  major marco Res Firma Mitescere Nescit Premium join:2003-02-13 Stepford, CA clubs:
| What's the IQ level of a corporate shill? Former FCC Commissioner Deborah Tate, who worked at the FCC until earlier this year, stirred up some geek angst recently by tying World of Warcraft to the college drop out rate. Ever notice how technical understanding deficiency levels, particularly in tools like Tate, are inversely proportional to how well the tool is connected to the industry they whore for. The deeper the political connection goes to the industry, the closer to zero the technical knowledge is. Industry whores like Tate should be forced to take a Computers & Internet 101 class at her local library, but then that would completely defeat the purpose of a whore, wouldn't it. -- The Toll
Tracking Lord Stanley
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 |   DrModem Premium join:2006-10-19 USA | Re: What's the IQ level of a corporate shill? It's easier to blatantly spread lies if you don't know you're lying. | |
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 |   firefox Premium join:2000-12-03 San Jose, CA | It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect.  | |
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 |  gorehound
join:2009-06-19 Portland, ME | ZERO !!!! they belong in an asylum or better yet a jail for trying to ripoff and fleece all of us consumers. | |
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 |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: What's the IQ level of a corporate shill? said by gorehound :ZERO !!!! they belong in an asylum or better yet a jail for trying to ripoff and fleece all of us consumers. They need to go back to selling 7 figure glass wall condos in the ghetto and fixing financing for the buyers. | |
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 |   JohnQPublic Premium join:2002-03-22 Xanadu
| quote: Why not provide consumers the freedom to monitor and control their own use -- and to benefit from volume-based rate packages?
You have to give her credit for throwing in the word freedom. Our nation was built on the ideals of metered billing. | |
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 |   Harddrive Premium join:2000-09-20 Norwich, CT
| you know what's worse than a politician? a politician turned lobbyist. she, as well as all the others, are uneducated scum being paid off by corporations. but that's what lobbyist are anyway. -- I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and i'm all outta bubblegum. | |
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 phantom6294
join:2002-02-27 Abingdon, MD
·Comcast
| Devil is in the details... As always... the devil is in the details.
I do not have a fundamental problem with notion of metered billing. In essence, that is similar to what we have with cell phones. On my plan, I get 450 Minutes to use to call non-Verizon Wireless customers during certain times of the week. If I exceed those minutes I pay for each additional minute.
The problem I have... is that ISPs don't seem to be able to prove a desperate business case for moving to metered billing, beyond further increasing their profits (which, isn't, in and of itself, a bad thing). Since it seems most of the ISPs are doing just fine with unlimited (or relatively reasonable or high caps [i.e. Comcast]) usage paradigms at their current prices, suddenly capping usage at ridiculously low levels and maintaining the monthly cost is absurd. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that said move is nothing but an attempt at gouging.
Instead, if an ISP said... they were going to reduce the basic cost of having service to say $10 and then charge a (reasonable) amount per gigabyte... then I could believe the ISP really had grandma's interests in mind. Rather, it seems most ISPs are going to keep Grandma's and everyone else's rate the same and tack on (insane) per gigabyte overage fees. It seems Grandma aint' going to be paying anything less than she already is... and why Grandma can see clear as day the ISP doesn't really care about her occasional/lite internet use. | |
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 |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by phantom6294 :Instead, if an ISP said... they were going to reduce the basic cost of having service to say $10 and then charge a (reasonable) amount per gigabyte... then I could believe the ISP really had grandma's interests in mind. If I were responsible for transitioning consumer billing from flat rate to metering and the public persuasion that goes along with it, I would incrementally raise the rates across the board for flat rate billing, while providing a "discount" back to the normal rate to entice customers to opt into metered billing. That way the ISP increases their revenue and leaves the metered billing decision to the customer. And if ISPs really need to cover pay TV lost revenue, they can continue to raise rates for the flat rate billing to "force" consumers into metered billing. It's a strategy that would need to happen over the course of a few years, not months or days, but ultimately it give the consumer choice. | |
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 |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by openbox9 :said by phantom6294 :Instead, if an ISP said... they were going to reduce the basic cost of having service to say $10 and then charge a (reasonable) amount per gigabyte... then I could believe the ISP really had grandma's interests in mind. If I were responsible for transitioning consumer billing from flat rate to metering and the public persuasion that goes along with it, I would incrementally raise the rates across the board for flat rate billing, while providing a "discount" back to the normal rate to entice customers to opt into metered billing. That way the ISP increases their revenue and leaves the metered billing decision to the customer. And if ISPs really need to cover pay TV lost revenue, they can continue to raise rates for the flat rate billing to "force" consumers into metered billing. It's a strategy that would need to happen over the course of a few years, not months or days, but ultimately it give the consumer choice. Yes RAISE rates. Especially in this economy. So basically what you are saying is the ISP should fuck people over for a few years then fuck them over again by making them think they are getting a "discount" when they are paying what they would have been paying anyways.
