FCC Will Approve Neutrality Rules Tomorrow Copps: These rules stink and may be unenforceable. I'm in! Though consumers still haven't seen them, every indication is that the FCC will pass Genachowski's planned network neutrality rules when the agency votes on them tomorrow. If the rules lacked votes it would have been pulled by now, and a statement by Commissioner Michael Copps unsurprisingly indicates the Democrat has gotten minor changes implemented that make him comfortable enough to vote yes. With Genachowski and Clyburn to also vote yes, it means we'll see the usual 3-2 partisan split. In a statement, Copps insists that while the rules aren't the ones he'd prefer, and may not even be enforceable or enforced, he's going to vote yes on them anyway: I have been fighting for nearly a decade to make sure the Internet doesn't travel down the same road of special interest consolidation and gate-keeper control that other media and telecommunications industries radio, television, film and cable have traveled. What an historic tragedy it would be to let that fate befall the dynamism of the Internet. The item we will vote on tomorrow is not the one I would have crafted. But I believe we have been able to make the current iteration better than what was originally circulated. If vigilantly and vigorously implemented by the Commission and if upheld by the courts it could represent an important milestone in the ongoing struggle to safeguard the awesome opportunity-creating power of the open Internet. Those are some very large caveats, since a consistently "vigilant," pro-consumer FCC is no sure thing, nor is the FCC's legal authority on this issue since Genachowski decided against partially reclassifying broadband ISPs as common carriers under the Communications Act. A little pro-consumer saber rattling followed by Copps voting for bad rules is kind of what he does professionally. As such, his eventual approval is what most people predicted, as is a 3-2 partisan vote. The question now is just how paper thin the final rules will be and whether or not they'll extend to wireless networks -- something AT&T and Verizon fought violently against. Oh, and whether the press will notice just how empty they are. AT&T had the lion's share of input into these final rules, so if you're taking bets on what the final rules will look like, expect potentially unenforceable loophole-riddled ones. You may see some rules focused on requiring transparency in network management, but it seems unlikely the rules will require ISPs to do anything they weren't already doing voluntarily (ex: blocking websites outright). In other words, expect empty provisions with a coat of consumer protection paint and a lot of partisan yelling on both sides that may or may not be tethered to factuality. Update The FCC this afternoon told the press they will not be releasing the rules to the public tomorrow alongside the vote, but will instead be holding on to "tweak" them for several days. In other words, the agency will get to bask in the glory of approving neutrality rules tomorrow, while nobody will actually get to see what got approved until right before the holidays -- at which point they'll be too snookered on egg nog to care. Update 2: The FCC website now has links to the FCC's press release (which contains a small portion of the order) and statements from all the Commissioners.
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 | | Nothing good here Guess we can't wait to see how bad these Rules will be.We already know as consumers we will probably all be screwed. | |
|  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 1 edit | What rules most likely will be Here is what the rules most likely are according to reports:
»news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2010122···betheend
Genachowski's plan is reportedly based on a net neutrality compromise brokered by outgoing House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, a California Democrat. Waxman met behind closed doors with broadband providers, Web-based companies and net neutrality advocates earlier this year, but the compromise fell apart in Congress after committee Republicans declined to endorse it.
Under Genachowski's proposal, the FCC would prohibit broadband providers from blocking customer access to legal Web content. The FCC would also require providers to disclose their network management practices to customers.
The proposal would bar wireline-based broadband providers from "unreasonable discrimination" against Web traffic, but it would not impose that same rule on mobile broadband providers. The FCC would watch mobile broadband providers closely and act if it sees evidence of anticonsumer or anticompetitive conduct, Genachowski said in a speech.
The proposal would not reclassify broadband as regulated, common-carrier service under Title II of the Telecommunications Act, as Genachowski proposed earlier this year. Broadband would stay classified as a lightly regulated information service under Title I.
And the wild card:
With the two Republicans already saying they will vote against the proposal, Genachowski may need to strengthen the proposal to get Copps' support. Who supports the proposal as laid out above:
So who supports the plan?
Several groups have expressed support, including previously mentioned Comcast. Also expressing support in recent days were the Minority Media and Telecom Council, the Communications Workers of America, and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).
The American Cable Association, the Consumer Electronics Association, and Sprint Nextel are also among the groups that have praised the proposal. | |
|  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | FCC's McDowell blasts the new rules already before they are out
In a WSJ Op-ed, FCC's McDowell already criticizes the new rules. Having already seen what will be voted on Tuesday, I assume we can glean some idea what the new rules are from what he doesn't like about them.
