 Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 2 edits | A supporting commentary to McDowells
A commentary that supports McDowell somewhat:
»news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10000···1_3-0-20
A good writeup over the limits of the FCC and the total hypocrisy of the groups claiming the FCC principles have the power of law. And their flip flop on their support of FCC powers.
And the commentator is not some anti-technologist. He has been involved with and writing about technology for years. »www.mccullagh.org/declan/ -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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1 edit | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells regardless of which "side" one is on, the fact seems to remain that the simplest way to solve bandwidth problems (if there really are bandwidth problems) is TO ADD MORE BANDWIDTH.
but that's not sexy
and it cost money
and when you buy the DPI equipment, it lets you do all sorts of other stuff!
oh, by the way, McDowell is either ignorant of the facts or he chose to misrepresent what was actually found by Robb and the AP, because his description of what happened appears to be straight from Comcast press releases (I know, what a shock). | |
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 |  |  jaminus join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells I, for one, would gladly download terabytes a month if my ISP allowed it. Do I need all that stuff? Not really. But if the bandwidth's there, I'll certainly use it. And so would many others as well.
Yes, capacity has got to increase, and that's why companies are investing in things like laying fiber, pair-bonding POTS lines, hybrid fiber-coax, DOCSIS 3.0, VDSL2, and the like.
Ultimately, though, there will ALWAYS be finite bandwidth and infinite demand for bandwidth. If you build it, they will come. That's why it's so important to manage a scarce resource in a manner that suits those who use the resource.
Is Sandvine the best way to manage a network? Probably not. But it's not entirely clear that "peak metering" is the best way, either -- after all, only 6% of Comcast's users were P2P users, and it's possible that far more users will be affected by the new metering system Comcast will soon implement.
Politicians should not be the ones who decide how ISPs deal with congestion. Competition among providers to give consumers the best possible service will benefit all of us in the long run. The fact that sometimes, some companies will make mistakes (i.e. Sandvine) is not a valid reason for abandoning the principles of freedom and private network ownership. | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by jaminus:Politicians should not be the ones who decide how ISPs deal with congestion. Competition among providers to give consumers the best possible service will benefit all of us in the long run. Agreed, but politicians, unfortunately, are the only ones who ultimately make the decisions when it comes to the very competition that you refer to. | |
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 |  |  |  | | All we need is FIBER. Copper is obsolete and wireless is "stupid" until we can really reform the FCC and open the spectrum properly.
FIBER is the way to go. if 10 gbps adapters are commodified by the time you deploy, then you'll start offering your users 10 gigabit connections. Otherwise you'll have to do with a paltry ONE GIGABIT per second - aw darn.
WE (the citizens) build it - WE (the citizens hiring locally) run it - and that will be the future to live in.
See »communityfiber.org | |
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 |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | said by nasadude:and when you buy the DPI equipment, it lets you do all sorts of other stuff! I think it was Bob Briscoe who said at the IETF P2P Working Group that for every $1 dollar spent on DPI the ISP saved $10 in infrastructure increases.
I guess that's good, if the only thing you worry about is controlling your costs. It doesn't say anything for the fact that the other $9 is "access denied" to the applications, destinations, and content that the users want. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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 |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by funchords:It doesn't say anything for the fact that the other $9 is "access denied" to the applications, destinations, and content that the users want. Rewrite: It doesn't say anything for the fact that the other $9 is "access denied" to the applications, destinations, and content that the users music & movie thieves want. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by Romney2012:.. and content that the users music & movie thieves want. TK, you are so predictable.
copyright infringement isn't theft, so they can't be thieves. Sometimes I think you're a caricature of a real person. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  Romney2012Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe inPremium join:2002-03-03 USA kudos:4 | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by nasadude:said by Romney2012:.. and content that the users music & movie thieves want. Sometimes I think you're a caricature of a real person. A recent photo:
 TK Junk Mail at home :)
-- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by Jovi:Can we ever have a debate about bandwidth that does not involve being thieves? Not as long as TK is still allowed to post. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  fireflierCoffee. . .Need CoffeePremium join:2001-05-25 Limbo | Probably not. Since thievery seems to be one of the talking points some need to use to justify corporate decisions that would otherwise be difficult to justify to paying customers.
