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story category FCC Lusts After TV Industry Spectrum
Hopes to beef up wireless broadband capacity
09:21AM Monday Nov 02 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: fcc · business · wireless
According to Amy Shatz over at the Wall Street Journal, the FCC is considering taking some additional spectrum from TV broadcasters and auctioning it to wireless carriers in order to beef up the nation's wireless broadband infrastructure. The idea, which may or may not be included in the FCC's national broadband plan (scheduled to be unveiled in February), could address what the FCC is calling "a looming spectrum gap."

As they're doing with most every other broadband industry subject, the FCC recently asked for comments regarding how people think the nation should best approach shoring up this spectrum shortfall. The Consumer Electronics Association responded by estimating Uncle Sam could make up to $62 billion if it took back all the spectrum in the possession of the TV industry. The study estimated it could require up to $12 billion in payments to broadcasters for the spectrum, and then about $9 billion to transition free digital broadcast customers to subscription cable services.

Obviously, broadcasters aren't too thrilled by that idea, and lashed out at the study, complaining that it "ignores the immeasurable public benefit of a vibrant free and local broadcasting system." Transferring all of the TV industry's spectrum is highly unlikely given it would require transferring all TV viewers to subscription cable service after the FCC just spent $2.15 billion on the digital broadcast transition.

Even asking the TV industry to give up slivers of spectrum will likely be fought by broadcast lobbyists. Of course fans of free over the air digital broadcasts probably wouldn't much like the idea either. Of course it's just that -- an idea -- and discussing how to make the most of the wireless spectrum available is precisely the conversation the FCC's looking to have.

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Forums » FCC Lusts After TV Industry Spectrum
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Eat Me

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2 edits

It's easy now with DTV... not really

No changing of channel numbers necessary any more. Just lop off a chunk of spectrum, force broadcasters to move and channel numbers change. Right? Not so fast. A big problem was and is interference issues which don't magically go away. Once you force stations to play musical chairs again you open up that can of worms.

ETA: I see this is about taking away ALL the broadcast spectrum. Sorry, this isn't going to happen. OTA has actually seen a resurgence in interest with DTV. To take it away now would be criminal.

DaveNJ
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1 edit

Crazy idea

I know alot of people still just using ota. Plus if there were a new auction, it should be new companies only. Not the big huge ATT, and Verizons types. I could understand them taking away all of Vhf, but not the entire deal. Radio needs to go fully digital as well.

TKJunkMail
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Re: Crazy idea

said by DaveNJ See Profile :

I could understand them taking away all of Vhf, but not the entire deal. Radio needs to go fully digital as well.
Most of the digital OTA is now in the UHF band. I suspect it would be possible to reclaim the VHF bandwidth and pay the stations that would have to move their frequency from VHF to UHF out of the proceeds of the wireless auctions.
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Re: Crazy idea

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by DaveNJ See Profile :

I could understand them taking away all of Vhf, but not the entire deal. Radio needs to go fully digital as well.
Most of the digital OTA is now in the UHF band. I suspect it would be possible to reclaim the VHF bandwidth and pay the stations that would have to move their frequency from VHF to UHF out of the proceeds of the wireless auctions.
Low VHF is less than optimal due to reflections and noise. High VHF could be used.

So I'd suggest abandoning low VHF, giving a small 70MHz allocation (70-70.5) to ham radio operators, and leaving the rest open for white space devices and an expanded (digital?) audio broadcasting service to supplement FM and get rid of this IBOC crap.

tschmidt
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

I suspect it would be possible to reclaim the VHF bandwidth and pay the stations that would have to move their frequency from VHF to UHF
VHF Lo is not well suited for digital TV, due to propagation and man-made noise issues. VHF Hi has experienced a lot of problems since transition to Digital TV, but that seems to be more related to overly optimistic estimates of power requirement then anything else.

I assume that will also make VHF, or at least VHF Lo unattractive for other forms of digital communications. In addition FM broadcasters are clamoring for more spectrum, Low end of FM is adjacent to TV Channel 6 so expanding FM down is easy.

Looks like a lot more is in play then I though.

/tom
mc5w

join:2002-06-14
Independence, OH

Re: Crazy idea

Expanding FM radio into TV channels 5 and 6 is actually easier than you think. Japan already uses those frequencies for FM broadcast so expansion would be as easy as buying a seciond set of radios.