»online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142···540.html
Tomorrow morning the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) will mark the winter solstice by taking an unprecedented step to expand government's reach into the Internet by attempting to regulate its inner workings. In doing so, the agency will circumvent Congress and disregard a recent court ruling.
By moving forward with Internet rules anyway, the FCC is not living up to its promise of being "data driven" in its pursuit of mandatesi.e., listening to the needs of the market.
FCC lawyers told the federal court of appeals in Washington, D.C., that their theory gave the agency the authority to regulate broadband rates, even though Congress has never given the FCC the power to regulate the Internet. FCC leaders seemed caught off guard by the extent of the court's April 6 rebuke of the commission's regulatory overreach.
More than 300 members of Congress, including 86 Democrats, contacted the FCC to implore it to stop pursuing Internet regulation and to defer to Capitol Hill.
The FCC's action will spark a billable-hours bonanza as lawyers litigate the meaning of "reasonable" network management for years to come. How's that for regulatory certainty?
To date, the FCC hasn't ruled out increasing its power further by using the phone monopoly laws, directly or indirectly regulating rates someday, or expanding its reach deeper into mobile broadband services. The most expansive regulatory regimes frequently started out modest and innocuous before incrementally growing into heavy-handed behemoths.
On this winter solstice, we will witness jaw-dropping interventionist chutzpah as the FCC bypasses branches of our government in the dogged pursuit of needless and harmful regulation. The darkest day of the year may end up marking the beginning of a long winter's night for Internet freedom.
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|  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy And to see the opposite of FCC Commissioner McDowell's views, we can look at Sen Al Franken's opinion on the new net neutrality rules expected tomorrow:
»www.huffingtonpost.com/al-franke···984.html
Internet service giants like Comcast and Verizon want to offer premium and privileged access to the Internet for corporations who can afford to pay for it.
The good news is that the Federal Communications Commission has the power to issue regulations that protect net neutrality. The bad news is that draft regulations written by FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski don't do that at all. They're worse than nothing.
Although Chairman Genachowski's draft Order has not been made public, early reports make clear that it falls far short of protecting net neutrality.
For many Americans -- particularly those who live in rural areas -- the future of the Internet lies in mobile services. But the draft Order would effectively permit Internet providers to block lawful content, applications, and devices on mobile Internet connections.
Mobile networks like AT&T and Verizon Wireless would be able to shut off your access to content or applications for any reason. For instance, Verizon could prevent you from accessing Google Maps on your phone, forcing you to use their own mapping program, Verizon Navigator, even if it costs money to use and isn't nearly as good.
The FCC has never before explicitly allowed discrimination on the Internet -- but the draft Order takes a step backwards, merely stating that so-called "paid prioritization" (the creation of a "fast lane" for big corporations who can afford to pay for it) is cause for concern.
It sure is -- but that's exactly why the FCC should ban it. Instead, the draft Order would have the effect of actually relaxing restrictions on this kind of discrimination.
That's why net neutrality is the most important free speech issue of our time. And that's why, this Tuesday, when the FCC meets to discuss this badly flawed proposal, I'll be watching. If they approve it as is, I'll be outraged. And you should be, too. Well, Sen Franken, be prepared to be outraged. But also be prepared to be alone in the Senate in your outrage. Most of the Senators and most of the House agree with the compromise Genachowski is putting forward Tuesday. | |
|  |  |  |  |  Host: Road Runner PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
| Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy Most of the Senators and most of the House agree with the compromise Genachowski is putting forward Tuesday. Which means what? Most of them utilize principles easily purchased? Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 1 edit | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by Karl Bode:Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. I think the context is - that except for some marginalized consumer groups and some internet bloggers, most people, including their elected representatives, think that elevating the issue of net neutrality to a critical national priority is vastly overblown. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  DavePR join:2008-06-04 Canyon Country, CA Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy Nothing to see here, move along...
