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FCC Unveils Details On Reclassification Plans
Genachowski, agency's top lawyer highlight 'third way'
by Karl Bode Thursday 06-May-2010 tags: legal · fcc · business
As noted yesterday, the FCC has decided to take a "third approach" to regulating broadband carriers, partially classifying them as "common carriers" under Title 2 of the Communications Act. The agency spent last night and this morning briefing carriers, Wall Street analysts and politicians on their plans. Under this partial Title 2 classification, ISPs won't be forced to open their networks to competitors (something that would be required were they fully classified as common carriers).

FCC boss Julius Genachowski issued a statement (pdf) this morning with more detail -- as did FCC General Counsel Austin Schlick (we've got a .doc copy of his statement here for those interested). According to Genachowski, the goal with this move is "to restore the broadly supported status quo consensus" that existed prior to the FCC's court loss to Comcast over throttling upstream user traffic. Specifically, the FCC wants to:

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•Recognize the transmission component of broadband access service—and only this component— as a telecommunications service;

•Apply only a handful of provisions of Title II (Sections 201, 202, 208, 222, 254, and 255) that, prior to the Comcast decision, were widely believed to be within the Commission’s purview for broadband; The entire Communications act is here (pdf).

•Simultaneously renounce—that is, forbear from—application of the many sections of the Communications Act that are unnecessary and inappropriate for broadband access service; and

•Put in place up-front forbearance and meaningful boundaries to guard against regulatory overreach.

Again, this move is going to be debated by policy wonks for years -- but the gist is that the FCC's trying to find some kind of middle ground between carriers (who obviously would love an FCC that had no authority of any kind) and consumer advocates (who want a tough regulator on the beat crafting new regulations). This partial reclassification strips all but six of the roughly four dozen Title 2 rules, and won't involve regulating broadband rates -- or requiring that ISPs open their networks to competitors.

There's still a lot of detail to be hashed out here, and the proposal must be opened to public comment and then receive approval from at least three of the five FCC Commissioners. Genachowski appears to be trying to please everybody -- which may or may not work. We'll post reaction links from impacted parties below.

Comcast has this to say about the decision:

While we are disappointed with the inclination not to lean in favor of Title I regulation, we are prepared to work constructively with the Commission to determine whether there is a "third way" approach that allows the Commission to take limited but effective measures to preserve an open Internet and implement critical features of the National Broadband Plan, but does not cast the kind of regulatory cloud that would chill investment and innovation by ISPs.

Consumer advocacy firm Public Knowledge issued this statement:

We are generally very pleased with the FCC’s statement this morning. We have said for months that the right path for the Commission to take would be to examine all the possibilities for the best way to protect consumers and guarantee the expansion of broadband. The method the FCC is expected to propose should be on the table, and we are glad it is. "Having said that, we were not pleased to read that the Commission at the outset is foreclosing the possibility of requiring line sharing. As the Berkman report found, line sharing is a crucial method to ensuring the long-term vibrancy of the broadband market and to providing more choices for consumers.

Free Press says they're "encouraged" by the plan:

By putting the FCC's regulatory framework back in harmony with congressional intent, Chairman Genachowski is reversing one of the worst deregulatory mistakes of the past decade. This is a step in the right direction that rejects the special interests of giant network owners. But he should be cautious about throwing out rules that would promote competition and affordability. The Chairman’s plan appears to preemptively abandon important provisions of the law that serve consumers.

From the NCTA:

We firmly believe that the case for new regulation of the Internet has not been made. Today’s competitive and dynamic broadband marketplace already operates according to openness principles that have broad industry consensus and serve consumers well. We support the goals and many recommendations of the National Broadband Plan. And, as we have repeatedly made clear, we are prepared to work constructively with the FCC, Congress and all policymakers to create an appropriate framework that preserves an open Internet and achieves the goals of the Broadband Plan.

Sprint has this to say:

While still reviewing the implications of the FCC's legal arguments, Sprint appreciates the FCC's statement that any regulation it may assert would be through a light regulatory touch. Sprint agrees the past decade has seen the rapid development of a competitive and innovative commercial mobile wireless communications marketplace under such a light regulatory touch. Sprint commends the FCC for the cautious approach it is taking toward this complex subject. The FCC can and should foster similar growth in broadband by focusing its energies on protecting consumers by promoting competition and placing checks and balances on providers with market power."

AT&T's top lobbyist Jim Cicconi is "deeply disappointed":

We are deeply disappointed that, in order to deal with an adverse court decision, the FCC chairman has decided to subject all broadband facilities, including Internet backbones, to common carriage regulation under Title II. We believe this is without legal basis. Make no mistake—when it regulates the networks that comprise the Internet, the FCC is in fact, and for the first time, regulating the Internet itself. There is no statutory basis for doing so—indeed it is directly contrary to Congress’s stated intentions—and is being done without any compelling evidence that would justify a reversal of the FCC’s prior decisions on this issue. If the FCC follows through with the chairman’s stated intent, it will have a direct impact on jobs and investment in one of the areas of the US economy that many hoped could help lead the recovery.

