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G2 Comes With A Free 'Rootkit'
Designed to prevent users from jailbreaking device

According to the New American Foundation, the freshly-launched HTC G2 on T-Mobile comes with an interesting secret: an embedded system that prevents G2 owners from jailbreaking the device. According to the group, should a user try to customize their phone, an embedded rootkit (though the group appears to use this term loosely) jumps into action and will re-install the default Android version, and all of the carriers settings and restrictions. The Foundation isn't particularly impressed:

quote:
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Clearly, this is a major new initiative to control users rights to run their computers as they see fit. Instead, the new Google Android hardware rootkit acts just like a virus -- overriding user's preferences to change settings and software to conform to the desires of a third party. And just like a virus, this kind of behavior should be just as illegal. Users of the new Google Android G2 should be warned that their device has a rootkit that will overwrite their software modifications.
It's a little amusing that an organization partially founded by Google executives is criticizing a Google mobile OS that has traditionally been praised as open. These kinds of restrictions help the device, OS and phone company retain control under the "threat" of an open wireless ecosystem.

Of course people are going to try (and likely succeed) to jailbreak the device anyway; this thread is full of people already hard at work trying to circumnavigate the protections.
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Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese

Premium Member

Wasn't it just ruled that....

This was not breaking any kind of law by rooting? If so, T-Mobile may have an issue with this?

heat84
DSLR Influencer
join:2004-03-11
Delray Beach, FL

1 edit

heat84

Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by Cheese:

This was not breaking any kind of law by rooting? If so, T-Mobile may have an issue with this?
Jailbreaking and rooting are like card counting. Not illegal but the casinos frown upon it. In both cases the money lost is a fraction of what is made by the companies/casinos, so its a waste of time for them to even care. Although jailbreaking and rooting are much easier than hacking and anybody can do them. But its still mostly geeks that do it. A fraction of the users.

Someone will get around the rootkit before I click the Post Now! button anyway.

Pirate515
Premium Member
join:2001-01-22
Brooklyn, NY

Pirate515

Premium Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by heat84:
said by Cheese:

This was not breaking any kind of law by rooting? If so, T-Mobile may have an issue with this?
Jailbreaking and rooting are like card counting. Not illegal but the casinos frown upon it. In both cases the money lost is a fraction of what is made by the companies/casinos, so its a waste of time for them to even care. Although jailbreaking and rooting are much easier than hacking and anybody can do them. But its still mostly geeks that do it. A fraction of the users.

Someone will get around the rootkit before I click the Post Now! button anyway.
Not sure about casinos and card counting, but have you seen 21? In that movie, they definitely cared about card counting. Since it's not illegal, they cannot have one(s) they caught counting arrested, but they are still 100% within their rights to kick them out. Casinos are private property and therefore can throw anyone off it if they see them doing something that they don't like, or for no reason at all.

I think it works the same way with jailbreaking phones. While it has been ruled that it's not illegal; therefore the phone manufacturer or the phone company cannot take any action against you if they catch you jailbreaking your phone. However, they can deny you warranty or any other kind of repairs if you brick your phone as a result of doing so. Of course, 99.9% of jailbreakers know how to restore their phone to stock firmware if they do manage to brick it, so it's really a non-issue for them.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4 to Cheese

Member

to Cheese
from my understanding and the way the issue was worded as far as jailbreaking being illegal was only from the Copyright office and not the actual courts.

Cheese
Premium Member
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL

Cheese

Premium Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by hottboiinnc4:

from my understanding and the way the issue was worded as far as jailbreaking being illegal was only from the Copyright office and not the actual courts.
I was under the impression it did not break any DCMA from the recent court ruling. Maybe I read it wrong.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

1 recommendation

hottboiinnc4

Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

the problem is the court's haven't heard anything yet from the way a lot of the paper work was filed and read/typed/prepared. It was just the Copyright office putting their 2cents in and recommended to the courts for future laws. But we all know how that works and the Copyright office and the courts. The $$$ of all the companies that want to protect their phones will prevail and all the customers will be where they are at now, stuck with an OS that is locked and the carriers will force more updates that lock down the phones even further or go back to a locked OS from the start.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

The copyright office of the library of congress is actually designated by the DMCA to make exceptions to the DMCA. They carry the full force of law behind them, just as anything else in CFR.

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

1 edit

vpoko to hottboiinnc4

Premium Member

to hottboiinnc4
said by hottboiinnc4:

from my understanding and the way the issue was worded as far as jailbreaking being illegal was only from the Copyright office and not the actual courts.
Correct, there was no court ruling, but the statute (the DMCA) gives the library of congress the authority to decide whether certain behavior violates the law. They have ruled that under the statute, it doesn't, which would preclude any prosecution under the DMCA for rooting.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4

Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

right. which makes it still up to the carrier to decide until the courts decide.