We need gatekeepers and traffic cops. I don't think the FCC can fairly represent two masters. We sure as hell can't trust Comcast. So what do we do? How do we keep Time Warner from putting Netflix out of business? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by DavePR:How do we keep Time Warner from putting Netflix out of business? Who says it is Time Warner (or any other ISP's) responsibility for helping NetFlix succeed? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by jcremin:said by DavePR:How do we keep Time Warner from putting Netflix out of business? Who says it is Time Warner (or any other ISP's) responsibility for helping NetFlix succeed? Nice strawman. Where did "keep Time Warner from putting NetFlix out of business" turn into "helping NetFlix succeed"? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by sonicmerlin:said by jcremin:said by DavePR:How do we keep Time Warner from putting Netflix out of business? Who says it is Time Warner (or any other ISP's) responsibility for helping NetFlix succeed? Nice strawman. Where did "keep Time Warner from putting NetFlix out of business" turn into "helping NetFlix succeed"? Way to miss the point.....
How about this: Go Time Warner. Kill NetFlix.  | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  DavePR join:2008-06-04 Canyon Country, CA Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
| As far as Time-Warner or Comcast or other broadband provider has a monopoly, they should stay content neutral, especially regarding products that compete with those offered by another division of the cable giant. This should be a no-brainer; a condition of allowing content providers to take over the distribution system.
If they don't want to be neutral they should contribute to a fund which provides REAL internet to those people who don't want Bugs Bunny Roadrunner internet lite, or NBC Universal Comcast internet right.
This is the screwiest mess I've seen in a while; this is what happens when you turn public utilities over to the bean counters. Comcast and TWC have no choice but to try to put all competitors down, it's in their DNA.
If this was electricity, would they ration it? Or would they keep building more power plants to satisfy the demand? There is no shortage of bandwidth. It is an artificial shortage necessitated by our full-blown commercial approach to what should be a heavily regulated public utility. As long as the great unwashed thinks there's a scarcity they will give up their rights to the first shiny logo company that offers a "solution".
Genachowski is a lightweight. He can be bent. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by DavePR:There is no shortage of bandwidth. It is an artificial shortage necessitated by our full-blown commercial approach to what should be a heavily regulated public utility. Prove it. Anyone who actually runs an ISP knows that there is always a shortage trying to provide more bandwidth on the last mile.
There may be plenty of bandwidth on the national internet backbones connecting major cities, but every time the increased backbone bandwidth has to be delivered to someone's house, there is a real big cost to that.
And rural areas do have backbone issues. It's expensive and hard to get that bandwidth into many parts of the country. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  TechieZeroTools Are Using MePremium join:2002-01-25 Gibsonton, FL Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| said by DavePR:If they don't want to be neutral they should contribute to a fund which provides REAL internet to those people who don't want Bugs Bunny Roadrunner internet lite, or NBC Universal Comcast internet right.
This is the screwiest mess I've seen in a while; this is what happens when you turn public utilities over to the bean counters. Comcast and TWC have no choice but to try to put all competitors down, it's in their DNA.
If this was electricity, would they ration it? Or would they keep building more power plants to satisfy the demand? There is no shortage of bandwidth. It is an artificial shortage necessitated by our full-blown commercial approach to what should be a heavily regulated public utility. As long as the great unwashed thinks there's a scarcity they will give up their rights to the first shiny logo company that offers a "solution". When did internet turn in to a public utility? Amazingly you don't need internet to heat your house or to eat. It is this kind of entitlement mindset that is ridiculous beyond compare.
The internet is not cheap, this board is filled with people who work hard to keep it running and expect to get paid for it.
As a taxpayer I am not paying for anyone Else's internet and I don't expect anyone to pay for mine --- so guess what? People who work for a profit will be maintaining this glorious invention as they have been for almost 3 decades WITHOUT ISSUE. This is another way for government to put their claws in to something that is not broke yet they want money to fix it. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  JakCrow join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | said by Romney2012:said by Karl Bode:Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. I think the context is - that except for some marginalized consumer groups and some internet bloggers, most people, including their elected representatives, think that elevating the issue of net neutrality to a critical national priority is vastly overblown. Until it affects their ability to reach a service that isn't playing into their ISP's double-dipping demands, then they'll care quite a bit. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  TechieZeroTools Are Using MePremium join:2002-01-25 Gibsonton, FL Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| said by Romney2012:said by Karl Bode:Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. I think the context is - that except for some marginalized consumer groups and some internet bloggers, most people, including their elected representatives, think that elevating the issue of net neutrality to a critical national priority is vastly overblown. I not only agree with this, but I think this is part of a larger agenda of misdirection and political bread and circuses. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 1 edit | said by Karl Bode:Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. And you are going to lecture someone about posting out of context. I mean no disrespect. I visit daily and read every one of your posts, but many of them are written in a context that is only intended to generate traffic and doesn't disclose the truth or show us the whole picture. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by jcremin:said by Karl Bode:Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. And you are going to lecture someone about posting out of context. I mean no disrespect. I visit daily and read every one of your posts, but many of them are written in a context that is only intended to generate traffic and doesn't disclose the truth or show us the whole picture. Disclose the truth? Pathetic. Karl's posts come as close to painting the truth as any blogger or "news" organization out there.