Time Warner Cable says the FCC's move could "damage the consumer experience:

We are encouraged that the Chairman’s proposal does not go beyond previously articulated principles regarding regulation of the internet. However, we remain concerned about the view that there is something unique about last-mile broadband access providers that requires different regulation from other internet participants.

Additionally, we are concerned with reclassifying broadband service as a Title II service, which could create regulatory uncertainty that could dampen investment and innovation and ultimately, damage the consumer experience.


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tiger72
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Looks good to me

Honestly, I think this is the best of both worlds in my book.

Linesharing and rate regulation both would have stifled CAPEX investments in the future. Let the market determine pricing on its own. Just because many people are too stupid to switch ISPs, doesn't mean that the ISPs should be forced to cut revenue. As for the linesharing, as a business I would be very nervous about investing in fiber buildouts if I knew that i'd have to open that up to my competitors at rates regulated by the government.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
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sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
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Re: Looks good to me

said by tiger72:

Honestly, I think this is the best of both worlds in my book.

Linesharing and rate regulation both would have stifled CAPEX investments in the future. Let the market determine pricing on its own. Just because many people are too stupid to switch ISPs, doesn't mean that the ISPs should be forced to cut revenue. As for the linesharing, as a business I would be very nervous about investing in fiber buildouts if I knew that i'd have to open that up to my competitors at rates regulated by the government.
The Berkman study found that line-sharing actually *spurred* investment. If you simply follow the situation in countries where it is implemented, you quickly see how rising competitors' ambitions to spread their territory as far as possible leads to increased investment by all parties.

Look at Verizon. They've already given up on FTTH now that Seidenberg is gone. AT&T refuses to upgrade to modern tech. Cable's only upgrading to DOCSIS 3 because it's so cheap, and FIOS forced their hand a bit.

Where's the future promised capex? If there's no competition, corporations will just sit tight and avoid investment.

Look at what Free.fr has done in France. Not only have they dominated the telecom market, but the owner's policy of taking a flat $10/customer/month profit and spending the rest on the network has led to enormous growth.

It may be counter intuitive, but proper and strict regulation does in fact spur investment.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
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Re: Looks good to me

said by sonicmerlin:

Look at Verizon. They've already given up on FTTH now that Seidenberg is gone.
Seidenberg is gone? VZ cooled it's FTTH deployment because the uptake is slower than expected. Why continue deploying a new infrastructure if the ROI isn't there?
said by sonicmerlin:

AT&T refuses to upgrade to modern tech.
Exhibit Verizon. AT&T is spending significantly less money than Verizon. Everyone is focusing on wireless which is where the future is going at this point.
said by sonicmerlin:

If there's no competition, corporations will just sit tight and avoid investment.
Most of the players aren't sitting tight. They continue to increase CAPEX each year right now.
sonicmerlin

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2 edits

Re: Looks good to me

quote:
Seidenberg is gone? VZ cooled it's FTTH deployment because the uptake is slower than expected. Why continue deploying a new infrastructure if the ROI isn't there?
"Over the last few years it's become apparent that Seidenberg's personal desire to beat the competition has been the primary reason the U.S. is not further behind. FiOS is the largest new network built in the Western world. Cable's DOCSIS 3.0 was developed as a response to FiOS. Brian Roberts of Comcast tells the story of lookng Ivan in the eyes, deciding he was going ahead, and then giving orders to his team and Cablelabs to go full steam ahead on DOCSIS."
»www.dslprime.com/dslprime/42-d/2···is-dying.

quote:
Exhibit Verizon. AT&T is spending significantly less money than Verizon. Everyone is focusing on wireless which is where the future is going at this point.
Wireless can't provide the reliable high speeds of wired in dense urban and surburban areas. It will only replace wired in rural locales.

quote:
Most of the players aren't sitting tight. They continue to increase CAPEX each year right now.
That's just not true. 2009 was the lowest year for capex investment in a long while, in part because carriers were hoping to get government handouts.

Without line sharing AT&T and Verizon's customers won't be seeing any upgrades for a long time. And other DSL providers don't have a wireless business to provide capital for building out FTTH. The landscape is getting more and more barren.
openbox9

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Alexandria, VA
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Re: Looks good to me

said by sonicmerlin:

"Over the last few years it's become apparent that Seidenberg's personal desire to beat the competition has been the primary reason the U.S. is not further behind. FiOS is the largest new network built in the Western world. Cable's DOCSIS 3.0 was developed as a response to FiOS. Brian Roberts of Comcast tells the story of lookng Ivan in the eyes, deciding he was going ahead, and then giving orders to his team and Cablelabs to go full steam ahead on DOCSIS."
»www.dslprime.com/dslprime/42-d/2···is-dying.
And that explains VZ ceasing its FTTH buildout? Considering Seidenberg is still at VZ, what's the reason for stopping the build?
said by sonicmerlin:

