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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Relative fewer # of users is the reason Maine is reaping what it has sown. Throughout the '90's, Maine and the Maine PUC were about as hostile as any state to competitive entry, protecting NYNEX/BA/VZ interests religiously. Only one CLEC (Brooks Fiber) entered Maine, and they got hammered every legislative and regulatory way they could. Maine is getting what it deserves from VZ (act like a doormat and expect to get treated like one) and Maine now also has no option to tell people they can wipe their feet elsewhere.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA
| Nothing to do with the provider Maine has some of the slowest speeds in the nation because of a combination of population density and prosperity. It's a huge state with (relatively) low population, and a significant portion of people who can't afford the luxuries that some of us enjoy. In a (relatively) market-based economy, this isn't going to yield fast expansion with *any* company.
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Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru? | |
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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA
2 edits | Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Aside from median and average being different and in most instances the median is irrelevent. Only getting their membership more money (which is why it exists) and all of this is just a smokescreen to aid in that end.
It's not a matter of FairPoint not being able to deliver to customers what they need. It's a matter of FairPoint not delivering to the Union what they may want.
Then there is the issue of median and average being different. The median is completely irrelavant. If you have 100 people and 99 of them get 10Mb and 1 gets 1Mb, the median is 5Mb. What "average" available speeds are is more relevant.
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Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
 ·Comcast
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers It didn't take long.....mention a union and have some jamoke bash it with with what he or she hears on talk radio. Know this; if it wasn't for the underlying threat of collective bargaining, no corporation would voluntarilly offer the benefits that they do. Not to mention, if you get rid of the union, it will be illegal aliens or Z-Visa "guest workers" getting these jobs rather than the US citizen.
We're already heading towards a Walmart society that sells nothing but crap made from China. Why push us over? | |
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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA
2 edits | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Thanks for making my point.
I don't give a crap about the Union getting more dough for the membership...just these stupid astroturf-like smokescreens. The Union doesn't give two squits of piss about the customers.
They should just say they don't believe they can get a good deal for the workers if they're dealing with FairPoint versus a bigger company instead of these red herrings.
Meanwhile if you don't like Wal*Mart, don't shop there.
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Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Actually your point is ill-informed. A union member has to go through an apprenticeship (at a lower wage) where he or she learns every facet of that particular trade. This make the worker a more efficient, better trained technician than that of worker with no or limited training. This should be reflected in the network. Now even you can comprehend this.
Why don't you ask the workers what FairPoint is neglecting to give them! | |
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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Nice troll. | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers VICIUOS COMEBACK.....STOP IT
mCfLY! | |
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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA
4 edits | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Come on. Read the thread instead of going 'shields up' for the Union bosses and running off on these off-topic attempts to argue the merits of union members.
No one gives a crap about union member training as we see in the case of FiOS, non-union west coast installs going faster than east coast union installs. This is about the union boss smokescreen...similar to the one last week about Verizon neglecting its copper.
The union doesn't want to deal with FairPoint because they won't be able to cut as good a deals as they could with a larger company like Verizon. Anyone with a brain can see that.
They should just SAY that instead of wasting everyone's time with all the bullcrap. The union doesn't give a damn about the customers, nor should they. They represent the union membership.
And before getting all bent, realize that not all criticism of a union is directed at union members.
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Macintosh Users Group Serving the Inland Empire | |
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| | | | | | | chemaupr
join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers my experiences with union as a past union member is that all they care is to protect the lazy a** members. I had to work my b** off because the lazy a** union has some idiot negotiations that only benefit the lazy people. Sure it give me good benefits but the other as**le that worked 1/5 of his time had the same benefits and it was hard for mngmt to get rid of him. So I have no sympathy for what ever the union says.
Further, the union role is to seek for the benefits of its members and as far as I know the customers are not unionized  | |
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ColorBASIC
8-bit Fun
Premium
join:2006-12-29
Corona, CA | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Again, this has ZERO to do with union membership. | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers fist of all, union membership relies on a good product, which is good for the consumer. The union knows this because without a decent product, it's dead. This is self preservation.
