 Z80APremium join:2009-11-23 | Comcast should have left the wrist slapping alone Very short term thinking on their part. | |
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 |  | | Re: Comcast should have left the wrist slapping alone Now you see why other ISPs DIDN'T want Comcast to take the FCC to court. | |
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 |  |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Comcast should have left the wrist slapping alone said by pandora:said by Michael C:Now you see why other ISPs DIDN'T want Comcast to take the FCC to court. I never understood why Comcast pushed it, all they had was the slightest slap on the wrist. Taking it to court seemed like an extreme overreaction. I can't wait to see what the new regulatory taxes will be once the courts affirm the FCC's authority to do this. You mean in 10 years? | |
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 |  |  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
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| Re: Comcast should have left the wrist slapping alone said by BF69:You mean in 10 years? In 10 years the 15 year phase in plan will begin. Which means they can always extend it. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! the road to hell is paved with good intentions. this a plain power grab to force the net to be more like cable tv. these morons have no idea what the hell they are doing.. -- calling a illegal alien undocumented is like calling a drug dealer a undocumented pharmacist | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by i1me2ao:the road to hell is paved with good intentions. this a plain power grab to force the net to be more like cable tv. these morons have no idea what the hell they are doing.. Yeah no kidding. Better leave it up to AT&T and Comcast to make sure we find the path to enlightenment. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by jester121:said by Mr Matt:  All those persons opposing regulation of ISP's should be shipped off to Somalia for a month so that they can experience life without government regulators meddling in their affairs. Yeah, because that is the main thing causing problems in Somalia. Yep. Exactly. Somalia is an example of what happens when the human species has no one babysitting it. Their lack of government is easily Somalia's biggest problem. | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! Somalia is a bad example in relation to this. Somalia is example of a failed State and no mater what happens we could all agree that the Internet will not fail. I have little faith in the FCC doing the right thing and have even less faith in ISPs either. There should be Internet legal authority and the authority should be us! | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by RiverMerger:Somalia is a bad example in relation to this. Somalia is example of a failed State and no mater what happens we could all agree that the Internet will not fail. Somalia as a failed state is actually a perfect example.
Consider CB radio. We could say it is the result of a "failed state" because there are regulations governing it, but they go entirely unenforced.
The FCC ceded its authority, and it is today an "anything goes" cesspool where whoever has the largest amplifier, or the most "funny channels" installed in their radio gets the most use out of it. People using FM, sending carrier and destroying the use of channels for others. Intentionally talking skip, using the service for something it was explicitly not intended for.
11 meter was a junky band anyway. Not good for much. That's why ARS gave it away to be used as a less-regulated service. But, it's become an entirely unregulated service due to the FCC making no attempt to enforce the rules.
For all intents and purposes, that is a "failed state" scenario. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! Maybe you didn't read my post why don't you try one more time. | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH: Were they to gain control of the Internet - a system that was built to defy control - you can rest assured they will render the Internet useless, if allowed. You just don't get it, and I doubt you ever will. | |
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 |  |  |  GNHTesla RecoiledPremium join:1999-12-20 Arlington, TX Reviews:
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! So, you have an opinion... Look, I could not care less what you think. People like you depend on socialistic governments, people like me do not. We do not need the type of twisted, control-minded, entitlement oriented "government," which sadly this country is forced to deal with at this point in time. Government has no business regulating the Internet. Only fools are comfortable with the current state of government devolution. Those fools have no chance of survival. -- "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket..." -- Hussein Obama | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH: People like you depend on socialistic governments, people like me do not. As you post to a forum using a technology developed through socialized markets (government-sponsored DARPA development of TCP/IP).
Delivered through rights or way and easements without which, a private ISP would find it impossible to negotiate with every property owner between them and you.
Probably from the comfort of a home built to construction codes and zoning restrictions, altering what willing buyers and sellers would freely negotiate within a "market." (Reducing your caveat emptor when buying or renting. And, eliminating your responsibility to purchase enough property to protect yourself from your neighbor's perfect property right to dispose of their property how they wish, such as a late-night biker bar.).
Perhaps snacking on some food without having to worry (much) about how it was made -- thanks to food and drug quality laws (again, altering what a "free market" of willing buyers and sellers would produce).
After a nice, steamy poo... plopped into water delivered to your home with an ease that wouldn't have existed if left to a "market." Swept away to a treatment facility which, thanks to the zoning laws mentioned above (preventing your neighbor from exercising their perfect property right to compete in that space -- to the benefit of your own property interest.). | |
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1 edit | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! I don't see cable, copper, or fiber as the future. Wireless will drive the Internet within 10 years, max. The capital barriers will melt, and people will control the Internet, not governments.
SO many opinions...
[edit] Worth adding. You're off-topic, for the most part. My disdain and distrust of government has nothing to do with proper functions of the state. And, those issues are discussed elsewhere. Keep it on topic.