Wireless can't provide the reliable high speeds of wired in dense urban and surburban areas. It will only replace wired in rural locales.
It's still the future and where a significant portion of investment is being placed.
said by sonicmerlin:

That's just not true. 2009 was the lowest year for capex investment in a long while, in part because carriers were hoping to get government handouts.
I'm going to continue linking to this thread until you acknowledge it

Morac

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Re: Looks good to me

said by openbox9:

And that explains VZ ceasing its FTTH buildout? Considering Seidenberg is still at VZ, what's the reason for stopping the build?
VZ needs to recoup from its losses before it continues deploying. FIOS deployment cost thousands of dollars per house. If VZ continued deploying, they would bankrupt themselves via subscriber growth.
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openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
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Re: Looks good to me

Explain that to sonicmerlin See Profile, who continues to dismiss simple issues like that.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
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1 edit
said by Morac:

said by openbox9:

And that explains VZ ceasing its FTTH buildout? Considering Seidenberg is still at VZ, what's the reason for stopping the build?
VZ needs to recoup from its losses before it continues deploying. FIOS deployment cost thousands of dollars per house. If VZ continued deploying, they would bankrupt themselves via subscriber growth.
They're deploying FTTH to people that are already in their own territory. And bankrupt Verizon? Do you understand what you're saying? Verizon's had 30+% uptake on their FIOS service despite their inflated prices. They're making a hefty profit on the service, along with the high quality video and VOIP they can run over it.

Verizon's other cash cow is wireless, an incredibly strong advantage over its competitors that provides it with a near limitless stream of growing revenue.

Verizon's decision to start and stop deploying FIOS was based entirely on Ivan's competitiveness. The financials are only a piece of the puzzle, and your misrepresentation of them does no one any good.

Morac

join:2001-08-30
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Re: Looks good to me

said by sonicmerlin:

They're deploying FTTH to people that are already in their own territory. And bankrupt Verizon? Do you understand what you're saying? Verizon's had 30+% uptake on their FIOS service despite their inflated prices. They're making a hefty profit on the service, along with the high quality video and VOIP they can run over it.
Let me throw out some numbers. It cost Verizon $750 per customer to wire a neighborhood for FIOS. That figure includes households that did not sign up for FIOS. For households that signed up for FIOS it cost FIOS an additional $600 per household.

In other words, when deploying to an area Verizon spends $1350 to hook up a customer for FIOS and $750 if the customer does not get FIOS.

Verizon was originally offering FIOS without TV for about $40 a month. Take $1350 and device that by $40 and you'll see that originally it was taking about 34 months or about 2 3/4 years for Verizon to recoup that initial loss and that's ignoring any service costs that Verizon pays so the time frame is likely higher. Later Verizon added FIOS TV triple play for about $99 a month, which probably put Verizon deeper in the hole because of service costs it paid to channel providers.

In any case to make things simple, say you have $500,000 and you make a deal that if you pay someone $2000 that person will then pay you $100 a month for at least 2 years. Now say you did this with as many people as you can as fast as you can. Say you do this with 100 people a month. The first month you'd spend $190,000, the 2nd month you'd spend $180,000. In the 3rd month, you'd spend $170,000 and be broke.

It would be the same with Verizon. Yes Verizon makes a lot of money with their Wireless division, but they also put a lot of that money back into their Wireless service which is why it's so good.
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nasadude

join:2001-10-05
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said by tiger72:

Honestly, I think this is the best of both worlds in my book....


you have a crappy book. we now have proof positive that the U.S. broadband market will never be competitive unless and until corporate control of government is ended.

if we can't get line sharing out of the FCC with the Presidency, congress and the FCC all controlled by democrats, I don't see it ever happening. If line sharing is not mandated, the U.S. broadband market will continue to be controlled by one large cableco and one large telco in their respective non-compete areas.

I'm glad I have FIOS, because it looks like a lot of areas are never going to see FTTH.
FredIsDead

join:2010-02-24
San Antonio, TX

Re: Looks good to me

said by nasadude:

said by tiger72:

Honestly, I think this is the best of both worlds in my book....


you have a crappy book. we now have proof positive that the U.S. broadband market will never be competitive unless and until corporate control of government is ended.

if we can't get line sharing out of the FCC with the Presidency, congress and the FCC all controlled by democrats, I don't see it ever happening. If line sharing is not mandated, the U.S. broadband market will continue to be controlled by one large cableco and one large telco in their respective non-compete areas.

I'm glad I have FIOS, because it looks like a lot of areas are never going to see FTTH.
Which lines would be shared? Legacy phone copper? Cable DOCSIS? Fiber?

How high up in the network would it be shared?