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

vpoko

Premium Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by hottboiinnc4:

right. which makes it still up to the carrier to decide until the courts decide.
No, the courts will not be involved here because the ruling pre-empts prosecution of any individuals under the DMCA for rooting their phones.

The ruling does not, nor was it meant to, address the carriers' right to block rooting through technical means, it simply precludes prosecution.
hottboiinnc4
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

hottboiinnc4

Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

which still does nothing and no law will be created. so it still gives the carriers the upper hand to do what they wish with the phone and its operating system.

vpoko
Premium Member
join:2003-07-03
Boston, MA

1 edit

1 recommendation

vpoko

Premium Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by hottboiinnc4:

which still does nothing and no law will be created. so it still gives the carriers the upper hand to do what they wish with the phone and its operating system.
Well, yeah, they're the ones developing it, they have the right to *try* to lock it down. I like open systems, but I would be 100% against a law that prevented developers and manufacturers from developing and manufacturing however they please, including building in restrictions. I just contend that I should not be prosecuted or sued for trying to get around their restrictions.

You're way off your rocker if you think that you have a moral right to decide how another company designs their product, not going to happen. Don't want it, don't buy it.

texans20
Premium Member
join:2002-09-28
Texas!

texans20 to Cheese

Premium Member

to Cheese
The ruling says T-Mobile can't take any legal action against people who root or try to root. It does not state T-Mobile has to allow rooting.

Basically it makes the cat and mouse game legal, but the companies are still free to lock down their devices.

So far they have been successful in rooting most every Android phone.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by texans20:


Basically it makes the cat and mouse game legal, but the companies are still free to lock down their devices.
Correct. The law doesn't say the vendor can't lock down their devices - IF THEY CAN DO SO SUCCESSFULLY. It only says that those who can bypass the lock down haven't broken the law.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

N3OGH to texans20

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to texans20
Any lock, or lock down device devised by humans can eventually be broken by other humans.

It's only a matter of brains, talent, and time.

Thespis
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Premium Member
join:2004-08-03
Keller, TX

Thespis

Premium Member

Re: Wasn't it just ruled that....

said by N3OGH:

Any lock, or lock down device devised by humans can eventually be broken by other humans.

It's only a matter of brains, talent, and time.
Yes, but if breaking the lock also breaks the functionality of the device, what have you gained?

nklb
Premium Member
join:2000-11-17
Ann Arbor, MI

1 recommendation

nklb

Premium Member

doesn't sound like a root kit to me

I don't know if I would consider reverting itself to a pre-defined safe state is what I would consider a "root kit".

It sounds more like that "deep freeze" hardware that is often used in large computer labs so that if a computer gets infected or modified, all that has to be done is reboot and it's back in a good state.

Granted, in this case the user may not WANT this protection, but I think that is more or less the intention here.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: doesn't sound like a root kit to me

said by nklb:

I don't know if I would consider reverting itself to a pre-defined safe state is what I would consider a "root kit".

It sounds more like that "deep freeze" hardware that is often used in large computer labs so that if a computer gets infected or modified, all that has to be done is reboot and it's back in a good state.

Granted, in this case the user may not WANT this protection, but I think that is more or less the intention here.
Yes, the use of the term rootkit is just an inflammatory term used by the blog to cast a negative light on the vendor protecting their device from modification.
Expand your moderator at work
ctggzg
Premium Member
join:2005-02-11
USA

1 recommendation

ctggzg

Premium Member

Biased and stupid

They already lost a lot of credibility by using the negatively connotated word "rootkit". I suppose my Firefox browser is Trojan malware because it checks for updates. And read the comments below the "article".

DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
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join:2000-05-14
Hedgesville, WV
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DataDoc

Premium Member

Re: Biased and stupid

said by ctggzg:

They already lost a lot of credibility by using the negatively connotated word "rootkit". I suppose my Firefox browser is Trojan malware because it checks for updates. And read the comments below the "article".
But it doesn't make itself the default browser unless you give it permission. Big difference.

Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
Premium Member
join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC

Jahntassa

Premium Member

Wait, what are they criticizing?

It's a little amusing that an organization partially founded by Google executives is criticizing a Google mobile OS that has traditionally been praised as open.
It sounds like they're criticizing the creators of the 'rootkit', which in this case is most likely something created for / by T-Mobile. Not the OS itself.

TuxRaiderPen
A Warm Embrace
join:2009-06-02
Outer Rim

TuxRaiderPen

Member

Re: Wait, what are they criticizing?

That's exactly who should be criticized, the carrier for allowing the so-called "rootkit" and the creators (which may be one in the same).

The software itself could actually be useful if modified to "reset" your device IF you choose to do so, not without your consent. The OS is irrelevant, the matter at hand is whether or not you can modify the software on your device.