-- "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket..." -- Hussein Obama | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH:Wireless will drive the Internet within 10 years, max. A public resource just as finite as easements and rights of way. Requiring social intervention in the use of those frequencies to prevent them from degenerating into the free-market of CB radio.
said by GNH:You're off-topic, for the most part. My disdain and distrust of government has nothing to do with proper functions of the state. You were the one who accused others of depending on socialism, unlike you. You invited someone to point out a few of the many examples of how you depend on socialized markets too. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  GNHTesla RecoiledPremium join:1999-12-20 Arlington, TX | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! ibid. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! Dude... just shut up already. You're talking point has been rendered useless and pointless. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! I laughed so hard when he said "YOU depend on socialistic government! Not me nya nya nya!" | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  GNHTesla RecoiledPremium join:1999-12-20 Arlington, TX Reviews:
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! Good grief, you people have no clue. Neither one of you know me, you have zero intelligence regarding how much I do or do not depend on "government." I've found far too many people, just like you two, that haven't lived long enough to even develop an informed opinion on the negatives associated with unnecessary government regulation. Both of you can squirt milk out of your nose and laugh away. Makes no difference to me, whatsoever. I would expect you two to do just that, because that kind of behavior goes hand-in-hand with your level of education.
The government has ZERO business regulating the Internet, and they will not be successful in their efforts. So, deal with it. -- "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket..." -- Hussein Obama | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH:The government has ZERO business regulating the Internet, ... Not even fraud? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  GNHTesla RecoiledPremium join:1999-12-20 Arlington, TX 1 edit | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! That's not regulation, it's law enforcement.
[edit] But, I understand you can't see the subtlety. | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH:That's not regulation, it's law enforcement. [edit] But, I understand you can't see the subtlety. (Chuckle.). Regulation is always through through law.
Now we're just debating what is valid "law enforcement." Or, what behaviors are characteristic of "fraud."
The camel's nose is now inside the tent and you have to deal with subtleties that you wish didn't exist. Like, whether spam is fraud. Or, spam with fake SMTP headers.
Or, if an ISP advertises a speed that is rarely obtained (and thus the industry would benefit from the equivalent of nutritional labeling, common metrics presented in a common format).
Or, if an ISP has become a monopoly through the use of public rights of way and easements. (Monopolies are discouraged by our system of capitalism because they share characteristics of fraud).
It's easy to say "the government shouldn't regulate...." But, what you really mean is they shouldn't regulate it to a level you happen to disagree with. And, you're probably unable to articulate what that level is.
Thus, it's easier to just make a ridiculous blanket assertion "the government shouldn't regulate..." and hope nobody asks any questions. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  PaladinSage of the light join:2001-08-17 Chester, IL | So, are you saying that you trust the Baby Bells to not restrict your flow of information? I hope you don't live in an area where that's the only choice. The government is stepping in here so that companies like AT&T and Verizon don't do what you fear the government is going to do. I'd say that regulating the INTERNET is a pretty important function of public infrastructure given that the Internet was developed as a public network of networks. If anyone is going to take us down the road of Socialism here it is the Bell Monopolies. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
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| said by GNH:I don't see cable, copper, or fiber as the future. Wireless will drive the Internet within 10 years, max. Another thing we need Government for. Imagine the chaos of unregulated spectrum. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by KrK:said by GNH:I don't see cable, copper, or fiber as the future. Wireless will drive the Internet within 10 years, max. Another thing we need Government for. Imagine the chaos of unregulated spectrum. All you have to do is try to use a CB radio to find out what that would be like.
- People talking over each other, often intentionally just to disrupt others. - Not respecting the five-minute rule (limit on conversations). - Using linear amplifiers with 1000 watts (when CB is limited to 4-12 watts). - Intentionally trying to talk further than 155 miles (SSB skip) in violation of Rule 13(9). - Adding extra channels to illegally talk on the "funny frequencies" (between CB's 11-meter band, and amateur's 10-meter).
CB radio is like the Somalia of radio spectrum. If wireless broadband were left to the "free market" it would turn out exactly the same. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  GNHTesla RecoiledPremium join:1999-12-20 Arlington, TX | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! You know very little. You can't compare citizens band to an IP network. That's idiotic. | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH:You know very little. You can't compare citizens band to an IP network. That's idiotic. Why?
Why should we assume that one user of broadband wireless wouldn't use a high-power amplifier to drown out competing users?
Or, that someone who wishes to use that spectrum for other purposes (like the way CB users wander into unlicensed spectrum between 10 and 11 meters, and even show up on licensed 10-meter spectrum)? | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! You've got to be kidding... You need to give more thought to the technology; both AM and TCP/IP over Wifi. You're comparing apples to sirloin. -- "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket..." -- Hussein Obama | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by GNH:You've got to be kidding... You need to give more thought to the technology; both AM and TCP/IP over Wifi. You're comparing apples to sirloin. What are you talking about? You're saying a 1000 watt level of power wouldn't interfere with neighbors using 1 watt of power?