It isn't clear to me anymore what line sharing means in the current network topologies, where most of the costs are in the middle/last mile and not in the core.
jus10

join:2009-08-04
Sterling, VA
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Re: Looks good to me

I liked the old DSL model before the FCC removed line-sharing rules. Make a national initiative to run fiber to everyone's door. Then the person can choose the ISP/TV/Phone provider of their choice.

The evil incompetent incumbents don't like that though.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
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said by FredIsDead:

said by nasadude:

said by tiger72:

Honestly, I think this is the best of both worlds in my book....


you have a crappy book. we now have proof positive that the U.S. broadband market will never be competitive unless and until corporate control of government is ended.

if we can't get line sharing out of the FCC with the Presidency, congress and the FCC all controlled by democrats, I don't see it ever happening. If line sharing is not mandated, the U.S. broadband market will continue to be controlled by one large cableco and one large telco in their respective non-compete areas.

I'm glad I have FIOS, because it looks like a lot of areas are never going to see FTTH.
Which lines would be shared? Legacy phone copper? Cable DOCSIS? Fiber?

How high up in the network would it be shared?

It isn't clear to me anymore what line sharing means in the current network topologies, where most of the costs are in the middle/last mile and not in the core.
All of them would be shared. It's been done in other countries and can be done here. Mandate it and fine those who don't comply or try to delay, and you will see the work done.
mikesm559

join:2003-11-05
Fresno, CA
I think you will find that the regulatory structure they want to impose is not supported by the law. One is highly regulated and the other isn't. I think they will see that by the time they actually deal with what the rules say they will have a problem on their hands. There is a reason this wasn't tried before.

They are also reversing the FCC's prior argument they won at the Supreme Court and are quoting Scalia's DISSENT as the right way to go.

Notice the only carrier that said anything nice was Comcast? Guess who has a merger review in front of the FCC? Right, Comcast.

The carriers will dump all over these guys. And the consumer groups will end up being disappointed that the approach they are taking will not actually work.
Eldorados

join:2005-11-25
said by tiger72:

Just because many people are too stupid to switch ISPs
Too stupid to switch ISPs?

Maybe you are too stupid to realize that many don't have any ISP to switch to

tiger72
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2 edits

Re: Looks good to me

said by Eldorados:

said by tiger72:

Just because many people are too stupid to switch ISPs
Too stupid to switch ISPs?

Maybe you are too stupid to realize that many don't have any ISP to switch to
This thread isn't about Canada. Go find another.
You see, in America, there are alternatives. They may not be as fast as FIOS, or as cheap as naked basic-DSL. But they do exist. Wireless ISPs abound, satellite is available for all, and if all else fails, Verizon has a nationwide 3g network.

A lot of people dismiss satellite, clear, and wifi, but they are all alternatives if you really think your DSL/CableCo is that unfair and horrible.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara
Eldorados

join:2005-11-25

Re: Looks good to me

Seriously, pi$$ off.. I can comment in here if I like

You see, even in your country of America there are many areas that do not have competition and are lucky if they have 2 choices, maybe you should start reading the comments of others? As I have been reading here for years, different country, exact same problems

People want reliable and fast service for a reasonable price.

Read that line again and make note of these words - RELIABLE, FAST, REASONABLE PRICE. Your alternatives have none of these and as such will not be considered by majority. Does that make them stupid? Maybe by your ignorant and short sighted terms, but in reality no it doesn't.

Hey you can go buy that brand new car for $$$ to drive to work, or you can buy this piece of crap that will likely break down on you 50% of the time and take 5x as long to get you there. Now wouldn't it be nice if there were more than 1 or 2 options of brand new cars to choose from but won't cost me an arm and a leg? Hmm...

So again, what are you going to do when you want this type of service and no one else provides it but either the local cable or phone company? (if your lucky you have both) Right, you take it up the a$$ and pay it

And FYI, I have those same 'options' here in Canada, but they are not a viable solution for what I require - I work from home often and need a FAST, RELIABLE connection for VPN. I have cable, but the DSL service that they offer is horrible and would hinder my work, so I have *1* choice.

What happens in the US affects us as our CRTC is even more spineless than your FCC
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
Being you live in the same city as me tiger, I will make the assumption that you are either an idiot or have another motive of some sort. There are only 2 "options" here (Charter or AT&T) and neither really compete with each other, they simply coexist. When companies do that, there really is no benefit to the consumer or the society they exist in.

The other options, aren't truly high speed and by your view dialup is even a viable future proof option.
Stumbles

join:2002-12-17
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Re: Looks good to me

And that in my view is the problem. The likes of AT&T, Charter and the other big boys have lobbied hard and long to get their little monopolies all in the name of spurring competition. I don't know for sure, but it seems to me in most markets in this country (US) you really only have two choices.

