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FBI Whines That Some ISPs Stand Up to Them
Tries to Shame Carriers to Expand Surveillance Powers
by Karl Bode 08:52AM Tuesday Nov 06 2012 Tipped by cabana See Profile
If anything, carriers have been too mindlessly helpful when it comes to letting the government spy on its citizens, whether it's offering intelligence agencies wholesale illegal access to their networks, or actually giving advice on how to break privacy and surveillance laws. So it's curious to see that FBI has been trying to collect examples of uncooperative ISPs as ammunition in their latest effort to expand spying powers.

An internal Homeland Security report obtained by the EFF and dissected by CNET highlights the FBI's plan to gather this data, citing Cricket, MetroPCS, Comcast, and T-Mobile as companies that have impeded the FBI's goals in one way or another. While the FBI claims they had technical issues with carriers (which Cricket denies), the bigger issue appears to be that some ISPs are having problems with Homeland Security's overly-broad interpretation of wiretap and surveillance law:
quote:
Greg Lund, a spokesman for Cricket, told CNET today that "we review all incoming legal requests to determine what information is requested and whether disclosure of that information is lawfully permitted pursuant to the type of request submitted." If disclosure is legally permitted, he said, Cricket turns over the data, but "if not, we deny the request."...Homeland Security's response said its agents had encountered problems when interacting with some mobile and broadband companies -- including Comcast, MetroPCS, and T-Mobile -- though none of the delays or glitches were reported to have derailed a criminal investigation. Other delays appear to be due to disagreements that companies had with Homeland Security's interpretation of the law.
Keep in mind that the government's idea of a cooperative ISP is someone like AT&T, who not only gave the FBI advice on how to get around domestic spying law, but actually in some instances gleefully acted as intelligence analysts. AT&T has historically not only provided the FBI with information requested, but records show they turned over reams of unasked for data from people vaguely associated with surveillance targets just to be "helpful."

When that's the kind of cooperation the FBI has grown used to, there's little wonder they act aghast when a carrier actually decides to adhere to the law.

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BonezX
Basement Dweller
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1 recommendation

so....

how pissed would they be if an American citizen went to their ISP and collected wholesale information on the DHS, being that homeland security is run by the government who is accountable to the people that has elected them.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Re: so....

Pissed? Your name just goes on the Kill List for some kid playing a video game.

ArrayList
netbus developer
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL

1 recommendation

Re: so....

Where do I get in on this game? I want to play.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06

Re: so....

The USAF, and they pay you to play!

mmay149q
Premium
join:2009-03-05
Dallas, TX
kudos:48
said by Wilsdom:

Pissed? Your name just goes on the Kill List for The President since that's allowed with the NDAA now and we pretty much live in a dictatorship with that allowance.

There ya go, fixed it for ya!

Matt
--
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. -Albert Einstein
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA
They may be pissed and they have the bigger guns, so I wouldn't think any sane person would try that...

bobjohnson
Premium
join:2007-02-03
Orlando, FL
If someone tried that then they would be the terrorist and forgotten in Guantanamo bay. Yeah, that wouldn't work out very well.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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Re: so....

I think they gave up on that option and just kill them with drones now... And any civilians that happened to be nearby when the kill order was given since they like to use missiles rather than spending the effort to make a sniper drone.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

bobjohnson
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Re: so....

said by Kearnstd:

I think they gave up on that option and just kill them with drones now... And any civilians that happened to be nearby when the kill order was given since they like to use missiles rather than spending the effort to make a sniper drone.

So to rephrase my OP... If you try that, you will be considered a terrorist and then a missile will be shot at you while you're walking through a high traffic area in whatever city you live in... Haha.
--


Cthen

join:2004-08-01
Detroit, MI
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Re: so....

said by bobjohnson:

said by Kearnstd:

I think they gave up on that option and just kill them with drones now... And any civilians that happened to be nearby when the kill order was given since they like to use missiles rather than spending the effort to make a sniper drone.

So to rephrase my OP... If you try that, you will be considered a terrorist and then a missile will be shot at you while you're walking through a high traffic area in whatever city you live in... Haha.

Nothing a simple virus can't take of. Hell, they even leave it open enough for someone to do so.
--
"I like to refer to myself as an Adult Film Efficienato." - Stuart Bondek

tc1uscg

join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
said by bobjohnson:

If someone tried that then they would be the terrorist and forgotten in Guantanamo bay. Yeah, that wouldn't work out very well.

Having spent many days at GITMO, it's really not that bad of place. The weather is great but the banana rats are humongous. They are even bigger if you miss your ride on the "drunk wagon" while trying to get back to the ship and you happen to stumble into (or over) one.. They seem to get a little "pi$$ed".

Baud1200

join:2003-02-10
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said by BonezX:

how pissed would they be if an American citizen went to their ISP and collected wholesale information on the DHS, being that homeland security is run by the government who is accountable to the people that has elected them.

Pissed?? They wouldn't be pissed.. they got a NO FLY list just for people that want to hold gov. accountable.
Mr Matt

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2 recommendations

Abuse of power for government to spy on citizens.

