Game Industry: Broadband is Holding us Back Latency, Slow Connections Still a Problem The video game industry is frustrated with the lack of adequate broadband speed across the globe. While we've made great strides on that front (remember how bad Valve's Steam used to be in the younger days of broadband?), Eidos President Ian Livingstone recently told conference attendees that the game industry was "fighting broadband." The biggest problem is that broadband speeds aren't keeping pace with the growing size of downloadable games and patches, but Livingstone said the industry is also still struggling with high latency connections a decade after lingo like "HPB" and "LPB" exited the gamer lexicon. "We have to worry about broadband when we should be thinking about making better games," says the Eidos boss.
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  baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI
 ·Comcast
| Disagree Halo 4 (really halo 6), gears of war 3, resident evil 6, call of duty 11, madden 26.......
No new ideas.
Same day DLC, DLC in general, $60 for a game that takes 4 hours to beat. Cannot resell with downloaded content.
Terrible pricing model.
DRM, requiring an internet connection, laggy servers.
Un-openess to consumers..
The gaming industry is holding the gaming industry back. Fix your problems, then start blaming other people. | |
|  |  bbeesleyVIP
join:2003-08-07
Richardson, TX
kudos:5 | Re: Disagree said by baineschile:The gaming industry is holding the gaming industry back. Fix your problems, then start blaming other people.
I concur, if you aren't designing your software to work correctly at 80-100ms latency - which isn't all that uncommon - , then you are just requiring your customers to have high-cost, dedicated connections to ensure they can have an SLA.
Code for the network, don't expect the entire network to change for your code. | |
| | | | | Re: Disagree honestly depends on the game. fps games with lag compensation really suck-see battlefield 3 for a good example of this
even games like world of warcraft have incredibly laggy netcode (or server architecture, i don't know). in wow, players with 50ms delay would still see 250-400ms delay on actions which is completely absurd
i agree that it sucks to be at a disadvantage if you have high latency, but ultimately it doesn't make sense to continue catering to bad conditions. basically every great and long-lasting multiplayer game has a great netcode that doesn't "average out" the difference between a low-latency player and a high-latency player. | |
| | | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
·Comcast
| Re: Disagree To be fair though, some companies are creating decent games latency-wise. The one I primarily play, League of Legends, is based in LA (so 60ms ping from here) but, as long as your connection isn't as jittery as all get out, plays reasonably well up to 200ms, though below 100ms is preferably and I can tell the difference between 100ms and 60ms. | |
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| | | | Please.
You're looking at the flip side of the same coin and can't even see it?
proper coding for the game to handle latency is a result of latency.
The game designer is at fault for US broadband being seriously crippled? I'd say no. Them having to program for it as a result literally does affect how games function in a variety of scenarios.
Yes, they do have to program for it, but it's unfortunate. In reality, 80-100ms latency barely exists. The reality of the matter is that if you have 80-100ms latency to your first hop, congratulations, you're not posting on dslreports. | |
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| Cole
join:2011-08-12
Sun Prairie, WI | I agree mostly but it'll not change until the enough people STOP using the terrible pricing model.
I always hated the 4hr FPS argument as I don't know anyone who buys a FPS for the 1P experience. Either pay the price up front or pay a sub. | |
| | | baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI | Re: Disagree Agree about the FPS, but I am more on the lines of games like Dead Island and Star Wars Force Unleashed 2. Neither really was made for online play, and could be beaten under 10 hours. | |
| | | | | | Re: Disagree said by baineschile:Agree about the FPS, but I am more on the lines of games like Dead Island and Star Wars Force Unleashed 2. Neither really was made for online play, and could be beaten under 10 hours.
TFU - both of them, could be done in 4. Both games were disappointing. The fact that you can get through them in such a fashion shows the linearity of games which has been a trend for the better part of the past decade. | |
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| | | | said by Cole:I always hated the 4hr FPS argument as I don't know anyone who buys a FPS for the 1P experience. Now you do. I couldn't care less about multiplayer. I want a good story and a sizeable mission count.