In my view with such limited choices there is really no reason for either carrier to be competitive. I mean why bother when you know a potential customer has only one alternative which may not be all that better because the alternative has the same mindset.

tiger72
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said by Skippy25:

Being you live in the same city as me tiger, I will make the assumption that you are either an idiot or have another motive of some sort. There are only 2 "options" here (Charter or AT&T) and neither really compete with each other, they simply coexist. When companies do that, there really is no benefit to the consumer or the society they exist in.

The other options, aren't truly high speed and by your view dialup is even a viable future proof option.
There are local WISPs that provide internet access. There's satellite. There's cellular.

I have dry-loop DSL. Can't even get uverse because the power outlets in my building aren't grounded.

That said, it's sufficient for my needs, and I download a LOT of content from usenet. Not as fast as my old 15mbps Roadrunner connection, but it's more stable than Charter is around here and a HELLUVA lot cheaper. That's what I value.

But who knows, when Clear comes to town I might be switching to them.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara

Romney2012
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»news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-20004···1_3-0-20
iansltx

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Links?

What do those Title II sections say?

Karl Bode
News Guy
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kudos:30

Re: Links?

Here you go:

»www.fcc.gov/Reports/1934new.pdf
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

Re: Links?

I'm still disappointed that Genachowski has refused to implement line sharing. He's not at the whim of Congress like he is with the NBPlan. He can do whatever he likes within the power allocated to his agency. And yet he still cowers in fear. Sigh... following this industry really drains you of all positive emotions.

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
Section 201 : Selling services
Section 202 : Nondiscrimination (part of "common carrier" concept) - this will be the important one for network neutrality.
Section 208 : Complaints to Commission
Section 222 : "PRIVACY OF CUSTOMER INFORMATION"
Section 254 : "UNIVERSAL SERVICE"
Section 255 : "ACCESS BY PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES"

quote:
SEC. 202. [47 U.S.C. 202] DISCRIMINATION AND PREFERENCES.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any common carrier to make any unjust or unreasonable discrimination in charges, practices, classifications, regulations, facilities, or services for or in connection with like communication service, directly or indirectly, by any means or device, or to make or give any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to any particular person, class of persons, or locality, or to subject any particular person, class of persons, or locality to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage.

(b) Charges or services, whenever referred to in this Act, include charges for, or services in connection with, the use of common carrier lines of communication, whether derived from wire or radio facilities, in chain broadcasting or incidental to radio communication of any kind.

(c) Any carrier who knowingly violates the provisions of this section shall forfeit to the United States the sum of $6,000 for each such offense and $300 for each and every day of the continuance of such offense.

Romney2012
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FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···48A1.pdf
This proposal is disappointing and deeply concerns us. It is neither a light-touch approach nor a third way. Instead, it is a stark departure from the long-established bipartisan framework for addressing broadband regulation that has led to billions in investment and untold consumer opportunities.

After several government investigations, no evidence of systemic failure in the broadband market has been presented to justify this new, more onerous regulatory regime. Additionally, without a specific mandate from Congress, the appellate courts are likely to hand the Commission another stinging rebuke for attempting to shatter the boundaries of its statutory authority.

Fundamentally, this dramatic step to regulate the Internet is unnecessary. The recent Comcast decision leaves the Commission with ample authority to implement the most important portions of the National Broadband Plan, should it choose to do so.
McDowell also chose to reply to the 2 Dem congresscritters that pushed the FCC in to reclassification. It is worth a read:
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···34A1.pdf

Basically the reclassification plans are nothing but more Democratic overreaching big government regulation of the economy. Ultimately that will slow growth of the economy and lead to more unemployment and the driving of more jobs overseas.
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tdouglas22

join:2001-09-25
Memphis, TN

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

said by Romney2012:

»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···48A1.pdf
This proposal is disappointing and deeply concerns us. It is neither a light-touch approach nor a third way. Instead, it is a stark departure from the long-established bipartisan framework for addressing broadband regulation that has led to billions in investment and untold consumer opportunities.

After several government investigations, no evidence of systemic failure in the broadband market has been presented to justify this new, more onerous regulatory regime. Additionally, without a specific mandate from Congress, the appellate courts are likely to hand the Commission another stinging rebuke for attempting to shatter the boundaries of its statutory authority.

Fundamentally, this dramatic step to regulate the Internet is unnecessary. The recent Comcast decision leaves the Commission with ample authority to implement the most important portions of the National Broadband Plan, should it choose to do so.
McDowell also chose to reply to the 2 Dem congress-critters that pushed the FCC in to reclassification. It is worth a read:
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···34A1.pdf

Basically the reclassification plans are nothing but more Democratic overreaching big government regulation of the economy. Ultimately that will slow growth of the economy and lead to more unemployment and the driving of more jobs overseas.
Spoken like another doomsday speaker. Please get off of the "big government" garbage. It's gotten very tired at this point.