Any disagreement you might have is purely ideological, falling into the "useful idiot" (wiki it before you censor mods) paradigm. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by sonicmerlin:Disclose the truth? Pathetic. Karl's posts come as close to painting the truth as any blogger or "news" organization out there.
Any disagreement you might have is purely ideological, falling into the "useful idiot" (wiki it before you censor mods) paradigm. Bullcrap. His posts are nowhere close to factual journalism. They may be entertaining, but his criticisms of ISPs (while sometimes deserved) are quite often the equivalent as the fan yelling at the TV because he thinks the coach called a dumb play. The fan is out of the loop and only knows the tiny bit of info he can see displayed on his TV. He has the right to say what he wants, but those of us who actually run an ISP have the right to call him out when he has no idea what he's talking about.
ANY journalist or blogger who takes any reports seriously about how one country ranks against another in broadband speeds is simply doing it because they are either trying to attract hits to their site, or they really just have no idea that they are comparing apples to oranges.
Feel free to disagree with me.. We both are entitled to our own opinions, and I will continue to do my best to keep people from being brainwashed whenever he posts nonsense. You can stick up for him. I'm fine with that, but please don't call me an idiot (directly or indirectly). | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | I hate to tell you this, but Karl adds WAY too much opinion into his "news" which pretty much makes them blogs. Further, a lot of his posts are based off of other news articles to begin with. If one is to be a true reporter, ie: one reporting news, they they must generate and gather their own set of information to be "news".. otherwise, as many have said, this is a blog more than "news"..
And to put it simple, Karl has more opinion in his 'reporting' than ABC, NBC, and CBS combined. There is clear bias in his postings.
What I will give the man, however, is that he's very good at sparking a conversation and debates, which many enjoy. He has tipped stories off that others haven't at times. And that one thing I will give him the most credit for is when people like myself, and others like myself ,have called him out in public on some of this stuff, he has rarely, if ever, deleted or moderated those posts of ours. By accepting public comment, directly, he's okay in my book. As much as I do not agree with his views, I will be one of his most vocal critics to credit him for the above. A coward, to the above, would be quick on the delete key. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by fiberguy:I hate to tell you this, but Karl adds WAY too much opinion into his "news" which pretty much makes them blogs. You do hate it ? Odd. Any time Karl rightfully criticizes ISP for their corrupt way or ripping off the customers, you come up immediately in the defense of the megacorps. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by WernerSchutz:Odd. Any time Karl rightfully criticizes ISP for their corrupt way or ripping off the customers, you come up immediately in the defense of the megacorps. There should be a distinction made between defending ISP's as a whole, and defending "megacorps". Yes, the "megacorps" as you put it typically have quite a bit of evil in them, which is quite often heavily driven by boards of lawyers or investors.
Once you take the handful of evil ISP's out of the mix, most of the rest are not all that evil. Yes, they might have to make good business decisions which consumers don't like, but that doesn't make them evil.
I don't think any of us that are sticking up for rules that are really FAIR (ie metered billing/caps/etc) are looking to do it to hurt the customers. We're doing it because that is what is necessary for us to stay in business and have the capital to invest into our infrastructure and provide a quality product. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by jcremin:said by WernerSchutz:Odd. Any time Karl rightfully criticizes ISP for their corrupt way or ripping off the customers, you come up immediately in the defense of the megacorps. There should be a distinction made between defending ISP's as a whole, and defending "megacorps". Yes, the "megacorps" as you put it typically have quite a bit of evil in them, which is quite often heavily driven by boards of lawyers or investors. Once you take the handful of evil ISP's out of the mix, most of the rest are not all that evil. Yes, they might have to make good business decisions which consumers don't like, but that doesn't make them evil. I don't think any of us that are sticking up for rules that are really FAIR (ie metered billing/caps/etc) are looking to do it to hurt the customers. We're doing it because that is what is necessary for us to stay in business and have the capital to invest into our infrastructure and provide a quality product. The small ISP's are tiny compared to the megacorps driving this anti-customer legislation. Also, in the long run, the small ISP's will get destroyed by the megacorps that will buy legislation meant to put the small ISP's out of business. This is clearly a fight of the customers vs. megacorps. By choosing the side of the megacorps amply represented by shills, the small ISP's choose to be on the side of corruption, collusion, bribery and erosion of civil rights and transparency in government. Be prepared to be called scum when you behave like one. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by WernerSchutz:Be prepared to be called scum when you behave like one. You have no idea what you're talking about. Random nonsense. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy I've blocked Werner for the simple reason to what you're replying too. He's so extreme in his views that it hurts him to see any other view than his own.
