
quote:
The FBI is aware of published reports alleging that an FBI laptop was compromised and private data regarding Apple UDIDs was exposed. At this time there is no evidence indicating that an FBI laptop was compromised or that the FBI either sought or obtained this data.
As the press and public quite-correctly wonder why an FBI agent was carrying around 12 million unique ID numbers for iPhones and iPads, Anonymous offered this short response on Twitter:
quote:
...before you deny too much: Remember we're sitting on 3TB additional data. We have not even started.
view:
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footballdude
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join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO

footballdude

Premium Member

screw up

How bad of a beating do you get if the FBI gives you a secure laptop and you leave it lying around somewhere for hackers to steal?

Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON

Raptor

Member

Re: screw up

It wasn't physically stolen from what I read regarding the original story; data was obtained using that 0-day Java exploit last week.

morbo
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morbo to footballdude

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said by footballdude:

How bad of a beating do you get if the FBI gives you a secure laptop and you leave it lying around somewhere for hackers to steal?

That's the shocking part: no one will care so there will be no real beating. Look at all previous data leaks by the government and by private companies (credit card breaches). The consequences of the negligence is laughable.
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

amungus

Premium Member

lot of data

3TB from a laptop? I find that part hard to believe unless they mean uncompressed... Doubt they issue laptops with that kind of raw capacity. Whatever the hackers claim to have, however, is still some interesting data.
Popcorn time..
openbox9
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openbox9

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Re: lot of data

If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs.

TamaraB
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TamaraB

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Re: lot of data

said by openbox9:

If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs.

When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal.

sk1939
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sk1939

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by TamaraB:

said by openbox9:

If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs.

When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal.

Wrong. Thievery is thievery, no matter the origin of the material. Just because you stole it doesn't make it legitimate (ie if you shop lifted, and someone broke into your car and stole that merchandise, that merchandise isn't any more legitimate then when you had it).

TamaraB
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TamaraB

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Re: lot of data

said by sk1939:

that merchandise isn't any more legitimate then when you had

Unless you returned it to it's owner, which is what essentially has taken place here.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

1 edit

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by TamaraB:

Unless you returned it to it's owner, which is what essentially has taken place here.

Really? They seem to be suggesting public release which certainly won't help the privacy of the individuals to whom the info ID's, even IF it demonstrates the validity of their claim to have hacked that data.
No one likes what the FBI has done, some of it may be usefully security wise, but the secure handling of that info is a paramount duty so IF the FBI really lost it, that's a crime of it's own (aren't they now required to notify each user of its loss?)
Whistleblowers are protected for reveling a problem, but not if they found the problem by criminal means outside the scope of their normal employment.
something similar should apply to third parties, no matter how good their intentions (or not) the hacking itself is still a crime.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

But the privacy of the individuals was already breached. At least now people know about it.

tshirt
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join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

MAYBE data taken as they claim, MAYBE they got it elsewhere, and are blaming the FBI (makes a good story) MAYBE they have little or no data (it's most a story, for the PR value)
But suppose it happened as they say.
I would liken that to breaking into each house on a road, eventually I may find evidence of some illegal or unsavory actions in some house. reporting it is the right thing to do, but doesn't justify my break-ins.


Cthen
Premium Member
join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI

Cthen

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by tshirt:


I would liken that to breaking into each house on a road, eventually I may find evidence of some illegal or unsavory actions in some house. reporting it is the right thing to do, but doesn't justify my break-ins.

Actually, that has happened many times over in court. As long as the one who committed the crime was not the lawyer, the person tends to get a pardon on their actions in return for bringing vital evidence to a case. (Not every time though depending on how severe the crime was)

The problem here is this haxing group going public rather than saving it as evidence. They are trying to play a public judge and jury themselves without having any legal counsel doing research into what they have.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

It MIGHT be used to excuse that directly connected crime, but a continuous crime spree?