BillRoland
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Ocala, FL
kudos:2

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

said by tdouglas22:

Spoken like another doomsday speaker. Please get off of the "big government" garbage. It's gotten very tired at this point.
Nevertheless, McDowell is probably right, the appellate courts are very likely to cut the FCC to pieces yet again if it comes to that.
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sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

said by BillRoland:

said by tdouglas22:

Spoken like another doomsday speaker. Please get off of the "big government" garbage. It's gotten very tired at this point.
Nevertheless, McDowell is probably right, the appellate courts are very likely to cut the FCC to pieces yet again if it comes to that.
Based on what? He has the authority to do whatever he wants. I'm not exactly an expert on US law, but so far I haven't read anything contradicting that point.

BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:2

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

said by sonicmerlin:

said by BillRoland:

said by tdouglas22:

Spoken like another doomsday speaker. Please get off of the "big government" garbage. It's gotten very tired at this point.
Nevertheless, McDowell is probably right, the appellate courts are very likely to cut the FCC to pieces yet again if it comes to that.
Based on what? He has the authority to do whatever he wants. I'm not exactly an expert on US law, but so far I haven't read anything contradicting that point.
Based on the fact that the courts have ruled against the FCC in the past. He does not have "the authority to do whatever he wants," he has the authority to do whatever he wants within the context of the statutes. That's whats been challenged, that's what McDowell is saying will be the issue yet again, and precedent suggests he's correct, should a challenge arise. And a challenge will certainly arise as soon as the FCC tries to do something an ISP doesn't like.
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."
Beyond AM. Beyond FM. XM
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

Being the FCC has the authority to reclassify them any way they feel needed, I think he is well within his rights to do just this.

It is very disappointing however, that line sharing is not part of it because that is really the only way to get competition into the markets and that is 98% of the problem to begin with.
WhatNow
Premium
join:2009-05-06
Charlotte, NC

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

If you have an extra room can I move in at section 8 rates for setting the rent. If they have to share and that lowers the profit they will just slow deployment.

If the government want fiber to every household then raise taxes to build it and pay for it. Otherwise you are taking someelses property. The feeling in the ISPs are the same feelings most Americans have when they do their taxes.

If you want fiber so bad then knock on doors in your area and get enough customers and the money to build a system. You can connect to the system.

Supervisor
Premium
join:2006-03-26
Marysville, PA

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

Bad analogy. Big telco & cable ISPs have a monopoly on last mile loops to customers. You don't have a monopoly on extra rooms. Big difference.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
quote:
Ultimately that will slow growth of the economy and lead to more unemployment and the driving of more jobs overseas.
But I thought the internet wasn't that important and had no effect on the economy.

If it's as important as you say it is we had better make it a right of every citizen to have access to broadband.
kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL
Oh brother..... Like the past few years hasn't taught us anything about what can happen when there is a complete lack of oversight of critical sectors.

IMO the major ISP's got off pretty lightly, they won't have to open their lines to competition and the status quo will largely remain the same.

morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

said by kaila:

what can happen when there is a complete lack of oversight of critical sectors.
high broadband cost and low speeds. I think we're paying the price.

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

yeah. It's not like physics plays a role in that.

Nope.
Not at all.

Physics doesn't exist.

racer9876
Defender Of The Universe
Premium
join:2000-07-03
Rosamond, CA

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

Are you referring line noise and attenuation over copper? Or are you referring to the large expanse of land that is the continental United States?

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US

Re: FCC's McDowell & Baker have their say on new policy

said by racer9876:

Are you referring line noise and attenuation over copper? Or are you referring to the large expanse of land that is the continental United States?
Actually, both.
said by Skippy25:

said by tiger72:

yeah. It's not like greed plays a role in that.

Nope.
Not at all.

greed doesn't exist.
There I fixed that for you.
Not exactly. Just because you don't understand physics, doesn't mean it doesn't play a role in business decisions.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

2 edits
said by tiger72:

yeah. It's not like greed plays a role in that.

Nope.
Not at all.

greed doesn't exist.
There I fixed that for you.

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
So according to McDowell and Baker there has been "no evidence of systemic failure in the broadband market"??? What planet are they on?

Most broadband customers in the US have only one or two providers available - the local telco and the local cableco. This is a "natural monopoly" in economics terms, and as such it needs regulation. Further, these local monopolies or duopolies charge high prices, impose low caps and fail to improve the last mile. And recently they are threatening traffic discrimination, practicing traffic discrimination in documented cases, and actively obstructing competition (even suing to prevent municipal broadband plans).

This is a classic picture of market failure to the detriment of the public. Stopping the abuses won't reduce demand for internet, nor will it make investments less profitable (no one is proposing to cap rates charged).

camaro92
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 edit

Crap crap and more crap

The only 2 reg.'s with teeth that would directly impact us ie line sharing, and price caps were probably striped faster than a $2 prostitute,can't wait for price hike season thank you FCC for looking out for the consumer.

also i am trying to see both sides to the whole investment issue and i don't see a problem, plain and simple if your company can't provide minimal amount of service to a customer then you should be forced to upgrade/invest instead of waiting around and watching your network get saturated then wait for consumer complaints,bad press,then finally say oh maybe i need to invest to keep up with demand.