Most ISP also offer TV. Now if they are going to play games then I'll either cut back on my internet or cut back on my TV. So they are going to LOSE revenue somewhere if they decide to be cute. So why bother? Besides they make enough with their bullshit fees anyways. | |
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 |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Devil is in the details... "This economy" hasn't shown an impact to the number of customers, or the prices they're willing to pay for service, so that's a non-issue as of now.
One of the arguments against metered billing around this forum is that it doesn't provide any perceived consumer benefit. If consumers actually have a choice to pay up for flat rate billing or save money with metered billing, how is that not a good thing in the eyes of consumers? Besides, based on numerous remarks on this forum, when metered billing finally gets here, a lot of DSLR users will be paying more anyway, so why not have a choice of how much more we'll have to pay? | |
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 |  |  |  |   NOVA_Guy Obama- Commander in Thief Premium join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| Re: Devil is in the details... The problem that I have with this proposal is that it doesn't leave anybody in the position of paying even a dime less than what they are paying now.
From what I'm hearing, you would support the idea of raising flat fee ISP rates, and providing a false "discount" back to the current rates of today for anyone voluntarily switching over to a metered billing system.
If you couple that with the widespread assumption that metered billing will eventually lead to people paying even more, then what eventually becomes reality is that under either system ISPs wind up making substantially more than they are today for providing the same exact service.
That, in this consumer's opinion, is an unreasonable expectation. I would prefer to stick with Comcast at the moment, but if they tried something like this I'd drop them and pick up DSL in their place. Sure, it's slower; but I'd wind up paying less too. -- It took Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves. And it's taking Barack Obama to enslave the free. The Obama Administration: as transparent as my grandmother's flannel nightgown. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by NOVA_Guy :If you couple that with the widespread assumption that metered billing will eventually lead to people paying even more, then what eventually becomes reality is that under either system ISPs wind up making substantially more than they are today for providing the same exact service. ISPs stand to grow revenue which enables increased reinvestment into infrastructure and customer support.said by NOVA_Guy :I would prefer to stick with Comcast at the moment, but if they tried something like this I'd drop them and pick up DSL in their place. Sure, it's slower; but I'd wind up paying less too. The big boys are making a push for consumption based billing, whether it be metering, caps, or most likely a combination. If the push is successful, I don't think you'll have a choice when the dust settles. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   S_engineer
join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL
·Comcast
| Re: Devil is in the details... I don't for minute believe that an increased revenue will be directed towards infrastructure, especially since the billions in profits they're making now aren't filtering towards upgrades (e.g Time Warner). There also seems to be a trend away from their original argument. which was that metered billing relieves congestion, when it does no such thing. And if they were to allow for patches for OS's, and programs, then they also must allow for advertisements through DNS redirection that nobody wants to see. This is all crap....a made up crisis to allow the implementation of a more profitable billing system. They oversold, so now they want you to pay more and receive less! -- BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils! | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
1 edit | said by openbox9 :said by NOVA_Guy :If you couple that with the widespread assumption that metered billing will eventually lead to people paying even more, then what eventually becomes reality is that under either system ISPs wind up making substantially more than they are today for providing the same exact service. ISPs stand to grow revenue which enables increased reinvestment into infrastructure and customer support. Man if you believe that I have several gold mines in Florida I wish to sell you. they have revenue NOW coming in that they aren't reinvesting. Go look at TW financials and their statements about NOT upgrading to docsis 3.0
ISPs like to bring up electricity and water as reasons why they should be able to have metered billing. Last time I checked both are very regulated and the ISPs want to have nothing to do with that. Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by BF69 :Man if you believe that I have several gold mines in Florida I wish to sell you. No thank you, I've lived in FL before. | |
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 |  |
 |  |  sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24 Cleveland, OH
| Re: Devil is in the details... The institution of tiered pricing should not be allowed until there is significant competition in every territory. Significant denotes at least 4 ISPs offering very similar product.
