Gimped Skype release, AT&T TOS Changes Annoy AdvocatesWireless network neutrality debate set to get hotter in 2009... ( old news - 04:11PM Friday Apr 03 2009) tags: legal · competition · business · wireless · Op/Ed · legislation · net-neutralityTipped by funchords  AT&T today is causing quite a stir among consumer advocates, after the company changed their terms of service (TOS) fine print to (further) restrict streaming and other video services, while exempting their own video services. Robb Topolski, who came to fame by busting Comcast for their packet forgery practices in our forums, appears to have been the first to notice the changes. The text in bold below was added to the agreement: This means, by way of example only, that checking email, surfing the Internet, downloading legally acquired songs, and/or visiting corporate intranets is permitted, but downloading movies using P2P file sharing services, customer initiated redirection of television or other video or audio signals via any technology from a fixed location to a mobile device, web broadcasting, and/or for the operation of servers, telemetry devices and/or Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition devices is prohibited. Given their new DSL/3G offer, and the recent problems they've been having with people on 3G-connected laptops getting hammered by overage charges, they've also added additional references to overage fees. Concerned with the ever-increasing lockdown on the functionality of 3G networks, consumer group Free Press (with which Topolski is affiliated) wrote a new letter (pdf) to the FCC urging them to force wireless carriers to adhere to the FCC's network neutrality principles (pdf). Those principles dictate that consumers have the right to run any device or application on a broadband network, providing it doesn't hurt the network. The problem has been that these principles are not law, and they're barely even enforceable -- in part because carriers can argue that anything that consumes any amount of bandwidth harms the network, and therefore is subject to reasonable network management. While somewhat useless, companies like Skype have been trying to get these principles applied to wireless networks for some time. The hope of course is that it gives their lawyers a better shot at forcing open carrier networks. The issue came to the forefront again this week after Skype was released on the iPhone, but only worked via Wi-Fi -- not via AT&T's HSDPA network. AT&T's position on this is an obvious one -- the carrier isn't eager to cannibalize wireless voice minutes. Speaking to USAToday's Leslie Cauley, AT&T's top policy guru Jim Cicconi says AT&T " has every right" to not "facilitate" Skype, given they're a competitor just like Verizon. As a lawyer, you'll note Cicconi chooses his words carefully, suggesting that he's not blocking Skype functionality, he's just not marketing it. AT&T and Verizon spent the week at CTIA in Las Vegas touting the wonderful world of looming gadgets for 3G/4G networks. While there's a lot of lip service paid to network openness of late, actual moves on this front have been limited. Example one is Verizon's Open Development Initiative, which was announced in 2007 and was supposed to revolutionize the industry, though so far it has been about 95% PR and 5% substance. Don't expect things to change very quickly. Wireless carriers are currently living the dream: they have exactly the kind of business model in place they only wish was in place on terrestrial networks (not that they're not trying). Their market power allows them to box competitive threats out of the market, be they to voice or content revenue. Meanwhile, low caps have users paying steep overages on top of already very high monthly bandwidth costs, and with the amount of lobbying muscle they have on K-Street, they can pretty much ensure things will stay that way. It's an interesting battle, because it's so easy to see both sides of the argument when applied to wireless networks. On one side, shouldn't AT&T be allowed to defend their bread and butter voice revenues from free applications that reduce the price point of voice communications to zero? On the other hand, shouldn't consumers have the right to use any device and any application on a wireless broadband network, provided it doesn't truly harm the network (egregious bandwidth consumption, malware, spam)? Related:- Google, You're a Wireless Tease
- Verizon's Open Development Initiative? So Far It's A Joke
- Time Warner Cable: Let's Not Talk About Net Neutrality
- Is Verizon Considering Metered Billing?
- Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
- FCC Study: Open Access Lowers Prices, Improves Competition
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 |  |  iansltx
join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO | Re: AT&T also added no carrying unused bytes to a new month Holy crap, $100 per GB!?! Oh wait, Verizon is $256 per GB right? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  iansltx
join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO | Re: AT&T also added no carrying unused bytes to a new month Oh, thought it was $10 per 100MB. Never mind about that, ech. | |
|  |  |  |  |   raw War Eagle Premium join:2001-01-17 Pasadena, MD clubs:
| Re: AT&T also added no carrying unused bytes to a new month It is, but only on the 200MB plan.
said by ATT :
On the 200MB Data Connect Plan, once you exceed your 200MB allowance, you will be automatically charged $10 for an additional 100MB. However, if you have the 5GB plan (and practically anybody halfway intelligent will), it's the prices listed above, which translates to $49.15 for the same 100MB. | |
|   dadkins Can you do Blu? Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA 1 edit | Annoy? Hey! This is AT&T! Funneling your data straight to the NSA and reaming you at every point possible!