In actuality, the computer controlled tuners in FM radios probably can tune 76 to 108 MHz if the firmware is unlocked to allow the radio to tune both US and Japanese frequencies. That is, probably the only difference between a US and Japanese FM radio is a software restriction on which set of frequencies it can receive. If the manufacturers do not offer a firmware upgrade, I am pretty sure that somebody could hack the firmware.
ncbill
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The only VHF station here locally has filed to move back to UHF.

They were much happier with their reach when on their what was supposed to only be temporary UHF frequency.

I bet broadcasters would be willing to dump high and low VHF if they can get assigned UHF instead.

Laughing Man
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That study stinks

said by the article :

The study estimated it could require up to $12 billion in payments to broadcasters for the spectrum, and then about $9 billion to transition free digital broadcast customers to subscription cable services.
I'll drop tv altogether before I'm forced into using a subscription tv service, I have never had cable and don't plan on ever having it.
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Re: That study stinks

said by Laughing Man See Profile :

I'll drop tv altogether before I'm forced into using a subscription tv service, I have never had cable and don't plan on ever having it.
You are a minority they don't care about.
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Laughing Man
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Re: That study stinks

Too true

BF69

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said by DataDoc See Profile :

said by Laughing Man See Profile :

I'll drop tv altogether before I'm forced into using a subscription tv service, I have never had cable and don't plan on ever having it.
You are a minority they don't care about.
minority?

largest providers of TV to Americans

1) Comcast
2) DirectTv
3) OTA

Cox, Charter, Cablevison and BrightHouse are the #3, #4, #5 and #6 cable companies in the US and OTA provides more TV to Americans than all 4 of them COMBINED.
DannyZ
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Re: That study stinks

Time Warner is conspicuously absent from your list...

What is your source?

BF69

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Re: That study stinks

said by DannyZ See Profile :

Time Warner is conspicuously absent from your list...

What is your source?
Time Warner has less viewers than OTA that's why they are not on the list Einstien.

Well let's see at least 16 million households are OTA only.

Largest cable companies

1 Comcast Corporation 23,891,000
2 Time Warner Cable, Inc. 13,048,000
3 Cox Communications, Inc.1 5,316,100
4 Charter Communications, Inc. 4,929,900
5 Cablevision Systems Corporation 3,093,000
6 Bright House Networks LLC 2,301,300

»www.ncta.com/Stats/TopMSOs.aspx

DIRECTV U.S. Passes 18 Million Subscriber Mark Driven by 22% Increase in Gross Additions and the Lowest Monthly Churn Rate in 10 Years of 1.33%

»investor.directv.com/releasedeta···D=382409

So only Comcast and DirecTv are in more homes than OTA.

Any more obtuse questions?

tschmidt
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Whitespace

I don't understand need to further reduce over the air (OTA) TV spectrum – doesn’t the whitespace initiative go a long way to address this issue? Whitespace allows unused TV channels to be used for data. UHF TV used to go all the way up to Channel 83. That was reduced to Channel 69 years ago and to Channel 51 in June of this year.

Seems to me whitespace is a good trade-off between broadcast TV and broadband. In urban areas there are lots of OTA stations and multiple forms of wired broadband. So there is little need for additional wireless broadband. In rural areas there are few stations and limited wired broadband making wireless ISPs attractive.

There is concern nearby whitespace transmitters will cause problems due to signal ingress and OTA preamp overload. I assume that is no worse then situation today of nearby TV stations in rural areas.

Wireless carriers are rolling out 3G data service. I am not aware they face a huge bandwidth crunch. They just got much of the spectrum freed up from TV. Mobile wireless services are power constrained resulting in small coverage area with high degree of frequency reuse. That makes them very spectrum efficient.

My understanding is that 10-15% of US households are dependent on OTA, while a larger percentage use OTA in addition to Cable or Sat. While relatively small percentage of total viewers still represents a lot of households. I for one have no desire to trade my once every 20-year capital investment in an outdoor antenna for monthly fee.

/tom

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1 edit

Re: Whitespace

said by tschmidt See Profile :

There is concern nearby whitespace transmitters will cause problems due to signal ingress and OTA preamp overload. I assume that is no worse then situation today of nearby TV stations in rural areas.
The issue isn't overload. Rather, it's the inability for a white space device to determine whether there is a TV signal present on a particular channel.