Isn't that exactly what they are accusing the FBI of?* That is thousands of illegal searches looking for that needle in the haystack/for evidence of more serious crimes?

*we can't say if the FBI action is in fact justified or legal/illegal due to the secercy of the action if any. we can certainly say that the hackers are operating outside the law, and evidence they present is suspect (or should be) because it is also the justification of their cause.

Thaler
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join:2004-02-02
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Thaler

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by tshirt:

Isn't that exactly what they are accusing the FBI of?* That is thousands of illegal searches looking for that needle in the haystack/for evidence of more serious crimes?

Problem is, one of these groups is a random bunch of assholes that occasionally do something productive in their troll sprees. The other group is a government agency rifling through my junk in a questionably legal manner.

I don't expect much from anonymous internet denizens. I should be able to expect someone I fund (albeit through taxes) to not screw me in return. Maybe I just expect too much.
openbox9
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join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9 to TamaraB

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to TamaraB
You're blinded by your argument. How can you even begin to suggest that returning the UDID of one of my devices to everyone on the planet is "returning it to its owner"?

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by openbox9:

How can you even begin to suggest that returning the UDID of one of my devices to everyone on the planet is "returning it to its owner"?

The owner is whoever paid for it and that would be me.

The rest of the owners are the entirety of US citizens who fund the FBI through taxes - paid directly and/or passed to them through the cost of goods they buy.
openbox9
Premium Member
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openbox9

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

Ok, so yes, the UDID would be returned to the owner....and about 4 billion other people. How is that a good thing again?

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
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Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by openbox9:

Ok, so yes, the UDID would be returned to the owner....and about 4 billion other people. How is that a good thing again?

The whole of it includes public awareness that gov agencies warehouse our private info. Therein lies the good.
openbox9
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openbox9

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Re: lot of data

So two wrongs make a right? Does anyone actually believe that Big Brother hasn't been watching us?

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
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Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by openbox9:

So two wrongs make a right?

Correcting a wrong by returning information to those who've paid for it is an excellent example of right.
said by openbox9:

Does anyone actually believe that Big Brother hasn't been watching us?

Nearly everyone is uninformed of the level, depth and detail at which our government monitors us. This action rolls back a tiny bit of that unhealthy ignorance.
openbox9
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openbox9

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by Noah Vail:

Correcting a wrong by returning information to those who've paid for it is an excellent example of right.

Returning information? Paid for? I'm still confused as to what point you're attempting to make.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
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Noah Vail

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

said by openbox9:

said by Noah Vail:

Correcting a wrong by returning information to those who've paid for it is an excellent example of right.

Returning information? Paid for? I'm still confused as to what point you're attempting to make.

The entirety of government, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation is funded by US Taxpayers.
What the government generates is owned by us - because we pay for it.
openbox9
Premium Member
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openbox9

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

Ok, now if you can tie the funding of our Federal Government to the allegations of FBI data being accessed and posted for the world to see, that would be nice.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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KrK to sk1939

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to sk1939
No, that's called whistleblowing or exposing wrong doing.

Oh yes, the authorities consider it a crime..... but it's still right in every way.

sk1939
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sk1939

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Re: lot of data

said by KrK:

No, that's called whistleblowing or exposing wrong doing.

Oh yes, the authorities consider it a crime..... but it's still right in every way.

No, it's still illegal in every way. Whistleblowing is illegal, and for good reason. Go ahead, leak secrets to the Soviets and get people killed, after all your only helping the "balance of power"....
Trencher
join:2007-02-12
Etobicoke, ON

Trencher

Member

Re: lot of data

Somethings you need to do illegal things for the greater good...

SimbaSeven
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SimbaSeven

Member

Re: lot of data

said by Trencher:

Somethings you need to do illegal things for the greater good...

Define greater good. If I gave Iran nuclear information to "balance" things out, am I really looking for the "greater good"?

Classified is classified. If you're in the military and are leaking classified information, you deserve what you get.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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KrK to sk1939

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to sk1939
That's not whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is when you expose wrong doing or illegal and unethical behavior to the sunlight.