With THAT said, he clearly doesn't pay attention anyway so why bother responding to him.
To people like him, a corporation is automatically evil. He clearly has no idea of what the makeup of this country would be like with out the larger corps because he sees the world in his own Utopian view.
He doesn't accept an opinion as he believes only that there is are facts - its clear as he spews what he BELIEVES to BE a FACT,.. any scholar can tell you that his post was opinion. Is a corp evil or do they do good? Was Hitler evil in starting WWII? Or was did he pull the world out of a depression? There is thought on both side.
He's also unable to understand that some people don't draw solid lines and believe everything is black and white, one way or the other, and that you have to be on one side of that line. HE, like political parties, have to stand on one group of views and nothing else outside that group is right. I am able to look at an ISSUE and make a judgment based on THAT issue alone.. he can't, and that's his problem. I personally can see good and bad out of the "evil mega corps".. they are hungry for money - that's their job. They also built out resources with their size and large amounts of money.. lets see what this country would be like if every phone and cable company, and cell provider, was still "mom-and-pop" small business. We'd still be barely pushing out 1.5 meg internet, cellular phones would still be out of reach for most people, and long distance would be billing out at 25 cents a minute.
There is more than one side to every story and they speak out simultaneously. To see and only have one view and to fight and defend that view to the end is to be an extremist. Can anyone give me an example of an extremist?? .. there are plenty. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by fiberguy:He doesn't accept an opinion I've noticed... and it can be hard to admit, but a lot of what I post on here is my opinion too. Yes, there are some things that I post which I know to be fact, but when I'm expressing my views, I have to understand that others might not agree. And that can be great for a two sided conversation, but when one side is all mouth and no ears, there's no sense in trying to have a useful discussion.
said by fiberguy:I personally can see good and bad out of the "evil mega corps".. they are hungry for money - that's their job. They also built out resources with their size and large amounts of money.. lets see what this country would be like if every phone and cable company, and cell provider, was still "mom-and-pop" small business. We'd still be barely pushing out 1.5 meg internet I totally agree. Yes, some of the stuff they do is unfair, BUT then again they are quite often driven by investors who then get a say in the company demand results no matter what the cost to the consumer.
On the other hand, they have invested hundreds of billions of dollars for this infrastructure, and can't keep up. The US government swoops in with their measly 7 billion stimulus crap pretending to be the holy grail and rescue the internet, but the reality is that 7 billion dollars will get the internet about as far as putting 10 cents worth of gas in your car. Really doesn't accomplish anything
Anyway, people love to hate companies like Comcast for being evil corporations... But you're getting 10+ megs for what, 50 bucks a month? They are one of the cheapest and fastest sources of bandwidth in the country and people are whining because they want more for less. Oh no, it comes with a 250 gig cap that 90-something percent of the people won't come anywhere close to using!?!? Crybabies.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy Consistent activities aimed at defrauding customers and corrupting government agencies are clear, no matter how squiggly you want a clear line between black and white to be.
Large companies are hated because of their anti customer activities, not because of their size.
An army of shills cannot block out the truth shown by many surveys, complaints and investigations. Blaming the "unfair" activities on investors is plain bullshit, since most of the profits are taken by the executives. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  jcremin join:2009-12-22 Siren, WI kudos:2 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by WernerSchutz:Consistent activities aimed at defrauding customers and corrupting government agencies are clear, no matter how squiggly you want a clear line between black and white to be. Ok, but what specifically are these activities that have been "defrauding customers". Give me some cold hard facts here. That means you can't use any of Karl's blown out of proportion, one sided, anti-corporation stories.
Yes, I will admit that many ISP's have made a mistake from time to time. Some have tossed around the idea of really low caps. But then they have come under fire for it and backed off. Can't really hold it against them if they didn't follow through with it.
And if you say "not delivering the advertised speed", well then I am 100% with you on that one. I do think that ISP's should have to deliver what they advertise, because that is simply just false advertising and a store can't sell a pair of shoes and then only give you one shoe.