It's easier to claim high-bandwidth users must be doing something wrong--and thus additional bandwidth is only going to support unethical or illegal activities--than actually debating the merits of legitimate use and what alternatives there are to the ISPs to handle those higher bandwidth (LEGITIMATE) applications. -- Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com | |
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 |  |  |  |  | | The complaints about VPN or SSH being broken by DPI shoot a whole in your argument that DPI only affects "music & movie thieves". -- --- Eleven years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
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 |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
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| said by nasadude:regardless of which "side" one is on, the fact seems to remain that the simplest way to solve bandwidth problems (if there really are bandwidth problems) is TO ADD MORE BANDWIDTH. That's like saying the solution to your debt problem is to acquire more money. Although technically correct, it ignores the constraints of reality that would stop you from doing so.
Case in point: name all of the full DOCSIS 3.0 (ie, not pre-cert) cable modems that are currently being mass produced today. | |
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 |  |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by espaeth:Case in point: name all of the full DOCSIS 3.0 (ie, not pre-cert) cable modems that are currently being mass produced today. Or 802.11N wi-fi gear (not DRAFT) -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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 |  |  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
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| Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by funchords:said by espaeth:Case in point: name all of the full DOCSIS 3.0 (ie, not pre-cert) cable modems that are currently being mass produced today. Or 802.11N wi-fi gear (not DRAFT) That's not quite the same argument. The 11N standard is baked out enough that equipment will, in all probability, be firmware upgradeable to the final standard. The worst case scenario is that you end up just like the Cisco customers who bought power over Ethernet hardware before the 802.3af standard was ratified -- you can still use the hardware, but you won't be able to purchase any new devices to attach to it. Considering 11N draft APs are going for sub-$100 and NICs are dirt cheap, the hardship is also minimal.
Right now the DOCSIS 3.0 trial hardware is spendy because it's being produced in limited production runs, and modems like the DPC2505 that Comcast is using here in MN only have multiple downstream tuners combined with a single upstream tuner. Once upstream channel bonding is fully adopted and product actually starts rolling off assembly lines, the DPC2505 will simply be a $600 piece of dumpster fodder. Not exactly the kind of hardware you want to start rolling en-mass. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells holy crap!
So what's the bet, that they're not really going to do upstream channel bonding RSN? | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
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1 edit | Re: A supporting commentary to McDowells said by funchords:So what's the bet, that they're not really going to do upstream channel bonding RSN? They're certainly getting closer. If you look at the certification results here there were a bunch of CPE models that received D3.0 full certification in May & June. With any luck those should start turning into assembly line production runs soon.
The big issue right now is there is only one CMTS that has full D3 certification with upstream bonding support, and that's from Casa Systems. Unfortunately Cisco and Motorola seem to dominate the US cable modem head-end market... | |
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 MikePremium,Mod join:2000-09-17 Pittsburgh, PA Host: W.O.W. FairPoint World of Warcraft Site Tools Verizon Wireless
| engineers have always had this problem If the world was full of engineers we'd be in spaceships flying around the galaxy by now.
Politicians like to get their hands on everything and dumb it up. -- "If something about the human body disgusts you, complain to the manufacturer" - Lenny Bruce What this country needs is a good five dollar plasma weapon. | |
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 |  | | Re: engineers have always had this problem said by Mike:If the world was full of engineers we'd be in spaceships flying around the galaxy by now. I completely agree. | |
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 |  | | said by Mike:If the world was full of engineers we'd be in spaceships flying around the galaxy by now. Politicians like to get their hands on everything and dumb it up. Don't forget about corporate talking heads and marketeers getting in the way of their company engineers. THAT is the real problem. The engineer says what the maketeer wants to say and comes up with tech justifications. That doesn't sound too goo either. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: engineers have always had this problem Yup. Dave Haynie is a good friend of mine(Google is your friend here). It is quite entertaining to hear him get on a roll about marketing droids and clue-deprived management types. Most enlightening.