There is a difference between an active investigation about a specific legal issue and trolling to look for something illegal. There is a whole new police schemes called stings. The same thing holds true with spying on citizens. With advancements in technology communication whether voice of text can be screened for key words. Call your accountant about a questionable tax exemption and get audited by the IRS. Ask a doctor about medical marijuana and get a visit by the DEA.

You see the abuse of power to spy at the airport. The purpose of the TSA was to prevent terrorist acts by passengers. When the protectors use their authority to snoop on passengers, that is over the top. The TSA questioning a person about their prescription controlled substances is outrageous and none of the governments business. Bring to much money with you and it might be seized as drug money and you will have to prove it was legal. Screening for anything other then weapons or dangerous materials should be declared illegal. The turn of this century was the end of respect for the constitution.

NormanS
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Re: Abuse of power for government to spy on citizens.

said by Mr Matt:

The turn of this century was the end of respect for the constitution.

What about the "Alien and Sedition Acts"? Turn of Eighteenth to Nineteenth Centuries. Ink was barely dry on the Constitution!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum
Mr Matt

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Re: Abuse of power for government to spy on citizens.

And then there were the Loyalty Oaths that citizens were required to sign during various times for various reasons since the United States of America was founded. Most recently was during the McCarthy Era's Red Scare. More about Loyalty Oaths in Wikipedia here:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath

Ahem

@120.29.150.x

Re: Abuse of power for government to spy on citizens.

The trouble with demonizing McCarthy is that it ignores the very real internal threat that communism presented. The fall of the Soviet Union led to the release of Soviet files (VENONA intercept) that PROVED the Soviet NKVD had 221 agents within the Roosevelt administration, and there where likely many others from the KGB. McCarthy wasn't a paranoid nut - he was right. I want to protect the Constitution, but I wonder how many jihadists (whether actual Islamic or simply leftists) or are lurking within the Obama administration. Some of them seem to be overt in their hatred of the US. Eric Holder, for example, comes to mind. The question is, how do we get the government to protect us from the government - an entity that is not uniform in its goals.

NormanS
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Re: Abuse of power for government to spy on citizens.

said by Ahem :

The trouble with demonizing McCarthy is that it ignores the very real internal threat that communism presented.

But even a broken clock (dial face) is right twice a day; just try to figure out when. "Tail-Gunner Joe" McCarthy flailed away at the U.S. Army (particularly the Signal Corps), but could not substantiate his allegations of subversion. He accused Gen. George C. Marshal of incompetence for "losing China to the Communists". VENONA only shows 9, of 159 accused by McCarthy, were likely subversive agents. Not a promising record.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
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elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

1 recommendation

“Secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy and censorship. When any government or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man who has been hoodwinked in this fashion; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, whose mind is free. No, not the rack nor the atomic bomb, not anything. You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.”
Robert A. Heinlein

TheHelpful1
Premium
join:2002-01-11
Upper Marlboro, MD

T-Mo

+1 for T-Mo. Maybe they are trying to improve things after all.
--
"My weakness is that I care too much"

cdru
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Fort Wayne, IN
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Re: T-Mo

said by TheHelpful1:

+1 for T-Mo. Maybe they are trying to improve things after all.

Only to the extent that denying it doesn't cost them more than complying with it. Don't think for a second that Large Faceless Corporation, INC. has any interest in your actual privacy.

bobjohnson
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Re: T-Mo

said by cdru:

said by TheHelpful1:

+1 for T-Mo. Maybe they are trying to improve things after all.

Only to the extent that denying it doesn't cost them more than complying with it. Don't think for a second that Large Faceless Corporation, INC. has any interest in your actual privacy.

They make less money by not complying. I doubt the likes of T or similar has no incentive to allow the 3 letter agencies do whatever they want.
--

Tobester

join:2000-11-14
San Francisco, CA
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Surveillance Powers

If the FBI or any other government agency feels the need for surveillance, simply get a warrant and make the whole process legal.

I still remain troubled by AT&T's complicity with the NSA's wholesale monitoring of internet and telecommunications traffic in the San Francisco case.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
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Mullica Hill, NJ
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Re: Surveillance Powers

you have to remember their "Fear-Words" that lets them sell warrantless monitoring. All they need to do is bring up "Terrorists" or "Protect the Children" and they could sell any crap to the viewers at home. Hell they could sell using predator drones fully armed over the US if they said it was to stop terrorists and protect the children.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports
sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111

2 recommendations

Big Brother is here...

You gotta think they (the government) are planning something big on the horizon for us poor chaps not in the loop. Ever notice how many cameras are now up around your town, especially at stoplights?

1. Patriot Act
2. National Defense Authorization Act
3. The Next Generation Identification program (FBI's new national facial recognition program)
4. Using the cell phone companies to belligerently spy on citizens
5. National Emergency Centers Establishment Act
6. Homeland Security

People really need to start paying attention to all of this...

mmay149q
Premium
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Dallas, TX
kudos:48

Re: Big Brother is here...

said by sandman_1:

You gotta think they (the government) are planning something big on the horizon for us poor chaps not in the loop. Ever notice how many cameras are now up around your town, especially at stoplights?