Second, most corps. try to eliminate union members because this is they're greatest expense. A lower waged worker will give them a greater profit margin. This is never filtered down to the consumer. It is only reflected in
8 digit paychecks to board members. Once the union members are gone, you better believe they'll be gunning for the rest!
Look at what ATT did here in the midwest, slashed the workforce by roughly 1/3rd. Now they're offering IPTV, VOIP, and internet. How can I truly believe this network will not fail at multiple juctures with that much less staff to deal with the added workload.
Finally, unions like non-union entities have lazy people.
All you have to do to find anti union and pro union laziness is look at congress.\
and CB, it what you whos gut reaction was to bash union bosses from the getgo! | |
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| | | BernieLyons
join:2004-02-28
Paramus, NJ
| Unfortunately, the communications customer has no other choice in Comm. suppliers, whereas with Walmart you have many other choices.
As for anti union, consider the source, a Mac user, and we all know they are mad at the world because they will always be No. 2 | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers said by TScheisskopf  :I mean, how dare ANYONE stand up for consumers ... Why do you assume a union stands up for consumers? A union's job is to stand up for its membership, just like a business' job is to stand up for its shareholders.
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ
 ·Sprint Broadband D..
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Last I looked, union members ARE consumers. Also, the points they raise are valid parts of the debate for ALL consumers and would never be raised if their voices weren't out there.
Surely, the corporations are not going to catch a bad case of the honests and issue a press release that says "Oh, and our copper plants are falling apart like a cheap suit in a spin cycle, because we have cut staff and focused all our investment away from maintenance".
No, the other folks on the front lines, the unions, are gonna do that, and we are better off for it. Even if what they are saying is half-true, we need to know it, for WE are the ones paying the nut. | |
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| | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers What I don't get is why is the union having a cow over what is going on now with broadband and services that Fairpoint won't/can't offer. VZ doesn't offer them now so now that they want to sell the customers to someone who wants them they think they can get them? Fairpoint and VZ needs to tell the Unions to take a hike and get on with business. | |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ
·Sprint Broadband D..
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers What it boils down to, when you take a look at the history of broadband in the United States since the passage of the Telecommunications Deregulation Act, is a nearly unbroken string of promises. If you look at what the incumbents promised in what would be delivered, if they were only deregulated, and what they have delivered, you will notice that they lied like rocks in congress.They haven't delivered what they promised and they had no intention of doing so.
Someone has to hold the feet of these companies to a white-hot fire and if one of those somebodies is the unions? Great. May their numbers only increase and multiply.
Why people here think that large companies can do no wrong and should only be allowed to do anything they damn well please is a puzzlement to me, especially when you consider the fact that the number one criminal class in the US is corporations. They break far more laws, every year, then any other class. They are the purest form of Amorality. | |
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| | | | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers The thing is though; the unions only started bitching about this since VZ announced they are selling to Fairpoint. Other wise you never heard a damn thing from the Unions.
I'm not a fan of VZ in anyway; I could careless what they do or even care if they were in business tomorrow; but VZ needs to stand up to them and tell them to take a hike. The unions only care bought their damn dues.
My mom was a member of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union and they didnt do shit for her. She was illegally fired by the company she worked for and then had to deal with the union for 6 months trying to fight for her job back. they did shit for her. I stood up to the damn company told them to give an answer or face the damn Labor board and the court for contract breach. They answered in 2hours once i said court. The union couldn't figure out why they couldnt get anything. Unions suck and only protect their damn $$$$.
VZ just tell them to take a damn hike sign the damn paper work with Fairpoint and get the FCC to pass this through like anything else. | |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ
·Sprint Broadband D..
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Look, there ARE terrible locals and terrible unions out there. I agree. But it is the job of the membership to deal with that. They elect the officers of their locals and the international. If those officers are not doing the job for them, they need to vote the bums out.
But on balance, unions have done a lot more good for workers then bad.
I was talking to a guy today, who works for a car dealership. They decertified the union at the dealership, after the owner sold them a bill of goods. As soon as the decert took place, the owner cut pay and benefits across the board. They no longer had a union and there was no recourse.