Woo Hoo!!!
Oh yeah, Kick Ass Robb! -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ | Re: Annoy? Shitty coverage where I live, shitty coverage everywhere, now they want to put draconian restrictions on what you can and can't do.
Fuck 'em. | |
|  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: Annoy? best thing you could do is find another carrier. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   d1gw33d
@comcast.net
| Re: Annoy? Right? I had Verizon for 14 years with no issue.. I honestly didn't even know what a dropped call was like. I made the reluctant jump for the iPhone 3G and I get dropped calls DAILY. I'm not in a huge market, but Fresno, CA is over 500,000 people and then some. It's a joke.
In my opinion the mobile space is much more ruthless and stifling and cares less about customer satisfaction than any caps and traffic shaping seen in the cable/landline area.
I mean how in the hell does a company get away with selling "unlimited" mobile internet access but issues a 5GB cap?
We're supposed to pay $60/mo for home internet access, another $35-40/mo for cripled mobile access, endure "peak time" limits on voice, complete ass rape on text messages and everythings cool? If complete blind greed wasn't the obvious forefront of these companies strategies maybe a service like Skype wouldn't even exist as the need for the innovation wouldn't be there in the 1st place. //end rant | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ 1 edit | Re: Annoy? Err yeah that used to be true.
Now we have Quick Check and Kohls.
It's sorta the middle of nowhere but even in some parts of NYC I've had problems with ATT coverage. | |
|  |  |  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | I suspect you're on a 2G blackberry. I had similar (garbled calls) issue on 2G in LosAngeles until I hacked the codec, and eventually got a 3g phone. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ
·PenTeleData
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VOIPo
·Vonage
| Re: Annoy? said by en102 :I suspect you're on a 2G blackberry. I had similar (garbled calls) issue on 2G in LosAngeles until I hacked the codec, and eventually got a 3g phone. It's an 8700 provided by the job. I suspect you're right, but Verizon with CDMA never had an issue in the years I've been with them. | |
|   maartena Stacked. Premium join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA | Really? Give me a connection and an IP address. I will decide for myself what to run accross it. Thank you. -- "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" | |
|  |   Cjaiceman Premium,MVM join:2004-10-12 Parker, CO
·Comcast Workplace
·Comcast
| Re: Really? said by maartena :Give me a connection and an IP address. I will decide for myself what to run accross it. Thank you. Exactly, and I have been doing this for sometime, like teathering to my PC on my PDA, which isn't supposed to work, but WMWiFiRouter works just as it should. Skype Beta works just fine and I have been using Skype just fine for sometime. Mobile IM, streaming video from ORB and youtube, it all works fine. -- Duct tape is like The Force it has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together | |
|  |  |  k1ll3rdr4g0n
join:2005-03-19 Homer Glen, IL
| Re: Really? said by Cjaiceman :said by maartena :Give me a connection and an IP address. I will decide for myself what to run accross it. Thank you. Exactly, and I have been doing this for sometime, like teathering to my PC on my PDA, which isn't supposed to work, but WMWiFiRouter works just as it should. Skype Beta works just fine and I have been using Skype just fine for sometime. Mobile IM, streaming video from ORB and youtube, it all works fine. The problem with tethering is that there is no "official" definition. I see tethering as using the "phone as a modem" and not using ICS thus creating a loop hole in the TOS. One of my beef with AT&T is that they killed the unlimited laptop connect plan because people were using it as a replacement for their home connection. Wait, what? One of their "A+" certified CSRs told me that they couldn't limit the customers, yet they impose limits all the time. The network engineers can't implement QOS? Where is all the money I am paying them going to? What are these people smoking, because obviously it is pretty good stuff?