Otherwise, a return to dark age early 90's usage based pricing should be predicated on turning the internet into a highly regulated utility. | |
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 |  |  |   john131971
join:2003-05-05 Louisville, KY | Re: Devil is in the details... Believe that's the game plan! | |
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 |  |  |
 |  |  |   RR User
@rr.com
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by Mr Matt :Right now one does not know if or when the operating system or applications are going to down a 200Kb patch or a 200Mb Service Pack. Subscribers might stop installing patches to avoid using up their monthly allocation. .. If Acrobat Reader requires a 10Mb Security Patch then the user/subscriber should be allowed to decide whether or not to download the patch. Of course this may result in many un-patched systems with security holes. Lets at 200 Mb you'd hit a 5 GB limit after 50 updates... If there was a $1 per GB overlimit fee, you'd pay 20cents extra. Last I heard MS or any software provider doesn't push out 50 general release patches a month.
Worrying about The 10 MB patch is laughable... 1000 patches a month if you got a 5 GB limit...
And 200k.... are you really worried?
So many users on this site are pissed at these caps when they have no clue how much or little they use in relation to any proposed caps... | |
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 |  |  |  |   w0g o.O
join:2001-08-30 Portland, OR clubs:
·Clearwire Wireless
| Re: Devil is in the details... I just installed Windows XP three times this weekend and the updates I had to get were over 1GB/install. You might not get far in this 5GB/cap era if you build a new machine or two... -- Opera is now free! Highly recommended if you're still using IE or Firefox. | |
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 |  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| said by Mr Matt :Right now one does not know if or when the operating system or applications are going to down a 200Kb patch or a 200Mb Service Pack. Subscribers might stop installing patches to avoid using up their monthly allocation. Botnet FTW!
What is worse if one access the wrong website the subscriber might be linked to some advertisers website downloading 6Mb per minute of crap without their knowledge.
Oh yeah, I've seen webmasters that put up 2 paused streaming video flash ads that do a silent animation then minimize back to their box with a paused video downloading in background, and then 1 auto play streaming video flash (usually fortune 500 tv ad). Then users will be wondering why all the bandwidth to check the weather or sports scores.
Measured service should be illegal until operating systems, applications and websites are updated to indicate to the subscriber how much data an operation will download and a method to cancel an operation before it starts. If Acrobat Reader requires a 10Mb Security Patch then the user/subscriber should be allowed to decide whether or not to download the patch. Of course this may result in many un-patched systems with security holes. Yep, one good thing is, suddenly there will be a dead serious reason for developers to control the insane software bloat today. If it runs fine on the most expensive fastest quad core, and looks snazzy to the CEO, its a hit. 99% of computer/internet tasks would be fine on a 700 mhz Pentium 3, if software and web developers stopped the bloat. Will we ever have the days of this »www.litepc.com/98micro.html again? (except please make it NT series so it doesn't crash every day). A modern cellphone OS is more bloated and needs more hardware than Windows 2000 it seems to me nowadays. Pathetic. | |
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 |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| said by GOLFnSUN :The trick is in setting the "Fixed portion" rate(say $10/mo) and then setting the variable use rate. I used no natural gas one month, and I get hit with a $25 bill. My electrical bill is $20 right off the bat, then per kwh "regulatory fees" created by the state PUC to pay the power company to maintain its own network. | |
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 |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| said by phantom6294 :As always... the devil is in the details. I do not have a fundamental problem with notion of metered billing. In essence, that is similar to what we have with cell phones. On my plan, I get 450 Minutes to use to call non-Verizon Wireless customers during certain times of the week. If I exceed those minutes I pay for each additional minute. yes and Verizon gives you nights and week-ends free. Do ISPs have such plan to offer cap free times? If congestion is an issue then convincing people to use their conection for downloading larger files durring non busy times would help would it not? So who plans on offering these? No one I know of. | |
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 |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by BF69 :If congestion is an issue then convincing people to use their conection for downloading larger files durring non busy times would help would it not? So who plans on offering these? No one I know of. I've seen a few smaller ISPs around with caps that open things up in the wee hours of the morning and other "non-primetimes". Although Comcast is metering your usage, my understanding of their congestion management system essentially does what you're discussing. | |
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 |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Devil is in the details... said by openbox9 :said by BF69 :If congestion is an issue then convincing people to use their conection for downloading larger files durring non busy times would help would it not? So who plans on offering these? No one I know of. I've seen a few smaller ISPs around with caps that open things up in the wee hours of the morning and other "non-primetimes". Although Comcast is metering your usage, my understanding of their congestion management system essentially does what you're discussing. So comcast takes my download and delays it to 2 AM? Um I think not. | |
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 |  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA | Re: Devil is in the details... No, but they manage congestion during peak time by throttling the users that are causing the congestion. | |
|
  SomeoneTriedThat
@tn.gov
from: whfsdude 
| Tiered billing has been tried In the '90s AOL had tiered billing and started bleeding customers to the flat-rate ISPs by the late '90s. By the time AOL went flat-rate, they were too far gone.