They made their bed and now they get to lie in it. | |
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| | | | | | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers But what the Union is doing to VZ and Fairpoint is not needed. The Union isn't gonna do shit to VZ. It's just business as usual their and money spent at the FCC and every where else to get this deal finalized and done with. The Union's just don't want to work with a smaller company and do not like what Fairpoint has to say about offering anything different so they decide to run their mouths. Nothing is changing as far as services are concerned Fairpoint has already said that. Their just not expanding DSL into areas where they're unable to do it.
I'm all for VZ and Fairpoint on this one. | |
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kneedeep
join:2000-10-01
Springfield, MA
clubs: | In your example the median would be the 50th sample which is 10Mb and it's not irrelevant. | |
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| | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers Seriously. The Median can actually be more representative in a non-normal distribution.
Talk about foot in mouth.
As far as unions go, they're certainly essential, especially in displaced markets like telecom.
That being said, their motivations are just as skewed as a corporations, and it's ridiculous when members get huffy because people call them out on it. It's perfectly okay that unions exist to take care of their members and not the customers. It's kind of silly for them to pretend that's what they're doing, but it's all part of spin, and I'm sure VZ would do the same if they had the chance.
The argument against Fairpoint doesn't make any sense really. "Verizon has abused the infrastructure, they shouldn't be allowed to sell it to someone else who might fix it, because they might not!" What? Why would VZ's continued negligence be any better? A: Because they can support more/higher union wages/benefits. It's a worthy fight for the members, but there's not much good bringing it to BBR. WE don't care if you make more (but certainly wish you good luck) and by your own account Verizon was a poor caretaker. | |
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| ashworth
join:2001-10-06
Pittsburgh, PA | I think you hit this one the head :
It's not a matter of FairPoint not being able to deliver to customers what they need. It's a matter of FairPoint not delivering to the Union what they may want. | |
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| | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers I agree with what you said 10000%. Why is the Union bitching about it now and never did before? That is what should be asked? | |
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mocycler
Premium
join:2001-01-22
Naperville, IL
·AT&T U-Verse
 ·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers said by hottboiinnc :I agree with what you said 10000%. Why is the Union bitching about it now and never did before? That is what should be asked? Yeah, no kidding.
According to the union's own propaganda, Maine already has some of the worst service in the nation, so how can FairPoint do any worse? They should be glad Verizon wants to bail and hand the business over to someone who actually wants it.
See my previous post...this has utterly nothing to do with what's best for customers.
mocycler | |
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| | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: Union doesn't give a crap about the customers I think the union needs to be told to take a hike and let VZ and Fairpoint move on with business. I'm not a big fan of VZ but if they want out and found someone who wants the network and wants to provide service I see no reason on why not to turn the network over to them and let them do it. Hell they'd be happy probably if AT&T wanted the network since their union. | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by ColorBASIC :Then there is the issue of median and average being different. The median is completely irrelavant. If you have 100 people and 99 of them get 10Mb and 1 gets 1Mb, the median is 5Mb. What "average" available speeds are is more relevant. A really minor point... but median is almost always more relevant than mean. If you have a normal distribution, your median is going to be your mean. If you do not have a normal distribution, then your mean is not very useful as a relative measure.
(Note: You are wrong above... the median in that case is 10Mb.)
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ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
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| schap
join:2000-10-26
Washington, DC
| You couldn't be less informed. I'm afraid that your anti-union bias is clouding your mind. Try reading and doing a little objective research rather than relying on one-sided garbage. The deal is about Verizon being able to get $2.72 billion tax free and dumping copper wire customers.
First. Verizon wants to sell to Fairpoint because it would not have to pay the usual amount of taxes, about $700 million, that a company normally would on a $2.7 billion sale. Fairpoint's value is less in dollar terms than the value of the 1.7 million access lines that it would be receiving from Verizon, so by selling to Fairpoint Verizon can take advantage of a tax loophole called the REVERSE MORRIS TRUST. Fairpoint is a tiny company based in North Carolina of just 600 employees. Other carriers like Century or Embarq would have been better choices, and companies who could handle the job.
