 
odog
Cable Centric Vendor Biased
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Norcross, GA
clubs: | Can't be that hard.... but that doesn't mean it can't be messed up and end up burning down a house. | |
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B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | From the "No S___, Sherlock" Department
Well of COURSE.... You mean to say Verizon can seriously claim they didn't see this coming?
-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Clue Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT. | |
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| bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Easier said than engineered. | |
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| | cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA | Re: Clue i agree. those phone lines aren't meant to supply power. i think supplying power over phonelines could be dangerous and could degrade other's quality of phone service. | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ
 ·Comcast
edit:
April 1st, @08:34PM
| Re: Clue So most dwellings have two loops, each is 24AWG or thicker. This gauge can safely carry what, maybe 500mA? So with two loops on -48V at 1A we have 48W of usable DC power. If the damn ONT consumes much more, then Al Gore will have much bigger issues with it than replacing lead-acid batteries every 5 years by Joe and Jane Doe. 
We are talking DC power, already provided on these loops to power offhook phones. For the ONT, power supply filters can be put in place (capacitors) so that the ONTs do not interfere with DSL or POTS lines in the same cable. | |
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| | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| Re: Clue 'most dwellings have two loops, each is 24AWG or thicker'
Correction: most dwellings may have two loops, each maybe is 24AWG or thicker.
DC doesn't work that way. It doesn't run like AC which is why Westinghouse won and Edison lost when it came to standardization. You can't transmit DC long distances effectively unless you have high gauge wiring and enough of a step-up to reduce voltage drop. | |
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shdesigns
Powered By Infinite Improbabilty Drive
Premium
join:2000-12-01
Stone Mountain, GA
 ·Atlantic Nexus
| Re: Clue DC transmits better than AC. There are now several DC high-V power lines. They use DC because you don't get the reactive loss of the lines.
The problem with DC on mains power is you can not step it up or down. Edison had to run everything on one voltage because he could not step it up or down. Westinghouse (Tesla) could step up the voltage for lower losses, then step down locally.
As far as the local loop, I have worked with devices powered over 24GA wire. For a device that used about 8W, at 24 volts, the best we could do was about 700' on a single pair and 1000' on 2 pair.
--
Scott Henion
Embedded Systems Consultant, shenion on #ATU @irc.freenode.net
SHDesigns home | |
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| | | | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| Re: Clue Thanks for the info on HVDC.
The way I took it the loss and inability to step effectively is what killed DC because placing power plants locally killed the idea for most Americans. While AC could be transmitted at high voltage and stepped down to low voltage locally.
Either way, that's why I liked BellSouth's FTTC engineering. It used 22ga cabling to power 130VDC systems. I could see an eventual move to FTTH from there could possibly allow for telco provided power to the house (which was within 1kft always). | |
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| | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | And I think you mean diode and not capacitor. | |
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| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| here is the math, lets assume 90v, since thats what a telephone rings at.
90 volts
0.0842 ohms per meter for 24 gauge
60000 feet, FIOS uses BPON, 12 mile limit from central office
90*(90/((60000/3)*0.0842))=4.8 watts
20000feet
90*(90/((20000/3)*0.0842))=14.4 watts
heck, I dont know how RF noise friendly this is, but if we use 2 wires, we can use earth return, and get 2 times what is there, add a 2nd pair, same thing
»fios ont power req
18watts with TV+internet+phone running (not on emergency power), emergency power will be less
so yes its feasible, you'll probably need a new ONT tho, I dont think the current ONTs are as optimized as they could be when running on emergency power, so I dont think it would be as simple as plug battery pigtail of BBU into adapter and 2 screw terminals on the other end of adapter. | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Re: Clue Thank you. Probably the ONTs run on 12V or 6V (additionally downconverted to 5V) so some power conversion and loss will occur. | |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY | The fiber network is replacing the copper network. Why would Verizon wish to maintain 2 different plants?