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Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty - Ronald Reagan | |
| | |  ArrayListnetbus developerPremium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL | Dr. Freeman is waiting for you.. in the test chamber. | |
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| | | | ArrayListnetbus developerPremium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL | Re: Disagree the code isn't the problem. the problem is the media that goes with the code. | |
| | | | kevinds
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:1 | Re: Disagree The media, like buying Skyrim on a DVD, starting to install it, and then having Steam download the entire game, instead of using the bloody DVD in the drive.
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Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel. | |
| | | | | ArrayListnetbus developerPremium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL | Re: Disagree I can understand if you have capped internet. I don't have that problem. | |
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| | Kamus
join:2011-01-27
El Paso, TX
1 edit | said by Linklist 
And how about coding games that can work well without being huge and demanding massive bandwidth. Have programmers lost the art of writing efficient code, instead of just fast, easy coding.
Technologies that are information based topically double in speed and/or capacity every 2 years or so.
The gaming industry is influenced by this fact quite a bit.
last mile service providers seem to somehow be the exception to the rule. And it isn't holding back just gaming developers.
But as always, one way or another even this "broadband problem" will be solved by exponential growth. Stay tuned... | |
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|  Smith6612Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:22
·Verizon Online DSL
·Frontier Communi..
| Much of those seem to apply to consoles, but of course the trend is also moving towards PCs as well. The laggy servers part on the PCs are usually not a concern unless the person who owns the server has overloaded it, or their box is being attacked which is not uncommon for some games. Otherwise, for the very few games that have released without a Multiplayer server client but have required the use of just a single Game Server Provider, those are often the worst to play on as far as lag is concerned, since the GSP chosen is often not the best host out there. Peer-to-peer game hosting however is a good issue to bring up if that is what the gaming industry is talking about, as upload speeds and latency still are pretty poor in that regard. Then again, make better netcode. If your game is only pulling in 3KB/s, it should not lag. If however, you have a game eating up nearly a Megabit of traffic per player, which for some does happen, it's either a game that is really well optimized for running on lossy connections (sending redundant data), has a lot going on, or is poor optimized for the amount of activity that needs to go through to the client and server.
For pricing model, Steam has the idea with their sales. They often times have the lowest prices for games that are sold in big box stores. The one thing about them though is, of course, the DRM model they have. You cannot resell your games or for that matter, DLC without selling your entire Steam account (which VALVe does not like). Also if Steam goes down, Offline mode still has not been perfected, and it still requires one login from that computer for the player.
But I do agree on the game content. Games should not be shipping first day with some content unlocked, with other already-packaged game files that need to be unlocked by paying more on top of your $60. Or, for that matter with little content period. Good games need to be long, present a challenge, run well (not be some crappy port from the Xbox to the PC, or vice versa) and also not become a band-wagoner with hopping onto the DLC train too soon. If it takes the game 4+ years to come out like Black Mesa did with side projects, but turns out good then so be it. It'll be groundbreaking news for a while. | |
| |  aaronwtPremium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
 ·Verizon FiOS
| said by baineschile:Halo 4 (really halo 6), gears of war 3, resident evil 6, call of duty 11, madden 26.......
No new ideas.
..............
No different than the movie and TV industry where most stuff is just regurgitated from previous decades. | |
| | | | said by baineschile:DRM, requiring an internet connection, laggy servers. And for games like D3, server lag/DC that kill your hardcore-mode player even while you are playing solo. Perfect example of how online DRMe can completely destroy some people's interest in a game.
Same goes for half the games on Google Play that store game saves online, which means that no internet = no play, rendering those games useless while on the move unless you want to burn your mobile data plan. | |
| | | | I'll start with blaming the service providers. Thanks.
I used to get ~66ms latency on my realm in WoW years back. Now because of whatever AT&T did it rarely goes below 300ms for several years now. Not only that, its also incredibly unstable and inconsistent.
The funny part is that certain instances have the latency I should be getting. Just not anything new or the world/battlegrounds.
It has been repeatedly reported and from 3 different cities. AT&T is one of the last providers I want to hear about a game using. TERA's isn't much better.