It's not only right, it's absolutely essential.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
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Noah Vail to sk1939

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said by sk1939:

Whistleblowing is illegal, and for good reason.

And that good reason is called self-serving corruption.

That's the basis for all law written to protect violations of public trust.

WHT
join:2010-03-26
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said by sk1939:

When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal.

said by openbox9:

Wrong. Thievery is thievery

Ummmm...The second thief is a whistle blower.

Anyway...If the data is still in possession of the original party, then there is no theft. If you steal money, that's theft becasue the original owner no longer has it.

It may play out as an unauthorized access to a computer network - where a computer would still be considered part of a literal, but not physical, network
openbox9
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openbox9

Premium Member

Re: lot of data

You misquoted me. Anyway, the second alleged thief in this situation is more than a thief, given the cracking/breaking into the computer that was involved. Taking something that you do not have a right or permission to is theft, regardless of intentions.
said by WHT:

Anyway...If the data is still in possession of the original party, then there is no theft.

I'm curious if you'd maintain that position if someone cracked your computer and "copied" all of your financial, medical, family, and personal information and then distributed it to everyone on the planet.
said by WHT:

It may play out as an unauthorized access to a computer network - where a computer would still be considered part of a literal, but not physical, network

At least. And that's still a felony.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
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Noah Vail to sk1939

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to sk1939
said by sk1939:

Wrong. Thievery is thievery

In the same way that repossessing a toy from a child when they shouldn't have it is thievery.

•••••

skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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skeechan to TamaraB

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to TamaraB
Tell that to PFC Bradley Manning.

••••••••••••

battleop
join:2005-09-28
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battleop to TamaraB

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to TamaraB
Wrong. Both are criminals.

••••••

FFH5
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FFH5 to TamaraB

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to TamaraB
said by TamaraB:

said by openbox9:

If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs.

When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal.

LOL. Point out that in the statutes.

TamaraB
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TamaraB

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Re: lot of data

said by FFH5:

LOL. Point out that in the statutes.

It's in the same statutes which allow the government to spy on you without a warrant, to grab personal information from ISPs without a warrant, to shut down websites without probable cause and without recourse, to detain people without charge..... it's in those "secret" statutes. If government can disobey laws with impunity, then we the people, who are the government, have been given the same rights by default.

It's a shame that it takes an act of hacking to reveal what our government, who serves us at OUR pleasure, and at OUR expense, is doing to us in our name.

Bob

Noah Vail
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Noah Vail to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by TamaraB:

said by openbox9:

If the claim is true, I would assume that these criminals have obtained data from more than just one laptop, and more than just the 12M Apple UDIDs.

When a thief steals from a thief in order to publicly expose his crime, only the first thief is the criminal.

LOL. Point out that in the statutes.

Or in other words, Celebrate Corruption!
openbox9
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openbox9 to TamaraB

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That is quite possibly the silliest comment that I've read in a while.
wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..
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wentlanc to amungus

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to amungus
And there is no such thing as data compression that could make a large flat text file much smaller?? I agree that there must have been more data compromised, but 3TB uncompressed would easily fit onto todays laptops.

TamaraB
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Re: lot of data

said by wentlanc:

... 3TB uncompressed would easily fit onto todays laptops.

Could also be on a network share.
ExoticFish
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ExoticFish to wentlanc

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to wentlanc
I would assume as the FBI, they have large hard drives. LoL

Morac
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Riverside, NJ

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Morac to amungus

Member

to amungus
It's possible a laptop could have a 3 TB drive, though most do not.

What I'm curious about is how Anonymous found the time to transfer 3 TB worth of data over WiFi without the laptop owner noticing.