Tron4Net

join:2010-01-14
Corrales, NM

Re: Crap crap and more crap

Your so right! That's my situation right now, line-sharing needs to be implemented!! That will create the "domino effect" the people need, it will lower prices and create more competition.

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1

Re: Crap crap and more crap

how will it lower prices? Who do you think sets the wholesale price?

camaro92
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA

Re: Crap crap and more crap

Real Competition

toddbs98

join:2000-07-08
North Little Rock, AR

More of the same.

Good to see the Government maintain the status quo thus stifling innovation and competition. Who needs all that free market stuff, maintaining the monopolies is the American way.
--
Patriots always speak of dying for their country never killing for it. Bertrand Russell
Angrychair

join:2000-09-20
Jacksonville, FL

Re: More of the same.

Rattle off enough cliches in one post and you might just string together a cognizant thought. Better luck next time.

PhoenixDown
-- Wants FIOS
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1

Will the FCC being able to carry through?

Comcast took the FCC to court and whooped them last time, what makes anyone thing they can't do it again under these new rules?
--
~ Insert a Funny Sig Here ~

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo

join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

The Government can do it better - Trust us...

That seems to be the motto nowadays. No proof is offered whatsoever, in fact, we have plenty of proof indicating otherwise, but the answer to everything nowadays is "The Government".

Scary, if you ask me.
deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
Baton Rouge, LA

Lafayette Louisiana

Broadband competition is the only thing that will bring about meaningful change that is good for consumers.

Contrary to what the incumbets say, they will compete if they have to. Lafayette Louisiana has some of the lowest broadband prices and most diverse broadband offerings in the country. What's different? They have a 3rd player with LUS.
caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

Craig the quote machine Moffett strikes again.

»www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6···20100506

Reports of Genachowski's plans to seek a "third way" created uncertainty, Bernstein Research analyst Craig Moffett said in a note published late on Wednesday.

"Markets abhor uncertainty," he wrote. "Today we got uncertainty in spades."
--
Politicians and diapers have one thing in common. They should both be changed regularly, and for the same reason.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

I found a real picture of the FCC Commissioners


the Public side of the FCC.
Crap in crap out. The only thing worse then the FCC is not having one at all.
InfinityDev

join:2005-06-30
USA

big step forward

This is a big step forward for the US.

With luck, down the road, they will find prices and speeds the same, and then take a next step.
gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL

Really??

I'm trying to figure out how many of the line sharing lovers here, actually own any of the lines you would be forced to "share"? If you even understand how a network "works" or that there isn't an infinate resource to even share? Who do you think (ultimately) is going to be paying for the network upgrades required to have reliable service afterwards..? YOU will be.

The only way free enterprise works is keeping it free...

But by all means go build yourself a brand new home. I would be in favor of renting it out for you and make you coexist with the tenants. Same thing...
Sammer

join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA

Re: Really??

said by gunther_01:

The only way free enterprise works is keeping it free...
Unfortunately the non-competitive oligopolies being discussed here are not a free market! Besides it's these huge incumbents that fight every step of the way including buying corrupt politicians anyone besides one of the them building a substantial new network. How would you like it if someone tried to bankrupt you simply because you decided to build a new home?
gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL

Re: Really??

I'm not sure how you can say it's not a free market. Every one of these large companies bought and paid for their infrastructure. Then along comes someone who can't afford to do the same thing and wants a piece of it and it's OK... Just ride on my back so you can do what I did in the first place? Sorry buddy, build your own! Invest your own or someone elses, but don't come here and knock on my "new home"s door.. It's my home, and it's my castle.. So stay away from it like you would a real one, Like trespassing, it's owned property that isn't yours.

I have built a network. I run a network, and I do it in an area with Telco, and Cable providers have services. Your theories WOULD bankrupt ME, and leave the telco's still here to have crappy service for my rural customers. Customers mind you who had NO options but satellite and Air cards, Both of which don't work very well here. Customers who would be left with less choices if your line sharing passes, because guess what, it's a small profit area for anyone.

Line sharing will not aid in broadband deployment FACT. It WILL lessen anyones willingness to build infrastructure and invest in that infrastructure because of the misuse of that same infrastructure and overloading.. It's one thing to do that with core systems, but once you get to last mile interconnects you just trashed the whole thing. You try that with wireless (what I use) and EVERYBODYs connection is crap. It's hard enough to manage MY network, then you want me to not be able to manage the other guy on it as well?? Throw in a little "Net neutrality" and it's OVER. I won't want my name on it anymore, because the network is junk.