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium Member
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO

tiger72 to Jahntassa

Premium Member

to Jahntassa
Agreed. This rootkit was most likely requested by T-Mobile (like they requested the removal of tethering from their Android 2.2 build).

Actually, looking at it from that perspective, one of the first things I do when I root my phone is install wireless/wired tethering apps. They probably are worried about more people doing the same thing. Tethering on a 7.2 device is one thing. maybe they're more concerned about the negative effects that tethering could have on the 14mbps G2.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Wait, what are they criticizing?

said by tiger72:

Tethering on a 7.2 device is one thing. maybe they're more concerned about the negative effects that tethering could have on the 14mbps G2.
Ever heard of IMEI spoofing?

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium Member
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO

tiger72

Premium Member

Re: Wait, what are they criticizing?

said by patcat88:
said by tiger72:

Tethering on a 7.2 device is one thing. maybe they're more concerned about the negative effects that tethering could have on the 14mbps G2.
Ever heard of IMEI spoofing?
Yep. Haven't cared to do it myself, but from what I can tell from HowardForums, it aint very common for a reason.

SLD
Premium Member
join:2002-04-17
San Francisco, CA

SLD

Premium Member

Of course!

Of course!

seaman
Premium Member
join:2000-12-08
Seattle, WA

seaman

Premium Member

Things I wont be buying myself this Christmas!

1. T Mobile
2. HTC G2
3. Possibly Android
Big Dawg 23
join:2002-03-27
Northfield, MN

Big Dawg 23

Member

Re: Things I wont be buying myself this Christmas!

Everyone needs to relax. They said the Droid X wasn't going to be rooted and it was in 7 days. They also said rom adjustments wouldn't happen yet you can. The only thing on the Droid X that can't be done is a complete customized rom.

Just like all other things this will be figured out. I think this rootkit was done by T-Mo and not HTC.
iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX

iansltx

Member

There will be a workaround

The }2 is tii big of atarget not to get rooted. Enough said.
bnceo
join:2007-10-11
Bel Air, MD

bnceo

Member

Why Palm WebOS is still King

I continue to laugh at all these Android fanboys who say that it's SOOOOOOOO open when constantly manufacturers continue to hinder the OS.

So far, only Palm's WebOS is fully open and in fact, encouraged by Palm themselves. You name another hardware maker who has actively preached the good name of homebrew and the community to allow us to patch and OC our devices without worry.

So while you guys get suckered into rooting with leak builds, I'll just type in the Konami code and run my Pre at 1ghz without problems. =)

•••••••••••••••••••••••
cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

cornelius785

Member

When will they learn?

The only thing that will come out of this is slightly ticked off customers (or potential customers) and a even larger drive by the hacking community to root the device and remove the 'rootkit'.

Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if someone find a security vulnerability for malicious software.
TheGuvnor9
join:2006-06-23
Beverly Hills, CA

TheGuvnor9

Member

Re: When will they learn?

No, this is about:

Customers potentially circumventing the OS to provide services not covered under contract (ways to tether)

Customers returning their handsets because they fried them whilst running runaway apps.

The second one is really the biggest concern because, ideally if this is an open source software, then you can argue in court that the carrier cannot prevent you from installing whatever you want. However, the carrier can and will say that the user is ultimately at fault. The biggest issue is when this runaway software cripples the emergency call functionality. Now we are talking some serious dollars.

We live in a litigious society and it's always someone else's fault.

Majestik
World Traveler
Premium Member
join:2001-05-11
Tulsa, OK

Majestik to cornelius785

Premium Member

to cornelius785
I doubt if it would matter with the average consumer.

mustang03282
join:2003-01-10
Bridgeton, NJ

mustang03282

Member

Is this a root kit

sounds to me like the phone is just auto enabling the recovery when it detects a problem. Wouldnt this be a good thing for the less the tech smart customers? As for us people that like to run alternative roms and root our phones its just a matter of time till we can find a way to put our own recover img on it. The thing wasnt even officially released till today and there is already a temp root for it. Im sure it wont be long for a perm fix.

jeisenberg
New Year's Eve
join:2001-07-06
Windsor, ON

jeisenberg

Member

Re: Is this a root kit

You beat me to it! I personally like the idea of self-healing software, capable of checking its integrity and correcting any corruption that occurs.

I realize this can be implemented in a sinister fashion (for example evercookies), but in general, for a consumer level device that most people will NOT want modified, I'd much rather have a phone that can fix software glitches on its own, rather than having to go to the store to get it fixed.
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

1 recommendation

ISurfTooMuch

Member

Let's define "open"

People hear the word "open" and get all googly-eyed over whatever is being discussed, so let's set the record straight. Yes, Android is open, but that doesn't mean its open to end users. It's open to hardware developers to use and modify as they see fit. They may choose to deploy it in such a way that is open to modification by end users, or they may choose to lock it down, but that is their choice, and all that "openness" doesn't filter down to the users unless the hardware makers want it to.