Many rural OTA viewers need high antennas with lots of gain and directivity. A white space device with a "rubber duck" antenna isn't going to know that a TV signal is there, but it is going to transmit a strong local signal and probably overpower the TV signal in the rural area.

BF69

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said by tschmidt See Profile :

I don't understand need to further reduce over the air (OTA) TV spectrum – doesn’t the whitespace initiative go a long way to address this issue? Whitespace allows unused TV channels to be used for data. UHF TV used to go all the way up to Channel 83. That was reduced to Channel 69 years ago and to Channel 51 in June of this year.
Inother words broadcasters have already given up 40% of the spectrum they had back in before 1983 when TV went up to 83. And most of the spectrum went to the wireless companies who are now asking for more. WTF have they done with the spectrum they currently own? I'd like to see some proof they've used up the nearly 200 Mhz of spectrum they managed to steal from broadcasters before they steal some more.
cornelius785

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I'm all for the presence of white space devices sharing the spectrum. I'm confident that a device can be made to coexist peacefully with TV transmissions, despite what the fear mongerers have to say.
jay_rm

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1 edit

Oh Sure !

the FCC is considering taking some additional spectrum from TV broadcasters and auctioning it to wireless carriers in order to beef up the nation's wireless broadband infrastructure depleted treasury
..fixed it for you
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unoriginal

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1 edit

Cable would love all the new customers

So now the gov't might subsidize cable service for people each month? Man, Comcast, TWC and the like would love to have all those new people take on service. I wonder how much lobbying and money they would be willing to throw at the FCC to make it happen should this plan actually gain traction.
ualdayan

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Re: Cable would love all the new customers

said by unoriginal See Profile :

So now the gov't might subsidize cable service for people each month? Man, Comcast, TWC and the like would love to have all those new people take on service. I wonder how much lobbying and money they would be willing to throw at the FCC to make it happen should this plan actually gain traction.
Not everybody can get cable, they might have to pay for satellite TV for those people.

If they take away airwaves that let you receive TV for free now in order to give them to the wireless industry so those companies can charge you to use them then they would have an obligation to provide equivalent service. Maybe they could strike a deal with cable/satellite companies to provide a free service tier of just the locals to anybody that wants it, but I think over the years eventually that would cost more than the profit from selling the airwaves in the first place.

Having TV station use more efficient digital broadcasting made sense, that only required a 1 time cost of converter boxes. Taking away broadcast entirely however would cause a recurring cost to provide locals to people.

n2jtx

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I Am Sure There A Supporters

I am sure the Cable and Satellite companies are 100% behind this since it would mean a huge increase in their revenues. I for one would turn off the TV if there was no more free-to-air.
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MichaelWacey
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Packet Based TV

We need to get rid of the idea of dedicated bandwidth.

Now that we have made the switch to Digital TV, the next switch should be to packet based TV. This should be done in conjunction with all the other users of spectrum. A packet based approach would allow multiple suppliers to share the same bandwidth for multiple purposes.

It could work just as the Internet works today. Broadcasters would send out packets on the first free spectrum that they find. There would have to be a QoS system and control channels to ensure it all works as planned. But, the days of dedicated spectrum should come to an end.

Given the commodity price of packet based hardware, this should not be expensive to implement. At worst, it would require some buffer memory on the receiving end.

This will take at lease ten years, but planning must start now.
PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
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2 edits

Makes sense

When you think about it, the current TV system is very wasteful of very valuable spectrum and woefully antiquated. Think about it: in prime time and for much of daytime as well, you have groups of 200+ TV stations, all broadcasting the same content, save for a few local commercials and a little bit of local content. What a waste of spectrum.

Alot of countries who deployed TV later than we did, didn't even bother with local broadcasting. Satellite/cable is a much more efficient way of distributing nationwide programming. Satellite Free To Air (FTA) is widely used in those countries. Local content can be delivered via IPTV over broadband.

Will it ever happen? I doubt it. The NAB has too much power in Congress.

BF69

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Re: Makes sense

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

When you think about it, the current TV system is very wasteful of very valuable spectrum and woefully antiquated. Think about it: in prime time and for much of daytime as well, you have groups of 200+ TV stations, all broadcasting the same content, save for a few local commercials and a little bit of local content. What a waste of spectrum.