Latency has been the #1 killer of enjoying many games lately. There is times where the game is at fault, majority of the time it isn't. | |
| | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
·Comcast
| Re: Disagree ...which is why I'm glad that my primary game uses InterNAP out of LA. Granted, I could build them a better network blend than what they have (add in some NLayer and AboveNet) however I've never had issues causing extreme latency from a backbone perspective (and, lately, no issues on the last mile either). | |
|
Reviews:
·Comcast
| Cable quality requires maintenance Tell me about it. I have worked for Kabletown (read between the lines there) for 5 years. The Signal-to-Noise Ratios (or SNR) are KEY. Over the years my DownStream SNR has usually been fine [I can connect to others hosting games]. DS SNR can be seen on most modems by going to 192.168.100.1. However UpStream SNR can only be seen from the back offices, and most folks that work there don't know to check it. This signal affects hosting, file uploads, etc. Experienced Technicians (level 4+ with many years experience) know to look for this but rarely think about it. I had to keep on top of my local mainline crew for a year-and-a-half before it was fixed well enough. I can finally host Xbox games & my file uploads don't fail as much anymore.
*If you think customers get treated badly =try working there. I just recently left the company because I couldn't take being constantly reactive and rarely proactive. I was an in-house tech for 3 years and then moved into "tech support for the techs" the Day Of Job department. It is amazing that Kabletown has so much technology and potential but lets their red-tape prevent them from making great strides. In the meantime; full departments are staffed with solving problems that could be prevented with proper software testing and better training.
I tried (with some success) to improve the level of service a major part of the East Coast.
-But-
In the end management got tired of me holding them accountable from a subordinate position and we parted ways. | |
| |  ddg4005Premium
join:2001-08-22
Bronx, NY | Re: Cable quality requires maintenance If the game developers made better games they'd make more money. These industry bastards have no imagination today and it shows in the games they make.
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A man must have a code -Bunk | |
| | | | | Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Cable quality requires maintenance continuous pings will reveal dropped packets. uploading files will reveal failures from the web server. hosting games to peers who cannot connect. all symptoms. at least enough to get a tech to have the back office at least look at US SnR. (at last check, Kabletown was training the front end customer service to know a lot more [their training class is called "Extreme Troubleshooting"; which i nicknamed "my daily job 101"])
if you call in customer service can see the US SnR from within their software called "GrandSlam" ,or "Scout Monitor", or "WatchTower". | |
| | | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 | Re: Cable quality requires maintenance The question is whether TWC has that particular software just like...erm...Kabletown. I assume yes, since they'll still have Cisco/Arris/Moto CMTSes, but I could be wrong. | |
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| | Required Online DRM The video game industry is frustrated with broadband because they want to required it to play all of their games. That's what the real story is. No more used games, shared games, rented games, etc. That's what the video game industry sees as the ideal future. | |
| | ArrayListnetbus developerPremium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL | Re: Required Online DRM when I pay no more than $15 for a game, I can't complain. | |
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| | Digital Distrbution Guess the plans to phase out physical media is going to have to wait a few more years. The gaming industry would love to destroy the secondary used game market. No physical disc? No resale later. | |
| |  BF69Premium
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN | Re: Digital Distrbution said by Killersaurus:Guess the plans to phase out physical media is going to have to wait a few more years. The gaming industry would love to destroy the secondary used game market. No physical disc? No resale later.
Ever have a disc get scratched? Every have a disc drive go out on you? No disc drive, none of these problems. Also cost of said gaming system goes down. Less power need further reducing cost. Less cooling needs reducing costs further.
Most people here deriding digital distribution do that on their PCs ALL THE TIME. No wait let me guess you all still buy CDs then convert them.  | |
| | | | | Re: Digital Distrbution Digital distribution destroys the concept of ownership of media. Everything is reduced to a license to play. You can swamp me with legalese telling me that's all we have now, but that is not true in the practical sense. You're trading a disc drive for a much larger hard drive and an always-on internet connection. I don't think the savings are there and that they're worth what you're giving up. imo. | |
| | | | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
·Comcast
| Re: Digital Distrbution The delivery cost for a 4GB game (we'll assume it's small enough to fit onto a single DVD) is maybe 40 cents over a nice, expensive CDN these days. Double that if someone loses the game and has to reinstall. That amount won't even pay for the disc and jewel case for a boxed version of the game, let alone transportation etc. of the good.