Or, that someone broadcasting FM voice wouldn't interfere with multiple wifi channels? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  JPLPremium join:2007-04-04 Downingtown, PA kudos:1 | said by amigo_boy:said by GNH: People like you depend on socialistic governments, people like me do not. As you post to a forum using a technology developed through socialized markets (government-sponsored DARPA development of TCP/IP). Delivered through rights or way and easements without which, a private ISP would find it impossible to negotiate with every property owner between them and you. Probably from the comfort of a home built to construction codes and zoning restrictions, altering what willing buyers and sellers would freely negotiate within a "market." (Reducing your caveat emptor when buying or renting. And, eliminating your responsibility to purchase enough property to protect yourself from your neighbor's perfect property right to dispose of their property how they wish, such as a late-night biker bar.). Perhaps snacking on some food without having to worry (much) about how it was made -- thanks to food and drug quality laws (again, altering what a "free market" of willing buyers and sellers would produce). After a nice, steamy poo... plopped into water delivered to your home with an ease that wouldn't have existed if left to a "market." Swept away to a treatment facility which, thanks to the zoning laws mentioned above (preventing your neighbor from exercising their perfect property right to compete in that space -- to the benefit of your own property interest.). Using government for R&D type activities makes sense in many cases (space race in the 60's, e.g.). But make no mistake - it's private enterprise that makes these technologies a reality. THIS, btw, is why this move by the FCC is idiotic:
»www.businessweek.com/technology/···1009.htm
It's going to slam the economy. Investment by private industries will start to dry up if companies aren't allowed to regulate what they can charge for usage of their system. | |
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| Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by JPL: But make no mistake - it's private enterprise that makes these technologies a reality. I would say that, in our system of "socialized capitalism," it's a marriage of public and private interests which make most things possible.
If you're saying it could be too excessive in either direction, I agree. But, I don't think it's an either/or proposition.
I do think it's good to err on both sides over time. Less regulation spurs creativity. But, (as we recently saw with the financial/derivative meltdown) creativity by itself isn't perfect either.
I'm not a supporter of so-called "net neutrality." Although, I doubt it will be the Armageddon as the less-regulation fanatics insist.
IMO, regulating broadband by the FCC (and the use of net neutrality) misses the primary problem. Broadband is a locally-created monopoly like water, electric, gas providers. It relies upon the use of finite public easements and rights of way. Something not easily used by anyone seeking to "compete."
If it were me, I would regulate broadband providers as a public utility. Not nationalized. But, a recognition that it's not a competitive "market" either. That it needs to operate in the public interest, not merely what the "market will bear." | |
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 |  |  |  |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK Reviews:
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| You depend on a Socialistic Government. If you think your "Free Market" Corporations really want an unfettered free market, think again.
I love how labels like "Socialism...Communism" come out constantly from those who cannot fathom the world they actually live in.
Somalia *is* a free market, after all. -- "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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 |  |  | | What made the internet a good place and intersting in the late 90s and early 2000 was the lack of authority, you could do anything, get anything and trade anything it was a system un touched by goverments, it made it fun cause it was a place we could do as we wished. Now this is going to be taken away and we will be forced to recive content they see fit like in China, and american tv, add will climb on the net to pay for it, this is a BAD IDEA. Also it will give terroist a new plan to cripple the US, people who under stand this will know what i'm talking about. | |
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1 edit | Re: Free Ticket to Somalia! said by wispalord:What made the internet a good place and intersting in the late 90s and early 2000 was the lack of authority, you could do anything, get anything and trade anything it was a system un touched by goverments, it made it fun cause it was a place we could do as we wished. Now this is going to be taken away and we will be forced to recive content they see fit like in China, and american tv, add will climb on the net to pay for it, this is a BAD IDEA. Also it will give terroist a new plan to cripple the US, people who under stand this will know what i'm talking about. LMAO...so you would rather the CORPORATIONS control what you see, do, etc instead of the government? If you think you can do what you want on the internet, just download a copy of "Hurt Locker" and wait for the shakedown letter from the CORPORATE lawyers. As far as 'adds', every little snippet of video has a crappy 30 or 60 second advert tagged to it already...courtesy of the corporations. Corporations keep trying to find ways to snoop and spy on your surfing habits via cookies, spyware, and equipment installed at ISPs to sniff your packets. Go ahead and let them do as they please. Ever see the movie "Minority Report"? 