And no, the problem is not politicians. That's a common trope used by people who desperately want to believe corporations are their BFF. | |
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 |  |  |  jslikThat just happenedPremium join:2006-03-17 | Re: engineers have always had this problem Yes, Dave Haynie is probably THE expert about clueless management killing superior technology...
I still fire up my old 2000 from time to time and wonder "what may have been..."  -- If they told you wolverines would make good house pets, would you believe them? -"Planes, Trains & Automobiles" | |
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 |  DogfatherPremium join:2007-12-26 Laguna Hills, CA | And if the spaceships were controlled by Comcast you would be paying overage fees if you passed 10,000 ft. But damn, you would get to 10K ft really quick. | |
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 |  |  MikePremium,Mod join:2000-09-17 Pittsburgh, PA 1 edit | Re: engineers have always had this problem If the engineers were controlled by Comcast... they would should video signal with their light beams into your head.
Instead the corporate talking drones shoot light beams up your ass. | |
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 | | Expected This is why idiots shouldnt run the FCC. When politicians are in control of tech/communications stupid decisions will be made. | |
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| geez Karl "...that would be quickly fixed if the government started hiring non-partisan, independent engineers and technologists as FCC Commissioners, and stopped staffing the agency with lobbyists."
I guess you'll want some flying pigs along with that? | |
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 bjbrock join:2002-10-28 Mcalester, OK | Two things need to be done. Start charging for the actual bandwidth used. And immediately start shoring up the broadband infrastructure.
Those who use more should pay more. All goods and services work this way.
At the same time, internet traffic is only going to get worse. If those in charge of the infrastructure don't start increasing it size these kind of problems will get out of hand. If they aren't already. | |
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 |  See 9 replies to this post |
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 HFB1217The WizardPremium,ExMod 2000-01 join:2000-06-26 Camelot kudos:1 | Money and Stupidity Reign It has been a major fact of political life that money and the lack of education of our politicos influences the way we develop our laws and technology.
A sad state of being but some how we survive and move ahead even if slowly and imperfectly. -- ****aka The WIZARD **** A Founding member Seti BBR Team Starfire**** | |
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 morboComplete Your Transaction join:2002-01-22 00000 | McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR one only look at the past decade to see how fear is incredibly powerful. the fear of new terrorist attacks couldn't stop citizens from offering up their freedoms and civil rights.
McDowell should be removed from his post at the FCC as he is clearly out of touch. | |
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 |  jaminus join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA | Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR McDowell's language was surely inflammatory, and probably unjustifiably so. But in the net neutrality debate, everybody--from the "public interest" groups like Free Press to the telcos themselves--is using powerful language to describe complicated concepts to the masses.
In a sense, McDowell does have a point, though. Look at the history of regulation as it applies to private infrastructure. Once politicians start meddling with competitive forces, the status-quo is entrenched at the expense of progress. Consider Plain Old Telephone Service, which remained largely stagnant for decades on account of Ma Bell's entrenched monopoly status.
Will the Internet "grind to a halt" if the FCC rules against Comcast? Not likely. But if providers lose the right to run their networks as they see fit, it's highly likely that investment will decrease and the expansion of networks will be slower than it would otherwise be. Why spend billions laying fiber across the nation if regulators are going to swoop in and tell you that your pricing model is "unfair??