If licensing for digital content starts to make sense, and pricing of said content becomes more in line with the cost to provide it, then we've got a model that everyone can agree with.
Heck, I already agree with it. I would much rather download a game and play it (whether straight or by mounting a disc image via DaemonTools) than fiddle with a disc. Then again, I have a 2TB hard drive on my primary computer, which will be replaced by a computer with a 2TB HDD and a 256GB SSD tomorrow. | |
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| | mogamer
join:2011-04-20
Royal Oak, MI | said by BF69:said by Killersaurus:Guess the plans to phase out physical media is going to have to wait a few more years. The gaming industry would love to destroy the secondary used game market. No physical disc? No resale later.
Ever have a disc get scratched? Every have a disc drive go out on you? No disc drive, none of these problems. Also cost of said gaming system goes down. Less power need further reducing cost. Less cooling needs reducing costs further. Most people here deriding digital distribution do that on their PCs ALL THE TIME. No wait let me guess you all still buy CDs then convert them. I'm still playing games that are disc that are 20 years old. How many companies will keep servers open for games they're no longer seeing any money from? I admit most aren't like me, but to take away that option is BS. The gaming industry has pushed online not only as a form of drm, but to "encourage" people to get the newest games by making it impossible to fully play your older games. Just look at EA. Multiplayer is only available through their servers. Which they just happen to shut down after a couple of years.
For pc's, there really isn't much choice other than dd's. So I do my best to buy drm-free versions of games (Amazon and GOG have been pretty good here) and back them up. And then there are cracks for other games. It's too bad that trying to back-up drm infected games technically makes me a criminal. But oh well. Oh and as far as music. I sure do buy CD's and convert them. FLAC is much better than what Apple or Amazon sells. | |
| | | | | said by BF69:said by Killersaurus:Guess the plans to phase out physical media is going to have to wait a few more years. The gaming industry would love to destroy the secondary used game market. No physical disc? No resale later.
Ever have a disc get scratched? Every have a disc drive go out on you? No disc drive, none of these problems. Also cost of said gaming system goes down. Less power need further reducing cost. Less cooling needs reducing costs further. Most people here deriding digital distribution do that on their PCs ALL THE TIME. No wait let me guess you all still buy CDs then convert them. Oh, I don't think so. Certainly not on the console market.
I can typically get a new release, disc based, PS3/X360 game for $10-20 off full retail, at or within a few weeks of launch. I pre-ordered a bunch of games during E3, and they were $39.99 retail after discounts.
Those same games are available digitally for $59.99, and with Playstation Plus you can get a whopping $6 discount.
Unfortunately, by the time my ISP gets their share for data transfer, than can easily eat up the $6 discount.
On top of that, I can provide dozens of examples of digital games that are more than $20 extra than the retail counterparts - a great example is Darkness II, released on PSN for $39.99 this week. That game is over 6 mo old, and has been $19.99 in stores.
None of the above even considers the resale - while I tend to keep many games, I can trade or sell physical copies. Digital is worthless to anyone other than me once purchased. Factor that in, and digital copies are at least twice as expensive as retail, if not more.
So, no sir, digital distribution is a gaming company wet dream. Overpriced, zero resale value, and cuts out the retail store completely. No sales, no need to clear shelf space.
There is NO argument that can be made that digital distribution will in any way benefit the consumer, or lower costs overall. | |
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 El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:2
·TekSavvy DSL
 ·WIND Mobile
| Glass Houses I'll take it with a grain of salt, because it's Eidos, and they've done their share of DRM crimes, but he's right in some ways. A bigger pipe would open up more possibilities for gaming that's for sure, and it would open up lots of possibilities for other stuff too.
Although I'd like to see improvements in broadband (we should be shooting for ubiquitous 1 Gbps, or a least 100 Mbps) the gaming industry would do well to fix its own problems, and addressing consumer concerns before pointing the finger at broadband.
Get your own house in order.
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Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have | |
| Reviews:
·Mediacom
| Don't blame the pipe, blame the lack of content Broadband isn't holding the gaming industry back, the gaming industry is holding the gaming industry back.