The copper network is a bear to maintain. | |
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| | xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Clue said by Pathfinder  :The fiber network is replacing the copper network. Why would Verizon wish to maintain 2 different plants? The copper network is a bear to maintain. How so? | |
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| | | Answer Guy
join:2006-07-28
Grass Lake, MI
 ·Alltel Axess
| Re: Clue If you ever get a chance to read documents on proving in an FTTP network from a cost savings standpoint, you should browse the numbers as it makes for some interesting reading. With the rising cost of copper, it makes no sense to maintain two separate cable networks to support battery backups. In fact, that was one of the largest hurdles during the early FTTP deployments. They tried to power units from offices in the late 90's and found it to be to costly.
How many people here still have a corded phone in their home for use during power outages? Most people I know use cordless phones and are thus rendered useless in a power outage situation anyway. | |
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FastiBook
join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
edit:
April 3rd, @08:54AM
| Re: Clue We only have corded phones. Most other data networked phones are entirely dependent on grid power, at least verizon did something about that, unlike comcast, vonage, etc etc...... If i have a question about our battery (which in 2004 lasted 12 hours when our electricity was out for that whole time) i will call verizon and have them answer the questions, instead of setting my house on fire (which you can't do because the adapter won't allow it) I've taken the battery out, put it in, saw how it all worked. My main question would be where does one find a replacement battery.... | |
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| | | | | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
·SONIC.NET
| Re: Clue said by FastiBook :We only have corded phones. Most other data networked phones are entirely dependent on grid power, at least verizon did something about that, unlike comcast, vonage, Nit: my very standard Comcast POTS phone is battery backed up, and I know it works for a fact. Product name CDV. | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Re: Clue My point was that if there is a will, there is a way. It was not that there is a will or any regulation from the gov't to do this. | |
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| | xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by Tzale :said by verolom :Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT. Bad idea... Verizon wants to get rid of copper and sell it off. They don't want to have to maintain a copper infrastructure.. One of the main positives of switching to a fiber optic last mile solution is that it is totally passive between the CO and the ONT... Thus, a lot of the maintenance problems in the past can be eliminated, saving a ton of money. -Tzale You fail to acknowledge that maintaining a copper loop requires Verizon to offer the loop as an unbundled element to competitive local providers on a wholesale basis.
The maintenance savings are elimination of local competition.
»www.techlawjournal.com/topstorie···1215.asp
Passive electronics have been around at least 15 years.
Passive electronics do not equal passive maintenance.
I call bullshit.
If the fiber infrastructure is providing services and customer prem batteries are providing the backup, what maintenance costs are there to leave the copper connected to the customer premises? | |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·CCLHosting
| Re: Clue And what of a cable failure or a tree taking a cable down?
And of the cost of the pressure needed to keep moisture out of the cable? Squirrels, rats, ice?
I know that the fiber will be also be effected by some of this but now 2 crews have to go out to fix it.
Splicing a few fibers is also a lot less time consuming than boarding and splicing a 2400 pair cable.
It is fact. Fiber is easier to maintain. | |
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| | | | xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Clue said by Pathfinder :And what of a cable failure or a tree taking a cable down? And of the cost of the pressure needed to keep moisture out of the cable? Squirrels, rats, ice? I know that the fiber will be also be effected by some of this but now 2 crews have to go out to fix it. Splicing a few fibers is also a lot less time consuming than boarding and splicing a 2400 pair cable. It is fact. Fiber is easier to maintain. Not sure what you are saying.
Trees can take fiber down (for fun search for bees and fiber outage). Rodents chew through things, Fibber is certainly easier 
Why are two crews needed? Sounds doubly expenpensive to maintain!
Yet splicing a fiber is cheaper at lesser cable bundles.
Fiber rocks, but it ain't cheaper...fiber has it's issues (moisture related as well), but I agree it is where the network provider should head. I don't think there is ANY network provider who would disagree or build otherwise... | |
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| | | | | Answer Guy
join:2006-07-28
Grass Lake, MI
·Alltel Axess
| Re: Clue Training two sets of techs and outfitting them with different equipment is costly. The huge cost of copper cable materials puts it in a league all by itself when you compare it to fiber. A 100 pair copper costs 8X the cost of a 96 fiber cable in materials. With copper going up every day, this factor will only increase.