Many users used their flat-rate ISPs for most of their internet activity and used the AOL "Bring Your Own Internet" rate plan for access to the AOL-specific content.
Let the major carriers have their tiered pricing as long as you protect wholesale ISP resellers from anti-competitive business practices by the majors. Then the majors will see most of their revenue derived from wholesale bandwidth rather than the more profitable retail market.
Perhaps we would be better off if the major carriers concentrated on fattening the backbone pipes and providing city-wide, county-wide, and state-wide infrastructure and let CLECs provide the customer service and retail accounts.  | |
|
 sheezyfromba
join:2002-08-03 Las Vegas, NV
| I would like to see the 'Grandma service' when I see the cap Everytime they have introdoced caps with ridiculously low caps they never have also introduced the 5 dollar teir for ultra-light users. They always hav the same tiers just with overages, yeah thanks for helping us out there. I would not mind if the usage meters were closer to a cell phone. I pay around 60 a month for my internet and around 70 for my phone minutes (dont get me started on my pda data $ rate). But most carriers also now offer an unlimited tier for around a 100 bucks. I would pay a $100 for a reasonably speedy service that is unlimited, but they had better not stimulate what I do on the line such as hosting my own web page or watching hulu. | |
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  GlobalMind Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy Premium join:2001-10-29 Hollywood, FL
| FAIL, and FAIL alike As I tweeted earlier....
Dear ISP shills: Metered billing has nothing to do with customer choice & control, and we all know it. #FAIL
Metered is about extracting max dollars while not upgrading networks. While optimization is laudable and good, screwing customers over in the process all under the guise of "consumer choice" isn't.
Until I can effectively sue for misappropriation of my bandwidth by spammers, etc which would cause my bill to increase to download their crap, metered billing is an epic fail.
I am curious how she takes to paying for minutes used by telemarketers who call her mobile phone. -- TheGlobalMind.com / Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? / Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. - Ralph Waldo Emerson / Free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity. | |
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 |  See 6 replies to this post |
|
 me1212
join:2008-11-20 Pleasant Hill, MO
·VOIPo
| Questions! Why isn't it fair for grandmas to pay the same if THEY ARE PAYING FOR SPEED? They can't say charging $20 for 768/384 un-caped is NOT profitable enough when in Korea for $2 a month you can get 2Mbps/512Kbps, that is 128k MORE upload and 2m=2048k which is 256k LESS than than 3 times 768k so they charge 10 TIMES the price and give you almost 3x less DL and 25% less UL and they STILL don't make enough money??? You know I think smaller ISPs may have a boom soon, I mean yeah they may have to charge more but with ISPs like TW and ATT cap and metering while STILL charging for speed when the overages kick in the smaller ISPs may be less costly. | |
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  SLD Premium join:2002-04-17 | All I can say is... OMGWIN!!! | |
|
 eri3k
join:2009-07-10 Walnut Creek, CA
| Of course they should bill based on usage... I absolutely agree with Ms. Tate. People should pay for what they use.
Since these companies are primarily motivated by a sense of fairness, I'm sure they want to extend this principle to the television side of the business. Why should I, a working professional who watches little TV, pay the same as a grandmother who stays home and watches Perry Mason all day? My TV bill should be prorated based on the number of hours I actually use it. | |
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 |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| Re: Of course they should bill based on usage... said by eri3k :I absolutely agree with Ms. Tate. People should pay for what they use. Since these companies are primarily motivated by a sense of fairness, I'm sure they want to extend this principle to the television side of the business. Why should I, a working professional who watches little TV, pay the same as a grandmother who stays home and watches Perry Mason all day? My TV bill should be prorated based on the number of hours I actually use it. Ironic isn't how they want to be "fair" to those that use less internet, but absolutely are dead set against ala carte for TV for those of use who juts want a few channels. Somehow it's unfair for a light internet user to subsidize a heavy user but it's ok for a light TV watcher to subsidize the heavy watchers. | |
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 |  |  eri3k
join:2009-07-10 Walnut Creek, CA | Re: Of course they should bill based on usage... That's not a bad idea for legislation: ISPs that also offer TV can start metered internet billing after they introduce an ala carte television option. I wonder how many of the companies that are so gung-ho for metering would get behind that bill. | |
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 |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Of course they should bill based on usage... said by eri3k :I wonder how many of the companies that are so gung-ho for metering would get behind that bill. Probably all of them right after they spin off their TV subsidiaries  | |
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  dathing
join:2002-01-09 Sykesville, MD | 768k DSL is the Grandma tier. 768k DSL is commonly offered for around $14.99. Isn't that already the Grandma tier? | |
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 |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: 768k DSL is the Grandma tier. said by dathing :768k DSL is commonly offered for around $14.99. Isn't that already the Grandma tier? DSL is a joke in the USA due to decrepit copper, sprawl and subdivisions built miles from COs and phone companies that throw up Copper T1 fed DLCs which can never do DSL to serve all the new sprawl. Cable is king in the USA for internet. | |
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 |  |   dathing
join:2002-01-09 Sykesville, MD
| Re: 768k DSL is the Grandma tier. said by patcat88 :said by dathing :768k DSL is commonly offered for around $14.99. Isn't that already the Grandma tier? DSL is a joke in the USA due to decrepit copper, sprawl and subdivisions built miles from COs and phone companies that throw up Copper T1 fed DLCs which can never do DSL to serve all the new sprawl. Cable is king in the USA for internet. That's a bit of a generalization. I suffered through several years of poor cablemodem service in our area. DSL proved to be a very stable and welcome solution.