Progress happens because firms develop and implement new products, new pricing models, and new ways of doing business. If you curtail experimentation on account of a single company's mistake, you just might lose "good" experimentation, too. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR said by jaminus:In a sense, McDowell does have a point, though. Look at the history of regulation as it applies to private infrastructure. Once politicians start meddling with competitive forces, the status-quo is entrenched at the expense of progress. Consider Plain Old Telephone Service, which remained largely stagnant for decades on account of Ma Bell's entrenched monopoly status. Do you even know what you're talking about - The Feds were the ones responsible for disassembling Ma Bell back in the 80s. Do you think for one microsecond that if that had not happened the Internet would have had a snowball's hope in hell of ever becoming what it is today? | |
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 |  |  |  | | Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR Um, no. Ma Bell agreed to split up after fighting it for 14 years.
And exactly how did that have anything to do with the CABLE INDUSTRY coming in and basically creating the HSD industry in the US by providing people with affordable home HSD?
EVERY phone switch installed for the last 30 YEARS has been capable of ISDN, yet the phone companies REFUSED a general roll out of it, until it was to late and the cable companies made ISDN speeds look silly (and expensive). EVERY RBOC had ZERO plans to sell affordable HSD to consumers, until the cable companies jumped in.
Thank the CABLE COMPANIES for bringing competition and INNOVATION to HSD, without them you would still be paying $80 a month OR MORE for ISDN (if you could even get it).
Do you even know what you're talking about - The Feds were the ones responsible for disassembling Ma Bell back in the 80s. Do you think for one microsecond that if that had not happened the Internet would have had a snowball's hope in hell of ever becoming what it is today? | |
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 |  |  |  |  | | Re: McDowell uses what (usually) works: FEAR Actually, if wikipedia is to be believed, Silver Surfer is right:
The rest of the telephone monopoly lasted until final settlement of a 1974 United States Department of Justice antitrust suit against AT&T on January 8, 1982, under which AT&T ("Ma Bell") agreed to divest its local exchange service operating companies, in return for a chance to go into the computer business (see AT&T Computer Systems). AT&T's local operations were split into seven independent Regional Bell Operating Companies known as "Baby Bells".
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Note: Bold mine. Source: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_T···elegraph
So the US government did disassemble AT&T. Unless Wikipedia is wrong (which it could be)...then it needs some editin'... | |
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 |  |  tschmidtPremium,MVM join:2000-11-12 Milford, NH kudos:5 Reviews:
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| said by jaminus: Look at the history of regulation as it applies to private infrastructure. Once politicians start meddling with competitive forces, the status-quo is entrenched at the expense of progress. Consider Plain Old Telephone Service, which remained largely stagnant for decades on account of Ma Bell's entrenched monopoly status. The initial deal was in response to rivalry between competing phone companies that refused to interconnect with one another. During the early days you could only call subscribers if there were customers of your phone company.
Then in the 1980's when it became clear monopolist regulations were stifling innovation Telecom Divestiture occurred.
said by jaminus:Progress happens because firms develop and implement new products, new pricing models, and new ways of doing business. If you curtail experimentation on account of a single company's mistake, you just might lose "good" experimentation, too. There is always a trade-off. I'd argue there is little to no competition in first-mile access space. What little there is is not focused on maximizing social value it is, as it should be, focused on maximizing profitability. In some cases maximizing profitability is good social policy in other it is not.
The Net Neutrality debate is about how to strike that delicate balance.
/tom | |
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 garmst join:2000-09-17 New York, NY 1 edit | If Politicians ran the Internet 1. There would be minimum bandwidth allocations for minority use.