TERRORISTS???!!!?? Please, shut off the computer and go back to watching Faux News....  | |
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 |  |  |  | | said by wispalord:What made the internet a good place and intersting in the late 90s and early 2000 was the lack of authority, you could do anything, get anything and trade anything it was a system un touched by goverments, it made it fun cause it was a place we could do as we wished. Now this is going to be taken away and we will be forced to recive content they see fit like in China, and american tv, add will climb on the net to pay for it, this is a BAD IDEA. Also it will give terroist a new plan to cripple the US, people who under stand this will know what i'm talking about. Wait what? You are aware the '96 Telecom Act awarded the FCC with huge authority to regulate the broadband industry, and regulate they did, right? It wasn't until the Bush FCC deregulated DSL and Cable providers in 2002 and 2005 that everything went to the trash bin. | |
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 Gami00 join:2010-03-11 Mississauga, ON | they reclassify it as a "right" like they do in some other nations...
than nationalize all broadband mediums, and then allow all corporations to use it in an open competitive market...
i wonder how that'll fly... | |
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 | | hmm Would good is regulating ISPs when the government itself can shut down the internet with a flip of the switch? | |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Ugh
This isn't going to end well. | |
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 |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Ugh said by pnh102:This isn't going to end well. In other words the usual FCC breakdown: Copps on way left foams at mouth. Genachowski & his flunkie Clyburn want more regulation. McDowell & Baker on the right don't want regulation. That is, nothing new here.
It will all end up in the courts. -- Are you happy with your rep in Washington, DC? | |
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 | | Soo.... Just what does this mean for me the consumer? What exactly is Title II?
Does this mean anything for E-rate? | |
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 Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA kudos:1 Reviews:
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| A Win for Big Entertainment? Does this mean that the xxAAs would now be able to focus their efforts, solely on Congress (where they've enjoyed much success) in order to gain the control over ISP's that they've been lusting for?
NV -- In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people. I call it the Crapture. | |
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 |  | | Re: A Win for Big Entertainment? said by Noah Vail:Does this mean that the xxAAs would now be able to focus their efforts, solely on Congress (where they've enjoyed much success) in order to gain the control over ISP's that they've been lusting for? NV yes | |
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 | | who needs regulation.... just let them drill, baby, drill. | |
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 dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ kudos:4 | Competition? I think this is more about getting USF out of cable users! | |
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 TimCo join:2005-01-14 Ronkonkoma, NY | The progressives want more Power And we will loose freedom of speech. Everybody Vote the Progressives out in November. | |
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 BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Alright chicken littles God a bunch of whinning over NOTHING absolutely NOTHING.
Ok they have agree to START disussions the issue. Ok after about 2-3 years of that they might do something which is process that will take 2-3 more years. At which point at&t and other will sue and it will go to court will the loser will appeal until it hits the Supreme Court and they finally rule in the year 2024 when it will be moot anyways. Honestly I'm not worried about shit that may or may not happen in 2024. In 1996 did anyone here think the internet would be what it is today? | |
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 |  | | Re: Alright chicken littles said by BF69:God a bunch of whinning over NOTHING absolutely NOTHING. Ok they have agree to START disussions the issue. Ok after about 2-3 years of that they might do something which is process that will take 2-3 more years. At which point at&t and other will sue and it will go to court will the loser will appeal until it hits the Supreme Court and they finally rule in the year 2024 when it will be moot anyways. Honestly I'm not worried about shit that may or may not happen in 2024. In 1996 did anyone here think the internet would be what it is today? nope its totally fd and getting worse by the minute | |
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 |  |  BF69Premium join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN | Re: Alright chicken littles said by chronoss2009:said by BF69:God a bunch of whinning over NOTHING absolutely NOTHING. Ok they have agree to START disussions the issue. Ok after about 2-3 years of that they might do something which is process that will take 2-3 more years. At which point at&t and other will sue and it will go to court will the loser will appeal until it hits the Supreme Court and they finally rule in the year 2024 when it will be moot anyways. Honestly I'm not worried about shit that may or may not happen in 2024. In 1996 did anyone here think the internet would be what it is today? nope its totally fd and getting worse by the minute Some explanation would help since your post made ZERO sense. | |
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 | | No to confuse the issue but.... All they can monitor is normal tcp/ip traffic, cant some one wrire a new protocal we can install in the pc's encrytept it and let us do what ever we want over that with no eves droping or regulation, the internet is made wires and data packets how we use them is up to US! I mean this dont seem to vastly difficult, Write a protocol, dont let them have the key and let the best hackers write it and make a new underground internet or say fuk it and go back to BBS's | |
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 |  | | Re: No to confuse the issue but.... Just another statist power grab. | |
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 | | Monopolies and Duopolies Rock I just don't understand why people oppose the status quo, left unregulated the 100's of ISP's that populated the United States have been reduced to 5 or 6 monopoly/duopolies who provide concrete service, super bandwidth at affordable prices and with gorilla government off there backs will move to maximum penetration of rural markets. hehehe | |
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