It will no longer be a free market, because it is no longer "free". It's now a government ran and mandated cluster F#$k.. Do you really know what is going to happen if that passes? I'm pretty skeptical that you do sorry to say. Every one is entitled to an opinion, but if you don't run a network, if you have no investment in one, your just a consumer with your hand out wanting something. And there is a HUGE difference.
mikesm559

join:2003-11-05
Fresno, CA

You guys are missing something...

There is a lot of confusion here about this "reclassification decision". The FCC can't do whatever they want, not even if it's generally within the bounds of the statutes. They cannot act in "arbitrary and capricious" ways. That means making decisions based on their own predilections and not on data.

Part of why the FCC has lost a lot of suits is because they don't do a good job of showing the rationale behind their decision making is not arbitrary - that is, based on facts.

The FCC can make a point, that the market isn't competitive enough to discipline bad behavior, therefore you need regulation to unbundle or assure neutral access. The problem with this argument is that if you have previously in official reports concluded the markets are competitive, you can't just change that conclusion because he helps you justify imposing a particular rule. The courts expect the underlying justification to be consistent with other facts you have advanced in other cases.

This is why the FCC screws up. Julius got a ton of heat from people because of his deciding not to reclassify earlier in the week (and the data in the broadband plan supported that view - funny how that worked). So then he changes his mind and comes up with this "3rd way" crap. But I doubt he's laid the groundwork to justify any of this, because this was a snap decision based on people saying bad things about him.

This is a set up for litigation asserting the FCC is being arbitrary and capricious. It's like the LA police and OJ - they framed a guilty man. And when you frame someone, the courts tend not to like that.

That is what's going on here. I am no fan of the monopolists, but this guy sucks at his job. He hasn't laid the proper framework for dealing with this, and we'll all pay because of it.
bdon78
I didn't do it

join:2009-05-18
Decatur, GA

Confusion

The whole thing is scary. Adopting something that was created years ago?

Does anyone actually think that Genachowski knows what he is doing? If he did, he would have to borrow from something that was never intended to provide regulation to the internet.

I'm no super capitalist, but government regulation is NOT the way to promote competition.. am I crazy for thinking that?

Supervisor
Premium
join:2006-03-26
Marysville, PA

Re: Confusion

said by bdon78:

.. am I crazy for thinking that?
Yes.

herehear

@wcc.net
I concur, scary to say the least.
My partners and I have spent a vast amount of money rolling out a FTTH EPON network in our somewhat rural community. This is private investment and we have several more years of debt to service. Our triple play product has been well received by our community even-though we have a well entrenched Cable TV provider, a large ILEC w/DSL, a handful of wireless providers operating in licensed and unlicensed frequency spectrum and AT&T's 3G as well as Sprint 3G offerings. Lets not forget all the satellite providers, both data and video.
The competitive model already exist with the exception of the long-haul company's. That's where the real problem exists. Let the last mile provider duke it out via free enterprise. You will end up with a better product to the end user, better price's and better service.
Our business strategy is to roll out more FTTH EPON to our surrounding communities without government assistance. This type of government involvement just discouraged our banking partners from going forward with the our next build-out. Hopefully this is indeed a smokescreen to cover-up FCC inadequacy. The Broadband Stimulus Plan is a joke. It has already been used to payback political favor and makes very little sense in a free market nation.
Without freedom, little else matters.
megarock

join:2001-06-28
Catawissa, MO

AT&T's top lobbyist Jim Cicconi is

"apparently not doing a very good job". Kinda like AT & T's network.

linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
Reviews:
·Cass Communicati..
·CenturyLink

I don't know....

Any one who thinks people are stupid for not changing ISPs is living in a fantasy world.

AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, Cox. Sprint aren't in my neighborhood

Why?

Because I live in an average small town in rural America. Not one of these national giants will spend one cent in rural America and no one, not the FCC or US Congress can force them.

There is no competition in rural America. It is where one telco and one cable company dominate the area with outdated sub-standard equipment; offer the slowest broadband speeds at the highest price; and constantly deny complaints by telling the customer it the fault is in their PC. That was the mantra 15 years ago when a 28.8 modem was considered fast.

I could write a book about the games these companies play and the raping of rural America. We are supposed to believe the PR that tells is 512 down is high speed broadband when we read that 50Mbps is already deployed in most cities of size. Our choices are usually Bad and Worse and the companies are run by liars and thieves. I can't imagine what 5 Mbps looks like let alone 50!

I've been playing the rural game for 18 years during which time I watched the giants run roughshod over state governments while they fill the pockets of congress - just so they can have free reign. They do not even bother to meet contractual obligations anywhere in rural America.

But once in every blue moon you get lucky and find a small telco or ISP that not only makes an honest attempt to meet customer expectations, they actually do. And once in a while you find a giant that does too. Sadly it is the exception and not the rule.

. .
--
Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside

herehear

@wcc.net

Re: I don't know....

To surrender free enterprise to the government is the death of freedom.

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