Alot of countries who deployed TV later than we did, didn't even bother with local broadcasting. Satellite/cable is a much more efficient way of distributing nationwide programming. Satellite Free To Air (FTA) is widely used in those countries. Local content can be delivered via IPTV over broadband.

Will it ever happen? I doubt it. The NAB has too much power in Congress.
You forget the PEOPLE own the airwaves not the wireless companies. I am part of the people I say FUCK OFF wireless you're not getting any more. nuff said. When I get my share the $20 billion that was made auctioning off MY airwaves last year then we can talk about auctioning off some more.
mr weather
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Re: Makes sense

I too will stop watching tv if OTA is taken away.

Why don't we given them low-band? There's about 30 MHz of spectrum that could be used by those crying for more.

Oh wait, the industry doesn't want to have to deal with large antennas and all that Part 15 device noise that they helped create.
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patcat88

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local broadcasting?

quote:
Obviously, broadcasters aren't too thrilled by that idea, and lashed out at the study, complaining that it "ignores the immeasurable public benefit of a vibrant free and local broadcasting system."

Then lets require 50% of the broadcasted content to be filmed within 100 miles of the station and 75% must be set in the local community.

Network and local are opposites.

Guspaz
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Why does TV get special treatment?

TV appears to be consuming ~300MHz of spectrum if I'm reading various sources right. That's a gigantic swath of spectrum that could be put to MUCH more efficient use.

Using current technology (let's say LTE), that's ~4800 Mbps worth of spectrum. Television can be distributed freely over the internet. The current approach is a waste, with most of that 300MHz not even being used in most areas!
mr weather
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Re: Why does TV get special treatment?

This discussion has come up before elsewhere. To "broadcast" full HDTV on the internet would require one helluva pipe to each individual user. A full 1080i OTA HD signal is currently sent at 19.4 Mbit/s. That's a lot of bandwidth for only ONE HD channel. The majority of "broadband" users are lucky to have 5-10 Mbit/s connection.

And don't wave around the argument that they can compress it down further so it takes up less space. It'll look like ass to the end user no matter what you do. Cable and satellite BDU's compress their HD channels and it's very easy to tell the difference compared to the OTA equivalent.

At this point in time, transmitting such a signal through the air so that hundreds of thousands can receive it simultaneously simply works so much better than sending it through the internet.
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tschmidt
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Not sure where you are getting your numbers from.

DTV delivers 19.4 Mbps over a 6 MHz channel or 3.3 bits per hertz.

LTE is around 5 bits per hertz, not all that different.

DTV has a lot of forward error correction to deal with high path attenuation/ fading. If it were not for that a 6 MHz channel could carry 40 Mbps (6.7 bits per hertz) like Cable.

I agree the future of fixed TV will likely be IPTV, but first mile connection will need to be much faster, around 100 Mbps for a family of four.

IPTV is definitely not free. Current broadcast model is very cost effective way to send the same program to many viewers. IP multicast is not yet ready for prime time requiring separate feed for each viewer.

/tom
floydb_1982

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Ok who made this story up?

OK who made this story up? The FCC would never do this sort thing.
Selenia

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You gotta be kidding...

I can tell you the wireless bandwidth problems here have nothing to do with spectrum and everything to do with backhaul capacity. Just look at the #/users for the area vs the bandwidth actually provided and it does not add up to the available spectrum at all. It's not that hard to figure out in a small city like this surrounded by many small towns.

If this story is true, we should fight the FCC tooth and nail. First step at this stage is bomb the suggestion box. I know that even in this little area in Massachusetts I would be concerned about the weather taking out the cable in an emergency. Our snowstorms are severe, at times, and we have had a few events like tornados. All of which would make the Emergency Broadcast System a total waste by simply taking out the cable(easy even for a snowstorm) and/or blocking view for satellite dishes. I would hate to see how emergency broadcasting would fare in places with frequent hurricanes, like Florida.

Wizeguy

join:2008-08-23
Safety Harbor, FL

for the times they are a changin

1900 to 1940's concentrated on Mass Transportation
1940's to 1960's concentrated on the Military Industrial Complex.
1960's to 1980's kicked back smoked massive amounts of
wacky tobacky.
Late 1980's Al Gore invents the internet!
1990's to present concentrating on Mass Communication.

The growth will be insane using every drop of spectrum available until the pipes burst and web collapses.
Forums » FCC Lusts After TV Industry Spectrum


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