Second. Fairpoint even pointed out in its filing to the FCC regarding the proposed sale that there were real possibilities that it could not keep up the existing network in New England to the extent it currently is by Verizon, or have the money to roll-out upgraded services. It also stated that it would be spending about 40 percent less on the network than Verizon does currently.
Third. Verizon would like to dump all of its copper-wire access lines periodi so it can concentrate totally on installing FiOS, which may never be fulling rolled out universally to rural and urban communities. Verizon tried to dump its access lines in update New York state and the move was blocked luckily.
Fourth. Verizon has been fined repeated from Virginia and New York for not fulfulling its repair and upgrading requests from its existing customers.
Fifth. This is about service quality. I guess you haven't noticed how bad customer service, technical support and installation has become in the industry. It's because of companies like Verizon that outsource their work to India or another third world country. They are outsourcing not because union wages are high (they are generally not any higher than what workers get in other similar private sector companies which have not yet outsourced); companies are outsourcing because they can.
Sixth. I hope that you one day will experience the deterioration in service thanks to companies like Verizon whose only concern is profits, not quality service. | |
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Voyager2K2
join:2001-10-04
Wayne, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| Speed Test PA must be at the bottom of the list according to the CWA site's graph of my state (PA). No doubt the large cities skewed the numbers for Maine since that's where most of the population exists.
That said having lived the entire 90's in Biddeford Pool, Portland, Walpole, and Boothbay Maine as a research Biologist you have to understand how rural and poor Maine is off the coast esp. in "The County".
While understanding what a valuable educational tool broadband is, the costs of connecting these areas are insane.
Yup I am sitting here in suburban Philadelphia on a 15/2 FIOS line. But guess what, that was one of the reasons I left Maine. Most of the Mainers I knew understand that you have to give up some of the urban luxuries for the beauty of the state.
A final thought is Maine has some pretty hefty long-distance charges for in-state calls. Keeping VoIP of the table insures those revenues will continue. Just a thought. | |
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jebba2005
join:2005-01-13
Portland, ME | Matters where you live of course. As long as you don't live in the sticks download speeds are fine. I just downgraded from 15/1 for the summer since I am spending very little time at home the next few months. In September I will be back up to this speed. | |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | Maybe Maine should secede and join Canada. | |
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tamovies
join:2007-02-25
Rumford, ME | service As long as FairPoint can provide reliable 3000/768 for 29.99/month or less, ill be happy. | |
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Lil Jon
Premium
join:2006-06-26
Lawrenceville, GA
| Re: service said by tamovies :As long as FairPoint can provide reliable 3000/768 for 29.99/month or less, ill be happy. co-sign | |
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bruins55
@rr.com | They can for about $70.00 a month look at there website and the prices for the towns they do service in Maine. | |
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| | tamovies
join:2007-02-25
Rumford, ME | Re: service What areas does FairPoint service in Maine? | |
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| | | | tamovies
join:2007-02-25
Rumford, ME | Re: service Those prices are awful, looks like it will be GWI(»www.gwi.net) for me. | |
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bruins55
join:2007-06-17
Holderness, NH
| unions I guess myself as a union member have no right to fight for my job and my benefits..I am just suppose to sit back and get what I get. If everyone thinks this deal is such a good deal you may not be reading the right info....Wall Street does not like this deal one bit...and where is Fairpoint coming up with the 900 million to close this deal when they only make 200 million a year now. | |
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bunklung
join:2002-07-13
Northampton, MA
| All union bashing aside... Blah blah blah, unions sucks. If you don't like unions, don't join one.
Back to the topic...
As for the real issue here... FairPoint has said they will NOT be continuing with FIOS/FIOS TV in those states. Now, who does that hurt? The union killed my cat? The consumer!
Please continue to point fingers at the union. Nobody cares. Are those states getting fiber? N O P E. Now cry about that.
There's got to be a I-hate-unions web site around here somewhere. Last I heard, it wasn't this site. | |
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FairPoint Can't Give Maine What It Needs
Relative fewer # of users is the reason