Also, Verizon is making a point of burying the fiber in more areas and avoiding aerial when possible. This puts the cable in less danger of being damaged.
If you were to rebuild an entire office from ground zero, fiber is cheaper to build. But, it is also cheaper to maintain and easier to troubleshoot problems than copper. | |
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| | | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Clue said by Answer Guy :Also, Verizon is making a point of burying the fiber in more areas and avoiding aerial when possible. This puts the cable in less danger of being damaged. FALSE
»www.news12.com/BK/topstories/art···d=194480
»What the hell is going on in Brooklyn? FIOS protest?
They are avoiding it at all costs. Even in Bayside I often see where the copper POTS ducks underground to cross a street between 2 long blocks of houses that are backyard aerial fed, and Verizon added 1 pole on each side walk of the street to be crossed and ran the FIOS feeder aerially. | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs: | They are just going to adopt POOF* later.
Power Over Optical Fiber
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Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
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budice
join:2006-10-18
Huntington Beach, CA | I simply added another UPS Like folks have mentioned, adding another UPS and plugging the BBU into it extends the life. You hear an alarm when the battery is unplugged from the wall outlet. But returns to normal when added to the UPS. | |
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| MrTorben
join:2004-12-14
Tampa, FL | Re: I simply added another UPS ditto, both of my Fios terminals go into the UPS supported extension cord, with the router, AP and server.
add the generator, i managed the last few bad hurricane season in FL without ever losing my connection. | |
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| Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Pittsburgh, PA
| said by budice :Like folks have mentioned, adding another UPS and plugging the BBU into it extends the life. You hear an alarm when the battery is unplugged from the wall outlet. But returns to normal when added to the UPS. Most people don't understand the limitations of the typical $100 or less UPS. Yes it will help but they are really designed to give a few minutes (enough to properly shut down the typical PC) and are severely limited in terms of amp-hours capacity. The ONT may only use 12-20 watts but it's constant and the inverter of a UPS that converts to AC power will also run constantly. There is actually a provision for the Verizon BBU to be connected to an external 12V battery. AFAIK Verizon never implemented that with non-MDU ONTs probably because that battery would also have to be properly charged. In any case the choice of a sealed lead-acid battery shows that Verizon was primarily interested in low cost. | |
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b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA
·Comcast Formerly ..
edit:
April 1st, @01:27PM
| What's the difference? The same battery problem exists when you switch to Comcast's Digital Voice or any other cable companies, phone over cable, VOIP, or whatever they are calling it.
Q: What if my electricity goes out? Will I still be able to use my Comcast Digital Voice service?
A: The eMTA (embedded Mulitmedia Terminal Adapter) Comcast supplies with your Comcast Digital Voice service contains a backup battery designed to power the eMTA for several hours of continuous service. The actual length of battery backup time will depend on the amount of time you use the phone to place outgoing calls during a power outage.
»www.comcastphoneoffers.com/1/faq.php#q03 | |
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| B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | Re: What's the difference? Except that FiOS isn't "whatever" -- FiOS is POTS.
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
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See 31 replies to this post |
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punker
deleted by moderator
Premium
join:2004-06-21
Palmdale, CA
clubs:
 ·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by b10010011 :The same battery problem exists when you switch to Comcast's Digital Voice or any other cable companies, phone over cable, VOIP, or whatever they are calling it. Q: What if my electricity goes out? Will I still be able to use my Comcast Digital Voice service? A: The eMTA (embedded Mulitmedia Terminal Adapter) Comcast supplies with your Comcast Digital Voice service contains a backup battery designed to power the eMTA for several hours of continuous service. The actual length of battery backup time will depend on the amount of time you use the phone to place outgoing calls during a power outage. » www.comcastphoneoffers.com/1/faq.php#q03 battery back up is useless when you got cordless phones
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Underwater bogeyman continues secret mission... | |
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Gary A
join:2008-03-02
Odessa, FL
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Not A Big Deal
Verizon Battery Backup Unit |
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See 21 replies to this post |
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NYDude25
join:2007-08-23
Massapequa, NY | FIOS still sounds better... My cable modem doesn't even have a battery in it  | |
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wifi4milez
In Need Of Garbage Pail Kids 1st Series
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: FIOS still sounds better... said by NYDude25 :My cable modem doesn't even have a battery in it Thats because it doesnt need one. The two are totally different devices, using totally different technologies.