But I do really want to see your list of which ISP's are really doing this supposed defrauding. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium join:2005-05-20 kudos:3 | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy For the most part, the bulk of the business of the ISPs is not defrauding the customer. A lot of what many people say is a fraud is a matter of opinion. Some people think that the price, alone, charged for internet is fraud since it's backed by saying "but it only costs them X amount of dollars to provide in the first place".. THAT argument is pure idiocy to begin with. Some people will say that it's defrauding customers by placing caps and overages on a service as well, again, another opinion, not fact.
Where I WILL give in is when they have done things like the resetting of connections to thwart things like BT. However, in that particular case, in all honesty, we have a example of two wrongs not making a right - but I will also say that if someone is standing there getting punched in the face, it IS okay to punch back even if that punch in return is, on the surface, wrong. There is a right to defend in this county.
There is this mentality amongst some of these so-called consumer groups, and their followers, who feel that they can be anarchists and much of what they do in "the name of being right" is okay because, well, they are right. Their view is always that of "corporations are evil and they defraud consumers" which is not valid. To be honest, I find many of these so-called consumer groups to be borderline terrorists WHEN they take matters in their own hands.
He's yet to define what these "consistent activities" are, and even then, to what extent to the over all picture they add up. Its never right to defraud anyone be it a company/business or a person/consumer - fraud and deceit is wrong. But, my opinion is still that many people confuse their ignorance or lack of willingness to base something on fact or the over all picture for wrong doing on the other's part. In the case of Werner, he feels that business has no rights, everything they do is wrong, it's all about the consumer, and a business exists to serve and nothing more. I hate to tell him, but everything in life is a two-way street no matter how much he wants to draw his lines. The fact also remains that there are just some people that feel that having to pay for the internet is just wrong.. they need to check the founding principles of this country. "Life, Liberty, and THE PURSUIT of happiness" and I'm sure the constitution also says nothing to support some of these people's wishes as well.
However, what you state above in your last message is also true and talks about the market place in action. They do something out of line, and the people lash back. Companies push the consumer to see how far they can get all the time. The problem exists when the LAZY consumer sits back and doesn't push back as often as they should WHEN they aren't willing to accept anything. Many sit back and wait for someone else to step in and "make it right" FOR them.. and, that never produces good results either. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  DaDawgsPremium join:2010-08-02 Deltaville, VA | said by Karl Bode:Most of the Senators and most of the House agree with the compromise Genachowski is putting forward Tuesday. Which means what? Most of them utilize principles easily purchased? Your Google news links are welcome but not particularly useful for genuine context. Karl, neither party has a monopoly upon having "principles easily purchased". If that were true we might have passed the ban on earmarks last week. -- I am a legend in my own mind. | |
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 |  |  |  |  TechieZeroTools Are Using MePremium join:2002-01-25 Gibsonton, FL | Why are we reading an opinion of a comedian who stole his election? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  JakCrow join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by TechieZero:Why are we reading an opinion of a comedian who stole his election? One of those fake "conservative" statements that lacks the weight of factual information behind it of course. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  TechieZeroTools Are Using MePremium join:2002-01-25 Gibsonton, FL Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by JakCrow:said by TechieZero:Why are we reading an opinion of a comedian who stole his election? One of those fake "conservative" statements that lacks the weight of factual information behind it of course. Jak I am allowed my opinion like an other liberal jackass or is that a Donkey? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  JakCrow join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy said by TechieZero:said by JakCrow:said by TechieZero:Why are we reading an opinion of a comedian who stole his election? One of those fake "conservative" statements that lacks the weight of factual information behind it of course. Jak I am allowed my opinion like an other liberal jackass or is that a Donkey? You're not allowed your own facts. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  TechieZeroTools Are Using MePremium join:2002-01-25 Gibsonton, FL Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy Well he certainly is a comedian.
And finding votes in cars etc. "Oh look more votes!" --- When you can't win a close election, keep moving it to the lawyers and the courts so that eventually you will win it --- the democrats election motto...
No? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  JakCrow join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | Re: And Sen Al Franken attacks proposed rules as Too easy Except it was Coleman that took the election to court. You're using your own "facts" again. | |
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 |  |  |  TechieZeroTools Are Using MePremium join:2002-01-25 Gibsonton, FL Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Re: FCC's McDowell blasts the new rules already before they are said by Romney2012:On this winter solstice, we will witness jaw-dropping interventionist chutzpah as the FCC bypasses branches of our government in the dogged pursuit of needless and harmful regulation. The darkest day of the year may end up marking the beginning of a long winter's night for Internet freedom.