Poor design, high charges ($60 for a new game, really?) , lack of ingenuity, lack of creativity, poor follow through, and failure to adapt. Yeah, THAT is the gaming industry in a nutshell. That's also WHY they are being 'held back'. | |
| | baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI | Re: Don't blame the pipe, blame the lack of content echo, echo, echo.... | |
| | | | overall game prices have gone down in the last 20 years.
look it up.
and all of these alleged problems:
said by twhiting9275:Poor design,... lack of ingenuity, lack of creativity, poor follow through, and failure to adapt. are patently false.
i swear the majority of the people in this thread don't actually follow the games industry. | |
| | | Reviews:
·Mediacom
| Re: Don't blame the pipe, blame the lack of content said by LucasLee:overall game prices have gone down in the last 20 years. Wrong
$60 for a game is not "going down", it's "going up", way, way up. Example.... The prices of video games in 2006
»www.jjgames.com/static/images/20···2007.PNG
Again, wrong
You want examples? Fine
Mass Effect 3
Dragon Age 2
SWTOR
These are ALL suffering from the exact thing that I listed, poor design, lack of ingenuity and creativity, VERY poor follow through and failure to adapt. Of course there's more, but each and every one of those has the same exact problem.
next time, don't comment on things you don't understand | |
| | | | | | Re: Don't blame the pipe, blame the lack of content said by twhiting9275:$60 for a game is not "going down", it's "going up", way, way up. Example.... The prices of video games in 2006
2006 is not "back in the day". it was the launch of the current console generation. i hate to call out your age, but i have to believe you're less than 20 years old based on that comment alone.
take a look at the attached image. game prices were higher in the 80s and 90s, especially when adjusted for inflation.
NES games were the equivalent of 59.79-99.65
SNES games were the equivalent of 80.17-96.21
again, you're age is showing if you don't remember this.
said by twhiting9275:Again, wrong
You want examples? Fine
Mass Effect 3
Dragon Age 2
SWTOR
three of those games are the same genre and from the same developer. if all you play is the equivalent of Madden every year then i'm unsurprized you think games are derivative.
the industry is very large and you'd be better served by remembering that citing bioware rpgs and licensed lego games is clear evidence you're cherry picking your data.
want an example of a creative new game? look up Curiosity.
as an aside, just because Hollywood remakes and reuses franchises all the time (ie The Amazing Spiderman), that doesn't prevent original new stories from being told (ie. Looper).
said by twhiting9275:These are ALL suffering from the exact thing that I listed, poor design, lack of ingenuity and creativity, VERY poor follow through and failure to adapt. Of course there's more, but each and every one of those has the same exact problem. i suppose Mass Effect 3 adding a Free-to-play style multiplayer system isn't a creative example of ingenuity within the action rpg landscape?
said by twhiting9275:next time, don't comment on things you don't understand
sigh, i'd continue to call attention to your ignorance, but i think you've done a fine job yourself. | |
|
| | agreed A lot of short sighted commentary in here. Its not just the competitive network data that needs low latency. There are many games with in game VoIP not as well as sandbox style games where the time in game "ticks" for all players connected to the world and if we all don't "tick" together there is warping and worse (cheating). MMO's, Battlefield series, simulation, and more all use this general time code to make sure the playing field is all fair for everyone. This facet is why XBL and PSN are successful as they control their core networks, PC games must handle that in the game and not in a game service.
Yes broadband speed is stifling innovation. | |
| |  DolganPremium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
·Charter
| Re: agreed quote:
Yes broadband speed is stifling innovation
No, it isn't. Developers pushing out incomplete/broken games and crappy coding would be the 2 main causes. Most games are only transferring data to play in Kb/sec streams and not even coming close to maxing out even a basic DSL connection. The latency issues are caused by overloaded networks and routers-- the low FPS is related, but is equally caused by endusers who do not know how to configure their systems and/or have crappy hardware. | |
| | | | | Re: agreed Its not about the speed or the size but the latency, and when you fix latency you usually have a higher speed. They kind of go together. Well sorry we disagree but I've been doing game dev since Mechwarrior 2 and latency was a killer then and it still is now. | |
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| baineschile2600 ways to livePremium
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI Reviews:
·Comcast
| Thumbs down. Broadband speed has doubled (or so) every 3 years for as long as i can remember. it comes down to one, ultimate reason
PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY GAMES WITHOUT BEING CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET.