Even assuming using 802.11n at the fastest theoretical speed (300 Mbps/37.5 MBps), that's still nearly a day to transfer all the data. Assuming realistic 802.11n speeds it would take about 2 days maxing out the laptops WiFi (which I'm assuming someone would notice). Granted if the data was compressed, the time to transfer would be considerably (maybe 1/10th of that so say about 4 hours), but still...

•••••••••••••••

cdru
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cdru to amungus

MVM

to amungus
said by amungus:

3TB from a laptop? I find that part hard to believe unless they mean uncompressed... Doubt they issue laptops with that kind of raw capacity. Whatever the hackers claim to have, however, is still some interesting data.
Popcorn time..

Based on just the tweet, it doesn't indicate whether the 3TB are from this hack, other hacks, or compilation of miscellaneous other information they think is important.

Cthen
Premium Member
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Detroit, MI

Cthen to amungus

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to amungus
said by amungus:

3TB from a laptop? I find that part hard to believe unless they mean uncompressed...

Interesting, why is it more believable if the data was uncompressed?

•••

jmn1207
Premium Member
join:2000-07-19
Sterling, VA

1 recommendation

jmn1207

Premium Member

The FBI Should Hire a Jedi for Damage Control

These aren't the UDIDs you are looking for.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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KrK

Premium Member

Deny, Deny, Deny!

.... but.... hedge in case they have other evidence as pure proof.

I've said it for years: Authorities *HATE* hackers.... because they can expose too much sunlight into their "secret" (illegal) activities.

Expect some serious reprisals against Anti-Sec now.

Anyone care to raise bets whether they will be classified a "Terrorist" organization?

Anyone?

Anyone?

I said years ago that Hackers one day may be the only real freedom fighters we'll have left.
60632649 (banned)
join:2003-09-29
New York, NY

60632649 (banned)

Member

Re: Deny, Deny, Deny!

bullshit, professionals have to pay bills and don't like sleeping rough like the smelly occupier types. Hackers can piss off.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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join:2000-01-17
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KrK

Premium Member

Re: Deny, Deny, Deny!

Yes, I can see how the exposure of illegal eavesdropping could crimp the profit potential, and the embarrass the power elite. Pass more draconian laws... that will help.

Chicago_DSL6
join:2003-08-04
South Elgin, IL

Chicago_DSL6

Member

Its a big BS ploy

Someone on another forum made an interesting argument for what this data really was. Since we know that there are well more than 12 million iPhones sold just the past two quarters alone, the FBI or other TLA would have a heck of a lot more than 12 million records. The enlightening comment was that this data came from a server of sorts that was used to provide services to an iOS application that kept track of the UDIDs for managing requests. My guess that this is probably a true statement, and now one cares about news unless it is something absurd and over the top. Anyone could use Google to find some person on LinkedIn that works in the FBI. This whole story sounds like BS to me.

"we're sitting on 3TB additional data"... PROVE IT. What application was this tied to in the AppStore? Again, if this was a US Government agency, there would be a hell of a lot more info than 12 million records. And let me guess, this supposed FBI guy had 12 million records of data running in Excel or in a CSV file, YEAH RIGHT!

•••
19579823 (banned)
An Awesome Dude
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19579823 (banned)

Member

 

Of course the FBI is denying it.... THEY DONT WANT THE SHEEPLE TO SUDDENLY WAKE UP AND REALISE THEY HAVE ALL THIS!!
Rekrul
join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT

Rekrul

Member

Java?

What the hell does the FBI need Java for? In fact, what does anyone need Java for? I think I've used Java maybe three times in my life and it was never for anything that I needed to do, just a couple things I wanted to try out.
openbox9
Premium Member
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openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Java?

Sadly, some organizations actually bought into the Java hype and have applications that require Java, at least in part.
60632649 (banned)
join:2003-09-29
New York, NY

60632649 (banned) to Rekrul

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to Rekrul
It's our government, don't try to make sense of it. Their decisions make no sense.
60632649

60632649 (banned)

Member

We were warned

When you hear these words it's time to head for the hills...
"we're the government and we're here to help" -- RR