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с новым годом | |
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rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
| Re: FIOS still sounds better... said by wifi4milez :said by NYDude25 :My cable modem doesn't even have a battery in it Thats because it doesnt need one. The two are totally different devices, using totally different technologies. I guess you must have one of those wind-powered cable modems. Wish I had one. There is a lot of wind here sometimes. | |
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wifi4milez
In Need Of Garbage Pail Kids 1st Series
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: FIOS still sounds better... said by rcdailey :said by wifi4milez :said by NYDude25 :My cable modem doesn't even have a battery in it Thats because it doesnt need one. The two are totally different devices, using totally different technologies. I guess you must have one of those wind-powered cable modems. Wish I had one. There is a lot of wind here sometimes. As far as I know, if there is a power failure the entire (localized) cable network goes down, not just the end users. It isnt self powered at the CO level like DSL/FIOS. All the repeaters/amplifiers on the poles require power as well, so if your area is out of power having a "wind powered" cable modem wont help.
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с новым годом | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| They could have done it better. Some sort of standard clip on laptop style battery would have been better. Also maybe .25 a month for replacements sent when the ONT detects the battery will not perform adequately. With shipping back for disposal.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net | |
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TheRul
Been there, didn't do that.
join:2007-09-18
Victorville, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| From an unnamed verizon employee "This one I see as making a mountain out of a mole hill, people will think everything is a hazard. Re-lighting the pilot light on your furnace is a bigger hazard in my eyes "
I agree with this. Grandma can ask her grandchild to do it.
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Morituri Nolumus Mori
(Those of us about to die, Dont want to!) | |
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Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Panama City, FL
·Comcast
| Re: From an unnamed verizon employee Exactly. Grandma probably cant change the battery in her car either, but that doesnt mean she shouldnt own one. (Driving ability aside)
Hell, at the store I work at, people have come in to have me change the battery on thier cordless phone. Most people who feel that a task is above them or just dont feel comfortable doing it, will find someone who is to do it for them. | |
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N3OGH
They both suck, we're so screwed
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| I totally agree with you.
Any hay made over this issue is hype IMHO.
People have a lot of things in their house they can't fix themselves. Heck, the last 10 years of her life my grandmother was housebound and I had to do her grocery shopping.
My sister couldn't fix the faulty valve in her toilet (I would say taking a crap might be a little more of a necessity than making a phone call, but anyway). She called me to fix it for her.
She could have called a plumber to fix it, but she decided to save a few bucks and have me do it.
I'm sure just about anyone who's ordering FiOS is going to have someone in their life that can help them with such things.
Of course, there is always and exception to every rule, but for the most part, I think this is a red herring...
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… | |
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JimF
join:2003-06-15
Allentown, PA
| All are equal Whether it turns out to be easy or not, I can assure you that in all of the discussions Verizon had on the subject, no one ever dared to suggest that women (or even older people) might have a harder time of it than men. That would not be politically correct. All people are created equal, and that is that. | |
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Mchart
Tech Control
join:2004-01-21
Gurnee, IL | Re: FIOS wins in a blackout I would assume that if your cable modem, and whatever related VOIP cable equipment on a UPS, it would work just fine. The battery in the FIOS box is basically doing the same thing. | |
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fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: FIOS wins in a blackout You'd think, but in my area, I have my cable modem on my UPS and when the power goes out in my area, so does my cable modem connection. Sure my cable modem still has blinky lights but it has nothing to talk to.  | |
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| MOTO6809
join:2007-11-05
Springfield, MA
| said by PhoenixDown :During the big north east blackout, my cable service went out. I assume any cable provided voip was out too. FIOS at least has the battery backup and while it may only last a few hours -- its a few hours more than the cable co provides. I had my power go out for 9 hrs and my MTA lasted about 5.5hrs appox.