ATTs lack of DSL upgrades does suck, but if there wasnt the online requirement, there wouldnt be an issue. If people WANT to play online, then yes, a good internet connection is needed.
I cant really blame the game makers, as since people can no longer share games, and pirating is much more difficult, it protects their business interest, but for gods sake, put some damn thought into a game before release. Day 1 DLC is a HORRENDOUS precendet. It aggervates gamers who are WILLING to spend if the price is right. Look at Steam and Valve. People still play Warcraft 3 (5600 people on last night), and nintendo characters are as popuar as ever. If you create a game that people love, they will love you back. | |
|
elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA | So do something about it! If online gaming, Netflix, Apple 4K TV, "Stop the Cap"and other industries aren't happy with the state of broadband, they should, like Google, invest in the last mile deployment of FTTH as an overbuilder, and see if they can offer their "better" broadband at a price point people will actually buy, or at least, stop supporting "neutrality" efforts, and instead, buy performance for their clients. | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
 PacketeersPremium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
kudos:1
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
| TERA Online is a great example of this problem Tera Online was originally developed for the Korean market which has ISP's on average 3 times faster and wider then broadband in USA. When they brought that game over to NA/EU the biggest headaches were the FPS problems when you screen got busy with content. However I think game designers are partially to blame because in Korea the game played fine but in NA/EU it was a laggy mess - so yes, developers can blame it on poor ISP's but you can also blame it on poor developers who ported over a game from a country with superior ISPs - so what did you really expect would happen - they should have adjusted some of the game content to play better on a slower ISP but they neglected to do so, so players suffer while the gamer provider blames it on the ISPs. I'm not a game programmer but it's easy to see while playing this game how they could have turned off some of the effects and secondary action, or clever ways to discourage many players from congregating in one spot, in order to keep the main action of the game running smoother on slower ISP's, but they didn't bother at all. | |
| | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: TERA Online is a great example of this problem uhm FPS is not latency or even related to the network at all. you could get 120fps and still have a 800ms ping.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
| | | PacketeersPremium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
kudos:1 Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
3 edits | Re: TERA Online is a great example of this problem so what, who cares whether it was latency or throughput or dropped packet or poor routing issues;
the point is the code was not optimized for the ISP landscape it would be played on - the developers fault not the ISP's.
and crying because games are bigger so they require bigger downloads - that's just stupid. game makers are glad they don't have to lose money on the overhead needed to print disks and ship them out - they make pure profit off of downloads and still bitch about ISPs? please... cry me a river. anyone getting a game does not blame his ISP cause the game is 10GB bigger than the last one he bought - he's just glad for the extra quantity or quality of content. | |
|
| | Latency I can sort of see the game industry's point of view when it comes to latency issues. Take a 100 latency, that really turns into at least double that because you have to factor in the round trip time it takes to get data to the server and back. It could be 200+ latency by the time you get data to update your game world. I know Source games use lag compensation which tries to deal with latency issues and make the game world more "real-time". People may complain, "hey make better netcode", but don't realize they already have. Lag comp might not be the most rock solid best system around but it has worked well for Valve many years. | |
| |  RRedlineRated RPremium
join:2002-05-15
Williamsport, PA | Re: Latency said by sandman_1:I can sort of see the game industry's point of view when it comes to latency issues. Take a 100 latency, that really turns into at least double that because you have to factor in the round trip time it takes to get data to the server and back. It could be 200+ latency by the time you get data to update your game world. I know Source games use lag compensation which tries to deal with latency issues and make the game world more "real-time". People may complain, "hey make better netcode", but don't realize they already have. Lag comp might not be the most rock solid best system around but it has worked well for Valve many years.
Latency is a measurement of round trip communication. I'm not following why you say "double that."
Another thing to consider here is that there are still MILLIONS of people in the US who have no alternative to dial-up other than satellite, which is unusable for gaming and probably always will be. Not only is broadband in general not very good here, but there are still MILLIONS of people who can't even get bad broadband.