1. Patriot Act
2. National Defense Authorization Act
3. The Next Generation Identification program (FBI's new national facial recognition program)
4. Using the cell phone companies to belligerently spy on citizens
5. National Emergency Centers Establishment Act
6. Homeland Security

People really need to start paying attention to all of this...

Amen brother, Amen!

Matt
--
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. -Albert Einstein

buddahbless

join:2005-03-21
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Re: Big Brother is here...

said by mmay149q:

said by sandman_1:

You gotta think they (the government) are planning something big on the horizon for us poor chaps not in the loop. Ever notice how many cameras are now up around your town, especially at stoplights?

1. Patriot Act
2. National Defense Authorization Act
3. The Next Generation Identification program (FBI's new national facial recognition program)
4. Using the cell phone companies to belligerently spy on citizens
5. National Emergency Centers Establishment Act
6. Homeland Security

People really need to start paying attention to all of this...

Amen brother, Amen!

Matt

+1.. less we not forget

7. You need a US passport to go and come back now to even Canada ( A place we can walk to). Also all passport are now RFID equipped.

mmay149q
Premium
join:2009-03-05
Dallas, TX
kudos:48

Re: Big Brother is here...

said by buddahbless:

said by mmay149q:

said by sandman_1:

You gotta think they (the government) are planning something big on the horizon for us poor chaps not in the loop. Ever notice how many cameras are now up around your town, especially at stoplights?

1. Patriot Act
2. National Defense Authorization Act
3. The Next Generation Identification program (FBI's new national facial recognition program)
4. Using the cell phone companies to belligerently spy on citizens
5. National Emergency Centers Establishment Act
6. Homeland Security

People really need to start paying attention to all of this...

Amen brother, Amen!

Matt

+1.. less we not forget

7. You need a US passport to go and come back now to even Canada ( A place we can walk to). Also all passport are now RFID equipped.

Yeah that's true, the sad thing about all of this is that people DON'T pay attention to what is happening, for 1 because mainly the news doesn't report it since they are in bed with the government, and 2 because people really don't have time to come home, cook dinner after an 8 hour + day, clean the house, get the kids from school, etc etc etc, WHILE actually researching this stuff online (I started my research 4 years ago, and find something new at least every day, just to show how much work it is)

What we really need to do is replace the government AND all news companies to report FAIR coverage instead of keeping away from those kinds of subject, Ron Paul said it best, we have our 1st Amendment rights to talk about controversial things, not the weather....

Matt
--
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. -Albert Einstein
Kearnstd
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redlight cameras are for something more devious than government spying. They exist solely to increase ticket revenue. Cities know that cops are capable of this thing called giving a warning. well warnings do not increase revenue, cameras do not give warnings, only tickets.

so a cop pulls over grandma for running a red light. His computer says she has not had a citation for 20 years. being a nice guy he warns her to be more observant. the city sees that as a lost $100 bucks or more possibly. The camera does not care if you have never once had an accident or a traffic violation for 20 years, it issues a standard priced ticket.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

Disturbing

It is very disturbing that the FBI is complaining that businesses aren't willingly violating the laws set up to protect citizens from wholesale spying. Follow the laws or lobby to get the laws changed. Don't shame companies for following the law.

WiseOldBear
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Power Corrupts

and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Proof resides in every government office in Washington and throughout the USA.
--
My perception is REALITY
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
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NYC
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Re: Power Corrupts

That is exactly why WikiLeaks should be praised and whistle-blowers considered heroes. When the government breaks the law (or considers themselves above it) people should know about it. Only through exposure can crimes be dealt with.

StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
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Galt's Gulch
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1 edit

Use the right words

Well no matter which ISP you have or what cell provider you use make sure you use the right words while you're being monitored.

»Homeland Security words to avoid

Might also want to drive rather than (try to) fly

»NO-FLY LIST Strands man on Island in Hawaii

BTW if windowless and unmarked grey vans park outside your residence don't worry. They're not monitoring you. Really.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

NormanS
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Re: Use the right words

said by StuartMW:

BTW if windowless and unmarked grey vans park outside your residence don't worry. They're not monitoring you. Really.

How would I know which, of 216, residence they are watching? (All are at one street address.)
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
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Re: Use the right words

Well I'm sure "you have nothing to hide" so they must be watching someone else
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!
rdmiller

join:2005-09-23
Richmond, VA

Not grown here

Fortunately for America, we don't have any "home grown" terrorists! Those news stories about Lone Wolf terrorists being apprehended in the act of detonating their explosives are just government propaganda. Right.

••••

vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

I hope

I hope ISP's on the list use it in their advertising.
firedrakes

join:2009-01-29
Arcadia, FL

Re: I hope

yeah. think of isp listed agency that spy on their costumer

Camaro
Question everything
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Westfield, MA
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No Point

Who cares, all they are going to do is slap a National security tag on this and the floodgates of information will open because no isp or phone company will go up against that, never.

On a separate note, I think Enemy of the State has come full circle to predicting our current situation to the letter. If people have time you should watch it again and think about the last lines of the movie that were said by Larry King.