2. Black Internet users would have higher bandwidth caps to make up for past white people's rapacious usage.
3. All offensive speech would be banned.
4. Every web page has to have a non-smoking, non-sexist, non-gender, equal opportunity, decals.
5. Cigarette, Pharmaceutical and Oil companies will be banned from operating web sites.
6. NASCAR web sites will be put on probation.
7. All ISP's must have minority ownership and purchasing set asides.
8. All bits must be recycled! | |
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 |  | | Re: If Politicians ran the Internet It sounds like you pulled this out of your ass. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: If Politicians ran the Internet I think it was, as usual, was passed down through the family. | |
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 |  | | good points, but i think the internet's tubes would permanently clog up (obviously nothing would get done with politicians running the intarnetz) leading to a new underground internet. probably would be a direct result from most of those points. | |
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 |  | | Well, I agree with 1 and 2, but 3 is a stretch because the 1st amendment would come into play.
4 and 5 are completely wrong because a large quantity of politicians (esp NeoCons) are sponsored by those corporations, and almost all politicians are racist/homophobic (to some extent).
It's just the way of the world (horribly enough)! | |
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 KylemaulLovin' My FirefoxPremium join:2001-03-30 North Port, FL | Scariest part of the 'talking point' is- McDowell (a former telecom lobbyist): ..."Others contend that the FCC has no enforceable rules that apply to such situations and that the issue should be addressed through a rule-making proceeding, with an opportunity for public comment, or through congressional legislation. We have examined the arguments on both sides and are poised to decide the matter this week. But regardless of what that ruling stipulates, the issue of what constitutes appropriate Internet network management will be debated for some time."... (emphasis added) | |
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 |  | | McDowell sees through lobbyists One of McDowell's best traits is that, having once been a lobbyist, he recognizes their motivations and sees right through their falsehoods. While some of the other Commissioners seem to have been bamboozled by Free Press, Inc. and to have swallowed its lies hook, line and sinker, McDowell hasn't. He should be appointed Chairman. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: McDowell sees through lobbyists lol
I really hope you're joking. McDowell used to be a lobbyist and that is where his loyalties still clearly lie.
Do you honestly think Free Press is telling remotely as many or as massive a lies as the telcos? | |
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 | | Makes me wonder... regarding his "editorial"...
do lobbyists pay him by the word or by the vote? | |
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 radam join:2004-02-13 Fairfax Station, VA 1 edit | FCC and cable regulations... FCC should promote competition.. It straightened out Cox's attitude towards customers in Northern VA once Verison FIOS came into town! Perhaps it would correct Comcast's behavior as well. | |
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| Comcast should be punished Look... they spent loads of money to buy DPI tech... if they took that same money and put it into more bandwidth and more dslams or docsis... then the problem would be fixed.
They should punish comcast and others who do this.
However when it comes to throttling... fine let them throttle... but they have to throttle everything.
When grandma and grandpa call up to wonder why their internet is slow... they say that they are being throttled and their email is going to be slow unless they are awake during times that vampires are awake. While DSL or Cable company X has an offer saying that your internet isnt going to be throttled... then grandma and grandpa will go with that other company.
If bandwidth is their problem. Knock everyone down to 3mbps or slower. Not any 10mbps.
You cant offer 10mbps and then throttle them down to 1mbps the entire day... that's fraud. | |
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 | | Viva Apocalypse Apocalypse sure as hell looks better than this. | |
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 | | Morons at the FCC "Another concern is that as an institution, the FCC is incapable of deciding any issue in the nanoseconds that make up Internet time."
The guy actually said that. And it means nothing whatsoever, and he's still an FCC commissioner.
We need to GET RID of all the people in all government agencies whose religion is MONEY. We need to get RID of AT&T, Comcast and Verizon and the way to do that can be found at »communityfiber.org.
Would you like a GIGABIT connection to your house for half what you pay AT&T/Comcast/Verizon? Of course you would, and you can have that - as soon as you begin to believe in yourselves and your COMMUNITY. We build it, we own it, and there'll be nothing the moneygrubbing jerks can do to interfere with it.
No compromises: let us build our own (modern) telecom infrastructure and put the telcos and cablecos in the dustbin of history where they belong.
If some jerk can't get rich off you after that, well tough. He or she will have to get a real job, like the rest of us have. | |
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