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One nation, under Zod! | |
| | | | | Re: Latency You are right. Although it can mean both, Source uses round trip time. I stand corrected.
Totally agree with your other point. | |
|
 SnakeoilIgnore Button. The coward's feature.Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·magicjack.com
| There are two sides to this coin. Number has been hit upon pretty well, in this thread. The lack of interesting games. Games are also getting to expensive for the value they return.
Heck there are free porn sites that give more entertainment value compared to a game priced at 60 bucks.
The other side of the coin is usage caps. With the Internet companies wanting to/or already have in place.
Why should I buy a game from steam for 40 bucks. Then download it and have it eat into my imposed cap?
Sure the pipes are narrow, but also the amount you can use is low.
Improve that, and the games that are being made, then maybe I'll start buying.
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Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?. | |
| | | | Re: There are two sides to this coin. both the game dev need to fix their own crap. but also solid connection of internet for house is another thing | |
|
 mmay149qPremium
join:2009-03-05
Dallas, TX
kudos:48 | I wonder Just how many of these "Broadband issues" are actually people not having proper network management inside the home or etc? For instance Little Johnny is playing Halo 4 while Software ABC on his computer is updating and syncing with the cloud. Or Johnny never configured QoS on his router to have video game traffic as the top 3 in priority. (Can do this with my DLink) Or Johnny is trying to play Halo 4 while Mom and dad watch Netflix, and Johnny's little sister Susie is streaming YouTube while playing on Facebook and downloading MP3's.
Personally myself I NEVER have connection lag sometimes I have HARDWARE lag because I need to upgrade my PC, but never connection lag. Now granted I'm pretty sure this is referring to consoles and not PC's, but even when I was playing the X-Box 360 on a regular basis I never had many issues with connection lag, probably due to the fact I had the 35/35 on FiOS though, and now it's 75/35, so good luck in "holding me back"
Yes I understand most people won't know what QoS is, however I feel this should be a simplified setup option when configuring a new router, even ISP's could sell this idea, for a small fee, during the install window of the service the tech could "optimize" your connection for your habits. Just have a check list of things you do online, and how often after a short conversation, and then decide the order of top priority to last. So if you like to stream movies and play games then the X-Box traffic and streaming channels are set to the top 2. Or if you just check email, amazon, facebook, and some minor Netflix then Email and web-browsing could be top 2 and streaming 3 since email/browsing doesn't really use much bandwidth to begin with.
Matt
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Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. -Albert Einstein | |
| SukunaiPremium
join:2008-05-07
kudos:1 Reviews:
·ELECTRONICBOX
·TekSavvy DSL
| I kinda pity non wargaming mainstream gaming Ok, so ya bought the latest the greatest the omg got it at midnight launch game, and in a month it is yesterday's news, everyone has beaten it or max leveled it and nothing new to do so it is boring now.
Pity.
Doesn't apply to my wargames though. Not at all.
WW2 it lasted 6 years, you don't play a wargame once, and declare ok I beat the game IF you win.
Wargames generally feature endless replay. Ahhh wargames that is, I wasnt referring to Call of Duty or Battlefield. Great games, but they are just shooters, no wargamer is going to make the mistake of thinking you meant a wargame.
A 'wargame' is something like Panzer Corps from Slitherine and Matrix Games (google the name if you badly need pictures). The game has no finite playings. Play as often as you want, explore new strategies, not to mention playing a human opponent will tell you for real if you really have any real thinking skill at all.
I have a long list of wargames I have been buying since 97. Every single one of them has endless replaying value. They merely get more advanced as our hardware gets more capable. Try running Gary Grigsby's War in the East if you want to see if your computer can actually seriously data crunch (and not just display pretty pictures).
Online play? yeah I've played them online, it is not like you can't. Most play the AI though, which is not ideal but then that is everyone's hill to climb eh.
Broadband doesn't mean a damned thing to MY gaming.
But I can see how it might matter to the more pretty pictured dominated online games that have little difference between themselves and all demanding you process those pretty pictures as fast as possible.
We haven't needed a new MMO since EQ to some extent. It's all the same experience. Warcraft, or Starwars, or GW2 (even though I liked it, it's still the same thing to a point).