If you want to experience the openness of Android, build your phone from scratch, and you can do pretty much whatever you like with it. And that was the point. Google wanted Android to be wdely adopted, so they threw it out there for any phone makers to use, but they placed few restrictions on how they implemented it or how they locked it down. So you, as an end-user, are one level too far down the food chain. You can use Android if you can get it to run on a given piece of hardware, but the hardware makers are under no obligation to help you, and, in fact, they will likely throw up barriers in your way.

Not that I'm saying any of this is consumer-friendly, but these are the cold hard facts.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Let's define "open"

said by ISurfTooMuch:

If you want to experience the openness of Android, build your phone from scratch, and you can do pretty much whatever you like with it.
The cabal won't license the patents to me. Try again.
chgo_man99
join:2010-01-01
Sunnyvale, CA

chgo_man99

Member

greed

Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A

- Gordon Gekko

rotfl
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: greed

Is there anything false or unrealistic in that quote? Because regardless of personal beliefs, I do believe that greed has inspired great many progresses in our society, and will continue to do so. Yes, if unchecked, greed can be unhealthy, but overall, greed is an excellent motivator.

cpsycho
join:2008-06-03
Treadeu Land

cpsycho

Member

Who's Phone?

My stance is who's phone is it. If you buy a phone its yours you may do what ever you wish with it.

••••••

Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
Premium Member
join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC

Jahntassa

Premium Member

Claims of 'Rootkit' a bit overblown

According to Android Central.

»www.androidcentral.com/t ··· -hacking
it appears that the G2 has a fail-safe partition that will restore the system files upon reboot if they are corrupted. If you root the G2 and start monkeying around, a reboot takes you back to square one, because you've corrupted the system.
Also:
The New America Foundation is the blog that "broke" this story -- even though the thread and folks they reference at XDA-Developers are in agreement that they're full of it. But hey, hits are hits right? I have to question their agenda, especially when I see that the chairman of their board is none other than Eric Schmidt. Yes, the same Eric Schmidt who happens to be CEO of Google.
Honestly it sounds more like what Tivo did with the Tivo2's, back when there was a large community of Tivo-modders.

Alcohol
Premium Member
join:2003-05-26
Climax, MI

Alcohol

Premium Member

Re: Claims of 'Rootkit' a bit overblown

Very disappointing. HTC phones were the best because they were customizable.

This is a shameful. As soon as HTC started making billions in profits (»www.engadget.com/2010/10 ··· o-2-45b/) it started doing the same things it differentiated from.

RiseAbove
Premium Member
join:2004-01-30

RiseAbove

Premium Member

There is no rootkit people

»www.androidcentral.com/t ··· -hacking

They did the leg work on researching this and concluded there is no rootkit so please bring the paranoia down a notch.

Alcohol
Premium Member
join:2003-05-26
Climax, MI

Alcohol

Premium Member

Re: There is no rootkit people

That twitter picture turned out to be fake.
estover4
Premium Member
join:2004-03-16
Valencia, PA

estover4

Premium Member

Int the world of can't......

Gotta love it!! So hows that G-thing working out for you Snoop?
And my idevices get bashed for being locked down.

Tomek
Premium Member
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY

Tomek

Premium Member

Sony rootkit

I wonder if from legal point of view, that feature be treated as malware and HTC/Tmobile sued for "damages"?
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88

Member

Re: Sony rootkit

Oh hell yeah. If it deletes 1 "financial" document
TheMayor
join:2002-05-09

TheMayor

Member

Will people root, if there is enough internal memory ?

Wasn't one of the main reason's people wanted to root their G1's, was because the G1 has squat for internal memory to install apps?

IMO, I'm thinking if they were smart enough to put a bunch of internal memory to install apps, I'm not sure if too many will care about rooting.

Noah Vail
Oh God please no.
Premium Member
join:2004-12-10
SouthAmerica

Noah Vail

Premium Member

Not Rootkit, Recovery Partition

Looks like the phone has an isolated recovery partition. At the moment, no one's sure how to alter it w/o bricking the phone.

Also, image updates are signed (don't know which hash); which is all the phone will accept.
There's talk of a test signature, but either it's ineffective or lacks permanence.

At this point, they're all still picking around the perimeter. Doesn't look like they've got a solid lead yet.

I imagine they will. Go Go Go Go Go Go......

NV

Drunkula
Premium Member
join:2000-06-12
Denton, TX

Drunkula

Premium Member

Not like a virus

"just like a virus"? Does it self-replicate and spread to other devices? It's not just like a virus. Some writers use that analogy too loosely.
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