Providers should not have the ability to impose exceptions on a connection. It should be all or nothing. For those who complain about the speed of 3G, its pretty damn fast. Try GPRS or EDGE and tell me that AT&T's 3G network is slow. Didn't think so. Oh well, until we can get someone in office who will actually slap these companies silly, the honest customers will continue to get reamed while the other people who have PDAs have a data plan that's for regular cell phones (15$ less). | |
|  |  |  |  |   morbo Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22 00000 clubs: | AT&T becoming more and more oppressive... AT&T is becoming more and more oppressive with their business practices. Caps on the way for U-Verse and their DSL products and now locking out applications from iPhone? | |
|  |  AVonGauss Premium,MVM join:2007-11-01 Boynton Beach, FL 1 edit | Re: AT&T becoming more and more oppressive... The change I believe affects more than just iPhone users, it applies to all wireless customers of AT&T Wireless including I believe data card users. Unfortunately, this is not a new characteristic for AT&T, its more of a multi-decade trend. | |
|  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| said by morbo :AT&T is becoming more and more oppressive with their business practices. Caps on the way for U-Verse and their DSL products and now locking out applications from iPhone? "Our network, our rights." | |
|  AVonGauss Premium,MVM join:2007-11-01 Boynton Beach, FL
| Stupid move... While I can understand and agree that AT&T would not want to facilitate the use of Skype on their network, unfortunately, this is a really stupid move. I am not for big government regulation, but this type of move does force the network neutrality issue back to the forefront. If you're providing a data network, you should not get to decide what does or does not go over it. | |
|  |   cornelius785_nli
@WPI.EDU
| Re: Stupid move... yeah i suppose. i can't blame a cellular phone carrier trying to block another phone carrier using 'their' phone and network. i'm not sure how to say it but, a cellular network is more aimed at making phone calls, not a general internet protal.
i'm not so sure about the net neutrality issue though. ATT is not simply providing access to the internet, but built (in way or another, considering the merger with cingular) a huge wireless network that they own and intend to be used to provide phone service by ATT. maybe this will signify a change in thinking of cellular networks, from solely phone with some niceties like internet to just a huge wireless internet portal. i'm sort of siding with ATT on this, but only weakly. | |
|  |  |   elios
join:2005-11-15 Springfield, MO | Re: Stupid move... the thing is you could of said that about dial up or DSL 10 years ago and look were we are now
its really only a matter of time but ATT and friends want to drag it out as long as they can and milk it for every last cent | |
|  Gilitar
join:2000-11-20 Mobile, AL | So tired of AT&T They have gotten to big for their pants once again. I'll be ditching my iPhone and AT&T crappy 3g network soon enough. | |
|   jmn1207 Premium join:2000-07-19 Reston, VA | No More Slingbox I guess AT&T is not the carrier to use if you plan on setting up a Slingbox for your smartphone. | |
|  |  |  |   banditws6 Shrinking Time and Distance
join:2001-08-18 Naples, FL
·Comcast
| Interestingly, Sling Media just submitted their SlingPlayer Mobile app for the iPhone to the App Store this past week.
Now that AT&T has "retracted" this TOS change and apologized, it makes me wonder if Dish (which owns Sling) was the one who complained the loudest? -- "I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent | |
|  JSRoman Premium join:2005-03-10 Callahan, FL
| Don't like where this is going. I got a feeling that this constant back in forth is going to result in there only be one service being provided by x company instead of voice, data and video. Companies are just going to give up and say why go thru this hassle blocking certain programs and just allow everything but now it is going to cost you an arm and a leg to get data services. -- »www.seabee.navy.mil | |
|   ninjatutle Premium
join:2006-01-02 San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Slingbox "customer initiated redirection of television or other video or audio signals via any technology from a fixed location to a mobile device"
Is this a response to that idiot on the cruise ship? »Yet Another Ridiculous 3G Bill
I have a slingbox and hava. No way would I use it with my 5GB cap. Roughly 500MB or so for an hour.
Sprint has this same wording in their contract. Everyone who was on Sprint still used it anyways. I used to stream for hours a day a few times a week back when I was on Sprint and they were unlimited muahahaha. But now they have the last laugh and capped everyone  | |
|  |   insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN
| Re: Slingbox said by ninjatutle :I have a slingbox and hava. No way would I use it with my 5GB cap. Roughly 500MB or so for an hour. Unless you wanted to watch a game and was willing to use that bandwidth to watch it. 1.5gb to watch a game clearly falls under your 5gb cap. | |
|   ptrowski Got Helix? Premium join:2005-03-14 Putnam, CT clubs: | Out of the contract? So since AT&T changed their TOS I assume people can call and cancel without an ETF? | |
|  |  See 8 replies to this post | |
  BillRoland Premium join:2001-01-21 Ocala, FL clubs:
·Cox HSI
1 edit | May indicate another problem All these carriers putting caps and restrictions on their 3G services may indicate another problem I've been predicting: neither EVDO nor HSPA can scale to cope with heavy demand. I see it all the time on Sprint EVDO Rev A here where I live, the laptop card slows to 56Kbps speeds at certain points of the day, despite the signal being strong. -- "Don't steal. The government hates competition." Beyond AM. Beyond FM. XM | |
|  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
1 edit | Re: May indicate another problem said by BillRoland :All these carriers putting caps and restrictions on their 3G services may indicate another problem I've been predicting: neither EVDO nor HSPA can scale to cope with heavy demand. I see it all the time on Sprint EVDO Rev A here where I live, the laptop card slows to 56Kbps speeds at certain points of the day, despite the signal being strong. EVDO is 2 mbps per "system" or channel. Most areas only run 1 EVDO channel, all the others are for 2G Voice and Express Network/Vision/1x.