But the mainstream gamer, they just don't want 'substance', they just want a new set of pretty pictures. Maybe if you stopped always buying the latest dress, the companies wouldn't be shelling out the same schlock ad naseum.
Don't wait for broadband to get great too soon in North America though, the big ISPs simply don't see anything in it for them. They don't care about my wanting Netflix either. They just don't care at all. | |
| | iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 | Re: I kinda pity non wargaming mainstream gaming I'm more a fan of RTS myself. But I've done turn-based war games like you mention. It was just quite awhile ago. People's General and Steel Panthers before that. Too bad Ssi isn't around anymore. | |
|
 BootesPremium
join:2005-01-28
Palo Alto, CA | Eidos? I guess they still have Eidos doing some stuff behind the scenes. They were bought by Square Enix. Call of Duty is not an Eidos/Square Enix game, it's made and published by Activision. | |
| | | Broadband is holding us back. It's not just gaming, but electronic commerce, multimedia and everything online. For the plutocrat moneygrubbers and the bribed politicians that stroke them, high-priced barfbag networks are all that you peasants deserve!
Change that (which you can do if you think hard about it), and everything else will change too. | |
|  gatorkramNeed for SpeedPremium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
kudos:2 | Finger pointing It's funny how many people in here are actually being apologetic for the broadband providers, and instead pointing their fingers at the game developers.
What interests me most in this situation, is how much the gaming industry has pushed the hardware industry over the years.
Who knows how slow our computers would still be without this push.
What you only used to be able to do on very high end and expensive graphical workstations can now be done on a simple PC, for example.
If the gaming industry is saying broadband speeds and latency are holding them back, I tend to believe them.
If the situation were different, and say hardware makers were the bottleneck, would these same people here now be saying the game developers just need to make their games less demanding? I don't think so...
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What the heck is a GatorKram? »www.gatorkram.com | |
| Core0000Premium
join:2008-05-04
Somerset, KY Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
|  I concur
I play Halo:Reach multiplayer... one of my favorite game types is swat, it plainly says in the options menu of the game "Hey your upstream bandwidth sucks and may cause some problems"..
It doesn't mention anything about Latency, but that's a pain in the ass too a lot of the time.
And yes, its about 70% shit to 30% good games played ratio.. when my neighbor hood isn't on the connection, my games go pretty well.. I don't feel like I am shooting people and them not die in game. .. Or shoot people, they shoot me, and then they die, what a load of garbage!
Gaming to me is a big past time... I want to enjoy the multiplayer experience more.. To really do so I think I am going to have to end up moving to where fiber is being served (Chattanooga,TN looks to be the closest). But the idea of leaving behind family, kinda sucks.
Be nice to have real competition in my city where I live, so I could get great internet at an affordable price..
I'm a libertarian.. and normally I don't support Government involvement. But hell, government needs to either get completely out of the way.. (Ie when a community wants to start up their own broad band company, don't let incumbents get in the way legally) or they need to get fully involved and say "Hey, you sorry companies sitting on your asses, invest in fiber to the home, this year.. ) | |
| | | Latency I have no problem when playing games with my adsl2 connection. I'm on a short copper loop on a fast data path with very low latency I make my friends jealous who all use cable modem. Guess it comes down to where you live and how well the infrastructure is and I can see where games are going to be massive and latency could cause problems. | |
|  ctceoPremium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN | Reality Capitalism is holding speeds back, not latency and slow connections. | |
| | | | Re: Reality Capitalism? That was sarcasm, right? | |
| | | | said by ctceo:Capitalism is holding speeds back, not latency and slow connections.
so you really think latency doesn't effect online gaming? It's the single biggest factor between having a enjoyable online experience and one that sucks.Sure latency doesn't matter much in a game like wow but try playing a game like TTT2 online over a bad connection . Even 100ms latency can kill the game as it has just frame moves meaning you must hit the button at the exact frame that the previous move hits. Some combos also require very strict timing. Anyone that says latency doesn't suck for online gaming likely has never played anything besides solitaire online. | |
| | | ctceoPremium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN | Re: Reality And why do you have a bad connection? Capitalism. Because the company doesn't want to invest the time, resources and/or manpower to make your connection, well, not bad.
Keep going. | |
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