As my uncle used to say "President's come and go --- but the ADMINISTRATORS stay the same..." | |
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 |  |  | | Re: What rules most likely will be So who supports the plan?
DEMOCRATS! | |
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 |  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: Nothing good here McDowell blasted the FCC for several things before the vote is held. The big one is that Genachowski didn't even make the final draft of the rules available to the Commissioners and their staffs until 10 minutes to Midnight last night. Yet he expects them to vote on these rules without the staffs even having read them yet.
The 2nd one is that the courts have already ruled that the FCC doesn't have the power to even issue these rules. Guess a lawsuit will be filed quickly by someone against these rules.
The 3rd is that the FCC still reserves the right to regulate broadband prices. Again w/o legal authority. | |
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 | | Copps should be ashamed He caved before the debate had even entered the 11th hour. He alone had the power to implement his convictions, and he caved. He's worse than Genachowski, because unlike that empty suit, Copps supposedly actually thinks Net Neutrality should be preserved, yet here he is doing his part to kill it. | |
|  |  See 10 replies to this post | |
 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Great!
How much is this BS going to end up costing us. | |
|  |  | | Re: Great! I'm sure way more than we are willing to pay! | |
|  |  DaDawgsPremium join:2010-08-02 Deltaville, VA | said by pnh102:How much is this BS going to end up costing us. If I read it right, it is going to cost you your fair share. If I read it right it is an endorsement for metered billing. I'm pretty sure I read it right. -- I am a legend in my own mind. | |
|  |  |  JakCrow join:2001-12-06 Palo Alto, CA | Re: Great! said by DaDawgs:said by pnh102:How much is this BS going to end up costing us. If I read it right, it is going to cost you your fair share. If I read it right it is an endorsement for metered billing. I'm pretty sure I read it right. Except the big providers want to do metered billing all on their own, regardless of the constantly lowering costs of providing services. Comes from an environment that has little real competition. | |
|  |  |  |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Re: Great! said by JakCrow:Except the big providers want to do metered billing all on their own, regardless of the constantly lowering costs of providing services. Comes from an environment that has little real competition. Which is another problem the government helped to create. There was no reason the government couldn't have told AT&T and Cingular that they couldn't merge, or the same with Sprint and Nextel. -- "Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
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 | | What a load of Transparent BS TRANSPARENCY
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL | |
|  firephotoKDEPremium join:2003-03-18 Brewster, WA Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
| The darkest day in modern times great timing. December 21, 2010.
It's sad without knowing the details you know that anything crafted with any interest of any corporation is bad for the majority of the population. You'll have the puppets say how it has to be this way, the ones who will cry because they need assistance with their multi-billion dollar business or it can't succeed then cry again when the government might not give them a hand out and make them have to cry for less government regulation.
Just as guilty, every single person that support their causes and their political beliefs and the two-faced good old boys crap. I've seen it first hand from the bottom to top of government and it it's always the same, it benefits a few at the cost of many. | |
|  | | If Your ISP Screws You... ...then it's time to let them know. The only way these people get the idea is if you cost them their quarterly number. I'm prepared to kill off my wireless data plan should AT&T get too uppity, and the same goes for Charter.
It will suck, but I can certainly find better things to do with my money. After all, they would have already taken away the internet that I've come to enjoy. | |
|  kingdome74What Have You DonePremium join:2002-03-27 Syracuse, NY kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·RoadRunner Cable
| Blah, blah, blah... another politician who said he doesn't like something but, BY GOD, he's voting for it regardless if it screws everyone of his/her constituents. Say goodbye to any form of free speech anywhere in the late, great USA. -- Fascists like free speech as long as it's their free speech. Et tu, Brute?
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|  Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Apparently "net neutrality" to this crowd means... complete regulation of all the network companies (wired and wireless) to eliminate any attempt on their part to differentiate their offerings, to try to entice consumers to switch over to them.
No exclusive phones, no exclusive apps or services, no difference at all.
Not to mention complete regulation to eliminate any attempt to block illegal content, or to price differently for different usage patterns.
You really want them to be just connections to the Internet, and compete only on speed and cost and reliability.
Well... nice idea. But, why should government decide this and impose it via regulation? If that's really the most effective business model, and the one that consumers really want, it'll emerge organically.