And that 2mbps is being shared among all the users on the tower (it might be actually 4 or 6 mbps for the whole tower because of sectoring). EVDO is really a trinket, gimick toy. Since day one it could NEVER be a replacement for the usage demands of Voice. Cellphone voice service runs at 9.6k/bbps, cutting edge speed in 1987  | |
|  expert007
join:2006-01-10 Buffalo, NY | Data is what we determine to be data. Guess I take back the datacard tomorrow next week. Can you imagine if telcos told us that we could only make calls at certain times during the day? Sorry AT+T, you're really just not worth the hassle.Much too much of that lately. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   TScheisskopf World News Trust
join:2005-02-13 Belvidere, NJ
·Sprint Broadband D..
| Re: What a way to run a railroad. said by funchords :said by Mr Matt :  Yes the Broadband ISP's are running their business the same way the Railroad Magnates ran their business in the mid 1800's. This seems like an apt comparison. Wait, who is that I hear in the back of the room? Why it's Georges! Georges Santayana! What did you say, Georges? Could you speak a little louder? Yes, I know, you are dead and whatnot and it's hard to raise your voice much higher, but give it a try. Oh. Ok.
Georges said "At the risk of repeating myself: Those that forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them".
He always says that. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC | Re: What a way to run a railroad. If true, they're out of touch with their customers. | |
|  |  |  |  |  wierdo
join:2001-02-16 Tulsa, OK
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
| Re: What a way to run a railroad. said by funchords :If true, they're out of touch with their customers. Their customers (for this service) are not who you think they are.
Additionally, customers have not yet figured out a way to trump physics and information theory. When they do, I guarantee all the wireless carriers will happily replace all the landline broadband connections they can. -- It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
|  |  |  djeremy
join:2004-07-12 San Francisco, CA | Re: Udated TOS removed i saw that too. hopefully they felt the customer backlash. | |
|   dogtech Let Us Build It
join:2002-06-08 Toledo, OH 1 edit | That didn't last long..... Looks like they already retracted their TOS again. Engadget has a story now that they changed it back to what it was.
www.engadget.com | |
|  |  |   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ | Re: AT&T has retracted this and apologized! I guess alot of people called to cancel, and told them that there would be NO ETF, I bet they crapped their pants. | |
|  |  expert007
join:2006-01-10 Buffalo, NY
| I think I'll change the terms of my contract with them now and when they call me asking where my payment is, I'll just say "My wife and I changed our TOS, and you're only getting 50% of what I signed for when I bought".
While I'm at it, I'm going to start my own 3G network, supply every tower with a single 56K channel, and when anyone tries to do anything that "harms the network", I'll just give em the boot. | |
|  |  |  |  |  expert007
join:2006-01-10 Buffalo, NY
| Re: I think I'll change the terms of my contract with them now If it were 1999, I'd have raised $10 million in VC funds with that business model already. So there.  | |
|  |  |   nope
@charter.com
| said by Fox McCloud :and actually on the 50% thing, they own the network so they make the rules in the contract and you must abide by them...failing to pay the full amount would be a breach of the original contract you signed. the contract is between two parties. one party cannot change the rules in the middle (as at&t as attempting to do here) without the other party being allowed to EXIT the contract without penalty.
so while this guy couldn't send in 50% payment, he could exit his contract without any early termination fees. | |
|   tos_doa
@optonline.net | not worth the $$ Slippery slope.. it is well past time for nonsense such as this to cost major corporations such as Comcast, Time Warner Cable and AT&T it's customer base!! Start canceling NOW! Show these companies your not that stupid anymore! | |
|   signmeuptoo Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast Premium join:2001-11-22 LOSTinSpace clubs:  | I take exception to them doing this quietly What is going to happen to all those people who don't know about this change, are they going to have to pay hundreds of dollars in bills? If ATT is doing this quietly, shame on them! | |
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