We didn't make any calls during that time and that may have helped with extending the life of the battery. The battery was less than 1 year old to. | |
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dadkins
Living on a Blu Planet
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Depends on how widespread the poweroutage is, and whether or not there is a *working* backup at the headend(or where ever).
I had a power outage 2 nights ago(1 hour) CATV was out(laptop - battery - TV tuner built-in)
CDV still worked fine.
As always, YMMV.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:
edit:
April 1st, @02:06PM
| Re: solar alternative If they can market it and make money, I am sure they will do it.
Which makes complete sense. Original build out of the telephone infrastructure required battery backup from the CO to power phones during time of power outages and other disaster situations. Now, monopolistic phone companies that are greedy for nothing but the bottom line redesign the system everyone is used to having where the phone company provides the power for uptime. Now the end user must be responsible for the power for their phone to work and must be semi-techinically knowledgeable to maintain it. | |
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| cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA
| the only problem is that when the power goes out there is a very good chance that the sun isn't shining so brightly. from what i can remember, every time the power went out, it was during some sort of storm in which the sun was covered up by clouds. i think a solar panel would only give a false sense of security. there seems to be to many unknown factors that have to align just right for it to work. then there is the issue of something that i like to call 'night'. | |
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irishfiber
@motorola.com
| No one mentioned cordless phones Battery or not, there is another threat - the fact most people no longer have a simple corded phone in the house. FiOS may work, but the phone itself is out. No techies need discuss "plugging into another backup". John and Jane Doe's of the world don't have them. During the Northeast blackout, most of the complaints of loss of dial tone were in fact due to no corded phone in the house. | |
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KA3SGM
- -... ...- -
Premium
join:2006-01-17
West Chester, PA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
| Brainless Battery Replacement... For anyone that is technically inclined, a battery swap is a simple process that takes only a minute or so.
Most of the people here on BBR are probably technically minded enough to be able to replace their backup battery without a problem.
But figure that there are probably half their customers that don't even realize there is a battery backup at all, and would have a hard time finding it, let alone replacing it.
They really screwed up in choosing a Lead Acid Battery, over something like Nickel Metal Hydride(Ni-MH) or Lithium Ion.
Sure, Lead-Acid is cheap and simple, but they should have thought about it a bit more, and considered alternate technologies.
Those batteries offer an extreme improvement over Lead Acid technology in the fact that they provide more than 10 times the capacity to weight ratio(meaning that such a battery would easily power the ONT for a number of days, instead of only 8 hours), and would last more in the neighborhood 10-15 years, unlike the 2-5 year life of the Lead Acid ones.
Depending if the BBU is located in an attic or a garage, if the battery is not maintained in the 60 to 70 degree temperature range, the battery life is severely shortened to possibly less than 1 year.
There is an environmental impact as well, because Joe Sixpack will likely toss the old battery into the regular trash can, leaving toxic lead going to the Landfill or Incinerator, instead of being properly returned and recycled.
In the future, maybe they will design a modular Lithium Polymer battery into the next generation of BBU's that will last for 15 years, and simply plugs and unplugs like a cartridge, so anyone could easily figure it out, and there is no messing with wires and tabs on the lead acid batteries.
Maybe someone will even develop a green option add-on, where the ONT is always powered by the battery, and a solar panel placed outside keeps the battery fully charged.
Since the ONT only draws about 20 watts of power, the solar option is well within the price range that anyone could afford.
Now who will be the first one with a Hybrid ONT???
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"Lithium is no longer available on credit" | |
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FiOS ONT Batteries An Achilles Heel?