I think this crowd needs to face up to the fact that this is not what most people want. | |
|  |  See 18 replies to this post | |
 | | Well I guess people will have to live without the internet if all this gets any worse. | |
|  |  | | Re: Well said by anon7 :I guess people will have to live without the internet if all this gets any worse. Check out CB radio. It's almost as entertaining as all the blahg puffery you read on the internet. | |
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 | | the internet-OUR LAST FREEDOM As ultracooldave has predicted for several years on this forum-watch out when any government wants to tax or control the internet. There is absolutely NOTHING going on with the internet today or tomorrow to justify govt controls (censorship) with internet content! If we lose this last freedom we will never get it back! Remember this day- you can possibly tell your children that there was a time we were truly free! | |
|  | | NYT half hour ago. 2 Net classes. »www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/busin···fcc.html
The Federal Communications Commission appears poised to pass a controversial set of rules that broadly create two classes of Internet access, one for fixed-line providers and the other for the wireless Net. The proposed rules of the online road would prevent fixed-line broadband providers like Comcast and Qwest from blocking access to sites and applications. The rules, however, would allow wireless companies more latitude in putting limits on access to services and applications. | |
|  ARGONAUTgot ping?Premium join:2006-01-24 New Albany, IN | taco bell in the tubes This is going to hurt. | |
|  |  |  LegoPower77AbecedarianPremium join:2002-08-03 Midlothian, VA | Re: My professor from network engineering class Your right about the names meaning the opposite. The [insert party name here] say they care about the poor, but what they really want is to make sure you can't care for yourself so you have to vote for them. It's like the "People's Republic of suchandsuch:" it's not the people's and it's not a republic.
As to the pollution claim, I don't buy it. Specifically because India is not #2 (considering their population is so much larger than ours) and also from empirical data. The more wealthy a society, the cleaner it gets. It should be intuitive: if you're worried about starving to death then to hell with the forest creatures, but if you have a pantry full of food, you can make sure the dogs are fed and the cats are rubbed.
Really, it's there. America might be a "big polluter" but relative to output, we do it clean.
I learned from my economics professor that you can't have goods without pollution. There are no free lunches. Even the act of living means you have to put feces in the river. What we can have is better, cleaner technology, and that's something that happens only as societies get more affluent.
We shouldn't be feeling guilty for what we have, we should be thanking God and teaching India and China how to do it better. -- "It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."James Madison | |
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 | | Please FCC no data cap law! They are already sending me a router for their national broadband speed test. I will hook it up to my moms computer. | |
|  |  | | Time to call your representatives. I sent the following to my senators and congressman, no reply's yet:
I am writing this to express my concern over the FCC upcoming vote on Neutrality Rules. Since this concept did not pass in the legislature and was deemed unacceptable in the courts, I would like to know what authority the FCC has to even consider it. Whom do these people think they are? This is the very worst kind of government. Where an agency feels that it can ignore the will of the people, the legislature, and the courts and do whatever it wants.
On the surface the 6 concepts that Julius Genachowski is supporting in his desire to regulate the Internet look like a good thing. However, I am opposed to any form of government regulation of the Internet no matter how good it may appear. It will set a precedent that will open the Internet and other communication forms to regulation at the whims of the FCC long after Julius Genachowski and the other board members are long gone.
I ask you to please apply substantial pressure to the FCC to not adopt (vote against) the rules of Net Neutrality.
If you are unsuccessful and the FCC exceeds authority and adopts these rules I ask you to support Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison's amendment to H.R.3082 introduced 16 Dec 2010. This amendment is currently cosponsored by the following: Sen Coburn, Tom [OK] - 12/16/2010 Sen Cornyn, John [TX] - 12/16/2010 Sen DeMint, Jim [SC] - 12/16/2010 Sen Ensign, John [NV] - 12/16/2010 Sen Isakson, Johnny [GA] - 12/16/2010 Sen Thune, John [SD] - 12/16/2010 Sen Wicker, Roger F. [MS] - 12/16/2010 This amendment will block funding for the FCC to impose Net Neutrality Regulations.
As a citizen of this country (and a veteran) I am sickened by the heavy boot the federal government has on the neck of basic freedoms in this country. Also by the governments increasing involvement into every aspect of our lives. The Great American Experiment is being regulated out of existence. | |
|  | | FCC Will Approve Neutrality Rules Tomorrow It took them long enough. | |
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