As with anything else, your milage may vary. | |
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 aerith Premium join:2008-12-31 Milpitas, CA
| Well, guess who appointed Ms. Tate to the FCC? The Bush Hitler Jr (SHBUH, Sieg Heil Be Upon Him). On top of that, she liked DRM, and doesn't like what the Hero Party is doing, what a b-i-itch...
These are what the "Psychopaths" want, MORE regulation that benefits themselves.
Case in point: Mike Pence (Psychopath-IN) wants to pass the "Broadcaster Freedom Act" (a.k.a. the Broadcaster Fascism Act) which will ONLY benefit Psychopathic Talk Radio (i.e. Limpballs) and not GOOD talk radio (i.e. Mike Malloy)
Why? Mike Pence wants the current FCC AM Radio Rules to be "as of right now, as is" and to no longer bring up the "Fairness Doctrine"
The current FCC AM Radio Rules suck, just like the FCC Regulated Dial Up Rules (maximum 53k), and the "stupid market" broadband rules, if there are any.
All in all, the FCC is a very poor Government Organization, but I don't think it should be abolished, it should only be runned by Democrats, and needs to have lots of fixing. | |
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 |   Homer J Mmmm, Free Goo
join:2000-10-05 Springfield
| Re: Well, guess who appointed Ms. Tate to the FCC? Hmmmm seems the radio stations should be able to play whatever programing works for them. Conservative talk radio like like Limbaugh works and makes them money. So they have them on the air. Liberal talk radio is a failure, thus no one wants to play it. Air America was such a rousing success lets throw some more money away. If people listened to liberal talk radio it would be on the air. No one listens so it is not. Something is needed to offset liberal places like CNN, MSNBC and others. You obviously have issues with people with conservative thoughts, and can not show them the respect to type their correct names. Name calling like that is rather childish and typical of a liberal. | |
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  dvd536 as Mr. Pink as they come Premium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ | Metered billing is all about. . . . . THE BENJAMINS! Show us the $$$Money$$$ | |
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 jkeelsnc
join:2008-08-22 Boone, NC
| Tate, etc This is BS. Tate needs her behind kicked up between her shoulders. Along with the industry. I am tired of hearing BS like this. The industry is not F'ing hurting. They don't need help to further their own corporate plans by the FCC. That is they don't need the FCC to accomodate their corporate plans.
The government is supposed to protect the people or at least create regulations and policy that are beneficial. Instead, these A$$&*^%$ sleep in the same bed with them. Not all government initiatives are a bad thing. But supporting metered billing on behalf of the ISP's is BS.
Well, I have not disappeared and I and many others still have our pens waiting to write our representatives the moment something isn't right with the internet policy or the ISP's. I am not afraid to tell them where to stick it. Whether it is a politician or a company.
I, for one, am not technically ignorant unlike some people who make policy.
Have a nice evening. | |
|
 kingofdsl
join:2002-12-11 Afton, OK | Charge Lobbyists like Tate like Madoff Charge Lobbyists like Tate like Madoff and watch how quickly this crap stops | |
|
 ebubman
join:2002-01-17 Enola, PA
·Comcast
·Vonage
| another politician on the take? what??? another politician on the take??? looking to line her pockets vis a vis the top shelf pay for play model championed by pa governor ed rendell? these folks personify the reason that we cover our backsides when we hear the phrase "i'm from the government and i'm here to help you...". | |
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